Christina and Ryan Hillsberg, LICENSE TO PARENT: How My Career As a Spy Helped Me Raise Resourceful, Self-Sufficient Kids

[1:09]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zoe Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Christina and Ryan Hilzberg are the coauthors. Well, actually, Christina is the author, and then it says with Ryan, which as a husband and wife, there was some negotiation about by and with. But anyway, their book is License to Parent, How My Career as a Spy Helped Me Raise Resourceful, Self Sufficient Kids. Christina and Ryan are both former spies with more than twenty years experience working at the CIA before transitioning to the private sector. They live near Seattle, Washington with their five children and two Rhodesian Ridgebacks. I was honored to have blurbed this book, which means that I wrote the little I wrote one of the quotes that says how great it is on the back of the book. And it's really fantastic. And I'm just so honored to be associated with it in any way. We did an Instagram Live on their publication day, which I mistakenly didn't save correctly. So what you're listening to now is a full on regular podcast that I did with them afterwards. So enjoy. Welcome, Christina and Ryan, to moms don't have time to read books, to discuss License to Parent, How My Career as a Spy helped me raise resourceful self sufficient kids. Hi, thanks so much for having us, Zvi. We're so happy to be here. Thank you. You're welcome. It was so nice. We did an Instagram Live on your pub day. And that was so exciting. And this is now the follow-up to that where we can go even more in-depth, but at least there's a little bit of us on Instagram if anybody wants to check it out. Yeah. That was so fun. And I was so just so honored to blurb this book. And it's like, I mean, it makes me really excited to see my name on the back so I can only imagine how it feels to have it on the front. So there we go. It feels great.

[3:21]Christina Hillsberg: It feels great. We were so thankful to receive your blurb. Oh, no. It was so fun. So would you mind telling listeners what License to Parent is about? Sure. So License to Parent is part memoir, part parenting guide, and it tells the story of my career at the CIA, how I met Ryan there, he was also a former spy, and also my journey into parenthood. And I had always envisioned that I would be a helicopter parent, but instead I used what I learned at the CIA to give my kids more freedom than I ever expected. And a lot of that is due to my husband, Ryan, who had three kids from his previous marriage and was already parenting using some of these techniques. So we've come together and formed an approach that uses his experience at the CIA on the clandestine side and my experience on the analytic side. And we use these techniques with our now five kids

[4:12]Zibby Owens: and we share practical takeaways along the way. So you're kind of like Mr. And Mrs. Smith or something like that. You seem normal, but really you're like the badass parents nearby.

[4:21]Christina Hillsberg: We love it. We love it. When we see that, we're like, oh my gosh, it's not a bad day when you're compared to Mr. And Mrs. Smith. That's pretty fun.

[4:29]Zibby Owens: Well, the thing that I loved, oh, I loved a lot of things. But the thing I loved about this book in particular, Christina, is your journey to becoming first a CA agent, then a stepmom, then like a full mom. What's the difference? Then a mom who's not a stepmom or a full I don't know how to say that. Biological mom. Biological mom. There we go. Sorry. And how all the things you learned along the way sort of fed into all of these roles and how it all started with a passion of yours, which I feel like is such a great lesson for just following what you love and you never know where it's going to go. So tell listeners a little bit about how you got started and how you were surprised yourself to end up in this job. I totally agree with you about passion because that was my main driving factor. So I went to college and studied linguistics and African languages. I knew that I had a knack for learning foreign languages in high school, but I didn't really enjoy the Spanish and Latin classes. And I wanted something a little bit more interesting, a non Indo European language.

