Sarah Maslin Nir, HORSE CRAZY: The Story of a Woman and a World in Love with an Animal

[1:30]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Sarah Maslanir is the author of Horse Crazy, the story of a woman and a world in love with an animal. Sarah is a staff reporter for the New York Times and was a finalist for the 2016 Pulitzer Prize for Unvarnished, her more than year long investigation into New York City's nail salon industry that documented the exploitative labor practices and health issues manicurists face. I totally remember reading that article. Before becoming a staff writer, Nier freelanced for eleven secondtions of the paper, traveling to the Alaskan wilderness in search of people who prefer to live in isolation, and to post earthquake Haiti. She began as the New York Times nightlife columnist, covering two fifty two parties in eighteen months and continued on to a career that has taken her from covering kidnappings by terrorists in West Africa to wildfires in California and everything in between. A born and raised Manhattanite, Sarah Near earned a master's at the Columbia School of Journalism and graduated from Columbia University where she studied politics and philosophy. She loves horses, which you will find out when you read this book. Sarah, thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss horse crazy. Thank you for having me. Your first in person. My first in person, I'm a little nervous about it. I'm like, what do we do?

[3:18]Sarah Maslin Nir: We have live humans sitting

[3:21]Zibby Owens: next to each other. Person in front of me. You can't watch me like shuffle through and hear my dog. I don't know. Anyway, okay. As you know, I loved your book. Loved, loved. Could not put it down. Read every word, like just obsessed with the way you write and what you were writing about. And I just loved it. It was like, so like there was a poetic quality to how you write and, the sentences were really beautiful and yet it didn't even matter like what was happening. It was how you're writing about it. But then what was going on was also really interesting. Anyway, I didn't say that very well, but why don't you tell listeners what horse crazy is about and why you wrote this memoir?

[4:00]Sarah Maslin Nir: Sure. So it really gratifies me to hear that you like the sort of lyricalness of the writing because I'm a reporter for the New York Times. And as a journalist, you're not exactly allowed to have a flourish with your pen, right? It's the facts, you know, get it right, get it straight. So writing a reported nonfiction that became memoiristic enabled me to have fun with my pen and be my literary self that I've bottled up for so long. So thank you for clocking on to that. But to answer your question, I'm a reporter for The New York Times. I have been there for a decade. I actually started out as the party reporter. I did two fifty two parties in eighteen months. And then I moved on to be a breaking news reporter and an investigative reporter. And I've actually traveled all over the world for the times serving briefly in West Africa and in Haiti. Everywhere I went, when I finished my article, I'd put down one notebook and I'd whip out another, just my own, and I'd go find the horses. And in finding the horses, you always find the stories behind them. And those stories are people. And I realized I've been writing this book for years just by dint of my own personal obsession. So Horse Crazy, I like to say, isn't a book about horses. It's a book about obsession, a reported look at what makes us obsessed. And it just so happens that my focus is these wonderful creatures. And I found people all over the world just like me. I actually pitched the story as to Simon and Schuster who published it as a compendium, like an almanac of these animals all over the world and people who love them. And I ended it, this isn't my story. This is the story the horses have told me. And they pushed back and they said, actually, we think it is your story. And then that became the narrative through line is my own personal journey with how horses have saved me and healed me being the glue that holds it together. Wow. So I shouldn't have even called it a memoir because it's not exactly a memoir. Yeah. It's a journey through obsession turning my reportorial lens and on myself, which yikes as a reporter, you you don't ever use the word I or me in anything I write, it's forbidden. And so that was the hardest part of this book. So that's why it was structured with like a horse for each chapter. Is that from your original proposal? Yes. Yes, exactly. There were sort of an almanac of these animals and they were like, no, no, no, no, It's an almanac of you and exploring your own obsession. Wow. And I should say I have always kept my passion for horses totally secret until the last two years. I cover really, really challenging corners of the world. I did a large investigation into, for example, if people know my work, it's usually into New York City nail salons, a big expose on the labor exploitations and health effects manicurists face. Was a final Amazing. For the Pulitzer Yeah, thank you. And I was worried I wouldn't be taken seriously as a New York Times reporter if I revealed that so much of my heart and soul was caught up with ponies. And I was speaking to a friend who's a book author, and he said, what do want write about? I said, well, actually horses. And he said, Sarah, the only thing that matters is passion. Passion translates. It's a universalizable thing. And it doesn't matter the subject. That's what readers wanna hear. And I think that's kind of the theme of your podcast. Right? There's such variety and so many stories, but passion translates. And that inspired me to come out as a horse girl. Wow. But why were you embarrassed about it? I just thought that it was soft. And perhaps that is a little bit of the misogyny that's tied up with horse sport that I talk about in the book. That it's this thing that is a focus of women, at least in North America. It is really predominantly female, the 100 jumper world that I'm in. And so it's seen as cushy, as a light thing, even though it's extremely. I've broken my vertebrae several times. I asked you when we sat down for this conversation if I could have a pillow because I'm in constant pain. It's as extreme as hang gliding or mountaineering piloting an animal at velocity. But it's minimized, I think, because of the feminine connotation. And I had minimized it in my own way.

