Ann Garvin, I THOUGHT YOU SAID THIS WOULD WORK: A Novel

[1:48]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Anne Garvin is the author of I Thought You Said This Would Work, a novel. Anne, PhD, is The USA Today bestselling author of I Thought You Said This Would Work, I'd Like You Just Fine When You're Not Around, the dog ear, and on Maggie's watch. Anne writes about women with a good sense of humor who do too much in a world that asks too much from them. She teaches at Drexel University masters of fine arts program and has held positions at Miami University and Southern New Hampshire in their Masters of Fine Arts program. Anne is also the founder of The Tall Poppy Writers where she is committed to helping women writers find readers. She is a sought after speaker on writing, leadership, and health and has taught extensively nationally and internationally. Welcome, Anne. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. You're, I think, one of the first people who's come on Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight First. Could that be? I don't know. I think you might be right. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a thrill to be on your show. Oh my gosh. Well, you're so amazing. And I loved this book. Tell listeners,

[3:26]Ann Garvin: what your book is about and what inspired you to write it? So my book's about old friends who had a conflict where they didn't know you know, one of them didn't know what the conflict was and the other one had a misunderstanding about it. And they were best of friends, like the kind of friends that were sisters in college. Know, that kind of friend where, you know, you tell them everything, they make your whole life work. Then on graduation, there's a miscommunication and it's so bad that they lose each other. Also, this was like in the nineties. I mean, it was written because they're more, you know, maybe our age or a little bit younger. And so they didn't have that ability to just text or call or find people. And so and they were young. And so there was such a feeling of like, oh my god, what happened? And shame and not really understanding how hard it is to make another friend in later in life, you know, that feels so much like that college friend. So over the years, the protagonist, Samantha, just understands what she lost and then is so deeply sorry and doesn't know what she did. And then Holly, the woman that she fought with, she has really taken it to heart and she's not about to, you know, make friends with this woman anymore. But their best friend is in the hospital. She has cancer and she's asking them to do a big deal for her. She needs her Great Pyrenees dog that lives at her ex husband's house and she wants that dog so she could get through chemotherapy again. This is a remission situation. And so she's like, You know, you guys are the only people that I can ask to do this. This dog can't be flown. You've got to drive with him and you know, you need each other to do this and they can't say no and they don't want to do it. And so midway, like they're both on their way out to California to pick up this dog and they pick up a D list celebrity who just sort of attaches herself to this twosome. And she is like a fairy minx who is constantly sort of causing trouble and making a sort of angry situation funny. And what's interesting about her is that I didn't know she was even planned. She just showed up in the book. Wow. Yeah. And she was obviously like the most fun to write, right? Because she's she's like, you know, when you're a D list California celebrity, anything can come out of your mouth and it's so much fun. Like, it's so fun. And they're both irritated, but they both kind of are glad she's there because nobody wants to read a book of some two people fighting all the way. So like, it was a really fun write. And I wrote it because, well, I was having dinner with two friends who are sort of friends, but mostly I'm the one that is the glue that brings those two together. And I had this flash where I thought, oh my God, it would be funny to put these two in a tiny car and make them drive cross country. And that was the inspiration for it. Was just that. Yeah. Even though neither one of them are really in the book, like I asked my friend, I said, do you even see yourself in the book? And she was like, no, neither one of those people are me. I'm like, I know. You know, people think that you pull so much from your life and you do, but no one was harmed in the writing of this book.

