Kelly Williams Brown, EASY CRAFTS FOR THE INSANE: A Mostly Funny Memoir of Mental Illness and Making Things

[1:32]Zibby Owens: This is Zoe Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Listeners, if you enjoy this podcast, I promise you will love my new audiobook, For Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. It's not about the quarantine, but a lot of the essays were written during that time about other things that moms don't have time to do or other busy people. Things like reading, eating, working out, breathing, having sex, and 60 bestselling and notable authors wrote essays. All those authors have been on this very podcast. So if you like to listen to my conversations, if you want to get to know these authors better, I read the audiobook myself. Check it out on Audible, Moms Don't Have Time To, a quarantine anthology. Again, Audible audiobook. Go listen to it. It's like sixty minute podcasts. I hope you enjoy. Special announcement. I am teaming up with Katie Couric Media's Wake Up Call and Random House to give away 100 copies of the book Stranger Care by Sarah Santillis. I'm really excited about this. Here's a little about Sarah's book, and we collectively are giving away 100 copies. After their decision not to have a biological child, Sarah Santilles and her husband, Eric, decide to adopt via the foster care system. Despite knowing that the system's goal is the child's reunification with the birth family, Sarah opens their home to a flurry of social workers who question them, evaluate them, and ultimately prepare them to welcome a child into their lives, even if it means most likely having to give the child back. Stranger care is an illuminating read, and Sarah will be on this podcast soon. So if you would like to enter for a chance to win, please go to the link in the episode description from right where you clicked on it and enter your email address first and last name. By doing so you're agreeing to the sweepstakes official rules and agree to receive communications and special offers from Katie Couric's wake up call and moms don't have time to read books. Thank you for doing it and enter to win today. Just go back to the episode description. Thanks again. Kelly Williams Brown is the author of Easy Crafts for the Insane, a mostly funny memoir of mental illness and making things. Kelly is also the New York Times bestselling author of Adulting and Gracious. A former reporter, ad copywriter, and Bourbon Street bartender, she lives with her giant neurotic dog in Salem, Oregon. Welcome, Kelly. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss easy crafts for the insane, a mostly funny memoir of mental illness and making things. Well, thank you so much for having me, Zippy. I'm really glad to be here. It's such a thrill to talk to you. As I mentioned earlier before we recorded, literally the minute I got this galley, I was like, I cannot wait to read that book. Like, that is a book I would snatch off the shelf at a bookstore. It's like right up my alley, and it was so great. And I just you're so likable in your authenticity and how you just, like, spill it all and you're funny and, like I don't know. I just, like, found myself, like you know how when you read a memoir, you find yourself, like, really caring about the person after even though you don't know them? I love memoirs. So, yeah, I'm always there too. Well, thank you so much. I'm glad that my chronic oversharing has finally found a a useful outlet, I guess you could say. I am thrilled to be a consumer of your oversharing. So that worked out well. For listeners who might not know, and I will have already read your bio at this point, but tell everybody about what this book is about and how you decided to even write it, especially after writing Adulting and Gracious. Sure thing. So I think the quickest way to say it is that I had a really bad two years.

[5:39]Kelly Williams Brown: Certainly not grand human suffering bad. Like, I was not a refugee or anything like that. But, you know, I broke three of my four limbs in separate unrelated incidents. My father got cancer. I fell into a terribly deep depression that sort of, like, turned me into an agoraphobe that could only see two or three people in my life. I was in a really, unfortunately, kind of bad and toxic for both of us relationship. I got divorced. Oh, it should have led with that. And, yeah, and it's just like sort of the hits kept coming. And then eventually, my depression became so bad, and there were other factors at play, that I ended up in inpatient psychiatric hospitalization, which was really kind of the nadir of all of it. And so again, it's not like any one of these things. All of them are difficult, but it was sort of the combination of them all together and just feeling like I could not get my feet under me no matter what I did. I think lots of people have had the experience of thinking that they are a certain person or thinking that their life is a certain kind of way.

[6:52]Zibby Owens: And then we find out that we were very wrong about that. And so then the question becomes, Okay, well, who am I and what is my life and how do I rebuild from all the wreckage around me? And this book covers that as well. Wow. So what is like the short answer if someone just popped in for two seconds and feels like their life is never going to they're never gonna get back on their feet? How on how does it even happen? How did you find your way out?

