Honorée Fanonne Jeffers, THE LOVE SONGS OF W.E.B. DU BOIS: A Novel

[1:08]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Libby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. I had such a nice time recording my podcast with Honore Fanon Jeffers. We I don't know. We just had the best time. Anyway, she's the author of The Love Songs of W. E. B. Du Bois. She is a fiction writer, poet, and essayist, and is the author of five poetry volumes and has published writing in The Fire This Time, Kenyon Review, where she's a critic at large, Iowa Review, and more. For her latest volume of poetry, The Age of Phyllis, she was long listed for a National Book Award and was a finalist for the Los Angeles Times Book Award and the PENN Volker Award for Poetry Collection. Honore was recently named the winner of the twenty twenty one United States Artists Fellowship and the NAACP Image Award. She was one of a handful of authors highlighted in the recent AVA Buzz Panel. Jeffers teaches creative writing and literature at the University of Oklahoma. Welcome, Honore. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss the love songs of W. E. B. Du Bois. Okay. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. First of all, I just feel like I should say congratulations because your novel was this sweeping epic of a family over time, interspersed with all these other sort of historical allegories, scenes, like quotes for a masterful 700 pages. Bravo. Let me just start with that.

[3:07]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Thank you so much. I did my best.

[3:11]Zibby Owens: You did your best. Oh, my gosh. And you come from the poetry world, all these awards and accolades and everything. Why how did this book come to be?

[3:22]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, you know, I've always written little stories from the time that I was a little girl. And then when I decided, you know, that I was going to take the leap and become a, you know, real, quote, unquote, real writer. Right? Because that was back when I thought you can only be a real writer if you publish. But now I just feel like it's different. You know? If you do it for yourself, it's fine. Remembering Emily Dickinson didn't publish anything in her lifetime, and we worship her. But I'm a poet, and I went to graduate school to train for poetry. And while I was there, even though it was in the Deep South, it was in Alabama, everybody was from the North or from California or whatever. We didn't have any southern teachers, any of that. So I was lonely. And so I just started writing these little stories about that reminded me of my childhood, but not taking anybody's real life because you don't wanna get sued. But also but also, I just don't know if it's ethical to do that. Right? And so I started writing little stories, and then it just, you know, took off from there. Oh my gosh. Wow. Years later.

[4:46]Zibby Owens: Well, you created your main character, Ailey, who I just felt so attached to after you took us through so much of her life. And, you know, when all these things started happening to her and her grief and like Law and Lydia and all this stuff in her I mean, I just feel like you just took us on such an emotional roller coaster with the story. And I just wanted to read, if I could, just one of these scenes about Lydia and some quotes and everything, if that's okay, and just a little piece. Yes. Of course. And so you wrote, and my mother wrote to me and Lydia is, like, my favorite character, I guess. But anyway, and my mother wrote to me about Lydia. Was she dead? And if so, shouldn't she feel it inside? Something ripping her open to steal her child's soul? But that hadn't but that feeling hadn't occurred, and not knowing what had happened to my sister was so hard. And then later you say, yet Lydia's fall was a mystery to her family. A girl like her, provided with every necessity, a mother and father, plenty of love, educated at college and on her way to becoming a social worker. A good girl like that. What had gone wrong? And when Lydia reflected on her life, meditated on it the way Elder Beasley at Red Mound told his flock that they should meditate on Jesus, think about his suffering, how he toted the troubles of the world so the rest of human beings didn't have to, Lydia couldn't have told you how she had ended up in the thrall of a white rock that looked harmless.

[6:07]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: So good. I could just carry you everywhere with me when you did it. That was beautiful.

[6:15]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Yours was beautiful. Amazing. There's another I don't wanna give too much away, but there's one more I wanna treat, but I don't have to. Keep going. Yes? You you do you. I'll do me? Gray. This is coming from Uncle Root. I know this is when she's talking about Lydia, but I know that's the way I felt about my mother, Ailey. She died and left me when I was just a little boy, and for years I blamed myself. If I could have taken her away from this farm, from my father, from all this racism and oppression, she might not have caught influenza. That frustration will probably be with me until the moment I leave this earth. But once she was gone, it took me years to see that I had to live for the both of us because she loved me so much. Like, Lydia loved you. Anybody could see that, Ailey. She was crazy about you. She probably loved you more than even I do, and I love you very, very much. And that's why you have to carry on, Ailey. Wherever Lydia is, she's asking that of you. She wants that for you. Okay. I'm about to

[7:07]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: cry. Aw. You know, you get attached to these characters. You know? They feel real. They are real in your imagination. And so, I mean, I'm not being phony. It's like I'm tearing up, you know, because I love these people. They kept me company in some of the most loneliest times of my life. You know?

