Karin Tanabe, A WOMAN OF INTELLIGENCE: A Novel

[1:55]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, My website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Karen D'Nabi is the author of A Woman of Intelligence, a novel. Karen is also the author of A 100 Suns and The Gilded Years, which is soon to be a major motion picture starring Zendaya, who will produce alongside Reese Witherspoon and Hello Sunshine. A former Politico reporter, her writing has been featured in the Washington Post, Miami Herald, Chicago Tribune, and Newsday. She has appeared as a celebrity and politics expert on Entertainment Tonight, CNN, and CBS early show. A graduate of Vassar College, Karen lives in Washington DC. Welcome, Karen. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss a woman of intelligence.

[3:11]Karin Tanabe: Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I really loved this book,

[3:15]Zibby Owens: but also love this outfit, by the way, on the cover.

[3:18]Karin Tanabe: Thank you. You know, I'm gonna admit, I was the art department at Saint Martin's almost killed me because I made them change the bag, I think, four times. I was like, not the right bag. It's still not the right bag. I mean, it was perfect. Honestly, the cover looked just like this. We changed nothing except the bag. Oh my gosh.

[3:38]Zibby Owens: I love it. I love the wallpaper or whatever, you know, that pattern. I just I feel like I should have been born at this time. You know? Like, I I like these clothes more. You know? I I think I would have done well then. Yeah. The clothes are unbelievable. Though I have to say,

[3:53]Karin Tanabe: like, the maintenance to look that good all the time seems exhausting.

[3:58]Zibby Owens: That's true. That's true. But there was less to do. Like, you didn't have email. You didn't have to do emails. I

[4:05]Karin Tanabe: know. I know. Email is the reason we don't do our hair every day. That's the reason. Pretty much. If it weren't for email,

[4:11]Zibby Owens: I would look like this right now.

[4:14]Karin Tanabe: I would do exactly like this right now.

[4:17]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Okay. So your book, do you want to tell listeners what it's about? I kind of hate asking authors this question, but I do think people want to know, or I could try to I could just summarize it either way.

[4:29]Karin Tanabe: No, I'm happy to summarize it. So basically, I like to call it a book about a woman who really loses her way through motherhood in the 1950s, who had a sparkling career as a translator at the UN and then kind of gets locked in this domestic cage. Just happened so much in the 50s. And she hits rock bottom. She really is in the throes of what we now call postpartum depression. And there's really nowhere to go but up or very down. But she's like had a moment. She's like, I need to do something with my life. You know, I'm in a very bad place. And right at that time, she's approached by the FBI to spy on a former lover from her college days who is now pretty high up in Soviet intelligence. And she decides to do it, starts lying to her husband, starts spending less time with her children. And it really gives her a new lease on life, a new identity. She really finds herself again in that role and having a purpose outside of the house. And I think, I hope it resonates not just with mothers, but anyone who's had to, you know, wanted to redefine themselves in their lives, who looked in the mirror and said, this isn't the person I want to be, what can I do to get there? I love it. It's really, you know, all the feelings about motherhood could be today. I mean, this could be like on a blog or something. Like, I could

[5:54]Zibby Owens: my friends at coffee like these are like they transcend time, some of these feelings, especially the way that they are not so openly discussed. Right? Like, I feel like it's midway through the book when she's talking to her mother-in-law about, you know, what it's really like and why do people not talk about it? And why is it so hard to have kids and so, like, soul sucking at times. Right? Now I feel like it's a lot more socially appropriate to wallow and and admit it, although not a 100%. You know, you could joke about it, but, you know but then I feel like she didn't have an outlet and she there here's this, like, super smart woman, knows like a thousand languages and like has all this ambition and talent and beauty and drive. And her gorgeous husband on 5th Avenue just wants her to like hang around the house and take care of the kids.