[6:46]Zibby Owens: No friendships were harmed. Well, let's go back to Katie's relationship with her dog because I thought the way you wrote that was really beautiful. And even the way that so her husband basically gets the dog because of his ability to be litigious sort of an unending reserve of cash and gets remarried to this woman, Mindy, who then becomes allergic to the dog. So then after all this fighting, when basically Katie has to give up just because of her resources, she loses the dog and then goes into such a state of grief over losing it that she doesn't know what to do. And the fact that you said that the dog was the one who was able to be like a cancer sniffing dog before that was a thing. So tell me about So

[7:33]Ann Garvin: this dog is Well, I, you know, I think dog lovers and cat lovers, it's really no different. Like whatever animal really speaks to you, I think. But for me, you know, I always have a dog in my lap, so I always go to dogs. But you know how they are so unbelievably loving. I think that, you know, like my dog, if I cry or laugh, like my dog knows it, like he knows what's going on. And she so yeah, her ex husband takes the dog and then because she's allergic, his new, you know, younger wife, he dumps the dog at a pound. So like he's so he's one of those men that blame the wife for the divorce, even though they did the thing that, you know, they divorced them. And that's the ultimate not okayness as far as they're concerned. And so he's mad and he dumps the dog at the pound. So those two friends have to go there to get that dog. I really can't believe I can't believe the guy would do that. I mean, that is like the lowest of the low. Like, you have to be a really bad person,

[8:36]Zibby Owens: I feel like, to abandon the dog that you know has a loving potential owner out there. Right? Yeah. That's like or that's just someone who's so been hurt or so vindictive that they have to deprive someone else of joy.

[8:52]Ann Garvin: Right? Childlike, right? So childlike, so ugly that they would take the thing that your once beloved loves. Right? And then, yep. And I just, you know, I think that we that's how we feel about our animals, certainly even more so about our children. And so when you, you know, when you tap into that emotion of losing something that is so close to you, especially when you need it to kind of really heal and stay alive, then I think you've tapped into something that most people can relate to. And so, you know, for me, I know that if something happened to my dog or someone took my dog, I would require some heroics to get her back. Yeah.

[9:39]Zibby Owens: My dog is literally under my desk right now. Right.

[9:43]Ann Garvin: Yeah, exactly.

[9:44]Zibby Owens: But I actually, I think it's interesting you said it was so childlike of the ex husband, Tom, because I felt like Katie, well, not Katie, Samantha, is a little bit almost, and I don't want to judge anybody because whatever, and maybe this is just her true self, you know, but she also felt a little bit territorial over Katie, right? And in terms of Holly. And I was struck in how much and maybe you did this just to sort of emphasize like their relationship, that even on her way into the hospital and dealing with that drama, when she was the main point person before, her feelings of sort of being usurped it as the main caregiver trumped everything else, right? That she was like, Oh no, I wasn't called first. And obviously, you know, people have those little pings of things. But I do feel like it was like very, what's the word? Almost a little exaggerated in her response to that. Oh, for sure. You know, I think she was so damaged

[10:43]Ann Garvin: by losing this best friend of hers that she just now questions whether she is that good of a friend and what do you have to do to be that good of a friend? Like how could she have lost her very best friend by something that she doesn't even know what she did? So now she's over the top with this other one who she still has. And she's so worried that she's going to lose her or other people in her life. Like she chose the wrong husband. So now she doesn't really trust herself anymore. And I think that that was the pivotal relationship, that losing of Holly that sort of threw her off her game.

[11:22]Zibby Owens: She's also a widow, which was so sad. Like she had lost her husband when her daughter was a baby or when she was pregnant. Like very, very early. Right? Yes. Very early. And that Katie had been there for her in those Right.