[7:17]Kelly Williams Brown: A lot of work and honestly, partially just time. I mean, the one advice one piece of advice I would give to anyone who is really, really struggling is just wait. Nothing has ever lasted forever. No feeling you've had, no experience you've had, nothing lasts forever. And a lot of times, things are just very crappy. I hope I'm allowed to say that. Would go for something saltier, usually, but I'm trying to keep it good. And sometimes things are just really crappy, and all you can do is kind of put one foot ahead of the other and keep on trudging with the faith that it's not gonna be this way forever.

[7:54]Zibby Owens: And you also turned to crafts, of course, as one of the things that no matter how bad things got sort of made you feel better that you could still accomplish. I just wanted to read this one paragraph if that's okay. You said crafting gives me a sense of accomplishment even when I feel like I can't accomplish anything. Crafting is tangible proof that I can do something. To craft is to set things correct in tiny ways to make this crease or that stitch or move that candle over a bit because it just looks better there. And I can almost always affect these changes in the universe. Crafting reminds me that my brain moving differently from other people's brains is not all a bad thing. That's exactly right. And I

[8:31]Kelly Williams Brown: think something that I picked up on before I realized the actual sort of mindfulness connection is that when you're really zeroed in on a craft, you're working with your hands, you're looking, you're being careful and precise and slow. And that really is sort of a meditation in a way, as cheesy as that might sound. Also, a healthier choice than heroin. If you're feeling really despairing, I would say given the choice between the two, crafting wins every time. Wow. Even confusing origami steps,

[8:59]Zibby Owens: really. Like, I feel like some of the crafts are so like, I'm I'm not particularly crafty at all. And by not particularly crafty, I mean way less crafty than you are. Like, not at all crafty. And I'm like, I could not I don't think I could make really most of these things. In fact, I showed my kids a few of the crafts and like, now we can do these together. And they were like, no, I don't know if we can do this. Oh my gosh. What do think? Okay. Look, here is my full craft caveat.

[9:24]Kelly Williams Brown: Okay. One, they're easy crafts, kind of. They're not good crafts necessarily, I wanna say that. And two, the best way to learn crafting is for someone who does it to be in the room and be like, No, no, not quite. You know, with origami especially, I was taught by I went to a very international elementary school in Houston, and the kids who had moved over, usually temporarily from Japan, their moms would come in and teach us origami. And YouTube videos are very important. It can be very tough to describe, particularly when you have my grubby little illustrations in lieu of, like, actual pictures.

[9:57]Zibby Owens: So I would say that I I loved the illustrations, by the way. I Thank loved that you put them everywhere. I loved your, like, love roller coaster. Let me see if I can find it where you went, like, up and down for, like, the feelings of falling in love and, like I don't know. Anyway, I just I love this. Oh, yeah. No. I cannot I mean, I've I've gotten a lot better at it. I've gotten a lot better at a lot of things. That's the fun part of doing a lot of really intense mental

[10:20]Kelly Williams Brown: health and wellness work. But for a while there, I really, unless the relationship at the very beginning was like crazy intense and I was super into him and he was super into me, it was like, Oh, this is boring. You should be moving into my house by now. Thank you. Super healthy.

[10:38]Zibby Owens: There was another passage that I wanted to read, and I guess this is sort of in line with what you're just talking about. But you were saying, every three or four years, I see a man and I know, and then I will wait until time and circumstances are right, sometimes years with lesser relationships in between. I write the entire story before I've met the main character, and I don't leave room for edits. And then you said, those experiences came close to the fabled Koi no Yokan, probably not pronounced right sensation, but I never ever felt it like I did with shockingly attractive man, all caps. It was this insane feeling of relief. Oh, here you are. Finally.