[6:43]Karin Tanabe: Yeah, yeah. And that was, I mean, that was the case for so many women in the fifties, you know? It was all these highly intelligent, educated women, you know, got their degrees or were just very smart on their own and then were locked in their houses. And they were told, I think the hardest thing for me, looking back on that time is like, you were supposed to be fulfilled, you had to be fulfilled. And if you weren't fulfilled by that role, something was wrong with you. And I think that was, I can't imagine having been in that position. And what you said today, I think there's a lot more room to talk about how for some women being a mother isn't totally fulfilling, it can be very, very hard. But I still think there is this stigma around talking about it. Every time I've talked about it, people will be like, But you love your kids, right? And I'm like, Well, of course I love my kids, but that's not the issue. We don't have to always go in, asterisk, I love my kids, when we are talking about how hard it is, you know? You know, it's sort of funny. It's like

[7:43]Zibby Owens: everyone like, if you said to people in all these different jobs, okay, and now I'd like you to put aside this job and you are going to become a full time live in nanny. Yeah. They'd be like, well, I'm not sure of the skill set for that. Or like, oh, I don't know. I'm not always that patient. Or I might really miss, like, whatever. That's not the job I picked. And yet that's essentially I mean, know they're your own kids, but the skill set involved, the skills you need, and the actions you take when you're at home with your kids, which I was for many years, like, you know, they're all of a sudden, you're like, Well, what about all those other things too? Where do they go? Like, where does it all go? And sometimes I like, look at what I'm doing now even, and I'm like, all of this like, had all like, but I wasn't doing anything at all. I was on the floor every day with the kids and like, you know, like where does all that extra energy go? Like, I'm not surprised that what's her nickname? Rina's gets like depressed,

[8:39]Karin Tanabe: right? Because it's like you're an injured athlete, right? You're an athlete who can't do their thing. Totally. And you're an injured athlete and you're supposed to be fine with it. I think that's the main issue is it's like, oh, you're benched from the thing you spent all this time and energy learning how to do, but don't you love it? You know? And I think that's, you know, she has a friend who just adores motherhood and she's like, Isn't this just the greatest thing that ever happened to you? And Rita's like, I mean, she doesn't say it at the time because you couldn't say it. But she's like, No, it's really, truly not the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I mean, there's different parts of you that get fulfilled. Like, there's nothing, you know, the love you feel for your kids,

[9:19]Zibby Owens: you know, that will fill my heart forever and my soul and whatever, but it's not necessarily going to fill my mind every minute. And I don't know why it should be okay to dissect those two. Like, yes, this is amazing and full of love and has changed me forever, but it's not, you know, it's not taking that box that I had been right? So something is still empty that can't get filled because it's like a different right? It's like having two gas tanks in two different cars.

[9:46]Karin Tanabe: Totally. Totally. And I think sometimes when you love your kids so much, which is wonderful, you don't pay attention to loving yourself. And I think that sometimes, I certainly did, you wake up one day, you look in the mirror and you're like, but what happened to me? Where did my own self love go? Where did the person who I was before kids go? And that's something that I really dealt with and emotionally put into the book. You'll read

[10:14]Zibby Owens: a lot of that. No, after I read the book, went on your Instagram and I was like, all right, how old are her kids? They're like Terrible. I'm like, what phase is she? Are they still this young? What's going on with her?

[10:28]Karin Tanabe: They be they feel like they've been babies forever. They look a little older now, though. How old are they? They look a little older. Yeah. When I was writing it, they were three and four. Now they're four and five. So,

[10:40]Zibby Owens: you know, rumor has it, they grow up and life gets a little easier. It gets very different. I'm now finally out of preschool. I have six and eight and 14 and 14, but it's different in a in a new way. But there is it's not as physical, which I think is nice. Know, these moments where, you know, she's getting all the bodily fluids of her kids all over her. And oh my gosh, the scene, the best scene in the whole book, I think, is like when her son gets injured and she doesn't know he has glass in his knee and she's just standing there and she just like can't motivate herself to pick him up. Like, of course, the husband sees. But I totally understood that. Not like, could just so put myself in her shoes in that moment. And like, and then the judgment, the external judgment, how it's so not fair, right? No one saw what she went through except us as the reader, right? So we get it. But still, like nothing becomes excusable.