[11:37]Ann Garvin: So, you know, it's that kind of complicated history that we all get as we have get, you know, a certain age, right? Like, you sort of approach, and I don't know if this is your experience, but I remember, you know, getting married was not it was the most sort of romantic notion without understanding what the job was. Like, I always say that you pick your partner having no idea what the job is going to be. Like, it's sort of like you put an advertisement out and you think, oh, you know, I really like it when they make me laugh and have a nice smile and I want to be able to have sex with them. But you don't realize later what you want someone to do is peel a banana for you when you broke your arm. Or maybe you want someone to just idea listen to you when you're complaining about something and not solve it. You don't even know that that's a job requirement. You throw yourself into these situations and then little by little, as you learn wisdom, you start to understand that these things really change our trajectory in life. And some of that baggage we have to learn, it's just baggage and get rid of it. And I think with Samantha, you know, she had a lot of garbage from losing that friendship and maybe not having the greatest marriage. And then so she really is questioning herself. Like, I thought that life was just doing these, you know, these points, you know, marriage and family and those kinds of things. It's going to be a wonderful trajectory all the way up. What you realize later is that each one of those things is very spiky and you learn so much in the end. You know, it's so funny because I always think, this is going to sound silly, but I always feel sorry for all the people that were like on the Oregon Trail that died when they were 20. Because like, you don't get to know anything about yourself until you're older. And then all of this, you know, experience and hardship and wisdom sort of comes to fruition. I think that sometimes, you know, it takes till you're 50 before you sort of go, oh my gosh, like, I'm a fully realized person now, not just sort of a pretty cardboard cutout. And I kind of like writing about these really complicated things that make us human that that are like you and I or like, you know, not not very, you know, not somebody that, you know, with like, one of the things that Katie Moretti tells me is she goes, it's really easy to make and this is not true. I know this isn't true. She goes, but whenever my thriller gets boring, I kill somebody. She's like, but when you write a book, you can't kill anybody. You have to keep making it interesting. And the way that I like to make it interesting is take normal problems and put them in a little bit of a pressure cooker and then sort of show people like, isn't that sad? Isn't that funny? Isn't that sad? Isn't that funny? And so you have to really underscore some of their weaknesses to get there, I think. Interesting.

[14:31]Zibby Owens: Yeah. And I feel like you're really highlighting sort of the almost impossible expectations of marriage, right? Especially when you get married young. And just like what you're saying, like you change yourself, your needs change. How can one person be expected to kind of know that, sense that, shift with you. I mean, it's like miracle if it ever

[14:57]Ann Garvin: works right. It's a miracle. And I'm in it's a problem that I like to look at with a magnifying glass, not really a problem, but an experience for people that I just can't look away from. I think it's fascinating how certain people connect and how other people don't connect and how some of those relationships are sustainable and some of them aren't. And I, you know, I lost a friendship, you know, I mean, it was probably fifteen years ago and I don't still don't know what happened in that friendship. I'm assuming that I did something. And I I've reached out actually, like last summer because I found her and she lives in Australia. And I said, so I always felt like, you know, that we had this disconnect and I just have always felt really bad about it. She goes, No, I don't think so. And I thought, Oh, I just think maybe she doesn't want to talk about it. And that's But I may never know what happened there. And I know that all of us have those, like we lose friendships or sometimes they gently slide away, which is sort of a blessing. But then we also have friendships that maybe should slide away and we don't know what to do with those. So, you know, marriage is one of those things that we can put a stake in it and go, this is why relationships are hard. But friendships are a little bit stickier because we don't have the license and a way to break up. So true.

