Taylor Jenkins Reid, MALIBU RISING: A Novel
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:37]Taylor Jenkins Reid is The New York Times best-selling author of Malibu Rising, Daisy Jones,
[0:44]and The Six, The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, and other novels.
[0:48]She currently lives in Los Angeles with her husband and their daughter.
[0:51]Welcome Taylor, thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Malibu Rising.
[0:56]Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited.
[0:58]So funny, I stayed up. I had read most of this a couple weeks ago.
[1:02]It kept me company the day that my kids went to my ex-husband, and I was so sad,
[1:07]and all I wanted to do was get into bed and read something good, and I picked this up,
[1:10]I was like, everybody's raving about this fuck, and I had this interview coming up.
[1:13]And it totally did the trick.
[1:15]Oh, good.
[1:16]So we just went, you like kept me company in a very dark moment of the summer.
[1:19]I am honored to have had the opportunity.
[1:23]Thank you.
[1:24]And then I finished it last night, and it kept me up until like, you know, I don't know,
[1:30]130 in the morning, which I never do, because I read like eight books a week or something crazy,
[1:34]and I am very good with my time, and anyway, I was like, I cannot skim a word.
[1:38]Like, I want every word of this fuck.
[1:40]Oh, thank you.
[1:42]My husband was like, that's the book of the summer, you know?
[1:44]I'm like, I know, I've had it everywhere we've gone, so anyway, that's my first
[1:48]personal story about it.
[1:49]Okay, for people who don't know what Malbe rising is about, what am I telling a little bit about it,
[1:55]and also how you came up with this, especially after Daisy Johnson, the six.
[2:00]Yeah.
[2:00]So Malbe rising is the story of the Riva family.
[2:03]They are four adult siblings, surfers, throwing a party at the end of August in 1983 in Malbe.
[2:12]And the book starts at 7am and takes you hour by hour through a day in the life of this family,
[2:21]going back in time to their parents' marriage to show you all the long simmering tensions
[2:28]in this family.
[2:29]And then as the party starts, some of these tensions rise to the surface,
[2:36]and by the end of the night, everything has turned into complete chaos.
[2:40]So Malbe rising is the story of that day.
[2:43]And I can't even write it in a couple of different ways.
[2:47]I had a few different ideas of things that I wanted to write about, and I had a moment where I
[2:51]realized that all of these things could come together and sort of coalesce into one novel.
[2:57]And so the elements where I really wanted to write about siblings, I wanted to write about
[3:03]kids who have sort of had to raise themselves and how they bonded together,
[3:09]how they banded together and bonded, I should say, through this sort of, you know, trauma
[3:15]of having to, of losing both of their parents in different ways.
[3:18]And then I also wanted to write about famous children, because I've been writing about
[3:23]fame for a while, and one of the things that I was interested in is, you know, two of my previous
[3:27]characters, Evelyn Hugo and Daisy Jones, are women that know what they want, and they're very
[3:35]serious about going after it. I'll be it in different ways. And what they want is the attention
[3:42]of the world. And I thought, well, what is it like when you have the attention of the world,
[3:49]but you didn't seek it out, and you don't necessarily want it? It was something that was
[3:54]chosen for you. And so those pieces came together for me, and I thought, well, what if it wasn't
[4:01]what it was a famous father that left you? How would that be different than the experience of
[4:09]never seeing your father again? What if you see him on billboards and you hear his music on the
[4:14]radio, but know that he's not there for you? What would that feel like? And so that's when I knew
[4:21]I was like, well, I already have a famous character. I have a character who is famous
[4:26]who would leave his kids. And that's Mick Riva. I had written about Mick Riva and the seven
[4:31]husbands of Evelyn Hugo, and he appears again in Daisy Jones very briefly. And I thought, well,
[4:35]there you go. I mean, there's your answer. That's the guy, that's the guy who would leave his kids.
