Mary Dixie Carter, THE PHOTOGRAPHER: A Novel

[1:19]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Mary Dixie Carter is the author of The Photographer, a novel. Her writing has appeared in Time, The Economist, The San Francisco Chronicle, The Chicago Tribune, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The New York Sun, The New York Observer, and other print and online publications. She worked at The Observer for five years where she served as the publishing director. In addition to writing, she also has a background as a professional actor. Mary Dixie graduated from Harvard College with an honors degree in English literature and holds an MFA in creative writing from The New School. She currently lives in Brooklyn with her husband and two young children. Welcome, Mary Dixie. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Now Time to Read Books to discuss the photographer. Thank you, Zibby, for having me. I'm so pleased to be having this conversation with you. Oh, you too. Okay. Would you mind telling listeners what the photographer is about? And also what inspired you to write this? Yes. So

[2:46]Mary Dixie Carter: the photographer is Delta Dawn. And Delta Dawn takes pictures of wealthy New Yorkers and their children. And at the opening of the book, she goes to the home of Amelia and Fritz Stroud to photograph their daughter, Natalie's eleventh birthday party. And she falls in love with this family, and she becomes obsessed with this family. And the book is the story of her insinuating, trying to insinuate herself into the family. And I got the idea for the book because I hired a photographer myself a few years back. And when I got to photograph my two kids, so my kids are now 11 and eight, and this was a few years ago. So the pictures came back of my children and they were beautiful, but my children's eyes were cobalt blue, vivid cobalt blue, and they're not in real life. And I said to the photographer, I'd like for my children's eyes to be their real color. And she said, There is no real color. And I was so struck by that point of view. And like, if you took that, if you kept going with that point of view, what would that woman look like? And what would she do? And what would she be capable of? And that is how I started thinking about Delta Dawn.

[4:22]Zibby Owens: So Delta is Wait, wait, did she go? Did she fix the eyes? She She

[4:29]Mary Dixie Carter: did a little bit. She never fixed them completely. The end result was like some hybrid of

[4:39]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. I would say give her royalties, but, you know, now I'm annoyed at her on your behalf. So okay.

[4:47]Mary Dixie Carter: Well, no. She's very talented, but I can't say that the I can't say that the the this character is really based on her. It's No. I know. I'm kidding. But that core idea of, like, there is no real color, and then you can apply that to photographs, and you can apply it to anything. And Delta, it's sort of irrelevant what was there in the first place. Like, photographer, this it was irrelevant what my children's eyes color really was. It really didn't matter. And she kind of erased it from her mind because she had a vision of what it ought to be, or what she wanted it to be. And that's what Delta does in her photography, and that's what she does in her life too, and kind of creating the life that she sees for herself and wants for herself.

[5:42]Zibby Owens: Wow. By the way, it kept saying in the book that Delta Dawn was a real song, and everybody what is it a real song? It is a real song. Oh, okay. I should have googled it. I didn't It's Tanya Tucker. Delta Dawn,

[5:54]Mary Dixie Carter: what's that flower you have on? Let it be a faded rose from days gone by. So it's a song from, I don't know, the '70s or something. And it was sort of famous country song at the time. And I knew that song. I mean, my mom's Southern, so that might be part of the reason why I knew that song growing up. But Delta Dawn, so her name, some people have asked me about choosing that name, Delta Dawn. So, did the song is one way I got that name, or the main way, I should say. And the lyrics, if I kept going with the lyrics, which I won't, but the lyrics to the song kind of speak to this character. And there's a kind of an emotional tie in, nothing specific in terms in details about either the person in the song or the person in my book, but a similar feeling about the two things. And then the other thing is, so as we were discussing earlier, my name, Mary Dixie Carter, a very Southern name, a double name. And I've always lived in New York or Los Angeles, never lived in Tennessee, or I've never, which is where my mom's from. I've never lived in the South. And so my name is always been like, noteworthy, like people comment on my name, people are confused by my name, and it makes me a little bit different. And that's what I was going for with Delta Dawn. I wanted a name that would mark her as an outsider a little bit. Now, are a lot of things in the book that make her an outsider, but that's just one more thing that makes her an outsider.

