Suleika Jaouad, BETWEEN TWO KINGDOMS: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted

[1:49]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. If all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast.

[5:22]Zibby Owens: Welcome, Sueleka. Thank you for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Between A Memoir of a Life Interrupted.

[5:30]Suleika Jaouad: Thank you, Zippy. I'm so excited to be here. I literally am like overwhelmed by anticipation

[5:36]Zibby Owens: at being able to talk to you. I inhaled this memoir. I just like feel all this love towards you, though. Don't know you and like, I have so much respect for you as a writer and the way you did this memoir. I am just like over the moon about it. So anyway, congratulations. Not that you need this from me. I know it's already been a bestseller, but I just, I was so moved and you're so amazing.

[6:00]Suleika Jaouad: Putting that Well, out the love is mutual. I have been a longtime fan and it's such a joy to be here with you. Okay.

[6:08]Zibby Owens: For those who don't know what Between Two Kingdoms is about, would you give like the quickie summary of it, please? Sure.

[6:15]Suleika Jaouad: So Between Two Kingdoms is a memoir and it tells the story of my 20s, which were a very eventful decade in my life, as they are for lots of people. But it's really the story of my time in the kingdom of the sick. I was diagnosed with leukemia when I was 22. But more than that, it's about what happened after and about what we do when our lives are upended and we have to figure out how to live again and what that looks like and what the way forward is going to be. So this book was chronicling that journey from

[6:57]Zibby Owens: the kingdom of the sick back towards the kingdom of the well and the kind of in between place that I found myself in. Wow. So I know that along the way you had been writing in your journal because you tell us in the book that you have been doing that. The first inkling that this would become a book is when, for the reader at least, is when you visit a psychic, and I can't remember where, maybe New Mexico or something, who says that you will write a book one day. And obviously, you had been publishing your column in the New York Times and even won an Emmy for the videos that accompanied it. When did you know that you were gonna write a book about your experience? Or did you kind of know all along? I think like a lot of writers,

[7:36]Suleika Jaouad: I'm always, you know, I it was always my dream to write a book, to hopefully write many books. But when I came out of cancer treatment after nearly four years, I was determined to write about anything other than illness. I had lived enough cancer. I had written about it. I felt like I had told that story in the form that I needed to, which was New York Times column. And I was desperate to move forward with my life and to move forward from this experience. And I certainly didn't want to spend the next couple of years of my life writing about it. And I actually had a really pivotal conversation with Cheryl Strayed in which I told her this. I said, I really want to write something new. I don't know what that's going to be, but I know what I don't want to write about, which is illness. And she said, well, the funny thing about that is that when I went to go write wild, I knew I wanted to write about this hike, but I didn't want to write about grieving my mother. And of course, the book is about her hike, but it's all about grieving her mother. And what she left me with was this, which is that we tell the story we need to tell, and we have no business trying to avoid it. And that really opened something up for me. And I realized that maybe the subject of my book was the subject that was very much on my mind at that time, which was how we move forward when our lives are upended by a trauma. So it wasn't necessarily the book that I expected to write, but it was the one that I needed to write. Wow.

[9:16]Zibby Owens: Well, apparently, it's the one that we all need to read as well because, my gosh, it's just so good. You know, there was so much in the book about Will, I feel like your feelings for him, even by the end, were not, and I don't want to, like, necessarily give anything away, but just not resolved. Right? I felt like you had so much guilt and so much, you know, what's so, not overthinking, but where you, like, replay what could have been, what could have been, and then you reach a place where you're like, that's not healthy. I should stop. But yet it's still kind of like lingers. So I was just wondering, and I know you're, you know, I can see from Instagram and everything and from the end of your book, what your life is like now. But do you ever do you still sort of wrestle with that? Do you still think that do you put blame on yourself? Or do you like, where do you feel about the whole situation now? And like, are you two even still in touch? And I know that's not even his real name, but I'm just so curious.