[5:29]Christina Hillsberg: Because I was interested in Africa and African politics, I chose Swahili and fell in love with the language, fell in love with the culture. And then I also studied some Zulu as well. And I just followed that and I kind of fell into this interview with the CIA on my college campus. I tried to dodge the interview. I went to a Ladysmith Black Bambazo concert four hours away and lied to the recruiter, said that I had car problems and I just wouldn't be back in time. I actually was like staying the night in Chicago and just decided to skip it. And so then when he called me and said he was staying in town an extra day, I had forwarded my resume along to the address on the flyer and he knew my language capabilities. So he said, I'm staying an extra day. I really want to meet with you. And I thought, okay, I'll appease my parents who want me to have a safe government job for stability and I'll just go for practice. And when I sat across from him, he told me he was from CIA. I thought it was some important low level, boring job. I had no idea. And he said, you know, this is what you would be doing. You would be analyzing African politics. You'd be advising us policymakers on, you know, what's going on in your region. You would be traveling back and forth to Africa and you can use your foreign language skills. And to me, it was like all of the things I wanted to do. And so it was a no brainer. And four months later, I was in the door. I had a really fast clearance process. And I started this career that I fell in love with and found that I had more career ambitions than I had once thought. And I share a lot about that in the book. Amazing.

[7:01]Zibby Owens: I know I mentioned to you before we started talking that my kids are in the back and we had set up this tent when my little girl just ran in and said, Turn the sprinklers off. Oh my gosh. I know I don't even know what's going on out there. Oh, well. I also don't know how to turn the sprinklers up, so there you go. But let's see. Mean It'll make things easy. I can use some of the tactics in this book to, you know I love it. You know, interestingly, this whole notion of, like, self sufficiency with kids. This morning, my daughter, the same one was like, Hey, would you grab me, you know, those, I don't know, pancakes off the pan? And I was like, Why don't you grab them? They're there, the pants not hot anymore. And she was like, Isn't this like your job that you're supposed to like do things for your kids? Isn't that what it means to be a mom? And I was like, actually, what it means to be a mom is to teach your kids to go and do those things for themselves.

[7:45]Christina Hillsberg: That's right. Love it.

[7:47]Zibby Owens: But it's books like these that give parents like me the tools to know how to do that. And I love how practical your advice got after you get through sort of the narrative of your own life, how not only is that super entertaining and like it makes you want to be friends with you, Kristina, I feel like, you know, this book is like, let me sit down and have a glass of wine with this author type of vibe because you're so not overtly confessional, but just like so open and so self deprecating. And I don't know, it's then you're a super accomplished person anyway. But then you even give the rest of us sort of, you know, a goodie bag, if you will, a departing gift of all of this amazing advice. And I know that Ryan, a lot of that involved your training as well and this whole notion of like getting off the X. So can you tell us about that and like some of your top tips for parents based on all of your experience?

[8:37]Ryan Hillsberg: Sure. Yeah. I mean, concept of get off the X, it's something that's taught at CIA to all officers before they go overseas because they're going to be in different environments and it's something to really keep personnel safe. The gist of it is the X equals danger And the X can come in many forms. It can be a person, it can be a place, it can be an environment, it can be an atmosphere. Basically, wherever danger rears its ugly head, danger is an X. And you want to get away from that X as fast as possible. And the longer that you stay on that X, the more likely it is that you will be harmed. And this is really taught to us several times again and again and again, because one of the things that they do at the agency I think is really important, especially when it comes to training, is repetition. And not only repetition, but also learning from failure. A lot of the exercises that they do, you know, it's intended to make at least some of the people fail so that you can use that as a lesson to all of the class to then take back and dissect, learn from it, because you'd rather be failing in training than in real life. And I can actually say that with some confidence in terms of a lot of the training that I did at the farm. They try to make the training so difficult and so stressful and strenuous that anything you do in the real world will be a lot easier. And I can honestly say after thirteen years of being in there, nothing I did in real life was as difficult as the training. And I think that's a really good way to train people. It gives people confidence. It gives people peace of mind knowing that they've got the skills necessary to live and survive and thrive in an espionage setting overseas. And so taking that concept as well and teaching it to children in terms of learning from your mistakes and especially as parents, being able to handhold our kids and walk them through a lot of these processes where we watch them fail and we allow them to fail. And then we help them to learn from those experiences and to become better. And it's through that type of learning that I think we really grow. And especially children can then gain that confidence for themselves to really make good, informed, logical, common sense decisions