[7:47]Zibby Owens: Interesting. I like it. Another question about the house that you describe in such detail. Is this a real house? Like, did you go to someone's house and sort of co op it for this story or did you make it up?

[8:01]Mary Dixie Carter: I made up the house, but I took elements of houses. So, and I even walked a little bit around Brooklyn looking at houses and thinking, would it be that house or would it be that house? And then I looked online and you can see, I mean, there's so many pictures of beautiful townhouses that you can see online. So I spent a lot of time looking at the different elements. And I didn't choose one house completely, but there was one house that I saw online that I was like, I think that's very close to it. And then because I needed different, you know, like, I needed outdoor space, or I needed something different for this house and this story, I changed it accordingly.

[8:48]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, I've, like, fallen in love with this house. So, you know, I'm going to be, like, searching online because you the way you wrote about it and your writing in general is so clear and vivid that you feel like you're literally standing in, like, the gleaming staircase or the double height ceiling or, like, whatever the details were in the bathroom and, like, the towels. I don't know. It just it's very immersive, which probably is why is part of the reason why the reader is so, like, drawn in and, like, kept on their toes is because it all feels so real, you know? So anyway.

[9:25]Mary Dixie Carter: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to hear you say that. And I was very disturbed

[9:30]Zibby Owens: by the powers of this photographer because, you know, the idea that you can just manipulate reality, right? Like our lives right now are all so tied up in photography, right? Instagram and our culture is all about that and what you see and what you post and what that means about yourself. And the fact that someone could just like, you know, that you're cozying up to the wrong guy or you're, you know These things, it's very dangerous stuff.

[9:57]Mary Dixie Carter: It really is dangerous. And then like, that was one thing that I was thinking about as I was writing it, was how much photographs are playing such a huge role in our lives and how we see ourselves and how we see each other and how much is about presentation as opposed to like what, you know, having a real interaction that doesn't have anything to do with images. But images play such a huge role in everything that we do. And I'm, you know, I'm guilty of it too. I'm not like commenting on something or thinking about something that I don't do myself. But it's frightening, I mean, how far it can go. Very true.

[10:42]Zibby Owens: And you had some really interesting lines about photography itself. When you said you said something like, show me hold on. Let me see if I can find it. Show me a photographer. Well, you did say, I need to believe in that person's beauty. And if I can't see it, then the camera won't see it, which I thought was really interesting. But there was one where you said show oh, here. This is also really funny. Try photographing a moron. It's next to impossible. What I'm always looking for is the sparkle in the eyes, the curiosity. If the subject of my photograph is not thinking or doing anything, the photograph comes out blank. Moron is one of my favorite words, by the way. So I

[11:17]Mary Dixie Carter: know that's, like, in the very, very beginning. My dad uses the word moron, so I'd like it was in the that's how I came up with the word moron. But this character would think, I mean, that's it's it's a show something about her. I think that she would even use that word describing any kid like it says something about her and her state of mind. Yes.

[11:40]Zibby Owens: And just her, the way she manipulates everything, like the calculation behind everything and the texting and the offering to Now I'm like, Has anyone offered to, do you know how to sit? Should I be a little more nervous about everybody and what their motives are? Because this is like, she seems so normal and nice and warm and whatever on the outside, and yet, you know, she's walking around naked and like, you know, I mean, this is not stuff you want to have happen with your photographer at all.

[12:14]Mary Dixie Carter: Yeah. She's a really good liar. She's a really good liar. Really good liar. And, you know, I think one thing that makes her a good liar is she lies to herself. Once she's lied, she convinces herself of the new, like, this new truth. And like, she believes it. And I've known people like this. I'm sure you have too. And I think we all lie to ourselves a little bit, but some people really, like, go extreme in lying to themselves.

[12:46]Zibby Owens: Now I'm like, forgive me if this is the wrong so I just learned and was I don't think this was in this book. Reason why the whites was that in this book that the reason why they're like in evolution, there were the whites in people's eyes is because it's so you could tell if someone's lying because the most dangerous thing to other humans is not being able to trust other humans. And so there's this imperceptible movement in the eye when people lie, but we're also tuned into it on some subconscious level. So you need the white space to see when the eyes sort of go back and forth.