[4:41]And then I was like, okay, well, if it's Mick Riva, then, you know, that brings us into
[4:46]he probably had kids around this time and now we're into the 80s, which I had wanted to write about,
[4:51]and I really wanted to write about the beach. And so all of it came together and I thought,
[4:57]let's just set a rager in Malibu in 1983 and let Mick Riva's children, you know, get through
[5:05]all of their their tension and agida in one night. Wow. That's so interesting that that's
[5:12]how it came about. I love that. And also what you said about, you know, raising kids, raising
[5:17]themselves essentially. I mean, I feel like Nina, your character, Nina is just so, I mean,
[5:23]they're all so real. But I feel like the issues that she's struggling with and how we watch her
[5:28]over time, sort of come to terms of that and how you have that arc of her characters. I mean,
[5:33]it's amazing. It's really, and, you know, I feel like the positioning of the book is like,
[5:38]it's a rager in Malibu. Yes, yes, of course, obviously. But it's like, there's so much,
[5:43]it's so much deeper. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I do, I look, I try very hard to make
[5:49]my books really fun. And so I appreciate what people think they're fun. But I also work really
[5:54]hard to make sure that they are saying something and that they have complexity to them and that
[5:58]there's something to sink your teeth into. And so thank you for seeing that. No, of course. I mean,
[6:04]some of these issues, particularly, I feel so attached to Nina's mom, June, I feel like you
[6:10]like, I want her to come back. I don't know if you're going to do anything. I'm not that she can
[6:13]well, anyway, just that they were so lifelike and they each had something that they kind of taught
[6:19]the reader in the end. I don't know. So when you're coming up with your characters,
[6:24]fiction to me, I'm just so impressed by novelists and the ability to, you know, craft people out of
[6:31]thin air and make them just so realistic. And especially these ones who I could literally see,
[6:36]like, I can't wait for the movie. But I feel like I just watched it in my head already.
[6:40]It was like 12 hours long and I loved it and it was great. So, you know,
[6:45]we'll have to compete with that, my own footage. But when you're creating your characters,
[6:49]like, what is your secret? Like, how is it? How do you do it? Is it? I was trying to analyze it
[6:55]as I read. Is it the details? Is it the backstory? And when you learn the backstory, is it
[6:59]the details? Like, little things? Is it the big? Like, what is it? How you see them when they
[7:05]interact with other people that gives away the most? Because I feel like that always shows us so
[7:09]much. I don't know. Yeah. I, I, you know, the most succinct answer to your question is I don't
[7:15]know. I think what it is for me is that certainly lately, I spend a lot of time
[7:23]doing research on my novels at the very beginning of my process. And during that period of time,
[7:30]I'm not writing, but I'm thinking constantly, you know, you come across a fact, oh, would my
[7:35]character do that or not do that? And by the end of that period of time, I know them. I really
[7:43]feel like they live somewhere in my head. I know them and I know what they would do and what they
[7:48]wouldn't do. And so by the time I get to writing, it's funny. I think sometimes there are
[7:54]two different types of writers. And I mean, I've totally made up this theory and I have no evidence
[8:01]back it up. But, but I think sometimes there are people who they think a sentence and then they
[8:08]think that's a good sentence and then they type it. And for me, that whole process is not happening.
[8:16]I don't know what I'm about to type before I type it. It's going like directly from like my
[8:22]reptilian brain into my fingers. And it's like totally bypassing my frontal lobe. And so there
[8:27]are times when something will reveal itself as I'm typing. And I'll go, oh, okay, I didn't know
[8:33]that I knew this about them. I think it's just an innate sense that I have for who these people
[8:40]are. They show up pretty fully formed for me. And I try to just get as close to the truth of them as
[8:45]I can on a page. And so I really appreciate you saying that they come to life for you because they
[8:51]they come to life for me very, very much. June, in particular, I know her. I feel her. And then
[8:58]in turn, you know, it's I pretty much know the things that that the large things that are going
[9:04]to happen in a novel. But there are times when I buy somebody else, you know, my husband is my
[9:11]first reader of my agent and my editor. I have to be pushed to make some of the really terrible
[9:17]things happen because I've come to love them so much. And it's hard for me. I've cried multiple
[9:23]times in like notes meetings, not because I was bothered by the note, but because I was like,
[9:28]oh, no, you're right about this note. And now I have to go do this sad thing to this person
[9:34]that I care about. So they're very real to me. And I hope that needs their real on the page.