[16:29]Zibby Owens: And the impact of breaking up with a friend is can be just as like, you know, life I recently interviewed Helly Williams Brown who wrote something called like Crafting for the Insane something. It was really good. Sorry, I can't remember I the thought that. Right? Anyway, it's a really great memoir. But in our interview, she was talking about how she had lost two friends, right? The friends who had stood by her and abandoned And she didn't go into details. But she did say that when she eventually got kind of diagnosed for the pain, they called it traumatic, like traumatic loss of chosen family. Traumatic grief, right? So there was actually like a DSM category or something for it in psychology. Right. Because it's such a thing, right? And it's so traumatic and makes such a difference. People say, Oh, it's just a friendship. Well, no, it's like it's everything. It can be everything. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quinn says beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And Their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[20:08]Ann Garvin: That is fascinating. And it it deserves it. Don't you think it deserves it? Yes. Yes. A 100%. Yeah. And I think that's why, you know, women often both get sort of lifted, but also disparaged for writing so much friendship fiction and things like that. But my God, what is there in the world if not friendship and family? And so if we're not going to really take a good long look at that, then what is there? It's certainly not our jobs, you know? It's it's these relationships that we build every day. And also, you know, this is true when we're young, but even more true as we get older. You know, I we are weirdos. People are weirdos. And I like a good weirdo. Like, I love a good weirdo because they are the most interesting people. So my characters can be a little bit weirdos, you know? Like, people are always like, how did you even what is that? You know, spend a little time with people, and everybody will tell you all their weirdo ness. That's right. I love that. Yeah. I just think that weirdo ness makes them the more loving or more able to love. Like, their mess is makes them more lovable. Love that. Wait. So, Anne, tell me about starting tall poppy writers and that whole thing and running like, just tell me all about that. Yeah, I so well, I'll tell you back when I was my first book came out in 2010 and I didn't, you know, I didn't have any author friends and I wasn't in the business and it was kind of a fluke. And I sat in my chair and I was on the day of my divorce and I had pneumonia, a divorce, and my book came out. And I thought, oh my god. Like it was really kind of 2010 was really before I mean, sub published people really knew how to do social media and sell books, but, know, the traditionally published people really were behind the eight ball on that. And so I thought, oh my god, I am never going to get any readers. My career is going to go right into the because there's no possible way for me to do this. And I thought, well, I don't I don't like that because it it made me think, well, this is probably why so many women writers write one or two books and then they're done. And I thought this is how women get silenced. Like, it it became sort of a feminist issue for me because, men get a lot of the accolades and they get a lot of the awards. For a while there, back in 2010, New York Times was not really putting men and women on the list at the same time. And there were things that were definitely inequities. I thought, like, that that doesn't go for me. Like, that makes me unhappy. And so I thought, well, I'm going to do what bands do, which is, you know, have an opening band for the smaller author, you know, in the same way. Then I remember that commercial way back a thousand years ago, I'll tell two friends and you tell two friends and so on and so on. Well, that was really the roots or the underpinnings of social media. And so I thought if we all just get together, we'll just, you know, help each other on our launches. Instead of just one person talking about it, we'll have multiple people talking about it. But I had no idea. Like, I had no idea what I started then because it really struck a nerve with everyone. And it's been, you know, I also didn't know, like, I was always I've been a professor for years. And so when you're a professor, you tell your students you do this or you fail. Well, as a collaborator, you know, that's not my role in the tall poppies. So, you know, making a structure work with a lot of really independent, strong women thinkers is both exciting, but also takes a feat of organization. And, you know, I'm a lovely person, but organization is not my forte. So, you know, I realized that I had to bring in a lot of other people that had better skills than I. And so we started to build that poppies based on, you know, their skills like marketing skills and, you know, art skills and organizational skills. If that's what we've come to and it's been a really great thing,

[24:17]Zibby Owens: But I never had any idea how big it was gonna get. And then So how big is how big is it? Like, how many writers are there? Like, how do you get involved? How do you become a tall puppy writer? Like, what are the requirements?