[13:21]Mary Dixie Carter: That's fascinating. That was not in I wish this wasn't my book, but it wasn't. Can't I don't know. Now

[13:28]Zibby Owens: everything's just like melding into one. I just read that in the last week. So I'm gonna have to go back and figure out whose book that was in. If whoever wrote it is listening, I'm really sorry. But I did just learn that about Interesting. About lying. So yeah, that there's like I never knew that. I never knew that either. Gosh, I hope I didn't dream that. I mean, I'm pretty sure it happened. I'm pretty sure I read it. Anyway, yes. But like being able to lie and not being able to trust, these are like if everybody's lying, of course, you know, society falls apart, right? What happens then? Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wait. So tell me about how you got into writing to begin with. Well,

[14:08]Mary Dixie Carter: I was a journalist before I started writing novels. I've been writing in some fashion for my entire life. I started off as an actress. I mainly was on the stage. I mainly did a lot of plays, classical theater. I think that I'll just as an aside, I'll say that I think my acting background and my journalism background has been really helpful for my writing a novel. I feel like I use the same kind of muscles or skills as an actor as I do as a writer, and thinking about characters, really getting into the character. And then in terms of my journalism background, it's, I think, you know, being able to write succinctly concise, you know, clear and short. And so, I think those things have been helpful. But anyway, so I went to work for the New York Observer. At that time, my father was the he started the New York Observer, the owner and publisher of the New York Observer. He then sold it, but I had gone to kind of work in the family business. So, when he sold it, I wrote it in The Observer, and then I wrote for other publications too. I wrote for The Economist, San Francisco Chronicles, Chicago Tribune, And recently, I wrote a couple of pieces for Time. But when I was pregnant with my first child, I wrote the first draft of another novel that was not published. I still like it, but And I had an agent who a different agent who sent it around and people said really nice things about it, but no one bought it. So, it's still sitting there, and maybe someday, we'll see. But it was very helpful, I think, to write that first novel and then have that as like, I just knew more about writing a novel, having done it once, And, you know, the second time around certain things I understood a little better. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[18:24]Zibby Owens: Wow. So, like, how did how long did this take to do? This novel took about

[18:29]Mary Dixie Carter: three years, but some portion of that was more focused, some portion of that was less focused. You know, other things were happening too at the same time. And then, you know, that three years was really, I'm talking about the time that I was on my own before I got an agent and before, you know, I was working with my editor at Minotaur Books and everything. That was, yeah, that was the three years before. So it's been, you know, the whole process has been longer than that. Wow. Did you know what was going to happen the whole time? Like, did you have it all? Yeah. No, I didn't know. I for this book, and I don't know if I would always do it this way, but I really got into the head of this character. And I was interested in her voice and what she would do. And I kind of wanted to allow her voice to drive it and not decide it ahead of time. And I think it was the most, it was the best way for me to write this book. So, I had no idea what was going to happen at the end. And the very, very end, which I'm not going to describe for, you know, in case someone hasn't read it, but that surprised me. Like all of that ending section and then the very, very end, it was like, Oh, this is what happens. It was not something I plotted out.

[19:55]Zibby Owens: It was interesting too how you talked about, or not you, but the uncovering of miscarriage and infertility and sort of layering that sort of heartbreak onto the situation and how even somebody is how somebody can still use such a such an emotional thing for their own personal gain in in a way is really unbelievable.

[20:17]Mary Dixie Carter: Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, Delta has no boundaries on what she's capable of doing. And, you know, I I she just kind of goes. She knows how to behave in front of other people, and how to seem, you know, how to have a nice conversation with someone and ingratiate herself. But when no one else is around, she doesn't have the normal kind of societal constraints that the rest of us do. However, I will say that I didn't want, and I'm hoping that this is true, that the reader doesn't see her as the bad guy. I think the Straubs are guilty just as much as she is, but in a very different way. Like, they bring a lot of this stuff on themselves. They have, they're entitled and arrogant, and they've got a lot of issues themselves. And Delta, you know, I hope someone who's reading it will feel a little bit of compassion for her, because a lot of what's driving her is the feeling of being an outsider, and really, really wanting to be part of something and belong to something and feeling like, and the camera's kind of a metaphor for that. It's keeping her on the outside. She has something between her and the scene that she really wants to be in, but she's not. So I hope that people connect to that. That's the way I connect to that character. And so, occasionally someone asks me, like, this character doesn't seem similar to you. Like, is there any part of you in Delta Dawn? And my main answer has been, the feeling of being an outsider, I think that everyone can relate to. And at some point, everyone has felt like an outsider in different situations, even when the external circumstances don't necessarily