[7:58]Zibby Owens: Yeah. It doesn't sound feminine as you're like, you know, bareback riding in, like, all these foreign countries. I can't remember. You know? I mean, it's crazy the stuff you were doing. The galloping scene where you're, like, taking off to the I mean, woah. It's a lot. And all the times you fell, I mean, this is like it's like you're not even, like, riding. You're, like, in a you're, like, in a on one of those things that come in bars, you know, like the rodeo thing that likes to throws Yeah. You That's like you in the story. You're just like constantly And it becomes such a great objective correlative for life that

[8:28]Sarah Maslin Nir: falling off is part of riding. It's not a failure of riding. It is part of the journey. I say to fall off is to ride and to get back on is to live. And in that way, examining my own passion for these horses, why am I so successful? I've broken myself so many times. I'm not that good,

[8:46]Zibby Owens: but I'm addicted and to understand that was the journey of the book. Wow. And you had this passage early on about this is how you described the writing and sort of what it was about it. You said it was also hopelessly decadent that we were naive to the image we cut, prancing on horseback to do our luncheon shopping in the fanciest town in America. We picked blackberries from horseback on the way home and dismounting back at the barn, we ate hunks of bread and cheese in the shade with Amigo tearing grass beside us in silence. It was a decade before cell phones and we don't have a single picture to document our ritual and I'm glad for it. We were so present I can still smell the grass, the brine of horse sweat, the sticky mint on my palm. Best of all, it was a world away from the high pressures of high school and my higher pressure parents and the whizzing buzzing city that enveloped us and kept us far from horses most of the year. It was the only world that felt my own.

[9:35]Sarah Maslin Nir: So nice. Thank you. Well, I really examine in the book why was I so committed to this world. Now I'm the daughter of an immigrant, a Holocaust survivor, a Jew from New York City, truly out of place in this elite, WASP world of Jackie Kennedy and you know, Cashmere and Jodhpur is so I felt. And I think my obsession was about passing, about belonging. My father had masqueraded under several different identities as a Catholic in order to survive persecution by the Germans during the Holocaust. And here I was really shoehorning myself into this world, trying to pass in another way. And I really unpacked that my parents were psychologists and psychiatrists. So of course, I'm screwed up and I got to dig into that. But in the book, talk a lot about identity. Makes you belong? What makes something your own? And I would often say to dad, dad, this isn't our world. This is Ralph Lauren's world of Cashmere and John Furze. And he'd say, Sarah, not Ralph Lauren, Ralphie Lifshitz. Ralph Lauren's original name is Ralph Lifshitz, and he's a Jew from New York just like me. And that spoke to me about identity is what you make it and what you define of it. You can choose it and create it yourself. And if I can go on, please. This is your show. Go for it. Well, I could talk about horses endlessly. But I ended up working for a black cowboy in Harlem as a teenage girl. And I didn't know that black cowboys, one in four cowboys were black in the American West in the pioneer era. And they have been totally erased from the American origin narrative. Right? Because even though I'm not cowboy stock, somehow that's all of our origin narrative. Right? It makes us what? Wild and free. And they've been removed. You never see them under Stetson on the silver screen. You know, the Marlboro man is white, white, white, and yet the West was integrated. And I didn't know anything about black cowboys till I for this gentleman in Harlem. And in the black cowboys erasure from the American story, I saw a parallel to my own people's almost literal erasure from this planet. And so I ended up riding with the black cowboys in Harlem, the founder of the black cowboy museum, who's a postman who's been his life savings to recreate a space for this community in the horse world. And it's just a weird journey that horses took me on, but really a journey into finding myself. I loved when you were doing that riding in Harlem, how

