Ashley C. Ford, SOMEBODY'S DAUGHTER: A Memoir

[2:03]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time To, a Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast.

[2:50]Zibby Owens: Welcome, Ashley. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to talk about Somebody's Daughter, a memoir that I found time to read.

[2:59]Ashley C. Ford: Thank you so much for Oh having

[3:02]Zibby Owens: my gosh. It's a thrill. It's so neat when I read a memoir and then I get to interview the person, like, right then. It just it, like, does not get old for me. It's, like, amazing, especially yours, which is so powerful and moving in so many different ways and well written and just, like, soulful and horrifying and inspiring and all the things that a memoir should really be. So, wow.

[3:25]Ashley C. Ford: Thank you. That's really, really kind of you to say. And I think that that's one of my favorite things too as an interviewer is when I learn something new about a person or just get to read something or experience something they've done. And then I immediately get to interview them. There's almost nothing better better than that. Right? It's coolest feeling.

[3:46]Zibby Owens: Amazing. So here we are. So for people who aren't familiar with your memoir yet, would you mind giving a little summary of both what you I mean, I can't say what it's about. It's like your entire life story. But what made you even write this memoir to begin with and what that whole thing was like? So many questions. Start there, I guess. Yeah, please. I wrote this memoir because

[4:11]Ashley C. Ford: I had really strong memories from when I was a child, really clear and consistent memories about what it was like to feel helpless. And also like there were a lot of secrets being kept around me. And the process of slowly unraveling some of the truths around those secrets and deciding what they meant to me, what they didn't mean to me, and how they were going to change the way I lived my life, if at all. So it is definitely a book about hard things, assault, incarceration, abuse, violence. But it's also a book about hopeful and joyful things like love and family and forgiveness and moving on.

[5:08]Zibby Owens: Wow. Beautiful. One of the parts that I loved was the relationship you had with your grandmother because I just you know, I was always really close to my grandmother. I love watching people's relationships sort of intergenerational sort of develop in memoir on the page, whatever. And then I realized as you well, I didn't realize. You pointed out, your grandmother was only like in her forties when she had all these grandchildren. I'm thinking that's like, I can barely deal with my own kids in my forties. And she had, what, like nine grandkids or something crazy. Because when you think about grandmother, first I think, you know, an older lady, just your grandmother was like a not old at all, and yet look what she was Oh

[5:50]Ashley C. Ford: Absolutely.

[5:51]Zibby Owens: So tell me about one matriarch. Right? I mean, the power and, like, how being able to manage all of that, all of how she took care of you. Like, all so tell me a little more about your relationship with her because, you know, it comes sort of full circle. Anyway.

[6:07]Ashley C. Ford: My relationship with my grandmother is one of the strongest relationships I've ever had in my entire life. I don't have memories before her, which I think is true for quite a few people with their grandparents. But I don't know that everybody got to spend as much time with their grandparent as I did. My grandma and I lived together, just the two of us really, for a year. The first year of school that I ever had, you know, like I was with her. We were just bonded in a way that not only felt real, but everybody else commented on. Like everybody was always bringing up how close the two of us were to the two of us. And it was just like, yeah, well, you know, that's the way it is, you know, like, and despite all those other grandkids, you know, my grandma who I love, but who definitely suffered from a lack of tact, did not hesitate to make it clear that like, yeah, but this is my favorite one. Yeah, I have all these grandkids, but this one is clearly my favorite. She made me feel special. It's always special to be somebody's favorite. But there's something about being a grandparents favorite that I think you just never, it puts something inside of you, like a little sparkle, a little ember, a little flame that is really, really hard to put out, despite any and all other circumstances in your life. I think when you're a grandparents favorite and you know it, it's you always feel like you have access to a little bit of magic that other people don't have access to. Totally.

[7:58]Zibby Owens: Not to upset my cousins or anything, but I was also apparently my grandmother. Maybe they're probably not listening. Yeah. In fact, you could have called it somebody's granddaughter too. I mean, really. Absolutely.

[8:11]Ashley C. Ford: But you know, even my grandmother told my mother that she felt like I was her daughter sometimes.