[10:54]Zibby Owens: when we're not with them. Very smart. Also, Christina, how you even identify danger and how you have this and perhaps it was in part because of your training that you noticed the man sort of while you were with your two kids on a walk. I'm picturing some sort of reservoir situation on a path or I don't know, it's probably just a park. But anyway, and how you noticed and felt like you should just get away. And then you debated if you should call the police and you hemmed and haunt and your mom was the one who had you do it. And then the guy ended up being, you know, a drug addict who perhaps was up to other not good things, but that you are the one who was like, you know what, I have to stop and look just like my kids have to stop and look and I have to trust my instincts. So tell me a little bit about that and how even as parents, because I think that if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that we have to go with our own guts on what we feel like is the right thing to do because there's not really a clear direction

[11:48]Christina Hillsberg: outside of our own home. So tell me about that. I totally agree. And I think the important part of all these concepts is that before parents can teach them to their kids, they really have to take them on themselves. And so they're learning them and then passing them along. And so learning, just like you said, to listen to your own gut. And in that scenario, you you also sometimes have a voice saying like, Well, maybe I'm overreacting. And I think as women, we have a tendency to think, Oh, I'm overreacting. This isn't a big deal, right? And even after I got my kids to the car safely, and I even talked about how, you know, normally I buckle them in their car seats and I'm standing outside of the car, but we all got in the car, locked the doors, and then I buckled them in so that my back wasn't towards the parking lot, right? But then, like you said, I thought about it for a while, Oh, I don't need to call. You know, they're safe. You know, I don't want to impose. You know, the police are doing important work and they don't want to be bothered by some harebrained mom, right? And we have a tendency, I think, to do that. And it wasn't until, like you said, I talked to my mom and she said, Well, you don't want this to happen to someone else. Just call. And when I talked to the police officer, he said, Well, I wish you had called sooner. And you know, I just thought, you know what? Not only do I need to listen to my gut and get out of there, but I need to not question myself and let them know and not feel like I'm in imposition and not make apologies for it. Know, I know how to look for these things. And so having that confidence and we want to provide that same confidence to our readers as well so that they can approach scenarios. But like Ryan said, we hope that people won't find themselves in scenarios like this. And so we didn't write this to make parents paranoid or to feel the sense of urgency like they need to prepare their kids for the end of the world or, you know, an active shooter situation or all these horrible worst case scenarios. The idea is that by preparing them in a fun way that emphasizes adventure, you know, we can feel more comfortable about giving them freedom knowing that the chances of them being in one of these really awful scenarios statistically is low, right? And so it's not about making parents paranoid. It's really about providing them that comfort to feel like they can parent from a place of strength instead of a place of fear, which is where I was in the throes of postpartum anxiety after my son was born. And not only also empowerment,

[13:55]Ryan Hillsberg: not just for the parents, but also for the kids. And I think what Christina did really well in that situation is when we're talking about getting off the X and avoiding danger, the great thing that she didn't do was freeze. Oftentimes when people are in this type of situation, the adrenaline is running, your blood is pumping, You know, people tend to not know what to do and so they freeze up. But it's important to keep moving, get to your car. If you're a quarter mile away, half mile away, you just you get there as fast as you can. You go to wherever the safety is, as far away from the X as you possibly can. And that's what's most important. And in terms of like active shooter type scenarios, I'm the director of corporate security. And so this is something that I've talked about for several years within a corporate security environment. But there's a reason there's a reason why within active shooter programs, they advocate the idea of run, hide and fight in that order. And there's a reason why run is first. And it's because running is the only thing that gets you off the X. And so getting off the X is almost like the precursor to those types of training for adults, like in the corporate world. But again, I think it's important and it's also taught in schools all across America from the West Coast to the East Coast, active shooter, run, hide, fight, etcetera, etcetera. And so these are concepts that are taught in schools and taught in other ways. But it's important for parents to be involved. And we think that that concept of get off the X is important because it's again, it's that precursor. It's that first step to get them thinking in their minds and visualizing it, which is something that we also talk about in the book, visualizing what would I do in this type of situation? What would I do in that type of situation? And when you can visualize in advance what you would potentially do in these types of scenarios, that gives you an edge, that gives you an advantage. And you know, the more likely that you'll avoid that X altogether or get away from it as fast as you can.