[12:01]Zibby Owens: you asked why you like, you wanted you were required, not required. The owner of the barn wanted you to ride in front of the kids who would come in on field trips and you felt bad about it. And you were like, why don't they ride? And like, what's the point of this whole thing? And he told you, the point is not to teach them to ride, it's to teach them to dream. That was so awesome. Anyway, it gave me chills. Yeah. I've

[12:25]Sarah Maslin Nir: heard that story myself a million times because it's my story and I have chills sitting here. Look at what chills it'd be. Chills. Because I I said to him, to doctor Blair, said, you know, we have these inner city children coming to pet these horses at the New York City Riding Academy, as we called it. We don't teach them any riding. What are we teaching them? And he said, we're teaching them that they're part of the American story, that there is a different world out there from the one they feel is inevitable, laid out before them in the ghettos and in the poorest tracks of the city. And we're teaching them to dream. And I'll never forget that sentence as long as I live. Yeah, that was really inspiring.

[13:00]Zibby Owens: I mean, with any, I guess, obsession, if you call I mean, I feel like obsession has a negative connotation. I wouldn't have described this book as a book of obsession. So I'm interested that that's how you saw it. Because that sounds bad to me. Like I'm trying to quit or like it has a hold on you that's bad as opposed to a passion, which is something you're really into and it's a great thing. Obsession to me sounds like Glenn Close and basic instinct here. Not basic instinct. What am talking about? Fatal attraction. Right? Like, where where it's an uncontrolled negative thing. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[16:18]Sarah Maslin Nir: Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with your podcast, so I think it's a positive.

[16:23]Zibby Owens: In

[16:24]Sarah Maslin Nir: that reference, you can keep that one. But think about it. I've deeply injured myself. An x-ray technician looked at my spine once and said that was almost a game ender. So is the obsession healthy? Oftentimes I have felt unworthy, when I can't achieve in this incredibly demanding sport. So maybe there is a negative side of obsession, but obsession is also a driver. Obsession with achievement, obsession with a passion can be a tremendous positive, like, flame under your tail that That's true. Sets you going. So, yeah, maybe I don't mean obsession negatively, but I also accept the negative sides of this obsession. I'll tell you a really interesting story from the book. It's about horse crazies, which is a word of honor to me. Also, crazy can be negative, but I wear it with a badge of honor, who are obsessed with plastic horses.

[17:13]Zibby Owens: I, okay, after, no, I'm sorry. No, you go ahead. No, don't ask away because- No, I was gonna say after I read that was when I was pulling out all of my mother-in-law and late mother in law's stuff from the basement. And I pulled out all of my sister-in-law Stephanie's stuff because her mom had been holding it all. Anyway, long way to say it. As I was saying before, I pulled out all her horse riding ribbons because she's a huge was a huge horseback rider. And then I pulled out a whole crate of those horses, the plastic horses. And I was like, this is exactly it was so crazy. I was like, I just read that upstairs, put my book down and then there it was. Oh, they're haunting you. They are. I know. I was like, this is like a cosmic something. So for people who don't know, they're one to nine scale models of horses, hyper realistic,

[17:57]Sarah Maslin Nir: and they're children's play things, which is why you found them in a box packed away. However, there is a tremendous community of adults who take them around the country and compete them. And competing is not like making dioramas with them or decorating. It's literally store bought models against store bought models. And then for criteria I can't understand, the best one wins. And just so you understand the scale, they have a Lollapalooza called BriarFest in Kentucky every year where the Derby is. 30,000 people show up. 30,000 people are into this. So I came to a convention, a smaller one, a horse horse show, model horse show, totally skeptical, thinking, who are these wackadoos, you know, who are doing this? In full honesty, really violating the journalistic tenets of of being open and absorbing. And I left inspired by them, that here was this community of people who, unlike me, are not thinking about the world thinks about them. And they were engaged in unmitigated play. And we lose play. Your show is about moms. And how often do moms wish they could just play with the same abandon of their children and we lose it. And here are people holding onto it tightly. And I would deem them just as much horse people, even if they've never pet a real one that's not made of plastic acetate as I am, because they see the whimsy enjoying it just as I do. Wow. Tell me a little bit more about the pain because