[8:18]Zibby Owens: Well, your mother was so erratic and emotionally inaccessible and, you know, I mean, everything your grandmother's like, the stability of love that you received from her was so counter to your mother. And I mean, the scenes that you described, Ashley, oh my gosh, my heart was breaking for you as a kid. Like, just and also the inconsistency of it. Right? Like, unpredictability. You know, it's like, you know, like, like in science experiments, you know, like variable reinforcement versus consistent. It's like, that's the most potent of all is when you don't know. And so you, like, keep coming back. And that's a thing that I feel like stays with with you long after. If not to mention the Yes. The violence behind some of her actions and the betrayals and oh my gosh. Yeah. I think the hardest part for me as a kid, you know, and and even the hardest part of working on those parts of the book years later,

[9:19]Ashley C. Ford: was realizing that even then, I knew that all of that stuff was coming from fear. Like it was so clear to me that my mom was afraid of the world in a way that I was not. And to be fair, my mom had been pretty early on in her life traumatized by the world over and over again. And she had a mother who reinforced that. My grandmother was always very, look out for what everybody is thinking or saying about you. Look out for this, look out for that. And my mom was just kind of like a ball of paranoia. And the way that that played out for us wasn't good and it wasn't fair. But I think the thing that was hardest was knowing that it's like, it would be different if this was just anger or just cruelty because at least then I could hate you. At least then I could think, the first chance I get, I'm getting away from this and I will never look back. I'm the kind of person who if I feel like somebody is just that evil, cruel thing about them, they want to hurt, they want to harm, I'm like, get that away from me. But there was this other thing I saw in my mom. And that was why it was so hard for me to separate enough to feel like my own person. Was because I saw that thing in her that I was like, that's fear. That's not like, you don't hate me. I don't even think you like the way you're acting right now. I don't think you like the way you're behaving right now. And it's so sad to me that you feel like you have to. And that I see that as a child when I look at you, that you feel like you have to be this way. And I don't think you do.

[11:30]Zibby Owens: You were like a little child therapist. You needed to like sit her down and, you know, like, I mean, that's a Right. Lot But you don't know that. No. I know. But that's a lot for a young child to to take on and to notice and to, you know, subconsciously deal with. I mean, the the fact that I mean, I feel like the way you wrote about her with such nuance and this sense of forgiveness, really, with I mean, right? You're still talking about how you chitchat on the phone and, you know, it's like Yeah. You're still close. You you've I don't know. Being able to forgive all that, I I don't know how you Well I don't know. I'm not even asking you questions. I'm just like opining here, but No. That's okay. I it's cool. Like, I like talking about it because, you know, that's the thing is that, like, we're not close. Mhmm. We we've never been close. Yeah. Our relationship

[12:21]Ashley C. Ford: has, you know, it's easy because we, I mean, we very familiar with each other like obviously, but it's not close. Like my mom doesn't really know about like my hopes and dreams and the inner workings of my mind and emotions. And nor does she ask about those things. And if I ask her about those things, it makes her afraid. And it always has. Now she'll tell you that it makes her afraid because what if I write about it? But I've been asking these questions long before I was ever a writer and the response hasn't changed much in any context. So we're not really close, we're friendly. I feel friendly with my mother for the most part. And I do love her. But the type of mother daughter closeness that I think a lot of people experience or want to experience, that's not what we have. And, you know, that's not what we have in the book. Yeah, I think there's some interesting things to be said about forgiveness and what that looks like in reality. Because in my reality, well, you know, I always imagined, I guess, or the fantasy of forgiveness was me like having some moment with my mom where suddenly we connect and we see each other and we realize that we both want to do better and be better. And we're going to work on it together. And it's gonna like, everything's going to change and it's going to be better and we're going to figure it out, right? That's like the fantasy of forgiveness. The reality of forgiveness is that I just had to figure out what loving my mom just as she is looks like. Not wishing or hoping for her to be anything different. Just as she is, the person she is today, the person she's been, informed by the person she's been. What does that look like for me to love her? And it doesn't look like the fantasy. But it looks like something that works. It looks like boundaries that allow me to love her and myself at

[14:58]Zibby Owens: the same time. Wow. That's so it's just so mature. I feel like there's this deep no, seriously, I feel like, you know, there's this like embedded wish that you're an imperfect mother will change. Right? Like Mhmm. You just come back to the well like another few times, maybe this time, you know? Mhmm. Like, let me try again. Like, it's hard to wrap your mind around having the person who's supposed to be the most loving turns out they're not capable of that. That's like a lot to wrap your head up. It is. You know? And It it So It is.