[11:35]Karin Tanabe: I don't know. Was great. Just I mean, I think every mom has had that moment. I remember my kids were my son was a baby and my daughter was two when I was trying to take her preschool. And I had one of these, like, big strollers, double strollers, and she just was, like, raging so much that it tipped over in a crosswalk in the middle of one of the biggest streets in Washington, D. C. And I was like, Oh, and you kind of don't know what to do. It's so overwhelming. Obviously you wanna pick your kids up out the street. But like, I just remember all these people watching me and nobody helping me, you know, just everybody like looking at me, embarrassed for me or not wanting to look at me because they didn't wanna help me. And I was just like, I wrote a line in the book that says like a woman of young children, you're in a ring of chaos all the time. You you walk into a restaurant with your four kids and no one wants to be seated near you and no one wants to listen to your family. And

[12:30]Zibby Owens: it's just it can be very tough. I had the same thing. I I had the double stroller, and I had to go down, like, two steps, and I was by myself. And so we went down the first step, and then, like, it caught or something. So the stroller, I was like this about to fall over myself, and the kids were just dangling from their straps. And I was like, help. But who's gonna help me? A stranger's gonna come rescue me on this? Anyway, I finally figured it out. Yeah, it's no fun. But yet you took all that emotion and then you made it this whole other story with like intrigue and sophistication. And I love that. So it's not just like you're sitting around like moping about the mom condition, if you will. But you took us all on this interesting ride. And I feel like when I think about 1950s housewife, I immediately go to the suburbs, right? Like, that's the trope or whatever. You hardly ever read about 1950s housewives on 5th Avenue, Right? Like, what was that like? And as an upresider myself, I'm particularly interested in like, what would that have been like? You're like, okay, interesting. Because in New York, like as it is now, you just are constantly with other people and seeing what you're missing. And I feel like maybe in the I don't know. I mean, what did what did you think about sort of this time period in the city versus, like, what we kind of hear about elsewhere?

[13:52]Karin Tanabe: Yeah, I think one of the big themes is seeing what you're missing. I think, you know, in the suburbs, there's certainly that sort of like, oh, mom taking too many happy pills in the suburbs because she's so bored. But I think sometimes not seeing all this stuff all the time can be a little helpful. I remember when I first had a baby and I walked through the city, like, a Saturday morning and saw all these young women having brunch and just, like, the rage I felt against these poorest of women. I was like, damn, all of you able to have brunch. Pajamas, you know, unwashed hair of this baby who hasn't slept all night. I was like, what I wouldn't give for brunch. So I think that's a it's a hard part for Rina. Mean, sits at her window in 5th Avenue and watches people a lot and thinks about, you know, I used to be this woman and I'm so far away from this woman now. And also just the pulse of New York City post war and there was such an energy, right? Mean, things change. There was the cold war then and there were other difficulties, but this like, we made it out of the war. There's this jubilance to the city, but she experienced, you know, when she was a UN translator and now she's cut off from it. And that's

[15:03]Zibby Owens: tough for her. And even all the men and how you describe, like, their whole raging social life and all the available people who are, like, looking to meet her and the party, like, all that stuff. Yeah. I was like, oh, that sounds like fun.

[15:16]Karin Tanabe: Yeah. Rosemarie New York, I think, though, when I did my research, it sounded like so much fun. It's sort of like the way people talk about what life will be like after the pandemic, you know, or even after you get vaccinated. I remember going out and just being like, this is amazing. I have a new lease on life. You know,

[15:32]Zibby Owens: it's exciting. The problem with that is that not everybody's vaccinated. Like, you know, I still felt that way too, but it's not like the war is not over. Right. Right. It's definitely not over. I know. So I you know, But it's coming back. Coming back. Hopefully, hopefully soon. I hadn't heard about the Long Island Railroad crashes.