[9:38]Wow. You had this interesting line. I also love the character kit. I mean, I love
[9:43]all your characters, honestly. But as she's sort of struggling and as she puts on the outfit
[9:48]and decides on, you know, who she wants to be for that party, you wrote dressed as she was,
[9:53]she could feel a difference in how the rooms she entered made space for her. She was still trying
[9:57]trying to figure out how she felt about it.
[10:00]I just love that line. Tell me about that line. I just loved it.
[10:04]Yeah. Well, what I think is really interesting about when we're meeting Kit in this particular
[10:09]time in her life is that she is curious about finding out more about herself. She's changing
[10:19]things up. She's going to dress a little bit differently. She's going to try to behave
[10:23]a little bit differently. The way that she's choosing to dress a behave is a little bit more
[10:29]more traditional. It's a more, we'll say it's a stricter definition of femininity
[10:35]that she's going to show a little skin. She's going to be conventionally attractive,
[10:39]and she's going to do that. Look, I have had gender presentations are really interesting
[10:45]thing to me. My whole life, there was always a subtext to a lot of my conversations with people
[10:51]where it felt like I wasn't being feminine enough. The way that I was speaking was a particularly
[10:55]feminine, the way I was dressing was a particularly feminine, and it bothered people, and I
[11:00]sort of felt like, well, I mean, I was very influenced by bothering people. I don't want to bother
[11:05]people, and so it was like, okay, let me try this not. Okay, this works, but I still don't know
[11:13]if it's me. Over time, I'm in my 30s now, and I've been able to adopt a much stronger sense
[11:19]of self and a feeling of like, oh, I could be whatever I want any particular day, and so I'll be
[11:24]this one day and something else another day. But when you're a teenager or somebody like Kit,
[11:27]who's, you know, 2021, she's trying on a new self, and she's certainly getting attention for it,
[11:33]but is it who she is? She's not sure. And so Kit is someone I just have a lot of affection for. She's
[11:41]she's working through some pretty big questions that night, and I don't even think she knows
[11:46]what she's setting into motion when she does it. So true. I feel like this whole thing, though, of
[11:52]fame and coming into room and how you're perceived by others, that's really what the whole
[11:57]thing is almost about in a way too. The difference is between how you see yourself and how
[12:02]they're all thinking of you and what people want you to be. You know, I mean, people want
[12:07]Nina to be something other than what she is, and people want Kit to be something other than what
[12:11]she is. And I think, you know, look, it's the way all of us function through life is societal
[12:17]expectations versus what's in our heart, right? But, but for women, we're just given a lot less
[12:22]leeway on societal expectations. And so I find their struggle between what they're being
[12:30]asked to perform, or what they need to perform in order to get what they want versus what they
[12:37]want to do on their own, what their heart is telling them to do, both of them find more concrete
[12:44]answers to those questions. And I think they intend to. And how do you feel about, I mean, Daisy Jones
[12:50]was such a huge hit, right? And now, of course, this is another huge hit. And so I'm sure you're
[12:54]grappling with these issues of fame yourself as you're writing them in your characters. Like,
[12:59]how are you thinking about that for you? Like, are you enjoying this? Is it, I mean, in a way
[13:04]when you're writing, you want it, but do you want this? I mean, yeah, you know, it's interesting,
[13:10]and it's funny, because it's a, it's a question that I've been presented with a few times with a
[13:14]course of releasing this book. And my answer keeps changing. And I think part of that is because
[13:20]I mean, my initial instincts in being asked that question every single time is too, is too
[13:25]bad at a way as quickly as possible. And to say, I'm not famous, there's nothing famous about
[13:29]me. I'm an author. I'm just writing stories. Nobody needs me interested in me. But, but it does at
[13:34]some point get a little naive and insincere, right? Like, I, I have the ability to get my story to
[13:42]a much wider audience than I certainly was at the beginning of my career and that most people