[15:37]Ashley C. Ford: And It I've been in therapy for a long time wrapping my head around it. A long time. I've spent a lot of money wrapping my head around it. I am in a practice, of every week spending deliberate time wrapping my head around that fact. It's not something that just rises and like, oh, I've become so enlightened that now I don't need this validation or I don't need this from this parent. I can set this boundary and effortlessly go about my life. It's not like that. It's definitely having moments of crushing devastation that you're not gonna get the fantasy. That no matter how well you dreamed up that fantasy, no matter how many details you added to it, no matter how long you've held onto it, you're not gonna get the fantasy. And you have to allow yourself to feel devastated by that in order to move forward in your life. Like I was so avoiding the devastation of giving up the fantasy, even as I knew it was not going to come to pass, that I was not allowing myself to like see myself differently, to move forward in my life, to do things that matched the way I saw myself or wanted to see myself. It was so hard for me to do that because I still needed to like stay. I still needed to like almost like stay stuck because if I move, what if I move in the wrong direction? And then who's gonna love me? Who's gonna show up for me? Who's gonna be the person who's like, number one has my back no matter what? Everybody tells you that's your mama. That's supposed to be your mama. The number one person who has your back. So what happens when it's not your mama? Then you learn the truth that like pretty much all along it was you. Like you were the one who had to have your back. And that if you trusted yourself to have your back, it would make a lot more sense to let go of the fantasy of the person who won't or who can't in some cases, You know? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[21:37]Zibby Owens: Do you feel like as a result, you still feel like you can find that elsewhere? Or do you do are you satisfied with it internally? Like, I like, do you feel like there's this, like, external validation that you're seeking that like, the praise or the you know, all that sort of unmitigated just love, I guess, really. But Yeah. Praise and all of Absolutely. Search, like, externally

[22:05]Ashley C. Ford: for that. Yes. We need that. It's weird that we act like we don't need that or like we shouldn't need that from each other because clearly we do. Clearly we do. Okay? And trying to dress it up differently, judging it, isn't doing anything. Judging a need is pointless. It's super pointless, who cares? Who cares if it's good or bad or wrong or right or anything? It can't be any of those things because it's a need. And we do need it. We need to be in community with each other. We need to be connected to one another. We need to feel seen by one another, recognized, considered. It's important and it is a need in order for us to feel safe and feeling safe. The relative safety that we absolutely could offer each other is a need. It is an unmet need, but it's a need. Don't think there's anything wrong with needing validation and community and connection. I have people who mother me. I have people who nurture me. I have people who care for me and love me in all the ways that I dreamed of and then forced myself to stop dreaming of so that I didn't get hurt. And then had to find my way back to so that I could allow myself to be loved that way. I have all of that in my life right now. My mother loves me. I do have her love. It is not necessarily the way I want to be loved. And it is not necessarily the way I need to be loved, me as I am. But that doesn't mean that I can't find that love in a myriad of ways, not just from within myself, but also from the community that I choose and the people that I choose to have around me. Morning, right before I got on here with you, I had two house guests leave. And they're both people who I've been friends with since I was 11 years old. One of them who's like one of my most close friends in the world, he moved away when we were 15 years old. So for the past almost twenty years, having moved away, two kids who can't afford flights and things like that. We've been friends this entire time. Wow. This entire time. That person's love, how it fills me up. And because I have people like that in my life, because I have a husband who cares for me and considers me and loves me every day, a dog, friends, colleagues, like they're all different kinds of love. But I let that flow into me and I put it back out into the world and I don't feel like I'm missing out. Yes, it does hurt sometimes that I don't have the fantasy relationship with my mom. I would never pretend it doesn't hurt. But I don't know, it just like that pain is super worth it to just feel and let myself, like I said, feel devastated by it. Because when I let myself feel devastated by that pain, the people I reach out to, to help me get back to myself, find my way back to myself if I need it, are people who love me so much and so deeply that like, I end up just feeling grateful that I have them.