[15:49]Christina Hillsberg: Well, and I think with technology too, with cell phones, in that instant, a lot of people will first go to their phone and think they want to film it or I want to text someone, or I want to let someone know. But I think it's important also for people to learn how to, you know, rely on other skills. We talk about that in the book, like security awareness and being able to identify people's, you know, age and build so that you can then give a description to the police, right? And so even though part of me felt like I wanted to text Ryan to let him know that I was scared or I didn't know what was going on, but I also knew, one, he's far away. And if I get out my cell phone and I'm distracted, then I'm not, you know, alert. And so that's when you start relying on these other skills that we've talked about of, you know, getting a good look at the person, making sure you have a description so that you can give it to the police. Perfect.

[16:36]Zibby Owens: So was the CIA okay with you guys talking about all this stuff? Did you have to run this by them or what? We did. We went through, they have a publication review board.

[16:46]Christina Hillsberg: And so you have to put the manuscripts through that. And, you know, they made some redactions. We pushed a little too far in some areas. Were hoping to include some things. But by and large, we had a really positive experience working with them. So we're really thankful. We know that they are so busy approving different things from former officers, current, you know, any sort of projects like that that talk about your expertise and your trade craft has to go through them. And so the main idea is that they want to make sure that we're not inadvertently sharing any classified information that could jeopardize national security or of course the safety of their officers or any of the intelligence assets because that's, you know, of the utmost importance. So we got the green light. Oh, good.

[17:26]Zibby Owens: Assumed as much, but, you know, just

[17:29]Christina Hillsberg: double checking if you have.

[17:32]Zibby Owens: And I saw in your bios that after the CIA, you both worked at Amazon. Is that right? Tell me about that. I mean, that must have been completely different from what you were doing before. How did that even happen and how great that you guys got to work together?

[17:44]Christina Hillsberg: So we initially left the agency and Ryan actually went over to the national lab, Pacific Northwest National Lab immediately, and I went straight to Amazon. So we had a little bit of time where we were working separately, which was different for us. I was at Amazon in information security and I stood up their first insider threat program, did threat analysis for them using my, you know, CIA analytics skills in the cybersecurity space. And that was a really interesting experience to be a woman in tech, specifically a woman in a very male dominated field. I ultimately ended up switching to corporate communications at Amazon, which is where I found, you know, all of the women. And they were badass women who were so, just so accomplished and amazing and I loved it and would have stayed had I not decided to become a stay at home mom and pursue writing full time. But Ryan actually joined Amazon. Well, I guess I can let you tell it. But we ended up working together on the same business unit, but different. We got to come back. And then that's why I think the book has been so great too, because we love working together. We ran a couple of cases together at the agency before we were married, which was so fun.

[18:47]Ryan Hillsberg: Well, something that's interesting too is so when we were at the agency, we knew that we wanted to stay in this area eventually. And so we wanted to get out to relocate to Seattle. And so we started looking for jobs. And so we both got job offers on the same day. She got a job offer from Amazon. I got a job offer from the Pacific Northwest National Laboratories. And then we both resigned on the same day.

[19:13]Christina Hillsberg: But it was so funny. When we sat down with our chief of station, I shared that I was leaving first and he was like a real chatterbox. And he just kept talking and talking and talking like, Oh my gosh, you know, we're so happy for you, but of course we'll miss you. You know, the whole bit, right? And we couldn't get a word in edgewise to like let him know that Ryan is also leaving. And so we're in there for like probably twenty minutes and he finally is like, Okay. He's like, Ryan will be done. Ryan's like, Well, actually, I need to tell you some news too. So we both laughed at the same time and we were actually Ryan was the top producer of intelligence reports in that station of all time and I was number two only to him. But if you have to be number two to someone, at least it's your husband. That's true. Someone you can be proud of.

[19:57]Zibby Owens: And then you kind of demoted him by giving him the with credit.

