Jason Mott, HELL OF A BOOK: A Novel

[1:19]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Jason Mott is the author of Hell of a Book, a Novel. New York Times and USA Today bestselling author Jason Mott lives in Southeastern North Carolina. He has a BFA in fiction and an MFA in poetry, both from the University of North Carolina at Wilmington. His poetry and fiction has appeared in various literary journals. He was nominated for a 2009 Pushcart Prize award and Entertainment Weekly listed him as one of their 10 new Hollywood next wave people to watch. He is the author of two poetry collections, Call This Thing Between Us Love and Hide Behind Me. He's also the author of three novels, The Returned, The Wonder of All Things, and The Crossing. The Returned, Jason's debut novel, was adapted by Brad Pitt's production company Plan B in association with Brillstein Entertainment and ABC. It aired on the ABC Network under the title Resurrection. Now I have to go back and watch that. Jason's fourth novel, Hell of a Book, just came out. Welcome, Jason. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Enough Time to Read Books to talk about Hell of a Book. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Well, the great thing about this book well, many one of the many great things is having a protagonist who's an author going on book tour, and yet you are an author going on book tour, obviously. So you were very clever, I think, in the ways that you told the media not to bother you in this book. So among the 8,000 other things that accomplished, I am not gonna ask you what this book is about. Although, I love your media tip to repeat the title. And I was like, oh, okay. I should do that with my own books. Like, I don't usually do that. So okay. Thank you for that. You're welcome. Okay. I'm not gonna ask you what it's about. We're just gonna, like, have a conversation. What do you have for breakfast today, Jason? Like, tell me tell me that.

[3:35]Jason Mott: With it, I had, like, a protein shake, some eggs, and bacon. So it was pretty good, simple breakfast. Okay. What about yourself? What'd you have for breakfast? I had some of my kids' Honey Nut Cheerios. Awesome. Yeah. I have a Honey Cheerios. Oh, that sounds so good. Yeah. Was It was actually

[3:48]Zibby Owens: fantastic. And you know, didn't take much time to eat, so that was good. Okay. So you have developed some of the most interesting characters here in this book. I love the pacing. I love the way they talk. I love, like, all their funny interactions. I love how you never know if the boy is real or not and all of the mental health sort of issues. I love how you riff on the publishing process and wow. And then and yet incorporate, like, really important big themes in life, like race and and police. And yet you package it all up in this, like, narrative. Like, you're almost tricking the reader that you're reading, like, this light, fluffy book, but it's not at all a light fluffy book at at all. You know? Anyway, tell me about your I didn't wanna ask you any questions. Okay. So respond to that if you want to. And if you don't want to, that's fine too. No. You're you're

[4:40]Jason Mott: totally allowed to ask any questions you care to. Yeah. That was definitely like so part of the the book's goal was obviously twofold. Like, I wanted to have a very serious discussion about race in America and identity and all those very big, quote unquote, heavy topics that kind of, you know, permeate the American existence. And yet, also at the same time, partly for my own kind of well-being, but also for the well-being of the reader, I wanted to have some fun. Like, I wanted it to be a comedy. Like, I I'm someone who I I don't take myself very seriously. I take my writing very seriously, but I myself, I do not take myself very seriously. So I like to laugh and I wanted to create a space where readers could come to the page and find this absurdist farce where like the silliest things are happening one moment and then literally the next page over, you've got really heavy dramatic, you know, powerful moments that are occurring as well and that pendulum swing between the two was part of the kind of the technical challenge for writing this and it was a lot of the fun as well because I like to laugh and like I got to laugh during the writing process and I think readers are laughing during reading, and that's actually what I wanted. So that's really good.

[5:39]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I mean, you start off right away with us. How can you not laugh at, like, a naked man in a hotel lobby, like, trying to get a key and then not having his driver's license? And, like so you set the tone. Great. But then, you know, we go through all of this intense sadness later when you see what happens and, like, parts of it, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I couldn't believe, like, you saw it coming. And anyway, that you know? So it takes you on, like, a wild ride, basically. I think my favorite character was the limo driver. He was so great. Like, tell me I mean, he ended up and take I mean, okay. So tell me about, like, inventing that character. You're just sitting in your office. Tell me about, like, humming up with him, and are you chuckling like, tell me about that.