[7:34]Zibby Owens: Well, you can tell your affection for them. Oh, sorry.

[7:39]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: I'm sorry, and I didn't bring any tissue, and somebody sent me this t shirt, and I've got on foundation, so I don't want to put it off there or something like that. Have one of the black dresses behind you, you know? No one will ever know.

[7:52]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Well, the way that you develop the characters and just all the stuff they went through, it's a lot. There's a lot of emotion and a lot of history imbued in each character. And I don't know. Tell me about, like, just how it feels now, how it feels having these characters sort of fly into the world and enter into everyone else's consciousness.

[8:14]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, it's a little scary, you know, because people always think when an author writes a book that they're just kinda, you know, putting flesh on their own relatives or someone that they know or their own life. So that's a little scary because it's not my own life. And, you know, and I don't want people sort of looking in my family and saying, who's Lydia? Who's Coco? Who's uncle Ruth? Who's Belle, etcetera. Right? But at the same time, I really want people to to it's not my family, but the vibe is how I grew up. Mhmm. You know? I spent my summers in my mother's hometown, Eatonton, Georgia, which is this little teeny weeny town. At the time, there were 3,000 people there. So it was really like a small college almost. You know, everybody knew everybody. Everybody was in everybody's business. You know? It's a you know, there was gossip. You know, people would just stop by my grandma's house. Nobody ever called. They just called through the screen. Hey, y'all. You know? So I just kinda want people to feel what I feel because that time is gone now. Mhmm. You know? It's not the same. You know? After my grandmother died, I remember coming back to the house. The house has been sold now, which is devastating. But it wasn't in the country. She lived in town. Town as it were. You know? Because it was so teeny. Right? And I remember there were there were guys standing on the corner of my grandmother's yard selling drugs. And I thought, oh, if grandma was still alive, she would go out there and give those boys a peace of mind. She wasn't scared of anybody. And so, you know, that whole time is gone, the home training, where we don't assume that we can call people by their first names. Right? We say miss. If you don't know their last name, you say, you know, miss Betty or miss, you know, Diane or whatever. That time is gone. And so I wanted to give people,

[10:38]Zibby Owens: you know, you know, a feel for how I grew up. Wow. Well, not to make any leaps, but the character of Gandhi and what he does to the girls, did you go through something? You don't have to talk about it. Did was that from personal experience? Did you see that in families you knew? Or did where did that piece come from? Because the way you wrote about it and even how you don't quite find out till later about some of the you know, it all kind of like unravels, and some of it they don't even realize is weird. Right? Like, when something happens to you so young Mhmm. Can you even acknowledge it as as sexual abuse if it's just what's happening? Right? Mhmm.

[11:15]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, I am an abuse survivor, but I was really careful not to put any of my own experience. It's a strange thing. Right? Because you know the feeling, but the action is not yours. Does that make sense? -Right. So I know the feeling as a child, and, you know, that's probably all I wanna say. -I'm really sorry. -But I know the feeling as a child, but there are so many people that I know who are survivors. Mhmm. And not just African American women and not just African American girls. Mhmm. So, you know, one of the things about this book is that the question I kept asking and even more urgently as, you know, we we started going through some things as a country. Right? That's all I said. How did we get to this place? Right? How did we get to this place as a country? How did we get to this place in terms of race relations? Mhmm. How did we how did a family get to this place? Right? So everything that I, you know, had my characters go through, I was always asking that question. How did you know, first, it was for character development. Right? But then it was, you know, if you're if you're just sort of writing technically, I think people can feel what you feel. Mhmm. You know? I remember I was talking to a friend of mine when I was writing, and I said, you know, I'm crying so much, particularly Lydia. Particularly and it makes me feel good that so many people say Lydia. Lydia and Uncle Root are their favorite characters. Right? Now if I was if I was Ailey, I'd be mad. But, you know Oh, she wouldn't be mad. Yeah. Right. You know? And I would be mad if that was really me Mhmm. In with with a new, you know, name or whatever. But I love that people love Lily so much because I put so much into Lily. Because I wanted people to understand that drug addiction is not a moral failing. It's a illness, and and people bring pain with them. And that's how they get to that place. But you know what? I didn't know that until I started writing Libya. I had a whole feeling about people who were, you know, addicted to alcohol, addicted to drugs. I had all of these sort of value judgments. You know, I can be honest now because I'm on the other side of it. But then when I started writing Lydia, it was like something just opened in my heart. And I wanted people to feel that same way because we're going through a new way. Yep. You know? I grew up, you know, when we were living in Atlanta with the crack epidemic. Now we're all living with the opioid epidemic. And so I want people to understand how how we get to this place. And then the same thing with the abuse. Why does somebody tolerate, you know, something that anybody can see Mhmm. Is abusive or or wrong? How did we get to that? Yeah. That's what I wanted to know with everybody.