[13:48]have the opportunity to do and to deny that is a little bit silly. But at the same time, I
[13:54]really do grapple with, I am, I am not well suited to performance. And so when you're not well
[14:02]suited to it, what does the performance look like? Because everything is a performance, right? Like,
[14:06]I mean, even your day-to-day life and your interactions with the person on the street,
[14:11]you know, we live two lives. We live our inner life and then we live the life that we show people
[14:16]with Instagram, with, you know, it's as simple as, you know, in the United States, somebody says,
[14:22]oh, how are you? And you go, good, good, how are you? And it's like, it's totally relevant to
[14:26]how your day's actually going, right? We're just putting on the performance. Oh, my day's going,
[14:30]well, how's your day going? So I'm not, I'm not well suited to the performance piece. And I don't
[14:36]have an answer yet on how I feel about it. There's definitely growing pains. It's definitely hard for
[14:41]me to understand. You know, I, I released a thing on my Instagram, but anyone wants to sign
[14:46]copies called these a bookstore here in LA and all the over-and-sign them for you. And I thought,
[14:55]you know, I was like, maybe 30 people would call. And it just turned out to be much, much
[15:01]bigger. And that's hard for me to understand. I still don't totally understand it. So I'm grappling
[15:07]with that. How many, how many people? I think I had about 500 in the first two weeks. And wow,
[15:13]it's a lovely, lovely thing to have happen. But I just, I bet you an adjustment for me. I mean,
[15:20]look, my first book came out. Nobody, you know, I had a very small loyal fan base that was mostly
[15:28]the copies of my mother-in-law bought, you know, and so, so I know that not every book gets that
[15:34]kind of attention. And so I'm appreciative for it every single time. Every year that shows up,
[15:39]buys a book, reads it at the library. I know not every author gets that. So I am very, very appreciative.
[15:45]And I didn't mean to ask you now. I feel ridiculous. Like, I'm sorry to ask you questions. You
[15:49]get all the time. Like, no, I'm sorry. No, that's, that is not at all. And what I, what I meant is that
[15:54]it, it went, my work lends itself to that question. And, and I wish that I had a more concrete answer.
[16:03]But it's, I think your, I think your answer is how you feel. And that's okay. I mean,
[16:08]not everything is totally crystallized while you're going through it. Yeah. I mean, that's well put.
[16:14]Yeah. I think, I think you're getting me in the middle of, I'm in the chrysalis right now.
[16:20]And I'm like trying to report on how it looks in here, you know, is sort of, I don't know,
[16:26]I don't know how I will change. But I can tell that I will.
[16:30]So back to it, you're being the reader for your, your husband being your first reader.
[16:34]Did you read it out loud to him or do you, does he read it himself? Oh, no, he reads all, he's the
[16:39]first person that reads, I mean, everything are right. He's a writer too. He's a screenwriter. And so
[16:44]he reads everything that I write. And I have learned, you know, I'm, I'm, I just finished my
[16:50]eighth book. I have learned not to sit over him or be in the same room when he is reading.
[16:56]Because I used to be like, like I'd seen him like smile or she can say, like, what line are you at?
[17:00]What, what are you saying? And now I just handed over to him and I'm like, okay, I need this
[17:05]by Monday. And, you know, and let him do his thing. And he's phenomenal at story. It really
[17:12]incredible at structure. And so I benefit greatly from both his encouragement and his hard
[17:21]truths. He's come to me a few times over the years. And I remember with one book in particular,
[17:26]he, he was like, it's not, it's not good enough. When I was like, okay, I'll try again, you know,
[17:32]I could see him, you know, he, he shows up for me in the way that a true true partner does,
[17:39]which is to say that like, he's not going to lie to me. And, and he's going to tell me the
[17:44]hard truth when I need to hear it. And so I trust everything that he says. And do you do the same
[17:49]for his work? I do, although he needs me less. He breaks a lot of stories. I work on basically
[17:56]one book over the course of a year, most likely two years. So he'll read the same book like two or
[18:01]three times. My husband's breaking screenplay is like, I mean, he probably does like 10 stories a year.