[22:20]Zibby Owens: warrant it. I don't know. If you come over, I'm gonna make sure I do not have half open bottles of Pinot Grigio on the door of my refrigerator. I might rethink the fact that we have no cameras in this house. I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna keep a close eye on you. Just don't. Yeah. Do I mean, the thing about photography, and I love taking pictures, by the way, like I've always I feel like it's part of when you're more of an observer than an actor. Like, I always like to sort of watch and see what's going on. And being behind the camera is such a great buffer and such an interesting way to experience things. Like even now I have to be like, okay, don't take like, you don't have to take a picture, but everything I'm seeing is that way. So anyway, in that way, I totally related to Deltaton as well. Well, you know, one photographer said to me, I can't remember who it was,

[23:13]Mary Dixie Carter: but this person, he said, I like that about photography. And I like being on the outside and being able to observe the scene. And I'm not sure which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You know, is are you a photographer because you like being on the outside or you're outside or which way it goes. But his whole point was like taking kind of a positive spin on being the observer. So I get that. And I am too, I feel like I'm often more

[23:51]Zibby Owens: comfortable in that role of being the observer. Yeah. I think a lot of people who are in that role tend to write books. You know, I do think there's this intersection of people who like to stand around and sort of check everything out and notice. But now I'm making us both sound creepy. So what is coming next for you? What are you working on now? I am working on another novel. It's too early to tell you

[24:19]Mary Dixie Carter: too much about it because it's just, it isn't that far along. But it will have certain similar themes. Like I know that it will have this. I've already seen in the pages that I've written, none of which are very good, that the outsider theme is reappearing. Not because I planned for it, but it's just there. So I guess that's, you know, that's just something that I keep coming back to because I'm interested in it. Aside from your name, what else has made you feel like an outsider? You know, I don't think that I think that most people would look at me and not think that I'm an outsider. And so there's not much concrete that would make me an outsider. But I did have, the only thing I can think of is that having parents who got divorced and remarried and divorced and remarried a few times makes you like, not totally feel like you belong to this household or that household or like, where do I belong and where do I fit in? And so I think that, and this is nothing negative about my parents or my step parents, but just the nature of that childhood, I think can make you question like where you belong. You know what I mean? Yes. Oh gosh. Now I'm feeling bad. I mean, I am divorced myself and

[25:49]Zibby Owens: about to shuttle my kids off tomorrow. So anyway, but yes, I am also a child of divorce and I do know what you mean. So yeah, there is something to that for sure. So what advice would you give for aspiring authors? One

[26:02]Mary Dixie Carter: thing I would say is that you need to accept that you're going to write a lot of bad pages. And it's almost like embrace that, that you're going to write a lot of of pages that are awful. And you almost like, that's not wasted time, wasted effort. You won't even be able to get to the good pages. This is true for me, and maybe it's not true for everyone. You can't get to the good pages until you write the bad pages. So like just settle into that and don't criticize yourself. That's been true for me.

[26:41]Zibby Owens: Excellent. Amazing. Well, thank you. Thanks, Mary Dixie. Thanks for coming on. I am in solidarity with you having a name that requires some explanation. So I get that as well. And, yeah, I am probably never hiring a photographer again. Thank you. So I will. Before I go, I just want to say how much I love your book. Oh, thank you. Your

[27:04]Mary Dixie Carter: anthology is so good and resonated with me, like on so many of those essays resonated. So congratulations.

[27:15]Zibby Owens: And it's really beautiful. Oh, thank you so much for saying something. That's really nice. Yes, moms don't have time to. I highly recommend it. Thank you. All right. Well, a great day and thank you so much for coming on. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com, and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.