[10:08]Suleika Jaouad: So Will was my boyfriend who I'd been dating only for a couple of months when I got sick. And he was very much there for me for a lot of my illness. And I wanted to write about that relationship because there was no way to write about my illness and what happened after without talking about the people who were crucial to my ability to survive it. And he was very much one of those people. But I think I'm also interested in writing about complicated relationships. Of course, we've all gone through breakups where we want not just a sense of closure, but hopefully a sense of mutual reconciliation, some kind of peace summit. And Will and I were never able to achieve that together. And it was challenging in terms of the writing because in writing, we naturally want a sense of resolution. But as I was working on it, it occurred to me that there's also an opportunity there, which was to write about these relationships where maybe we don't ever feel a sense of closure. And I suspect, just from talking to my girlfriends, that there are a lot of us who have had relationships like that. And that you know they ended and that it's for the best, but that there's also a kind of ongoingness in terms of untangling what it meant and how to achieve that sense of reconciliation, even when it's not possible to achieve it with someone else. But you have to yourself. So a lot of the book is about healing from illness, but it's also about the kind of imprints of traumas on our relationships and the ways they can can fracture them, but can also create these these moments and opportunities for for a kind of depth and and a weird beauty that wouldn't be possible without them. Wow.

[12:16]Zibby Owens: I mean, I feel like so much with relationships, especially in your twenties and younger, when you're just sort of starting out, there's so much about timing. Right? And you you referenced this like many times, like, what if I had met John a couple months later? What if I had met Will? Like what if, you know, and your brain just sort of like naturally goes there, right? Because you're like, well, this might be the perfect person, but dot dot dot. But then you can't isolate those variables. I mean, that's sort of how you end up marrying one person versus the other. It's like when you meet and where you are right then, but that's sort of an unsettling feeling. Right? What about soulmates? What about like destiny? But really timing? I don't know. There's

[12:58]Suleika Jaouad: Well, I think that question of timing and of uncertainty informs so many aspects of being in your twenties, even in terms of, you know, what internship you take or what job you have fresh out of college. And there's this sense that you're maybe marching or working towards something, but also this sense that you could have chosen many other paths. And so I think a lot of the book wrestling with what it means to swim in that ocean of uncertainty. But of course, we all do, but that feels especially true when you're in your 20s and you're very much figuring out who you are and what you want to do and how you want to participate in the world and what kind of partner you want alongside you for all of that. And yeah, I mean,

[13:57]Zibby Owens: are the eternal questions, I think, for all of us. There must be research, and I should just like Google this when we get off the phone, or get off the Zoom. But sort of the effect of trauma at different life stages, like what happens if you have trauma and like as a child, like in your twenties, thirties, forties, fifties? Because it the way you process it changes so much. Right? And I feel but I feel like there's some intensity to it, particularly in your twenties. I don't know. This is just my 2¢. It's so true. And I think being in your early twenties is its own in between place. You're no longer a kid, but you're not a fully formed adult yet.

[14:34]Suleika Jaouad: Although my 22 year old self would have insisted that I knew that I was absolutely an adult and did not need help from anyone and knew exactly what I was doing. But it's this liminal space. And I think when you undergo a trauma or you get diagnosed with an illness in your early 20s, it is a really different experience. Because for me, at 22, I was fresh out of college. I had a sense of what I wanted to do. But I didn't have a fully formed career yet. I didn't have my own family yet. I didn't have years and years of a relationship to create a baseline to return to. So everything was in the first draft form. And what that meant for me when I emerged from this illness was that I didn't have a life necessarily to return to. At that point, I was 27. And I very quickly realized I couldn't go back to being the person I had been pre diagnosis. And I certainly wasn't a cancer patient anymore, but I also didn't know who I was, which was an unsettling feeling at 27. But more than that, I think the thing that I arrived at was that as much as I wanted to move on from those difficult years, I took compartmentalize those traumatic experience and stow them in the past and to skip over the hard work of healing and grieving and uncovering who you are, that moving on is a kind of myth. We have to move forward with those experiences and integrate them into our present as we kind of take baby steps toward whatever it is that comes next.