[26:12]Zibby Owens: You know, it's almost like grief, right? At some point, you have to it's like you lost your mom or the ideal of it. And then like, this is what would happen if you actually lost your mom. Right? The people would rise up in the community. Like, you could say all the same things. And yet when you have a mother who, you know, isn't able to to be the person, you don't get that layer of social acceptance. Right? You can't say. Right. Like you still have a mom. Like, what are you gonna say? So

[26:42]Ashley C. Ford: Yeah. It's like I have yes. I do have a mom. And sometimes being in relationship

[26:49]Zibby Owens: with her hurts me. Mhmm. I don't know. I think I I need to find your therapist. She sounds amazing. I feel like, first of all, you need to split the proceeds of the book with the therapist. And second of all, you need her like you need to like post her information so you can help all the people out there with complicated mother daughter relationships. So yeah. I would if I didn't have this possessive quality about me. Of course, you're not going to. No. I I is very much like, it's mine. No. Keep her. She's it's great. You're a great match. Do you feel like sort of that need to be seen and recognized and validated has been met with the book coming out and the success of the book? I know it's sort of nascent, but, like, is that sort of meeting, filling that same bucket, if you will? Weirdly, I'm going to be honest. I think

[27:38]Ashley C. Ford: that need had sort of been fulfilled before the book. And I spent a lot of time working on my ability to recognize that. And I had to do that before the book came out because I was really worried. What I didn't want was for the book to come out and for me to be in a place where the success or failure of the book would change my perception of who I am. I was really, really worried that that would happen. So I spent quite a bit of time before the book came out, before I even finished the book, before I could finish the book honestly. Getting to a place where I could say, this is the book I want it to be. And no matter how it is received, I feel good about who I am. And only then could I really like finish the book and then send it out into the world. So the success and all of that is fantastic. It feels amazing. And I'm really, really glad that I spent time working on my ability to feel it. Because this is honestly the first time in my life that I've created something that I've been really, really proud of. And that something that came from me. It is a collaboration, but it's not like you know, a podcast that I did with somebody else. It's not partnering with some company to create something together. Like this was my story from my brain that I had to sit down and write. And I'm so glad that I did. And I feel so proud. And for the first time in my life, I emotionally, I can feel that. Not just think, Oh, this is something I can be proud of, but actually feel in my body, am proud, smiling and sitting up straighter, I am proud. That is a completely different experience than years of disassociating on and off and scrambling here and there and being in survival mode. And now that I've had enough stability to be able to have that I'm proud feeling, I want that for everybody. I want it for everybody. I just feel like that's what I want now in life is I just think everybody should have the opportunity to feel really proud of what they've done and feel it fully in their body. Well, now you just have to get Oprah to

[30:25]Zibby Owens: pick up even more books and Yeah. Come on, Everyone should be so so proud justifiably. Can I ask oh gosh? We're almost out of time and I had so many more questions. Oh, that's okay. Just quickly, what are things like with your dad now? Can I even ask that? Yeah. Absolutely.

[30:44]Ashley C. Ford: They're good. I just saw him this past weekend. We had breakfast and we talked the whole time and it was great. Getting to know each other has been really lovely. Watching him navigate life after thirty years in prison has been at times really tough, but it has also been inspiring in certain ways. Yeah. He's a pretty good guy. And getting to know him has been a gift for me.

[31:18]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Well, I had a thousand other things I wanted to say in quotes to read and all that. But instead I had to like, you know, just like I don't know. Anyway, thank you for opening up and discussing the book. And, you know, I'm just I'm so happy for you that you are feeling so proud and it's so deserved. And I am just, like, so rooting for you having gone through all of this and knowing sort of what you're overcoming and, you know, just know that I am part of that big community of people sort of lifting you up from the sidelines. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Like it's like

[31:57]Ashley C. Ford: I said, the response has been really amazing. Every interview, everything, it's all been different, but good. And so thank you for being part of that. Like thank you for once again allowing me to have an experience that is positive and beautiful and also just challenging in all the best ways.

[32:25]Zibby Owens: You've been a great interviewer and this has been a really great time. I know I ramble. Thank you. No, I love your I mean, not rambling. I want to hear what you have to say. That's why I'm here. You. That was really nice you didn't have to say that, but thank you. All right. Well My pleasure. Stay in touch. Good luck. And I can't wait to see what happens next for you. Thank you. Okay. Bye, Ashley. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.