[6:20]Jason Mott: Yeah. It's funny like that that he he's a character who stole the show from for so many people. He's a character that when I wrote the character, I definitely enjoyed writing it. I didn't expect it to be this this character that so many people kind of connected with in such a strong way. But it was funny when I said the manuscript to my agent, she immediately was like, I love Rainey so much. I love this character. I love him so much. And so he came about just because when I was on Book Tour for the Return, you know, almost ten years ago now, it really like, a lot of the craziness in the hell of a book like it's patterned after that. Like it was a really whirlwind surreal bizarre frenetic experience and I wanted to kind of capture that. And one component would happen is you would land in a new city and then we had this limo drive. I don't know what it was called media escort. And they would take you from a bookstore to bookstore and all those kinds of places because they knew the town better than anyone else. And so I wanted to kind of combine a few really positive because I there were there were some crazy media escorts I had and there were some really cool people. So I took the best parts from those really wonderful media escorts I had. People who really helped me kinda get through the book tour, and I rolled them up into Rainey's character. And I patterned him after an actor named James Hahn who has he's an Asian American actor. He's been in, you know, film for decades now, and he's really become one of those people, one of those actors whose body of work has kind of been the background of my life. Like he's been in so many movies that I love and so many parts of my existence growing up that I wanted to kind of pay an homage to him as an actor. So I patterned the character after, you know, after him a little bit, and then so that's that's where Reni the driver came from. And he's he's become a a sudden star of the show. It's totally unexpected. I thought I was so unique. Well, forget that. Alright.

[7:57]Zibby Owens: So much for so much for my original interpretation. I wanted to just read this one paragraph because I thought it was so interesting in this whole theme of being seen and invisibility and who has the gaze, you you know, there's this whole like male gaze and multilayered, or maybe it's just luck. I don't know. I think you meant it. Okay. You say, so you're some new kind of superhero, I guess, the invisible kid here to save the invisible day. Yeah, the boy says brightly, I never really thought about it like that, but I think that's pretty dope. Like, I can be here one moment and then not hear the next whenever I want. Nobody can see or hear or even touch me if I don't want them to. Something akin to pride creeps into his voice. But it's a hollow sort of pride. It's the pride of someone who's rarely proud of anything. It's the type of pride that can be knocked over with a feather, and so it rarely gets to shine in the face of the world. The little black kid flashes those impossibly white teeth at me, and he laughs. And then he covers the smile and quells the laughter like Miss Celie used to do. And I know that he spent his entire life being afraid to be happy. I'm sorry, kid, I say leaning back. What are you sorry for? The kid asks. For whatever trauma of mine led you here, I reply. And before I know it, everything and all of it hits, and I'm asleep. Oh, I love that passage. Well, tell me about tell me a little more about that and this whole notion of, you know, from the beginning, this boy who feels like his main superpower is to not be seen and to try to avoid pain essentially, which he can't escape from, whether or not he's real or figment or whatever.

[9:22]Jason Mott: So a lot of that that kind of component of the the visibility, you know, seen and unseen, some of that actually does come from my personal experience. Like, much as I may seem like a very gregarious outgoing person, I'm actually a hardcore introvert. I really shy away from attention, I always have. And so growing up, you know, I was the kid who wanted to just kinda tuck away and not be seen. I wanted to sit away and read books and just not interact with people. I always kinda felt a little bit insecure and nervous and all those kinds of typical feelings that you have a lot of time. And that's something that still carries forward a little bit today, like even as an adult and, you know, having written a a few a few things, like, I still get really I still wanna disappear. Like, I still very much the the spotlight and attention always kind of unnerves me a bit. So I decided for this novel to kind of really lean on that and play into, like, kinda explore it for myself but also really make that a part of the storytelling because I think it's a feeling that a lot of people actually have. It's like there's safety in not being seen and the ability to decide when you are seen and when you aren't is something that, you know, I think all of us can kind of relate to like, there have always been moments in our lives when we wish we could just disappear, like something really embarrassing happened or something whatever happened, you're like, oh, I wish I could just disappear from this. So I wanted to kind of use that from a personal standpoint but also like kind of implement some social commentary like parents. I think one of the things that they particularly black parents, they worry about their children so much interacting with police, interacting just with America in general and that ability to disappear would be just the most amazing gift that a parent could have for a child And so that's where that kind of all came from. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[13:03]Zibby Owens: That's really heartbreaking. You know, that that's the gift that they you would wanna bestow on your children. You know, I mean, that's just it's heartbreaking.

[13:14]Jason Mott: Yeah. I think it I think it's a kind of true thing like there is this thing that you're oftentimes taught, at least I was taught and I know many other kind of black males in particular that were taught, it's like you don't want to stand out too much cause you're you're always kind of being noticed to a certain degree, and so you have to learn when you can and when you can't kind of be in the spotlight and be seen. So I've said so much of the story was kind of taking that that social construct and really stretching it out to this big metaphor and hopefully readers are kind of responding to that. Okay. See, I thought you meant to do that. I totally meant to do that. Okay.