[18:09]And so sometimes he'll, he'll bring me in. And then he needs like character work and,
[18:14]and, or like he has a final draft of something. But I think over the years, he needs me less
[18:20]now than I need him. So he's got the power in this relationship on that.
[18:27]Are you ever going to, are you going to collaborate? Aren't we have? Yeah. Yeah. We've written
[18:31]some screenplays together. We adapted my book, one true loves were in the process of actually
[18:37]working on a new draft of that because it's scheduled to shoot next month. So yeah, it's,
[18:42]it's fun to, to work with them. He's just very talented. I mean, I'm in good hands and only
[18:48]have to do half the work that way. And you were so nice to, you know, thank him and everybody
[18:55]for taking care of your daughter. Yeah. So yeah. No, I, it's hard getting stuff done. It's like
[19:01]really hard. It's hard getting stuff done. And once I had a kid, I just realized the amount of labor
[19:09]that is required in order to raise a child, the way you have to rearrange your entire life around
[19:15]it. And I want to be very clear with people because they may see on Instagram. It's like,
[19:21]oh, me and my, you know, I'm talking about my cute little kid and here are the books that I'm writing.
[19:26]And I know for me, I look at other moms and I'm like, how are you doing that? Like, I don't have
[19:31]time to do everything you're doing. How are you doing it? And I just want to be really clear. Like,
[19:35]I'm doing it with help. You know, I have a husband who, you know, actively raises his daughter
[19:42]up as with her, you know, 50% of not more of the time. I have, you know, obviously now
[19:48]back to having a school system that that helps. I have in-laws that watch her. I have, you know,
[19:54]people I had nannies and babies that are, you know, might have helped. And I think that's important.
[19:58]I personally want to be trans.
[20:00]care about that. Yeah. I couldn't do anything I do. I mean, right now I have like seven
[20:04]kids in the other room. I'm not even kidding. But I also have my in-laws and a babysitter
[20:11]and my husband. And you know, I hear the screams that I know I can do this. Exactly. Exactly.
[20:18]And it takes a village and we can't do it. I mean, there are people that are doing it on their own.
[20:22]And I know I know I have so much results. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I have so much respect for the
[20:28]people. My mom did it on her own for a long time. And you know, I just have I have a lot of
[20:34]respect for it. And I also want to be transparent about the support that I do have. Because I think
[20:38]sometimes we make it invisible. And then when we look at it from, you know, on Instagram or Facebook
[20:45]or whatever, you know, it's like, how are they managing to do all of that in one day? And how did
[20:52]did she bake that cake? I'm so tired. You know? Yeah. So that's my soapbox that I will get on
[20:59]for me personally. It's just wanting to talk more about that. Interesting. I hope now I'm like
[21:04]rethinking my Instagram. I don't think I make it seem like I don't have help. I doubt that you do.
[21:09]But also I don't put like my family members on my Instagram. So it's like, I'm not sitting here
[21:14]going like, Oh, here's the nanny. Oh, here's my babysitter and like showing the photo of them.
[21:19]It's more just like when you have an opportunity to talk about how you get worked out or who to
[21:22]think. You know, for me, it's like, let me let me think to people that that make the room for me
[21:29]to do this. Yeah. Of course, I'm now like, you know, you say so that you know, and I'm like, oh,
[21:33]just having I'm doing something wrong. See, nothing to do with me. I'm so sorry. But no, I know,
[21:38]but I do the exact same thing. That's what I mean. Like when I look at women's Instagram's right,
[21:42]look at even, you know, parenthood is not just a female thing, but mothers are are just super
[21:47]highly charged this idea of motherhood and how to be a good mother and we when our society defines
[21:52]women by it so much that I'm very receptive to like, I'll be on Instagram. And I'll be like,
[21:57]well, her entire spice rack is all fresh spices. And mine is not. And how did she do that? You know,
[22:06]like, I just, I'm kind of very susceptible to like, somebody's just doing their own thing,
[22:10]but I'm thinking about how it reflects on me. I mean, we all are.