[15:52]Karin Tanabe: Yeah. Me neither. Sort of terrifying. Right? Yeah. Don't read this book on the Hill IR. Yeah. Right. Safety measures have gotten better. But yeah, so that came up because

[16:05]Zibby Owens: the United Nations used to be on Long Island, which I didn't know. Didn't know that either. Would have spared us a lot of traffic, by the way, for UN Week. It wouldn't be bad if it were still there, but just saying, okay, keep keep going.

[16:16]Karin Tanabe: Move it back out. Yeah. Yeah. So before it was in the heart of Manhattan, it was on Long Island. And the people who worked there took, you know, the Long Island Railroad to get to work. And one year, there was this horrible crash. I mean, reading about it and talking about, like, people were saying, it's just a sardine can filled with blood. I was like, well, that sounds horrible. Yeah. But it's also one another reason her Rina's husband wants her to stop working. He's saying Right. Now you're pregnant. This is dangerous. You know, you're going to quit your job anyway. This is just another reason

[19:35]Zibby Owens: So ironic too, when he, you know, he really wants her to quit and everything, and he's this like big shot pediatric surgeon and all the rest. And like, he's spending his whole life taking care of kids, and all she wants is for him to take care of their kids, right? And he can't she cannot get him to focus. It's like so cruel, really.

[19:53]Karin Tanabe: Yeah. That's kind of one of the reasons I made him a surgeon with kids. Was to sort of show like, you know, I'm I'm willing to spend all my time with these kids because it's But my my own kids, like, they just need to be raised by my wife, and that's fine. Yeah. Not so fine.

[20:10]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, super interesting. And I don't know. Even oh, wait. I wanted to ask you about the bruising. What was up with that? Did you hear like, with I'm not explaining myself. I'm speaking so informally.

[20:21]Karin Tanabe: I know what you're talking about. Okay. So Rina

[20:24]Zibby Owens: has a coping mechanism, which is sort of like digging her hands into her legs, right? Also sometimes digging in her fingernails into like the benches and like, you know, she has all this like pushing sort of, and it comes now she gets bruises. And her husband at one point finally is like, what are we going to do about this? And she didn't even know he kind of even noticed.

[20:44]Karin Tanabe: Where did that come from? Tell me about that. Yeah. So she's, you know, at the time, people didn't really talk about postpartum, but she's she's in it. I mean, she's really happy with it. And for her, it's it's self harming. You know, it's a coping mechanism sort of to take the pain of her mind and put it into her body. It's when I'm anxious or really nervous, it's something I do to a lesser extent, or I'll go on a run or I'll have to sprint down the block or something to just move the brain into the body. So it's definitely taken from, you know, a habit I've had for a while, but she takes it to an extreme where she really is self harming really to to think about her body. And for her, I also want to do it to be like, she's trying to get her body back, not in a like, oh, I wanna get my body back to look great sense, but in a like ownership way, you know, where she was pregnant back to back, she's been breastfeeding for years. She has these kids clawing all, you know, on her all day, as we all know, when we have young kids, and she just wants to possess herself again. And that's definitely part of that journey. Interesting.

[22:01]Zibby Owens: So tell me about your process and everything. And also, so you have a book that's being turned into a movie as well, like as we speak. So what is what's going on with that? Well, it's it's been a slow journey. We're not aided by COVID

[22:15]Karin Tanabe: at all. But my third book, The Gilded Years, which is about the first Black graduate of Vassar College. I also went to Vassar. She graduated in 1897, passed as white. And then her roommate at the very end found out she was Black, hired a private detective to follow her family around and tried to keep her from graduating. Oh, my gosh. Big scandal at the time. This is 1897, of course. A true story. And then a story that kind of got forgotten over the years. So I ended up turning it into a book and it came out in 2016 and it was almost bought. We had like all these great Hollywood calls and I was so excited. And then everybody disappeared. And I was like, But Hollywood, And then over almost two years later, a year and a half later, my agent called me and was like Reese Witherspoon called and she wants to buy your book. So I was thrilled that none of those other people had bought it because then Reese couldn't have bought it. So sometimes things happen for a reason. Wow. That's exciting. Very exciting. So is it what's this what stage is it in now? I think it's still in rewrites. It was written, rewritten, still there. But, hopefully, we'll get get moving faster now that well, who knows? I'm not gonna say anything about Hollywood, but hopefully, it'll just keep moving.