[20:02]Christina Hillsberg: Christina, with Ryan. So, you know. I love it. It all evens out in there. It all evens there. Out. It's been so fun to work together again. You know, I was saying when we chatted on our Instagram live, you know, a lot of this was written together, you know, at our kitchen table hashed out. But you know, as having the intelligence analyst background, I'm more of the writer of the two and I like to have control of the keys.

[20:25]Ryan Hillsberg: It worked out. And she's also the faster writer. What would take me six hours to write, she can probably do in thirty minutes and have it look way better than my six hour endeavor. And so we've really made a good team, especially on this book, even before this book working together in multiple capacities. But this book was fun because it's our story. It's our life. And in many respects, it's from Christina's perspective and her optic. And it's really in many senses a love letter to me and the Biggs and also the Littles and our family and what we've gone through and where we've come from and where we are now and where we're going. And so it's

[21:06]Christina Hillsberg: special. Well, it's so great to like, look back at how far we've come because I mean, you know, you're a blended family as well and your husband is stepdad and, you know, being a step parent comes with its own unique challenges. And then even, you know, Ryan remarrying with kids, you know, that comes with its own challenges too. And like, I think back to when we were dating, so we were living several hours apart during the week. We would often see each other for ops meetings, sometimes midweek if we were lucky, and that would be alone time without kids. But otherwise we would be going all week without seeing each other and without seeing the kids at that time. And so when we would get together on a Friday, I would be on one couch on one side of the room and Ryan would be on the other couch with all three of his kids cuddling him. I just remember feeling so lonely, you know, wanting to have a baby of my own and just trudging through and thinking like, This is worth it. I can do this. And so it is really rewarding to like kind of feel like I'm on the other side of that. You know, our oldest is getting ready to go to college And you just kind of think like, where has the time gone? How and so it's it's just really great to have that story and to even narrate it ourselves in the audiobook was really fun. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[22:14]Zibby Owens: Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.comzibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby. Awesome. Yeah. I know I mentioned before, and I've tried I've tried to be better even in the last couple days of being sensitive to any sort of criticism of the non biological parent when it comes to parenting. I feel like it is a very difficult sort of line to toe because you don't know what to say. And like, I don't know, for me, like my main driver is to make sure my kids just really like my husband, you know, I mean, do, they love him. It's been five years or six years or whatever. But I don't know, I always just want to protect that. I'm like, hate me, you know?

[24:23]Ryan Hillsberg: Because I know you'll, you know, anyway. I was just going say, especially within this step parent context and environment, you or I could say something to our kids, right? And then our spouse could say the exact same thing to them with the exact same tone you know, and the exact same feeling or passion. And it's interpreted way differently, you know, by the kids. And so, you know, acknowledging that and knowing how to navigate that type of communication because what we could potentially say and what they can potentially say, although it's the same, it's different, you know, and realizing that. And Christina does a really good job with that. And realizing that and having that sense in your mind, I think it's important and it's just natural. It's not just your family or our family. A lot of blended families go through this. And I think it's healthy to discuss it and people should be willing to talk about it and actually share advice and guidance and what works for them, what works for you, what works for us. It's an important discussion.

[25:32]Zibby Owens: That's true. Especially, I don't know, sometimes I feel like my husband like, he has like better instincts in some things or like things that I might let go of. I think he's more safety concerned than I am. I'm like, not that I'm well, now this is sounding bad for me. Just like I'm not as worried, like if we're standing near an elevator, if they're too close, like they're gonna be okay. It's not that I don't know. But

[25:54]Christina Hillsberg: don't know. It's so funny. It's like you're the Ryan of your marriage and I like because that is totally him and I'm the one that would be more that's so funny. Yeah. It's a good balance though. Yes, it is a good balance. Yes,

[26:07]Zibby Owens: that's for sure. And I know, by the way, was so nice that Ryan, like had you go to like a hotel and write a lot of this book. Like that is just a, like, that's just a thumbs up move. Yeah. That was nice. That was nice. It's funny. I do that for Mother's Day every year too,

[26:21]Christina Hillsberg: even when I'm not writing. And I remember before I had my son, I had, you know, I had several mom friends at that point because I had my stepkids. And so we had connected with a lot of other couples and stuff that had kids, you know, the bigs age at the time. And I had a friend who would do that every year for Mother's Day. I remember just thinking, Gosh, that is so odd. Like, why doesn't she want to spend Mother's Day with her kids? Isn't that the whole point? And now I'm like, Oh yeah, I get it. And so every Mother's Day, I leave for the weekend and I spend it at a hotel by myself because that's what I want.