[19:22]Zibby Owens: you have had so many injuries as you the back and we were just discussing, but I know it's an obsession, but still. And you had one line in here too that was like, I know that I keep hurting myself, but I'm not going to stop anyway. And I felt like this was a cautionary line. Like, is there some part of you that wants someone to be like, maybe you should take it easy? Do you know I mean? Like, what's this about? Know? Oh, that's so interesting. I've never been asked that. That's an excellent question. I have to think hard about it because, again, my parents being therapists, there has to be a deeper reason. Well,

[19:53]Sarah Maslin Nir: there is, right? The calculus of how important this is to me is apparently something I'm willing to die for. And I feel that way about my job for The New York Times. I've gone into very dangerous terrorist kidnapping zones in Benin and West Africa. And in moments, I thought, this is your workplace. And I thought, you know what? You are willing to die for this. I don't think you want to be reckless for it, but there's something about the importance of these two things in my life that I am willing to risk it all. And horse crazy is a journey into understanding what is so compelling about this. It has to be more than their big amber eyes and the way they feel when I rest my cheek on their flank. And I think there is, and I wanted to examine that in other people. There are women in this book who gallop away from shattering marriages. There is a woman actually, the cover of the book is a rare Indian Marwari horse. You've read about it. So for people who haven't read, they're just like regular horses, except they have a delightful addition, which is curly cute ears on the top of their head. And I became totally smitten with them when I wrote them in India. And I was like, I have to have a Marwari. Turns out you can't. They're banned for export by the Indian government that considers them a rare commodity and wants to protect them. But there's one lady on Martha's Vineyard who has, like, a dozen of them. So I called her up, and I was like, how do you have a dozen of these? And she's a total, like, very decadent bitch. And she's like, come to my farm. You'll see. Come. I'll see you this weekend. Alright. So I show up on her farm, Francesca Kelly, and we swam with the horses and we galloped with these wild Indian horses. She told me how she's been the steward of them in in going back to India for twenty years. She's a British socialite to cultivate the breed and support them in their country. And she got a couple out before the ban, and then it locked down. And I said to her, know, Francesca, great story. Thank you for the weekend. The ban was in, like, the nineties or something. How come there's a two year old here? And how is there a four year old horse? Yeah. And she looked up at me from her floor of her mansion in Barth Standard, and she said, Sarah, you come up with tremendous adventure when you engage in tremendous duplicity. And I was like, what the hell? Turns out she's been smuggling their semen on air India flights in her pockets, rare Indian horse semen, and building this illicit herd. But then as you ask, right, why are you willing to go to these lengths for these animals? That's risking a lot. And there has to be more to it. So I I said to her, you know, and I often say this, the sum total of my job description. And yours too is the question why. That's it. If you if you wanted to answer a a journalist what a journalist's life is, why? And so she'd give me the what, you know, the horses. She'd given me the the how, you know, the smuggling. But no why. Why you, Francesca Kelly? Why are you the steward of these horses for twenty years? And going back after this initial safari ride that made you fall in love with them, she went on a ride with her husband. And turns out she's been going back, yes, to cultivate the horses. But to have a steamy love affair with the safari guide from that initial ride she went on 20 ago, their love affair has spanned both their marriages and destroyed hearts. She said, Sarah, yes, horses are the story, but are they ever the whole story? So I feel like saying that to you. Yes, Zippy. Horses, they're the story. Are they ever the whole story? But that's the cookie. That's the horse crazy journey in the book. Wow.

[23:20]Zibby Owens: I love that. So on top of traveling everywhere for the New York Times and doing all of that work, you have your little notebook on the side where you took notes. But when did you write the whole book? Like what was that process like? How long did that whole thing take you? How did you integrate it with the rest of your busy life and all of that?