[11:10]Kelly Williams Brown: I I mean, I I think we all have that, like, sometimes you have that just, like, spark with someone. And it does not just have to be, a romantic relationship. Like, sometimes just meeting a friend and it's like, Oh, you and me. Okay. Now, now, now it's time. Now, now we're ready to go. And it was really one of those things. Shockingly attractive man, who I call Sam in the book, not his real name, is indeed extremely attractive. However, that's not really what I noticed about him. There was something else about him that I just felt like, I know you, and you know me, and now this is gonna be real. It's so crazy how that happens. I know. Well, I'm kind of melodramatic, too. I mean, I think that that helps me. No. But I agree with you. I think there's like a knowing, like a recognizing a recognition of people that continues to happen that what does that even mean? It's like the coolest thing though, because you just feel like, oh, yeah, you. Right. I get it. Here you are. Well, so I picked up on my grandmother was a Zen Buddhist and she was very good and faithful at it. And I know a little tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of a bit. So please forgive me if I explain this incorrectly. But there are some theories that we are karmically bound to every single person we meet, no matter how long or how short, you know, whoever is in your field of vision is just teaching you something. And then once you have fulfilled the bond to one another, then the relationship ceases. And so in my mind, I always feel that when feel that way about someone, it's because we are meant to sort of play a role in each other's life that is going to be significant. And he was indeed extremely significant in my life, and taught me a lot, I think I taught him a lot. And I think given the choice, probably neither of us would have really chosen to get those lessons. But

[12:55]Zibby Owens: it doesn't mean we didn't learn something. There you go. So let's go back to adulting. Sure. So you and you write about this so interestingly. And then even gracious when you talk about, like, what what that experience is like researching it given how you felt. But you you wrote this bestselling book about, like, how to be an adult and coming up with this word that you admit you found, like, completely annoying yourself. Indeed. I'm sorry, everyone. And then you had basically all this success that you had to manage while you were trying to figure out your own life and the added pressure not only of your life, but then, like, people thinking that you had it all together. In fact, you wrote the book about it. So tell me about that sort of moment in time and how like, what would have happened if you hadn't written that book, do you think? That's a wild question. I

[13:42]Kelly Williams Brown: think that if I hadn't written adulting, it's so hard to say because now we're ten years past that, you know, but pretty much all of my life now is predicated upon having written adulting, you know, but that's a no one's ever asked me that. I think probably realistically, I would have gotten a job in PR or something. I think I probably would have clamored to get married before I did. And I think I would have probably had kids and it would have been a very different life than the one I have. Not a bad one, don't think, but really different and sort of unrecognizable to me at this point. It was really hard to because I was extremely clear, I think, in both books that these are not my specialties and they are so not my specialty that I wish to learn about this. So I am going to go find people who can tell me, who is not a very good adult, how to do it. And I talked even about my failures throughout both of those books, you know? Like, the smell of my fridge alone at times has been a powerful and dark force in my life, you know? But people don't necessarily read all that. They just hear the title and they see your picture on the cover and they think, ah, okay. Well, who does this gal think she is? And the answer to that is someone whose couch has way too much dog fur on it. You know?

[15:00]Zibby Owens: Yeah. We have it's not even my dog. It's my sister in law's dog was in our car a while ago, and I still have all of that. Like, the white dog hair from that dog and my dog. I was like, this is so embarrassing. Finally, my daughter's like, why don't you just clean this? Like, why don't you just clean it? Like, I don't know. We should just do it. Because every soon as you get out of the car, you forget that it's messy and you go on to the next until you get in again and you're like, Oh, no. And then you remember. Yeah. No. I mean, Eleanor's fur, I have a big Saint Bernard mix. And so all of her hairs are like six inches long and wavy. They look like they've been crimped, and they like sturdily weave themselves through every surface in my life. And eventually, was like, You get a clean home slash car, or you get Eleanor.

[15:43]Kelly Williams Brown: So Eleanor is the choice, but doesn't mean I don't feel like a grubby little baby all the time. I've seen lots of pictures of Eleanor on your Instagram, so thank you for that. I feel like you should write a children's book about her. I would love to write a children's book about Eleanor. Eleanor really does her best as she kind of glumps through the world, but has a lot of troubles and a lot of anxieties and a lot of trouble knowing what she's doing with her mouth and whether it looks insane to everyone else. So I think that's something that kids could relate to.

[16:14]Zibby Owens: Exactly. You can have the Miata picture, like Eleanor and the Miata on the cover. Oh. And like life life lessons from an oversized dog or something like that. I don't know. I'm a big dog in a little bitty car. The Eleanor story. Exactly. Alright. Well, you can do that this afternoon when you have that. Just whip it out. Yeah. You know, just whip it out. It's it'll it'll be fine. So the bad year, and I'm so sorry for all the things that happened, by the way. I should have said that when you first started talking about your your bad two years rather. Is there any part of it that you're like, well, if this hadn't happened, maybe it would have been okay?