[22:13]Okay, you have to check out my Instagram and tell me if I'm coming across as like,
[22:17]you know, as trying to do it all and like, like that, I'm just, I assure you, I'm not judging
[22:25]anybody else. I'm judging myself so much. I have no time to judge anyone. Yeah, exactly.
[22:33]No, I feel that way too. And everybody's like posting all the workout classes and the like,
[22:37]oh, yeah, everybody's so fit. And anyway, I'm just like, okay, well, you know what,
[22:42]I got a lot of stuff today. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway, so your, your most recent book,
[22:49]what is that about the one you just finished? Well, I, you know, mom's the word. I just,
[22:55]I just finished it. I don't know when it's going to come out. It is basically, I see the seven
[23:00]husband's Evelyn. He though Daisy Jones and the six Malva rising and this next one as sort of a
[23:05]quartet that there are four books about women in the public eye during various decades and
[23:11]different sort of scenes in American culture in the second half of the 20th century. And so,
[23:19]you know, I've given some clues here and there about, you know, a little bit of what it would be
[23:26]about. The biggest thing I've said is just that it will take place in the 90s. We've had Evelyn
[23:31]he go in the 60s, Daisy Jones in the 70s, Malva rising the 80s and now we're going to go to the 90s.
[23:35]And then once, you know, and I have, I, you know, I have a few more rounds of stuff to do on that
[23:40]copy it and things like that. But once that book is, is sealed, I'm going to start fresh again.
[23:47]I'm going to go in a different direction and I have some ideas of what that will be. I'm not totally
[23:52]sure yet, but I want to go back to the drawing board and, and come up with an area of the world that
[23:59]I have more to say about. How about that? And do you do all your work at home? Where do you
[24:04]usually have to work? Yeah, I like to work at home. I need silence. I really need, I need it to be
[24:10]quiet. And also I'm old now. And so I had like purple tunnel, you know, and I need like my
[24:15]nails and my keyboard. Otherwise, my wrist starts aching. You know, I have the same thing. I'm
[24:20]pretending it's not carpal tunnel, but it gets like all swollen in here. Is that what happens to
[24:24]you? Yeah, mine just aches like my wrist aches. Yeah. And in my shoulder. Yeah, it's just a bad,
[24:31]it's a bad setup. But so I'm at home at my desk working and it gives me a strong sense of
[24:40]you know, this is, I feel very centered here at my desk and I can focus. Now, when my kid is home,
[24:47]I guess she's been pulled out of school for COVID or something, then it's very difficult to get
[24:52]any work done. But I still stay here and just put in some white noise headphones and keep going.
[24:59]Awesome. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? I do write more. I think I, at the beginning of my
[25:07]career was not reading or writing as much as I later ended up doing. And the more that I wrote,
[25:15]the better I got. I think if you just write and write and write, if you just write one thing
[25:20]from beginning to end, if you have a short story idea, you have a novel idea, you have an essay,
[25:24]you want to write. Just finish it. The joy of finishing it will be enough, I think, to power you
[25:32]through to the next one. There's that sense of satisfaction when you just finish something.
[25:37]And I think the more you write, the better you get and the more you read, the more where you are
[25:43]of, you know, your place in the larger world that you're writing about.
[25:49]I love that. That's great. Taylor, thank you so much. This has been so fun. I can't wait for your
[25:55]next installment of the quartet. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been so fun.
[26:00]Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. All right. Great.
[26:04]All right. Have a great time. Okay. Bye. Okay. Bye-bye.
[26:08]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[26:12]forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:17]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[26:22]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the
[26:27]Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[26:31]now trim music.