[23:34]Zibby Owens: This timing is I mean, I know that's so trite. Timing is everything. But, you know, I feel like there are forces at work. When like we want something and it doesn't happen then, it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Like, feels like it's never going to happen. But it might, it just might not be in that form at that time. Totally. And I've learned, I mean, I've learned patience.

[23:52]Karin Tanabe: Woman of Intelligence is my sixth book, and I've really learned that a lot of it is you just focus on the product and the next product and you try to make them good and they're out there and whatever happens, happens. So the more books you have, the more opportunities you have and it's kind of out of your hands. I mean, once it's optioned, it's not like you can just call them every day and be like, oh, great.

[24:13]Zibby Owens: How about that movie?

[24:16]Karin Tanabe: Even this is upset. Update question mark, question mark, question mark. I know there's a voice in my head that's like, Karen, let's be sane. So you keep yourself from doing that. But, yeah, you just you just never know. I mean, I I I hope this one ends up on the screen eventually. It's obviously a very emotional journey for me. So we shall see about that too. And are you working on another book now? Of course. Another pandemic baby. I have a book that's due at the end of August. So I'm I'm writing that well quicker and quicker every day.

[24:50]Zibby Owens: Can you say anything about it? We'll sneak through Yeah, it's set in the 1970s.

[24:55]Karin Tanabe: It's set in 1977 in Los Angeles and it's just fun. Honestly, it is like a celebration. It's like sex, drugs, and rock and roll. It's fun. I think after writing A Woman of Intelligence and the amount of, like, my own personal journey, pain with motherhood that I put in, I was like, okay. That has been done and now I need now I need to attend the party. So, yeah, this book is fun. That's awesome. Wow, I can't wait to read that. Where do you have the characters living in LA? Yeah, so mostly just like in the heart of LA on Sunset Strip is where a lot of the action happens. There's a vintage store that one of my characters owns on that street. So I've also been like, you know,

[25:41]Zibby Owens: going to parties and shopping through my mind in this book. Awesome. I used to live right off that strip for a couple of years right after college. It was super fun. Like, right there. I'm sure it was super fun. It was very fun. But I was like, if I'm gonna move to LA, and it was for this boy I was dating, I was like, we have to live somewhere that's as New York as possible.

[26:02]Karin Tanabe: Not Calabasas or Right. Yeah. Not Calabasas.

[26:05]Zibby Owens: I like never even went to the Valley. But no, I was like, I have to be able to walk. I have to walk to a bookstore. So, yeah. Anyway, well, that sounds awesome. So any advice for aspiring authors?

[26:18]Karin Tanabe: Don't do it. Just kidding. That was my dad's advice to me. So my dad Oh, were no. I know. He was an editor for the Washington Post Book World for the book section. Oh, no way. I mean, just surrounded by books. And honestly, how could I not become an author when that's how you grow up? But he was like, here's my advice. Don't become a writer. You'll be overworked and underpaid. And then he wasn't wrong per se. It's like if both your parents are hockey players, you played hockey your whole life and they're like, don't become a hockey player. You're like, but but what else would I do? So, no, my advice for aspiring writers, I think my advice is like at first, especially, maybe always, like, quantity over quality, because you can always get quality later. I think people get scared when their first drafts are bad or their first couple's paragraphs or pages are, quote unquote, bad. Like, they think, I can't do this and look at these sentences. They're not as polished as I want them to be. But like, you just got to kind of spit it out and then fix it later. And, you know, I just sent my draft of my new book to a friend and she was like, The beginning's great. Amazing. And I was like, Paul, I worked on the first four chapters for so long because that's what I said to my editor to read early. And it's like, Probably falls apart later because I haven't had time yet to work But on yeah, it's I always like in the process to painting, right? You have to do a sketch first and like Mona Lisa didn't look like the Mona Lisa when it was just like a pencil or whatever, charcoal, I don't know what they used back then, drawing. But it just takes like layers and layers and layers. So, yeah, don't be afraid to write badly, try to write a lot, try to write every day and then, and don't be intimidated by extremely good books. If you read a book and you're like, I can never do this and pick up a really bad book. Actually, I can do this.