[16:21]Zibby Owens: Wow. You wrote so beautifully also about all the other cancer patients you met along the way and how they became your family. I wonder if I dog eared that page. I dog eared like so many. I'll have to find some quotes to read in a second. But how part of what you felt sort of fell on your plate afterwards was this responsibility to live sort of all caps because so many people you journeyed with along the way weren't there, and why you? Then you talked a little about PTSD and sort of the same sense of like, if you've survived something, you know, it's like a it like it sounded to me like a a war scenario. Right? You feel you've made it and like three out of seven three out of 10, make it why you, what should you do with that knowledge? And that's why you feel like in pursuit of some of these goals. And I just like, you know, in my twenties, I lost my best friend and roommate on 09/11. And I'm not, you know, this is no comparison, but just the sense that like, I got to live and Stacy didn't get to live, like makes me every day still and I'm in my mid forties now, like, okay, well, what am I doing here? Like she disappeared into thin air one day and I didn't. So where does that leave me? Like, is this why I work so, you know, like, is that where it all comes from? You know, like, because what do you do when life suddenly becomes like something that you've been, it's like being given twice or something.

[17:42]Suleika Jaouad: I so understand that feeling. And I think when you confront mortality, either yourself or by way of a loved one's death, there's this heightened awareness, as Joan Didion writes, that life can change in an ordinary instant. And I think with that awareness comes a sense of responsibility to make your life something exceptionally to make of your life something exceptional, even if it's in a small way, to not just be a kind of passive passenger in your life, but to really feel the full weight and privilege of what it means to be alive and to be a human being. And I definitely felt that. I also lost my best friend Melissa, who I'd met in treatment, who died the same month that I finished cancer treatment. And I had this double sense of guilt, of course, that I was here and she was not, and trying to make sense of that, which I still can't make sense of, I don't think I will ever make sense of. But also this feeling that I had fought so hard to survive these treatments. And I think when I emerged from that experience, I felt a huge amount of pressure to be grateful, to be alive, to be doing all the things that I'd wanted to do and hadn't been able to do. But at the same time, I was also grieving and I was probably more lost than I've ever been. And so that sense of dissonance between what should be and what was, and how I felt I should be living my life and the realities of what it meant to carry the wreckage of that sorrow and that loss was really difficult for me to make sense of. And we talk about reentry in the context of veterans coming back from war or incarceration. But I don't think we talk about it as much in the context of grief or of surviving a traumatic experience like illness. And you can't just jump into whatever comes next or start living your life in technical or as much as we'd all like to. And that was my work for that first year out of my treatment and out of losing Melissa was actually understanding that as much as I wanted to be living this wonderful, happy, meaningful life, that that process of grieving and recovery was going to be a kind of brutal act of self discovery, and that it wasn't always going to feel fun or pleasant

[20:45]Zibby Owens: in the way that maybe I wanted it to. I'm so sorry for your loss in Melissa. And the greatest part of this is that you totally brought her to life for for me and for anybody who reads this book. Right? None of us would have necessarily met her. And that's one of the great things about memoir, I think. It's like you just conjured her up. And now, to be honest, I'm like, I want to find pictures of Melissa because now I have such an image in my head because you painted such a clear picture of her. But you brought her to life. And like, it's like real sorcery to be able to do that. Really? All of a sudden, she's like dancing in my mind and, you know, it's amazing. Like, you put her there. It's just the coolest. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just think the power of of sharing stories in this format is just otherworldly.

[23:45]Suleika Jaouad: Well, and I think it's one of the great joys of of writing. I got to to live in that world with those people for the duration of the time I was writing the book. I got to be jumping over subway turnstiles and getting stopped by the cops with Melissa. And I got to be going on these adventures that we went together with. And it is a wonderful sorcery.