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[17:34]Zibby Owens: Beautiful. Well, Honore, I don't get it because you are obviously such a special woman and sensitive and emotional and insightful and obviously a beautiful are so lovely. Beautiful writer. No. I mean it. So why are you having all these lonely parts of your life? Why these lonely times?

[17:53]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, you know, when I was going when I was writing the book, I lost a lot of people. I'm a try not to choke up. So there was a lady very well known in poetry circles, Lucille Cliff. She was a poet, and she was a well known children's book author. And she was my second mother and my dear friend and my mentor. She died in 2010. And then my sister died no. My best friend James. So you'll see his name in the dedication. He died in 2011. My sister died. Cece. We call her Cece. Ce don't need, but we call her Cece. She died in 2014. And then my marriage ended in 2015. So it was a lot of pain and, you know, it was difficult. I do have very dear friends, but a lot of people, they're always shocked when I say I'm an introvert because, you know, I don't seem to meet any strangers. But as I tell people, I leave my food at home, you know, locked in a room somewhere. So when I meet people, I wanna I wanna bless people. You know? I wanna bless people. I don't wanna be a person that somebody after they, you know, finish meeting me, they're like, you know, that ruined my day. You know? And I wish I hadn't met that lady. So so when I'm out, I'm out. Right? But I spend a lot of time with myself. I think most writers spend a lot of time with themselves, but there are people that I dearly, dearly love. And when I love, I love very hard. And so it was it was devastating. You know? And so and then I started going through it, you know, was still writing a novel, then when I finished, I was still sad because I still miss my sister. Aw. She's always with me, but I still miss her. It's not the same,

[19:52]Zibby Owens: you know? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Thank you for saying that. I've lost a lot of people I love in my life as well, starting in my twenties. I'm so sorry. No. It just it doesn't always get super

[20:05]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: it never gets that. Nothing ever replaces the the people that have been lost. No. It it doesn't. But somebody said something because a a friend of mine passed away. We weren't close, but you know how you hear those people you just adore, and and you don't see them often. But every time you see him, it's just like no time is there. And he passed away, and he hadn't been sick or anything. I was devastated. And there were because he was so lovely, there were so many people who loved him. And so we were up on Facebook. You know, Facebook is for the older folks. You know? And one of them said something that it sort of helped me a little bit. And she said, grief is what we pay for love. You know? So if you don't really love somebody real strong Yep. You just get past. You know? And you can love strength. Mhmm. I love Toni Morrison. Today is the, you know, day the the anniversary when she paid. I still hurt when I think about I never got to meet her. Mhmm. You know? And I, you know, I still I still miss her. So that's the thing. If you really love somebody, it's really gonna be a hurting thing when they pass away. It's true. I had someone

[21:29]Zibby Owens: on my podcast, I can't remember who said it, but a quote that that she that helps her a lot, which has since helped me is God never wastes a pain. Oh. Which I love. And so I put it on a Write that down as soon as I get off the phone. I put it on a sticky and it's on my computer. And I don't know. It's just,

[21:48]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: I don't know. It helps. Some of these things. It does. It helps. And you know, I'm a faithful person. I don't try to shove my faith down people's throat. I think that's obnoxious. But I do. I'm a faithful person. And so, you know, part of, you know, my kinda getting past my hot mess years is I wanna I wanna I wanna make it to heaven to see my folks again. You know, I don't want I don't want Saint Peter to be like security when I say, you know, when I show up. So, you know, so I am I I do I do believe I I'll see them all again. But for now, you know, I'm in. Aw.