[13:47]Zibby Owens: I, you know, I I was also I I don't know if I'm an introvert or just I used to be super, super shy. I think I'm a little of both. But there were times when I wanted to talk. It sounds like you didn't maybe want to talk, you wanted to just hide. I wanted to talk, but I just felt like I couldn't talk because I was so shy. So there were times where I was like, can anybody actually see? Maybe I'm not here. You know, because like, no one would be talking to me because I wouldn't be talking. And I was like anyway, it just really makes you question like, all of the social dynamics, right? You know, and like, what does it mean to be here? And like, do I have to talk? And what does it mean that I'm not talking? And I don't know. All of that mess. He brought back my whole like seventh grade, so.

[14:29]Jason Mott: Good, good. It was meant to bring that back. I can relate to those. I've definitely been the guy who like wanted to say things but then didn't for, you know, shy, introverted security, whatever you want to call it. So could definitely relate to that. I'm the guy who, like, we used to in college, we would have parties, and I would go and, like, I would always just disappear without telling anyone I was leaving. So so, like, they began to call it, like, the Jason Escape, where, like, the party would just be happening and someone would turn around. I wasn't there anymore. Like, that was so much of what a thing I did. I still do that.

[14:55]Zibby Owens: I did that at my own fortieth birthday party. I was like because I also can't, like, take too much. Like, I Yes. I just, like, can't take too much. I get to a point where I'm like, okay. I, like, I'm starting to shut down. I can't be in this big social setting anymore. Yes. And I just am like, I'm out. And I I can't, like, wait five more minutes. It's, like, probably the people I've been married to don't really appreciate it. So I'm like, we have to go right now. What? What? Yes. Yep. Yeah. I know that's so well. Birthday. I just, like I was like, this is too much, and now I need to go home and go to bed. And I just walked out. Yep. And everybody later was like, it's your birthday. Where'd you go? I could totally respect that. That's awesome. Yeah. I try not to do it. But then it's like, I feel like I'm always ready to leave too early, and then I'm gonna get I'm gonna offend people.

[15:40]Jason Mott: Yes. And then they're gonna convince me to stay, and I don't know. It's like a whole thing. But yeah. Yeah. It's it it only is, like I know in my experience in particular, like, it's not that you have any personal issue with the you love the people you're with, but there reaches this point of just kinda critical mass where it's like, I've been socialized

[15:54]Zibby Owens: too much, and I have to go. Yeah. So I totally get it. Gosh. I, like, never even talk about that really. But yeah. Well, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one, I guess, who reaches that point. Not at all. I'll be thinking of you next time I sort of skulk away quietly from a party, and I'll be like, I'm pulling a Jason Mott here. Like that. Oh my gosh.

[16:14]Jason Mott: So are you working on a new book now that hell of a book is, you know, taking the world by storm, or are you taking a little time to just do all this publicity? Both. Actually, both. Publicity is definitely a big part of things right now, but, you know, that period only lasts for maybe a month, month and a half. And so I'm also working on a new project and trying to figure out what it is. So much of writing at this point is just kind of like putting the words out and not really knowing where it's going or what it's actually gonna be about. So, yeah, I'm definitely working on a new novel. I try to try to stay it takes me about a year and a half to two years to write a to write a novel. So I'm always kinda trying to be ahead of the curve as much as possible. So definitely working on some new stuff. Can't really say what it's about yet because I honestly don't know what it's about yet, but it's definitely something to work on. So how do you regroup and get your energy back to do all the interviews and everything? I hide a lot. So so after like a day of interviews, I will just go home and turn on a movie that I've seen a thousand times before and just kind of like let it watch me instead of me watching it. I play a lot of video games. I go exercise with friends. I do Brazilian jiu jitsu, which is fun. I just try to do anything removed from writing as as possible. There reaches a point where, like, I've talked about writing and I've done writing so much for that day that, like, I'm a big movie buff, so I'll just go watch movies or play video games or whatever. Just anything apart from words. That's kind of where I try to do it. What video games do you play? Maybe I'll hook you up with my son. He's 14. It's like all he wants to I play pretty much everything. Like, I'm a big fan of, like, fighting games, so I play, like, Street Fighter and things like that. And there's a game called, like, Dark Souls, which is, like, really difficult. I play that a lot. Yeah. I just I'll I got a PlayStation. I'll just turn it on and find something to play and have fun. Wow. Well, my son is, like, in the stage where, you know, I come in and he's, like, talking to these people, and I'm like, who who are you talking to? He's like, oh, my friend from the video game. I'm like, you are talking to strangers, like, around like, this is not good. He's like, no. No. No. We've been talking for, a year. I'm like, still not good. Yes. Still not good. No. No. I'm gonna defend your son here. I'm gonna tell you, like, totally let it happen. Like, there is a beautiful online community because, you know, games used to be you know, your friends came over, you did it in your house. And all this happened is that shifted to online. And don't get me wrong. There are some weirdos out there for sure, but there are the they vastly are outnumbered by the number of people that you meet who just, like, love the game and they wanna talk about the game. They become your your teammates and your friends. Yeah. That's what he said. I've got a couple of friends who people I've never met in real life. They live in entirely different parts of the country, and we only meet through video games. So Yeah. That's what he that's what he says. Yeah. It's really fascinating. Mind you, I spend my whole day in my room talking to strangers