[16:47]Kelly Williams Brown: So this is an answer that I think some people will really get, and some people who don't feel this way will find very alienating. But I feel like the election of Donald Trump felt like a really destabilizing force in my life. I've always been someone who covered or who follows politics incredibly closely. I almost went into political reporting until I was like, Well, my own personal feelings on this are so strong that it's hard to I can't be totally objective about this. And it was just really upsetting. And I know that people on the other side of the aisle have had a similar experience when someone that really is sort of upsetting to them gets elected, and it's just like, I feel like I am a little bit alienated from my own country. And I feel felt really upset about the racism and the xenophobia and his obvious hatred of and disdain towards women. And the fact that he just didn't seem to take what I thought was a very serious job very seriously at all. And everything felt chaotic and like it could spiral out of control at any minute. And that sort of background noise of chaos, I found, like bled more and more into my life and sort of my outlook on things. But then again, I I also this is this is another one of those beliefs. I I believe the world is exactly as it must be, that there aren't ways for it to have occurred other than exactly the way it did. And so therefore, like, things have meaning, and I don't have to understand the meaning of it for that to be the case. But it's a lot easier to say that now that we're sort of on the other side of the pandemic and that I feel like, you know, the chief executive of our country isn't picking fights on Twitter with people who have tremendous arsenals. So that that and again, I I know that's an alienating answer, but it's a true one. Yeah. I mean, speak your this is your time in the mic here.

[18:54]Zibby Owens: You say, you know, obviously well, anyway, I'll just I don't think that's alienating. I think that's a a commonly held feeling. And whether or not you agree with it or not, I don't think it's so left field that other people don't totally relate. So do not worry at all. And I I know why people have different feelings on it, and I I think everybody gets to have their own opinion that just happens to be mine. So tell me a little more about right before you were hospitalized and the hitting bottom sort of moment that precipitated that.

[19:29]Kelly Williams Brown: Sure. So this is, if you don't mind. So there is certainly a content warning in this book for suicide attempts and hospitalizations, but essentially, and truly the really worst thing that happened to me throughout the course of the book was the loss of the friendships of these two women who I was incredibly close to. We were just a trio. You know, everywhere we went, we went together. One of them was living in my house with me. And I don't get into the details of why that estrangement happened because it's really personal and also because I tried really hard throughout the book to not really spill other people's business. You know, like, it's really important to me when I'm writing about people to remember that they have no way to respond in kind, you know? And so when it came to a question of like, do I want to mention this thing they did that I don't think was great? The answer is usually going to be no, because I'm not writing this to put people on blast, which is a challenge in and of itself, because that way people can very easily become, you know, sort of paper dolls, like these flat one dimensional characters where they don't say anything wrong and they don't do anything wrong and they're just awesome and I just list the things that I love about them. And then I'm like, Oh, and we don't we're not friends anymore. And it's like, Wait, why though? But it was the loss of those two. And I went they were really the people that I saw in addition to my boyfriend, then boyfriend Sam. And I was all alone in my house. I was utterly, utterly alone. And also, I was having a really terrible reaction to a new antidepressant that I had been put on. You know how they list suicidality as one of those side effects? Turns out they weren't kidding. That is actually something that can happen even to people who are not suicidal, like I wasn't. So it culminated in an attempt that obviously, unfortunately, did not work. But then I was in a psychiatric hospital, and that's just really not something that I had thought necessarily that my life would contain. But at the time I spun it, I was like, Hey, you're a writer. Like, no great writer. Every great writer needs at least one trip to the sanitarium. You know what I mean? Get booted up, get back on there, everything is copy. So yeah, so that was kind of the very lowest point in the book. And the loss of those friendships still really hurts more than the loss of any romantic relationship I've had in my life, because I had no more assumed that those relationships could go away than I thought, like, my sisters could divorce me. It had just never occurred to me as something that could happen, but it did. And it was sort of the very worst thing. And at the hospital, they described it as catastrophic loss of chosen family. Aw. Which and when they as soon as you said that, you know, I've been going through this for this, like, turmoil, this anguish, this grief, this, like, tremendous pressing, terrible grief for, like, a month and a half at that point. And before that, I didn't have the language to I was like, what do I say? My friends don't like me anymore. Like, I don't totally understand why this happened. Like, that made no sense. And then when they said that, it really clicked into place and it was like, yes, like, these are the people I cook and eat my meals with. These are the people who I plan vacations with. These are the people who, you know, in one case lived in my house and the other case was always over at my house. And now they're gone. And like, no wonder I'm bereft, you know? I'm really sorry that happens. I'm bummed too. It was really hard. It was really a bummer. That said, my life today is so much happier than I have ever been in my life. And that I like, if you had went to me and said, you're gonna lose these two friendships and you're gonna, you know, break off sort of with this chunk of people in your life and your life is gonna be better than you ever imagined, I would say, you're insane. How could I be happy without this? And the truth is is that I I am much happier now. And so it hurts, and we all just have things that kinda hurt, you know, and this is this is definitely the one thing from the book that still hurts for me.