[26:52]Zibby Owens: I have this anthology. My second anthology is coming out in November. And one of the essays is by Alison Pataki, bestselling author of like a lot of historical fiction and this beautiful memoir. Anyway, her whole essay is about how every year she spends her birthday alone in a hotel and it's like the last of the year. I love Just I love it. Yeah, a universal privilege, I guess. Yes. Yes. So I know there's exciting news on the screen

[27:17]Christina Hillsberg: front for this project. Tell me more about that. Yeah. So we signed well, we sold the rights to Imagine Entertainment, which is the production company owned by Ron Howard and Brian Grazer. And it is for a scripted drama TV series. And so we have been involved in discussions with them on what that will look like. And so we can't really give more details beyond that, but we are so excited. We loved the team. You know, we had several meetings with different production companies and a lot of them were over Zoom seeing faces. But actually the team that we went with, I'd imagine we had only talked to you in an old fashioned phone call. And I said, I like to say that they had us at hello in like an old fashioned phone call. Like we didn't even need to see their faces because we could feel their vibes of how they, you know, really work to be authentic to the stories that they're telling. And we knew that they would make us a big part of the process. And the first time we did Zoom with them was after we had signed and everything. And so it was really fun to see each other's and

[28:14]Ryan Hillsberg: continue to build that relationship. We're excited. There was an instant connection with them, which was nice and then also made us excited for the potential

[28:22]Christina Hillsberg: of what's to come. They wanna join our family. They call themselves the biggest of the bigs. Oh, I love that. That's so great. That's amazing. Congratulations.

[28:31]Zibby Owens: Thank you. Great to watch it. And what's coming next in terms of writing? I know you had sort of teased the idea, Christina. Maybe you'll do another one more than that. We've

[28:41]Christina Hillsberg: got a proposal that is in the works and hopefully it will include some of those fun dating stories that I include in the early part of Licensed a Parent, somewhat of a prequel, so to speak. We shall see. So can't say more than that. But

[28:57]Zibby Owens: yeah, I hope to have more information on that soon. Did you guys have other title options for this book? Just curious. Or was it always licensed to parenting? Did. Did. I'm curious.

[29:07]Ryan Hillsberg: So I mean, so I speak Danish. I've lived in Denmark for several years And there's a book called The Danish Way of Parenting that really spoke to me several years ago. And so as we were discussing this concept early on and really towards, you know, even towards the end of the project, we really thought that the name of this book would be the CIA Way of Parenting. You know, that's really what we've called it, and that's how we've adopted a lot of these techniques because, you know, they're CIA techniques,

[29:36]Christina Hillsberg: you know, adopted to parenting. So And we did find a way to sneak that phrase into the book.

[29:42]Ryan Hillsberg: Well,

[29:44]Christina Hillsberg: and we were a little nervous that or worried that the PRB actually wouldn't support that name. The publication review board. Yeah, because it sort of sounds a little bit like CIA is endorsing it. And of course they don't endorse styles of parenting. So, but we pitched it like that. And then it was really an editorial decision and we went back and forth with lots of titles and Ryan actually thought of this title. So we had been brainstorming and that's what we came up with and then it stuck. So it was really fun. I was just thinking of spy phrases and things that people can associate

[30:14]Ryan Hillsberg: outside the book, you know, and sort of link to the book some way somehow. License to parent just made a lot of sense. Kind of cheeky and No, I loved it. It's great.