[23:40]Sarah Maslin Nir: Really interestingly, I think I have been writing this book my whole life as a narrative alongside my own work. So when I have a particularly harrowing phone call to make to someone who's just lost a loved one in a tragedy for the times, which I do periodically and is very, very challenging, I pull up a video of a horse galloping on my screen, and I just look at that while I make these really painful calls. And so that's almost an analogy for how horses and their story have always been sort of a through line in my life. And so this was quite easy to write because I've always been living that story and much easier than the journalism I do, though it's deeply journalistic. There's a lot of reporting into how horses saliva works. And I went flying with importing horses in the belly of a seven forty seven with nine Dutch warmbloods to understand the importing business and and a lot of that. But horses have been a story almost like a musical note that's been humming in the back of my head. So it just came out. All right. Awesome. Yeah. That's not how it works with the stuff I do for the times. I'm slamming my head on the desk, slaving over it. But this just trotted out to be corny.

[24:54]Zibby Owens: But it sounds like a funny Not funny. No. Not funny. Okay. I'll give you a Do

[25:02]Sarah Maslin Nir: you love what you do at the times? It sounds like you love doing this. Oh, I love what I do at the times. You love both? Yeah. Oh, I can't believe there exists a job where you can be a professional busybody. I get to ask people about their deepest, darkest things and get in people's face and be like, tell me about you. I need to know everything about you, and I'm allowed to ask. That's just so delightful. That's what I would do anyway. You know? It's like a cocktail party on steroids. That's my life. It's really fascinating.

[25:32]Zibby Owens: I know. I'm almost, like, sad the cocktail parties are going to come back because I've really enjoyed having thirty minutes to get to, like, the innermost secrets of everybody I talk to. Yeah. I don't think I'm gonna be able to do it. I'm gonna be like

[25:43]Sarah Maslin Nir: every conversation will be like an interview. Yeah. I I don't have shallow conversations, which is it could be, you know, draining, but it's also be to able to do that for a profession. A lovely man who passed away who worked at the Times, Charlie De La Fuente, at his retirement party twenty nine years, he said, I wanted to say this for twenty nine years, so I'm gonna say it now. I can't believe you've been paying me for twenty nine years for what I would have done for free. Yeah. And that's how I feel about working at the times. That's amazing. Don't tell them. They can keep paying me. Don't

[26:12]Zibby Owens: listen. Log off. Log off. So what next for you in life? You have this amazing book out. You're busy as a reporter or journalist or whatever you want to call it. Both. Both? Both. Where do you see things going? Well,

[26:26]Sarah Maslin Nir: so much, Zibby. I actually love that we're doing this now because I just signed a couple new developments. I think I'm allowed to talk about it, but I just will anyway. I have a children's book series coming out with Abrams on horses. So sort of taking the journeys from this book and making them middle grade. And they're actually going be told from the horse's perspective, which will be really fun. And I've never done any fiction. So that's going be really exciting. Talk about like letting your pen fly. And I also am working on an investigative documentary series on the horse world that is just getting underway. So that is like the horse media mogul dom I'm trying for. I just got a corner, more horse markets and more different venues. I love that. And now you need a children's book, younger. Oh yeah. Kids like really little ones. Like really little ones. Just because I have a few. So Okay. Yeah. Because they're horses. Great. I have three sold already. Yeah. Pre sell. Your preorders are taken care of. Yeah. But it's really amazing to align all your passions. Like never if you had told like, you know, 12 year old me that I would be writing about horses and making movies about horses, she would have just punched you in the nose and been like, liar. You know, this is what you do on the side, and this is your private dream. But now it's becoming my life. That's so great. Well, having sort of ridden through

[27:47]Zibby Owens: this journey with you Hold on. Payback. Okay. I deserve that. No. It's really satisfying to see what's coming out of it all because it obviously comes from such a pure place of passion and interest and really respect for the animals. I mean, the way you talk about horses, I haven't heard anybody else talk about them. I feel like I've learned new things about them. Not that I'm even I mean, I used to ride a little bit, like, as a kid or whatever, like most I'm not I shouldn't say like most people. Like, a lot of people I grew up with, every so often we would like it's like it was in the thing with that. Girl thing. Right? Yeah. Skating and I don't know. It's something you tried. Right? But I'm no more horse person than the next person. All to say, after this book though, I felt very differently. All of a sudden, by the way, started getting like I posted about this book and then I got like five pitches about other books about horses. And I was like, no, no. I'm not. It's not that I want to read more about horses. Just my attention