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[26:45]Zibby Owens: I don't I mean, that is it's really, really hard. That's I mean, the people that form like the bedrock of life when they're whisked away, everything feels so unsteady in so many ways. Everything else just takes on new dimension. So it's not to be taken

[27:02]Kelly Williams Brown: lightly. It's not just, you know. It's not. And and I found, you know, that we don't have a lot that talks about the grief of losing female friendships. Mhmm. And it can really be complicated and intense. You know, even like, you know and I've done a lot of reflection, and I see a lot of things that I wish I had done differently. You know what I mean? And and I think that's the case at the end of any relationship that ends with a breakup is you think, what if this, what if that? But on the other hand, I've also thought through every angle of the situation. And I even though I'm sad that it happened, I have a lot of what I feel like is peace and understanding of it, which is usually the best you can do when something terrible happens. You know, you don't have to like it, but you can be like, okay, that happened. I can see some reasons why it happened. I can see some ways in which I can hopefully try to prevent something similar from happening in the future. I can see some things that I've learned. I can see some things that are honestly maybe sort of red flag ish in other people. And then you move on, you know, and you just hope that you're gonna do better next time.

[28:05]Zibby Owens: You know, there's this memoir I read recently by Quinta Brunson called She Memes Well. I just listened to that interview. Sorry. Oh, you did oh, of mine? Mhmm. Oh, oh, cool. Thank you. The book is really great. And one part of it is that she was going to school and all of her friends turned against her. Like and it was so painful. She literally could not get out of bed. She could she ended up having to change schools. It was this huge, like, life event for her. So I'm you know, it's nice to have it aired Yeah. More publicly that these things happen and the impact of them. Because, you know, especially even for people's kids out there who all of a sudden, you know, that whole people turning against them, like, is real pain. Oh, yeah. So anyway. Oh my gosh. Like, you know, if I really

[28:51]Kelly Williams Brown: that was the other part of the situation that made it kinda hard for me to articulate and talk to people about, is that it sounded, no offense to me, very seventh grade. Mhmm. Like, these two friends don't like you anymore, and they're not really telling you why. You know? And and so the whole thing, like, felt, you know, on a on a certain level, kind of childish. But on the other hand, like, again, we like, if my boyfriend had dumped me and I was really bummed, then I would know exactly what to say to everyone about that. And I think that, sort of taking a step back, I think a lot of the stuff I put in this book are things that are kind of not uncommon human experiences, but ones that we don't have great language for and ones that we don't feel comfortable talking about publicly. And it's just funny that, like, some troubles and travails and illnesses or whatever are things that we have a very definite script for and some we don't. And I was sort of more interested in the ones we don't have that script for. Wow.