[24:08]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Just like and you're bringing the ashes at the end and I didn't even know that about the Taj Mahal. Oh my gosh. All this stuff in here is like, I learned so much. Not to mention, like, the power of doing a project for a hundred days, whatever it is. Like, just even adopting that as a strategy after this, like, sounds like, like, oh, what can I do for a hundred days that would, like, change my life and be really interesting, amazing? Well, let me just read, a quote or two so people who are listening who might not know you can get a sense of like what an incredible writer you are. This is just one sentence. For the person facing death, mourning begins in the present tense in a series of private preemptive goodbyes that take place long before the body's last breath. God, you're so good. Let me find something else. What I do is I dog ear a page and then I hope that I can figure out why I dog eared it when I go back to it. I do the same thing. Well, oh, I like this too a lot. I mean, liked all of it. So this is, in Will's absence, began spending more time with the cancer crew without my ever having to ask for anything or explain. They understood I was in a lowdown place. Erica made sweatshirts with the words Team Susu printed across the front in varsity lettering, and Kristen accompanied me to urgent care or to my chemo appointments so I wouldn't have to be alone. Max was always showing up at my apartment with 99¢ slices of pizza and expertly rolled joints, and Melissa rallied the troops organizing game nights, dance parties, the occasional outing. A hiccup of genetics had brought us together, all of us bound by rogue malignant cells and a heightened sense of our mortality. But at some point we'd become more than circumstantial friends, we were family. Oh, it makes me want to cry this whole thing. One last paragraph. Grief is a ghost that visits without warning. It comes in the night and rips you from sleep. It fills your chest with shards of glass. It interrupts you mid laugh when you're at a party, chastising you that just for a moment you've forgotten. It haunts you until it becomes a part of you, shadowing you breath for breath.

[26:08]Suleika Jaouad: My God, you're so good.

[26:11]Zibby Owens: Thank you. It's also moving. So once you finished your journey across the country and writing this book, maybe go back to writing the book. What happened after the journey across the country? Did you sit down and like write it all at once or what happened next?

[26:27]Suleika Jaouad: Yeah. So I left home on this 15,000 mile solo road trip that I say with a laugh because now that I'm a slightly more seasoned driver, I think back on that and see what madness it was. But I returned from that trip and went up to Vermont. My family has a tiny little cabin in the woods that has no cell reception. And I spent the next six months there working on this book. And by working on it, I, you know, like a lot of first time authors, very daunted by the task of trying to synthesize all these experiences and all these memories and to find some kind of structure to contain them. So I began with 20 scenes. And I just wrote these 20 scenes on the stream of consciousness without necessarily worrying about why certain memories or certain details were appearing. And then I tried to figure out the connective tissue between them. So that was what I did. And I had a post it note above my desk with these words that someone had shared with me that said, if you want to write a good book, write what you don't want others to know about you. If you want to write a great book, write what you don't want to know about yourself. Oh, that's so good. And so I really, you know, wanted to write a different kind of illness memoir or recovery memoir and wanted to challenge myself to excavate the truth behind the truth behind the truth. We all have these stories that we tell either to ourselves or to others about how certain things went, and I wanted to dig below the surface of that. And so this book is the culmination of many drafts of many attempts to excavate the truth behind the truth behind the truth. And yeah, it took me about three and a half years all in all. And I really feel like I grew up in the process of writing this book, not just as an individual, but as a writer. Wow.

[28:51]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. And do you still are you still writing? Like, do you still chronicle all of your stuff personally in your journal? I know you write professionally.

[29:00]Suleika Jaouad: You know, tell me what your what's, like, your current life like? Yeah. So I do write in my journal. That's the first thing I do every morning. It's the first thing I've done for years and years and years. And I've been working on a next book idea, which has been fun. I'm still trying to carve out the space to properly focus on it. But I feel like for a lot of writers, I work in seasons. I have a season of researching or daydreaming about a book, and then a season of drafting it, and then editing it, and then putting it out into the world. So I'm still in the mode of trying to usher between two kingdoms out into the world, but I'm itching to to get started on on my next big project. Wow.

[29:49]Zibby Owens: So amazing. What did you not put in? Like, what did you not leave? What did you not put in the book? What, like, got cut out? Or what did you decide you couldn't put in or something like that?