[24:29]Ann Garvin: Right. Well, we have fluctuated from 50 writers, and we've gone all the way down to 25, like when the pandemic kind of hit us hard. And so now we're back up to say, I think we're at like 36 or something now. And we worked really hard to diversify our authors because for a while, we were the tall white poppies and it was very uncomfortable for me. And so we've worked really hard to bring in lots of diversity recently. And so that's part of it. If you want to be a tall poppy, we do have an application on our website, but also it's best to probably reach out to a poppy and just feel them out and say, you know, like, how would I be a poppy? Like, what does it take? And I think when I what I would tell people most is that what it takes is generosity. You have to really not be, you don't, I mean, anybody who wants to be a poppy because they think, oh, that's the way to get their book into the world. That's really not the greatest way to approach us. The best way to approach us is, you know, here's what I can bring. I love the idea of helping other people because I don't like to talk about myself that much, which is really where it started for me. Like, I'm I mean, I'm not showing that right now because I'm talking so much, but I don't love talking about promoting my stuff. It makes I'm from the old school of, you know, if people, you know, find me, that's great. But so I you know, what we look for in a poppy is just this sort of generosity and sort of an ability to start in a double dutch jump rope and get moving right away and bring ideas and help move people forward and want to collaborate ideas and openness and things like that. That is really what makes the tall poppies sort of, I think, different and the best. Plus, we're a cross genre group. So we don't all write different things. We try to make sure that, you know, everybody writes different things and we try really hard to bring in and help as many authors as possible. So even if like being a tall poppy is not something that you can do because of time, you know, interacting with us is the way to get our attention and then we help out as much as we can. That's, you know, our goal is sort of to help everybody because there's if there's readers, oh my gosh, that's great. We're not competing for those readers. Like I, I only compete for readers like three days around when my book comes out, you know? And then it's just everybody trying to find a really good book to read. Maybe they don't want to write read a road trip book where where there's a dog in it. Maybe they're more interested in reading a thriller. Well, we have those too. And so, you know, we just think that, you know, getting these books in front of readers like you do every day, all over the place, is like the most wonderful thing that you can do for writers and keeping reading alive and keeping reading in front of people and keeping stories in front of people. Like, you know how they say that they've said that people's attention span is so shortened? And I don't actually think that's true. I think what people want is a good story. And when they find a good story, they will spend the day reading that story or two days or three days. That's certainly my case. And we just want to make sure that it's not just the biggest name people that get known. It's some of the smaller name people that don't have, say, the publicity funds or don't have the largest publishers. We want to make sure that there's more of a egalitarian kind of way of approaching book promotion. So that's why I started it. That's great. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, didn't you start like, when did you start doing yours?

[28:08]Zibby Owens: 2018.

[28:10]Ann Garvin: March 2018. Okay. So we have been limping along much longer than you. But when you sort of came on to my landscape, when I started to realize who you were, I thought, Oh my God, this is exactly what we need. This is exactly the kind of thing because what you do is just that very thing. You've to elevate these readers and writers so that they can find each other. It's so important. You know, that's what we need.

[28:34]Zibby Owens: Trying. Yeah. Anne, I know we're almost out of time, but I really, I want to know what you're working on now. Like, are you working on a new novel? What's the plan? And then advice for aspiring authors.

[28:46]Ann Garvin: Okay. So yes, I'm working on a new book. I just got my second round of edits back. It's the hardest book I've ever written. It's set in New York though. Oh, nice. Yeah. And it's about three women of three different generations who bond on an airplane and each of them from the different generations sort of help each other figure out what they have to do in life. And right in the center of it is a blackout and they have to sort of navigate their way through a blackout to get to what they need and want. Love it. So yeah, I'm never going to write a three person point of view ever again. I could die. This book was so hard to write. I don't know why, but it has really done a number of me. And I would say a new aspiring writer. You know, I have so many thoughts and I think about that all the time whenever like, what would I have told myself? And I think I read one time that impatience is the thing that will stop a career in writing. And when I first read that, I thought, oh, I just sort of blew it off. Was like, oh, I'm not that impatient, you know, like whatever. And I thought, oh my God, that's everything. So, you know, like you have to be patient with your writing. You have to be patient with your craft. You have to be patient with the people that tell you that your book isn't working or is working. You have to be patient with the process of finding readers. You have to be patient building this career. And impatience is the thing where you you're like, Oh, it's fine. It works fine. I just want to get it out there. Or, Oh, this agent is the agent that I'm going to take because they're available to me and not being patient and finding the exact right way to move forward rather than the way that you feel time urgent. And I think honestly, at this point, that's probably my number one thing is this patience and patience with yourself. Oh my gosh. And your story. And I'm speaking very sort of heartfelt about that now because I'm deep in the middle of a book that is only sort of working. And so I'm trying to give myself as much patience and generosity as possible.

[30:51]Zibby Owens: Awesome. Well, Anne, thank you so much. Thanks for all you do for authors. Thanks for coming to mom's hometown to read books and- Oh, I love it. And all of it, really. Yes. Thank you. And next time I come in New York, I'll give you a call and make a Yes,

[31:06]Ann Garvin: absolutely. You will. 100%. All right. Okay. Thank you again. You're Thank you so

[31:10]Zibby Owens: welcome. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram ZibbyOwens and momsdon'thavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.