[29:48]Zibby Owens: So what was it like

[29:50]Kelly Williams Brown: writing this? The actual writing? Terrible. Thank you for asking. No. No, it was awful. I mean, as you probably know, writing is well, shouldn't generalize. I don't particularly enjoy the act of writing. I enjoy having written, but I find the actual work of it kind of gruesome. And this was sort of doubly or triply so, because compared to my other books where I was just like, Wow, this person really knows how to get stains out of clothing. Let's talk about that. I would get an editorial note back from my editor that's like, You don't say much about this family member. Are they depressed? How's your relationship with them? Is there trouble? And I was like, That's a lot. Okay. That's a lot to pack into one or two questions. And I did, you know, when I turned it in, my editor is Michelle Howery at Putnam, who is Welcome to a Kidney, or, you know, if she wants a child from me, I don't really want to have one, I have one, I would give it to her. She is a true miracle worker because when I turned it in, I really didn't have my arms around it. Unlike my other books where I I started it and I really knew, like, this is the book I wanna write. And then I might not live up to that vision, but I I knew what I wanted to write. This one, I really wasn't sure. And it kept shifting. And I thought, is it about this? Is it about that? Like, what are we doing here? And she really saw what it should be. And she really steered me in that direction, but it took a very long time. I think we probably did at least six, arguably up to 10 rounds of edits. I mean, it was a true labor. You know, people sometimes compare having a book to having a baby, which in some ways makes sense insofar as like you're really focused on only this one thing and you don't totally care as much about other things that are happening. And, of course, it's extremely important to you, but not quite as important to everyone else, you know? And and it's just sort of this very, like, inward world. And, yeah, I sort of disappeared into it. But on the upside, you know, the summer of twenty twenty, my schedule was pretty clear. So that was a great time to truly delve into my own trauma memoir and be like, I don't know if enough sad stuff is happening, so I'm going to also time travel back to the worst parts of my life. Oh my gosh. You a funny

[32:02]Zibby Owens: not funny, how can you be funny about the pandemic? But your conclusion about it and even the little star telling you it was all going to be okay. You're like, Well, if I was ever worried about being stuck at home alone, like this is not exactly

[32:14]Kelly Williams Brown: the right thing to have happened here in the world. I know. Well, you know, and it's funny because I did pretty well throughout the pandemic because I was so used to just like, well, now you exist in your house and you don't see other humans. But this time I wasn't terribly depressed, so I did a much better job of it. And, you know, it was hard because I had set up all these things in my life to sort of as bulwarks against depression, against loneliness. You know, I started leading a Girl Scout troop. I started trivia night in town. I got a part time job at a nonprofit, so I had a reason to get up in the morning and put on makeup and see humans, you know, and not just be here trying to live the stay at home writer dream. And then all of that stuff just left within a week. And it was a little bit like, not that the pandemic is about me at all, but on a personal level, it was kind of tough to have all those things taken away, just like it was tough for everyone to have our lives taken. And I was glad that I was able to spend that time building relationships with my close neighbors around here. Like, I know kind of everyone on my block, and we would just sit outside in each other's yards and just chitchat and really get to know each other. And it's a very wide ranging group of women. I'm probably the youngest. I I think the oldest is in her late sixties, early seventies. Most of us are single women who own our own homes and just a wide range of life experience and personalities and beliefs and all that sort of stuff. And what a good lesson there was that, you know, I always try to find the silver lining. My mom told me a story when I was little about, you know, there was a boy in a proverbial small town or village who was always way too optimistic about everything, you know? And so the villagers decided to try to take him down a peg and told him that there was a big present waiting for him in the barn, and then he got there and there was a giant, giant pile of horse poop. And so he said, Oh, gosh, oh boy! And started, like, shoveling frantically. And they were like, What are you doing? And he's like, Well, with all this poop, there's got to be a pony somewhere. You know? And I feel like that's the attitude I try to cultivate in my life, is that there's got to be a pony somewhere. And even if there isn't, I'll lie to myself and tell myself there's a pony somewhere. But in this case, there was a pony, and that was developing close friendships with people around me who I see face to face, who it's not just like an Instagram like or something, who I am genuinely invested in in their lives and vice versa. We have a great group text that whenever if something is wrong with any of us or one of us just needs to borrow something, we throw it out there and someone can help. The night of the wildfires here in Oregon, when it was, like, coming really close and I was trying to get ready to evacuate, In an extremely on brand move, I fell down the stairs and severely sprained my toe so I couldn't walk while I was trying to pack, which, as you now know, having read the book, just really something that would happen to me. And two of my neighbors are nurses, and they came over and they checked it out and they're like, Okay, well, just gotta rest and elevate and ice. And they splinted it together, you know? And to have the experience of hurting myself in the middle of an emergency and but still feeling safe and still feeling like I do have this family in a certain way, you know? And then I knew that, like, if it really got dire, someone would throw me and Eleanor in their car with the stuff I'd packed and we would go. It's not like I was just going to stay at home with a broken toe while there were wildfires. You know, that that really made me realize sort of the fruits of everything I've been doing to try to rebuild my life and try to rebuild relationships and really engage deeply in the world. So that felt pretty good. Wow.