[29:59]Suleika Jaouad: That's such a good question. So I had about a 60 page chapter in part two of the book that took place on the road trip. And I, at the time, was sharing drafts with my friend, the author Melissa Phibos. And I shared it with her, and I said, I'm really worried that this could be hurtful to someone I care about. And she said, okay, well, you have to share it with them, but not right now. Keep writing. So I kept writing and writing and writing, and I got to the end of the book and my manuscript was due. And I called my friend Melissa and she said, did you share those 60 pages? And I said, I can't. I don't think I can do it. I just yeah. I don't think I can. And she said, alright. Cut it. And so I deleted the 60 pages and I sent the book off to my editor and nobody ever noticed, which was a great shock to me, but also a great lesson. That sometimes you need to write through something in order to get to the next part. But there's always the version of the book you write for yourself and the version of the book you share with others. Those two can be very, very different. But I think often, with Mymar, the question of how we write about others and how we do so in a way that feels fair and loving and doesn't kind of unwittingly hurt someone's feeling is the thing that prevents a lot of people from writing in the first person at all. And so realizing that I could write and remove that worry and then make decisions later was really liberating for me. So there's a lot that's not in the book that I had to write for myself in order to get to the pieces that needed to be in the book, which I realized is very vague and then unfair, maybe cliffhanger.

[31:58]Zibby Owens: No. I mean, love what I love how you described it. I mean, just because I don't know. Just those intermediate steps are just because it doesn't make its way in, it doesn't mean it's not required. Right? I feel like that's so often writers say that it's a waste of time, the stuff that doesn't get in the book or that they throw away, but it's not because you couldn't possibly progress without it. So how is that a waste?

[32:23]Suleika Jaouad: Well, and I will say this, I have a document on my laptop called chop file, where I put all the pieces of, you know, the scraps of drafts that end up on the cutting floor. And things always end up working their way into a next project, even if it's not necessarily the sentences themselves, but maybe one unanswered question that leads me to write an essay or to write a reported piece. And so I really believe that none of it is wasted, and I live by that. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to write because it would be too depressing to think about the months and months spent undrafted. I have never seen the light of day.

[33:04]Zibby Owens: Okay. At the towards the end of the book, you have a visit with a man who is on death row who had written you at the beginning of the book, and you can tell in your story how moved you were by that whole experience. And then on Instagram, like, what's happened in between? Because now you were passionately trying to help another man who was on death row. Has this become

[33:25]Suleika Jaouad: a thing for you? Like, tell me, like, how did we get here? What happened with that storyline of your life? Yeah. So one of the first letters I ever received in response to my column was from a man on death row who went by the nickname of Little GQ. His name is Quentin Jones. And he wrote me this beautiful handwritten letter reflecting on the unexpected parallels between our lives of isolation and facing mortality. You know, me in my hospital room bubble and him on death row in Texas. And so he and about 20 something other people ended up forming my itinerary on the road. I didn't just want to go on a three month road trip by myself, but I really wanted to seek out people who had had their own big reckonings, who had had to navigate their own aftermaths. And he was one of them and and probably the most memorable stop on my trip. And I had never been to Death Row. I was very nervous going there, and he upended every assumption and preconception that I had about individuals who are sentenced to death. And we formed a friendship, a friendship that lasted long after the road trip. And when I learned right before my book was published that he'd had an execution date set, I decided to use my book tour as an opportunity to amplify his story as much as possible. And I became involved in leading a grassroots effort to get him clemency. And so the guy you saw on Instagram is little GQ from the book. And so, you know, very kind of heartbreaking turn of events, he was executed on May 19, but I got to go down to Texas. It was one of my first post pandemic trips out of the house to see him on death row and to visit with him face to face and to interview him on camera. And it was his first time ever being interviewed other his first time being on camera. And, you know, in our last conversation, he said to me, I I feel at peace because I got to tell my story on my own terms, in my own words. And his last words said, I want everyone to pick up the pebble and throw it into the next lake and to let it ripple out and to keep doing the good work. And so it was surreal to think about how a single letter led me on this road trip and and led to us, you know, being in each other's lives in this way, especially in these last couple of months of working day and night with a team of pro bono lawyers on on his case. But to me, that's the magic of of stories and the way they allow us to connect and and to see each other in ways that we never could otherwise.