[22:27]Zibby Owens: So are you gonna what are you doing with your writing now that this big project is over?

[22:32]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, I'm I'm working on some essays, and they're all about black women. Mhmm. You know? Because I still feel like many people don't don't know us. Mhmm. You know? And that may be because, you know, when you see black women, we seem so tough. You know? We don't share our pain. We always are keeping it together. You know? So I'm writing about that. And then there there are some some chicken set of stories because I miss them, so I wanna talk to them again. And that's and then, of course, I'm always writing poems. You know? I'm always writing poems. I wake up with a poem in my head, you know, two, 03:00 in the morning. I write it down. Sometimes when I wake up, I'm like, oh, this is horrible. And then sometimes I wake up and I can't even understand how I wrote it down. So I'm writing poems, and I'm I'm just real blessed. You know, things are real busy now, and I'm a little tired. But I always remind myself, I prayed for this. You know? And so I'm just trying to be in gratitude. Wow. And and I'm off teaching this year. I really miss my students. But I'm off teaching this year. My university was kind enough to give me this time off to publicize my book and work on some new things. And so I'm doing that, and then next year, I'm back in the classroom Wow. Where nobody's impressed with me. Well,

[24:04]Zibby Owens: you can just assign your book as required reading, and I'm sure they'll change their mind. Like, if you get through this, you know, call me. Anyway, well, what what advice, especially as a a teacher as well, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?

[24:19]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: Well, I always tell my students, you gotta keep it fresh with your right. Right? It's like any relationship, and there is a relationship that an author has with I'll say her because we're ladies. Right? And so you can't just leave it for weeks at a time and then come back. You know? Like, you're not gonna leave your mate for weeks at a time and then come back and think, you know, they're gonna, you know, pop some champagne for you. You have to, you know, you have to keep it fresh. Right? You know? You know, you're a married lady, so date night. You know? And that's what you have to do with your writing. You have to make appointments with your writing. A lot of times people don't respect us writers. You know? If you say, well, I'm trying to write, they just think you're trying to find time to goof off. So I always tell people, if you feel like somebody's not respecting your writing, say you have a meeting. I I have a meeting. You know, if your, you know, your writing is early in the morning and somebody wants to have a you know, wants you to come in or do some early in the morning, you say, I would love to, but I have a meeting. Or if they want you to do something, you know, later in the day, I'm sorry. I have a mood. But you have to respect your writing because if you don't respect it, nobody else will. And, also, I tell my students, you know, the race is not always to the swift. You know? Lot of people haven't heard of me before this novel. But my first book of poetry was published twenty years ago. You know, I'm in my fifties. And so you just never know when your time is, and you just have to keep pushing. And that's difficult because, you know, you see your friends, and, you know, some of them will get famous, and y'all jealous and stuff. But, you know, our time, if you believe in a higher power, our time is not god time. If you don't, our time is not the universe's time, but your time is coming. And you just gotta you you walk toward it, and it will meet you. And that's what I tell folks. Aw. I love that. Well, my gosh. Andre, this has been so nice. I've so loved getting to know you. And I feel the same. Aw. Thank you.

[26:49]Zibby Owens: I wish I could, like, give you a big hug now or something. Where are you in the world now? Are you still in in Atlanta, or where are you now? Oh, no. I'm in Oklahoma. Oklahoma. I've been I've been out here in Tornado Alley since 2002.

[27:02]Honorée Fanonne Jeffers: I'm used to it now. You know, when I first came out, I'd be covering in my closet and everything every time tornado season. But, yeah, I've been out here. I teach at the University of Oklahoma, and it's home now. But every once in a while, you know, I gotta travel back to my real home. Uh-oh.

[27:21]Zibby Owens: Well, if you're ever in New York, give me a call. I'll meet up and have coffee or something. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you you so much. Okay. Well, have a great day and enjoy the ride with this book and, you know, get some rest and just, you know, enjoy it. It's your time. It's your time now. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Okay. Have a great day. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.