[35:44]Zibby Owens: Gosh, I gotta get some nurses around. Oh, yeah. Don't think I have it. Oh, nurses are the Oh, that's the thing I can do. Okay. Two last questions. I wanna know what you have coming up next in your life and what you're working on now, and also what advice you would have for aspiring authors. Okay. So the answer to that first question is pretty boring. I don't particularly

[36:04]Kelly Williams Brown: I don't write or do projects because I should or because of, like, timing or because I have, like, sort of that natural forward momentum that a lot of people do. I write it because I want to write a book. Otherwise, it's truly not worth it since it's such an unpleasant process. So right now, I'm very focused on restarting my trivia night, which I'm pretty jazzed about now that we can do that. I've got some lovely summer plans. I've got a little bit of camping on the books. I've got a couple days away at the Oregon Coast. Heading out to New York to see some friends for my birthday because I haven't been to New York in like Oh, happy birthday. Thank you. Well, it's in August, so we're, you know, we're pretty well ahead. -Wait. What day is August? About you? -I'm 20. So you're very cuspy then, aren't you? Just right I am. I'm right on the edge there. I'm pure Leo, baby, but I love a Virgo too. Yeah. I identify as Leo. You seem like a Leo. Would have guessed. I am. Yeah, you're Leo. You're Leo. 100%. So, yeah. So, I mean, I'm trying really hard to not make the things I look forward to in my life about, like, a specific career success because that, in general, hasn't brought me a lot of pleasure, you know, or or sort of not even pleasure, but, like, contentment and stability. So nothing big too hype except I mean, I do have a book coming out in, you know, like, a week. So I'm I'm well focused on that. That counts. Easy crabs for the insane. Yes. That counts a 100%. That is what you're doing. Yes. And there's so much more to having a book come out than anybody might ever possibly think, and it's incredibly time consuming. It's not untime Well, and as far as aspiring writers, this is, know, I started off as a journalist, and this is something that I always said to, you know, when I would speak with classes and stuff is that this is my philosophy. This does not have to be everyone's philosophy. But my philosophy is always that I make things because I want other people to read and hopefully get something out of them. You know? I there's like an argument about, like, art versus craft. I'm not gonna unpack that all here. So for me, when I'm writing a book, I don't think about what do I wanna say. I think, why would someone wanna hear this? Like, what would they get from this? Like, what am I doing to justify the time they're spending with me and my ideas? Like, what am I giving back to their life? And, you know, it could be as small as, like, just a joke or something that makes them giggle, but, you know, I also I also really wanna write things that are smart and useful and funny and true, you know, because those are my favorite kinds of books. The ones where I walk away just with something new, with a new understanding of the world or myself or whatever it is. And so or just comfort. And I'm truly hoping with this book that it brings people who are having a hard time, which is a lot of us a lot of the time, some good comfort. I love that. Thank you. Awesome.

[38:40]Zibby Owens: Well, thank you so much, Kelly. It was so nice to talk to you. I'm so glad I got to your book finally after having it for so long and that we got to have this nice conversation.

[38:50]Kelly Williams Brown: And I'm sorry for all the stuff you've been through, but I'm really grateful that you shared it. And you're a really great writer, and I'm just really glad our paths have crossed. Me too. Thank you so much for having me, Zippy. And don't feel too bad because a lot of people go through terrible stuff and don't get a book deal. True. So, Very I mean, I can't I can't complain too much. You know what I mean? Okay. I don't feel that bad. Don't feel too bad. No. I'm to be on the other side. And I'm I'm weird as it sound, I'm grateful for those things happening because I feel like, at least in my life, I have noticed that when hard things happen, they are terrible. And then on the other side, I feel a little bit more capable and a little bit better at the very difficult and messy work of being a human. So if I could wave a wand and have those things not happen, I wouldn't. Perfect. Now you can, start getting ready to write a book called Middle Aging and you can send that my way when you're Oh, I need that. I'm there. I'm ready. I'm ready for some settling down. Thank you again, Zibby, for having me. Thank you. Take care. Thanks, Kelly. Bye bye. Bye bye.

[39:49]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram ZibbyOwens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.