[36:36]Zibby Owens: My gosh. Well, now I'm even more upset knowing that that's the same guy. I thought because his name was different. Oh my gosh. Anyway, do you know the author Brittany K Barnett? Have you read her book or? I have not. Should I add this on my my TBR? Oh my gosh. First of all, you have to read it. I'm gonna like, can I connect you on email or something? But that is her whole mission is helping people get off death row. And she's amazing. And she had like the Amazon Book of the Year last year and it's called A Knock at Midnight. Or you could just listen to my podcast with her. I will. I will. Anyway, you should connect because you have a similar I would love that. Big heart and mission. So we should definitely connect. And then another question just to tie up because now I have all these like, I wanted like a longer, you know, epilogue. In the beginning, you decided to freeze your eggs. What has happened? Anything on that front since? Have you thought about that? Or is that just like a chapter that's done? And I don't know, have you given it any thought? Yeah. So I learned via a Google search the night before I was going to be admitted to the hospital for

[37:41]Suleika Jaouad: to start chemo, that the side effects of my treatment were going to make me infertile. And at the time I was 22, the most thought I'd ever given to being a mother was how not to become one before I was ready. So I really, you know, hadn't given much thought to it, but I understood in that moment that preserving that choice for my future self felt hugely important, especially at a time when everything was so uncertain and I'd been given about a 35% chance of survival. Wanted to invest in that 35% chance and the possibility of existing in that future. So I froze these eggs, I called them my totsicles for years. I still have them. And I still don't know if I'll use them. I think I've learned that there are many ways to make a family and that, you know, making a family is its own kind of creative act. So I may use my topicals, I may not. I'm interested in becoming a foster parent, but all of that is to be determined. But I do feel like, you know, in watching my mom become my caregiver when I was sick and watching her when I left for this road trip where for a lot of mothers, when your daughter has just survived leukemia and has just gotten a driver's license, the idea of them setting off alone on a 15,000 mile road trip is enough you know, to to make you wanna tell them they absolutely should not go. But, you know, to her credit, she said not only that she wanted me to go, but that it was exactly the kind of worry that a mother of a 27 year old should have, and that it was a privilege to have normal mom worries, and to not be up at night because of biopsy results, but to be up at night because your daughter's on a road trip. And so anyway, all of this to say that I think my understanding of mothering and the many forms it can take has been so deepened

[39:55]Zibby Owens: by these last years of my life, and I'm excited to figure out what that means for me. Yeah. Sorry to put you on the spot like that. It's probably completely unfair to ask you that question. I'm sorry. No. Is this going to be a movie? I'm sure there's news about it, but I haven't researched enough because I was so busy reading the book.

[40:13]Suleika Jaouad: It is going to be, it hasn't been announced yet but I will keep you posted. I'm really excited about

[40:19]Zibby Owens: seeing what comes of it. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Wow, I feel like this is just going to help so many people continually along the way in all different forms. It's really amazing. I hate to even like end this interview. Could talk to you all day. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors? Oh, good question.

[40:38]Suleika Jaouad: I think my advice is to do the work. I remember, you know, when I got sick feeling like I couldn't become a writer since I wasn't well enough to go to an MFA program or to intern at a magazine or whatever it is that we think are those prerequisites to getting your foot in the door. And my career really started because I began writing first a blog and then eventually it turned into a column. But I began writing for myself from my hospital bed about the subject that I could write about, which at the time was this illness. But I guess to yeah. Not feel like you need two checks or inboxes in order to get started, to not feel like you need an idyllic workspace or the perfect setup in order to finally get to your manuscript,

[41:34]Zibby Owens: but to write about what you can, when you can, and to start now. Wow. Are you happy? How do you feel like in general? On a scale of one to I

[41:46]Suleika Jaouad: feel so happy. I feel, you know, it's it's been a surreal decade. And I never dared dream any of the dreams that have come to fruition in the last year. And yeah, I feel very grateful and very happy very happy and to be here talking with you. I could also talk to you for another ten hours.

[42:10]Zibby Owens: Let you go. Well, it's been such a pleasure. Your book was like A plus one of the best I've ever read. I absolutely loved it. And I hope I get to meet you. Would be honored to meet you in future if that ever comes to pass. And yeah, I just can't wait to keep reading what you write and following along as your life sort of continues. So I hope you keep us in the loop as you sort of go through all your next stages.

[42:34]Suleika Jaouad: Thank you, Zibby. And yes, we will make that in person hang happen. I would love that so much. And thank you to everyone listening. This has been such a joy and a delight.

[42:45]Zibby Owens: Right. Well, a great day. Bye. Thanks again. Bye bye. Thank you.