[18:44]Zibby Owens: on the Internet. I mean, seriously, who am I to talk? I mean

[18:48]Jason Mott: Exactly.

[18:49]Zibby Owens: Right? I'm like, you know, I share my innermost feelings with strangers every single day, and I'm like, oh, no. Watch out with the video games, you know. Exactly. So, okay. Fine. I'll let it happen, I guess. I I also I also get your your point of view, though. Like, strangers talking to your kids is always terrifying, so I I get that as well. Yeah. But I mean, he seems pretty sure of himself. So yeah. And it's also like, I don't know, all these levels, it identifies you somehow. Right? He's like a bronze in this game and like Yep. I'm like, well, do you wanna meet this kid? I'm like in a party with this kid or something. He's like, well, is he a silver or bronze and blah blah blah game? I'm like, excuse

[19:26]Jason Mott: me. Are you a bronze or a silver? You know? It's so Exactly. You gotta show your credentials. You gotta you gotta show your credentials if we're gonna hang out. Yes. Totally get back. Exactly.

[19:34]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. That's wonderful. Excellent. And do you do you ever read to regroup? Like, what do you like to read?

[19:40]Jason Mott: Yes. I do like to read. I oftentimes read books that I've read before, which is I think a I think a kind of a bad habit because I don't read as many new books as I should. But so much of my reading is trying to study writing craft, and so, like, there are certain authors that I just reread their works a lot. But I do have a few new books that I'm reading. Like, right now, I'm reading a graphic novel by one of my favorite comic book authors named Barry Windsor Smith. I mean, it is mind blowing to good. Like, I am so blown away by It's taking me like three weeks to read it because I'm trying to go through it very slowly because he's he's one of those creators who he does not produce very often, like he hasn't had a new piece of work in almost ten years, and so there may be another ten years or so before he produces another one. So I'm just trying to take my time as as possible. But yeah, like I I read a lot of old stuff. I'm a big fan of John Gardner and William Golding, so I reread a lot of their works. Dalton Trumbo, I read a lot of his stuff. Hunter S. Thompson. I just finished reading about a month ago, read Matteo Ascaripur's Black Buck, which which is really wonderful. He's a great guy. Him and I are doing a thing later today. So, yeah, I try to read this I try to read. I don't read as much as I think I should because I spend so much time writing that I just get burned out on words. Like, I I really do. And so at the end of the day, I don't want any words. I want just images usually. So I don't think there's an amount you're supposed to read. Again, with my son, you two could, like, you know, swap graphic novels here at this point. But, no, I feel this like, I don't I don't, like, stop podcasting and go listen to a podcast. You know? I'm like, okay. I'm out. Yes. It's funny because I always I always feel like this there's this pressure expectation as a writer that, like, you're supposed to be reading just all the time and have, like, 30,000 books you've read and you can name off at a second. And it's, like, it's usually not the case because, again, like, I spend so much. So a good six hours of my day is spent writing, you know, working with words. So after doing that for, like, six hours straight, I kinda don't want words anymore.

[21:23]Zibby Owens: I totally understand that. Yes. Everybody reaches a saturation point, and it's totally fine. Exactly. Awesome. Okay. Well, I feel like maybe now I'll connect you with my son over email and you two can play. Sounds good. We'll do. But thank you so much. I mean, I mean, I know I've been sort of like light and flippant. This not flippant, but, you know, the book has real depth and serious issues that are so important. And I don't mean to minimize that by sort of this, you know, lighthearted conversation. So I hope you didn't take it that way. But anyway, it was great. I'm so glad I read it. I'm so happy for all your success, and I hope it all continues and that you get enough downtime.

[22:05]Jason Mott: Thank you very much. This was a terrific interview. Like, I enjoyed like, I enjoyed laughter, so this was a fun interview for me, so I'm really glad. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, you're so welcome. Alright. Well, a great day. Thanks. Take care, everyone. Okay. Bye.

[22:30]Zibby Owens: and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.