[28:45]Sarah Maslin Nir: into it just made me rethink of them. Think of them in a new way, in deeper way and knowing the history of them. And I don't know. It's just really cool from an intellectual sort of exercise perspective. Well, I'm really honored by you saying that because that was my goal in writing it, that I didn't want to write to preach to the converted, right? I say in the beginning of the book, when anyone asks me really, why do I love horses? I say, because horses, right? And that's just an answer that every horse person understands. But it's not a book just for horse people. It's a book for anyone who's ever wanted to understand passion. So you being able to derive that from it and go on a literary intellectual journey with it is my whole goal. Oh, great. So thank you for achieving it for me. Boom, off the list. There

[29:27]Zibby Owens: was so much though also about your dad and about your mom too, but really the relationship between you and your dad and his inherited trauma and Judaism. And I mean, there was so much. Like the way that everything came full circle at the end of the hunt. I mean, oh my gosh. Oh, wow. You just tied it up with such a nice bow. I always joke that people are going to get this book and be like, why is there so much Hitler in this book about horses?

[29:50]Sarah Maslin Nir: And I had a lot of self consciousness writing those threads. But I come to terms with it in the book and I say, braided together, those are the threads of my life that I have to tell my truth and show that tapestry. But with a father who had really his life forged in the fulcrum of war, I felt deep self consciousness just of having a comfortable life, right? Like how are you allowed to be Okay? How are you allowed to have a problem with your pony when your father had such atomistic ones as survival, as mystic problems of survival? And my father would say, never envy me, my trauma. I envy you or spared your own. And it really made me realize that we're all in our own journeys. But putting those different threads together, I had a really extreme self consciousness about writing it. Just as anybody who's the product of intergenerational trauma has a shame about living a happy life. Like, how are you allowed this? How are you allowed this victory? But my father saw riding horses as one giant victory lap. Yes. Spitting in the eye of the forces that tried to wipe us out. And actually, I'll just tell one quick story that you read in the book. One year I competed in a very Tony horse show, the Hampton classic, you know, the creme de la creme. And I was about 14, 16, I can't remember. And I was sure I was garbage. You know, I I had a deep sense of unworthiness inserting myself in this world. So I put my horse away and I went to find funnel cake, right? I'm there for the cake. And my dad, this elderly Holocaust survivor who knew nothing about horses, waited all day long at the ringside and, you know, burning in the sun. And when they called the winners out of 60 or so horses, I had won second place. And so the horses, as you know, trot in for a victory lap, right? They go into the winner's circle, but they're in the line of these gallant steeds as my little old dad because I'm nowhere to be seen. And he puts a second place ribbon on his chest, and he turned to the judge, and he said, I defeated Hitler. And I got it. Right? It's the craziest thing, but I got it. And maybe that's part of what drove me to this obsession Wow. Continuing

[31:54]Zibby Owens: the victory lap. I love that. Okay. Last question. What advice would you have for aspiring authors?

[32:01]Sarah Maslin Nir: For aspiring authors, write, write, write, write. But I don't mean write and sit down with a pen and make it beautiful. I was just saying this to someone. I actually was interviewing a veteran who has extreme post traumatic stress disorder, and that prevents her from doing so much and from writing. And but she has a story to tell. And I said, anytime you think of a thread of a story, pop your iPhone on a recorder, make a voice memo, just go. And to me, that's writing. That's just storytelling. It doesn't matter if it's beautiful or punctuated. Just start getting your story out even if it's just to your little recording device, and that's the first step. So many times we stop ourselves before that with I'm not good enough. It could never be me. It's someone else. My dad had a motto. I will leave your listeners with this. It was let them say no first before I tell myself no. And I just love that and it's guided my entire life. Let them say no first. Don't do the work for them. Try and let them say no first. And chances are they'll say yes. Love it. Wow. I feel like your dad just like

[33:05]Zibby Owens: came in. Little Yehuda. Yeah. Little fly

[33:09]Sarah Maslin Nir: by or something. Fly by Yehuda. I love that.

[33:12]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, Sarah, thank you so much. Thanks for this experience of reading this book and getting to chat with you. And I'm so excited for all the things you have coming up and Thank really you. I'm excited for you have coming up and more in person stuff. Should we touch hands? I don't know. We look real person.

[33:31]Sarah Maslin Nir: Thank you.

[33:33]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.