[28:14]Zibby Owens: No problem. I'm I'm writing a memoir now, and it's also due at the end of August, by the way. Yes. Yeah. So and I I have, like, a draft I just sent in this weekend. But as I was, like, working on it, I read Sulaykah Jawad's Between Two Kingdoms. Have you read that book? No. I haven't Oh my god. It's so good. Anyway, it's like the heard only great things. It's such a beautiful memoir. And she's so anyway, so I literally I shouldn't even say this now. I emailed my editor. I was just like, I just read Solegate. Like, my book is terrible. Like, it's nothing like this book. This is the best book I've ever read. Like, my book is as if I'm talking to a friend, you know, just like this. I don't have like that story. And she's like, that's okay. That's not your voice. That's not your story. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna keep going. I can't tell that story, and I'm not her. And she's amazing. And I'm glad I can read it. But, like, we can't all write the books every book we wanna read. We all have to write the books we can write. Yeah.

[29:07]Karin Tanabe: My profound advice from, you know, halfway through this. That's I think I would give that advice too is like be genuine to your voice. I mean, I remember I tried to write once a book set in the South. And I am not from the South. I have never lived in the South, and I've spent very little time in the South. So I don't know if it possessed me to think I could write something set in the South. I mean, you know, I live in DC. Like, I go to Virginia, but it's the South, South. And it just it did not work. I mean, luckily, I'm able to self edit enough that I was like, Wow, this is horrible. And you will never see a book from me set in the South because I don't know it, and I can't do it. So and people will from the South would be like, well, you're you're definitely not from here, you know? And I'm not saying like, oh, you have to know your world so intimately or anything. But like, once you start with a voice, like, it just has to feel genuine enough.

[30:01]Zibby Owens: Totally. Well, I think you should figure out how to sell some of these dresses or, like, have a party where we all show up wearing this All them. Or maybe you've already done that and I wasn't invited because I'm just meeting you now. Maybe you wouldn't have wanted to invite me anyway. We should go to like Tavern on the Green in these like amazing

[30:20]Karin Tanabe: color coded outfits with the gloves and the whole shebang and like have it be like a costume party or something. I mean, I would love that so much. Yeah. The only rule is that all of your clothes must be the exact same color because she has a yellow dress, yellow gloves, a yellow coat, and a yellow bag. And I'm just gonna assume she's wearing yellow shoes. Yeah. Which I remember getting it and being like, that's a lot of yellow, and then being like, and I love it. Yeah. I love it. And now it really pops. So I am I am all for this. I have not had any parties or any outings as claimers as that lately. So There we go. Okay. In the fall. Yeah. That'll be fun. Invite all your intelligent friends. It could be like a All my women women of intelligence. Yeah.

[31:02]Zibby Owens: Are you a woman of intelligence? Come to this party. Okay. Alright. Not like you need more help on marketing this book. But anyway No. I I I always take help. Well, congratulations. It was really fantastic. I truly enjoyed reading it, and it was great to meet you. It was great to meet you too, and good luck with your memoirs. I'm Thank you. Can't wait to read it. Thank you. They won't be like Sue Lekis. So

[31:26]Karin Tanabe: Amazing in their own way. I mean, that's what you have to remember. Every think about all the books you like and how different they are. That's true. Take a good look at it. Okay.

[31:35]Zibby Owens: Thanks. Talk to you soon. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibby owens dot com, and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.