[30:22]Zibby Owens: It's great. Love it. Awesome. So do you guys have advice for aspiring authors? I would say

[30:29]Christina Hillsberg: really going back to what we talked about in the beginning, passion. You know, following what you're most interested in because as you do, things will come together for you. You know, and if you're writing about something you're passionate about, which Ryan and I both did in this book, then you'll find a way and sticking through that through persistence. And you know, this sounds cliche, but believing in yourself because you need to believe in yourself before anyone else does as a writer. I think that's so important because it's going to be a while before you get someone on board sometimes and you hear no a lot before you hear yes. And so following that passion and sticking with it and

[31:06]Ryan Hillsberg: you'll get there. And especially that phrase that she just used, sticking with it. So life happens sometimes. We started our initial book proposal and started going through the chapters and what would we include in terms of the principles and how we do it. And this was in July or August one summer.

[31:26]Christina Hillsberg: Gigi was like a month or two old. Yeah.

[31:29]Ryan Hillsberg: And so we started a little bit and we're getting some momentum and life happened. And we didn't get back to it for a year. So a year later, the following summer, we're like, you know what, let's really get on that. You know, it's something that we believe in. It's something that we really want to push forward and see if it's a viable option for a book and to get it out there into the world. And so then we got on it again a year later and started brainstorming and putting the pieces together. And what's great is that, you know, the dynamic that we have as a couple, you know, we both come up with ideas and are sort of idea makers. But what's really great for me is that Christina is the implementer. And so without Christina, this book would not exist, you know, and she wrote 90% of it. And having her implementing and putting forth all the time and all the effort and all the thought behind this book and linking everything together according to our parenting style and what we thought this book had the potential to be. It's been a pleasure working with her, and it's been fun. We've really enjoyed this time and now actually seeing it come to fruition and actually having the book in our hands and seeing our friends and family and strangers holding our book. Know, this huge.

[32:48]Zibby Owens: It's a dream come true for sure. Oh, that's so nice. By the way, I feel like we are the opposite now. I thought we were, you were the, I was the you in this relationship. Oh, are you the implementer? I'm the implementer. Well, of course you are. Look at all of your projects. Well, I'm just saying, you know. So what is your Myers Briggs? Now I'm really curious. Have you done Myers Briggs? I have. I took it in business school and I was like, only two percent of business school graduates had ever gotten mice.

[33:14]Christina Hillsberg: Oh, love it. Were you like, I think this is telling me something. Hold on. I'm gonna remember what things are. E N

[33:20]Zibby Owens: T.

[33:21]Christina Hillsberg: Oh, you an N? Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm not an E S. Well, I was FJ, but I think I'm more of a T these days. I used to be more of a feeler.

[33:31]Zibby Owens: But Ryan is a big N. Like like big I have to look it up. I have to look it up. Yeah. Have a lot of ideas too, but my husband is like, I don't know. He has like better ones, I think. That's how I look to himself. And I like never implement anything until I get his signed off. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I can run a thousand things and he'll be like, hey, how about that? Even something like sounds like a great team. I love it. It's nice. It's awesome. It's nice. But I guess maybe there's something with the step parent thing that I don't know. It's a secret ingredient to a happy marriage if someone's not a parent. Don't know. I don't know. All right. Well, great. And thank you so much. I'm sorry we had to redo this, but it was a pleasure chatting with you again And thank you for this book, and I can't wait to see what comes next for you guys. I'll be totally in your corner rooting for you. And I still, by the way, Ryan, want you to do some YouTube videos for kids on these lessons because I tried, by the way, to tell one of my daughters. I'm like, okay, there's this thing getting off the x that I just I'm like, my gosh. You need to not freeze. And she's like, but how do I know where the danger even is? Like, if I don't, like, figure it out? So anyway, I I still think you should do, like, just like two minute clips. Yeah. Like, 20 of them and like put it on your website or something and I bet parents will watch and Good have their kids idea. It's a great idea. In your spare time in your spare time, just like, you know, license to parent tube or something. I don't know. Whatever. Yeah. That's great. Alright. Have a great Thank you. You too. And everything. Alright. You too. Bye. Cheers. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.