Alex Aster, EMBLEM ISLAND: Curse of the Night Witch

[1:39]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Special announcement. I am teaming up with Katie Couric Media's Wake Up Call and Random House to give away 100 copies of the book Stranger Care by Sarah Santillis. I'm really excited about this. Here's a little about Sarah's book, and we collectively are giving away 100 copies. After their decision not to have a biological child, Sarah Santillis and her husband, Eric, decide to adopt via the foster care system. Despite knowing that the system's goal is the child's reunification with the birth family, Sarah opens their home to a flurry of social workers who question them, evaluate them, and ultimately prepare them to welcome a child into their lives even if it means most likely having to give the child back. Stranger care is an illuminating read, and Sarah will be on this podcast soon. So if you would like to enter for a chance to win, please go to the link in the episode description from right where you clicked on it and enter your email address first and last name. By doing so you're agreeing to the sweepstakes official rules and agree to receive communications and special offers from Katie Couric's wake up call and moms don't have time to read books. Thank you for doing it and enter to win today. Just go back to the episode description. Thanks again. Alex Aster is the award winning author of Curse of the Night Witch, the first in a series inspired by the stories her Colombian grandmother used to tell her before bedtime. She recently graduated summa cum laude from UPenn where she studied English. Her debut book received starred reviews from Kirkus and Publishers Weekly, was on Good Morning America, was named the most anticipated book of 2020 by Seventeen, was named one of the 20 best books of the year so far by Amazon, was chosen by Jessica Alba as a 2020 gift idea and recently won an international Latin American book award. Alex is also a TikTok star.

[4:06]Alex Aster: Enjoy. Welcome, Alex. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Curse of the Night Witch. Thank you so much for having me. I love your podcast, so I'm honored to be here. Well, we've talked several times already. And somehow we hadn't actually made it onto the podcast together, but we've done Instagram lives and all sorts of fun stuff. So it's nice to finally have it be here. Yes. I'm so excited. Alex, you have like broken out of the gate as this like major hit and you've been posting first of all, you're like a TikTok sensation. You're also a singer. So you had like a huge following to begin with. But now you're just like you're in the Barnes and Noble Book Club pick. You're like everywhere. It's amazing. And I know you're so grateful and I watch you crying all the time on social. Tell me like all about what this journey has been like. I want to talk about the book too, but the journey itself seems like super interesting. It's actually really, I guess, fortuitous that we're talking now because the journey started a year ago when my book first came out in hardcover and you were one of the first people I talked to about it. I was on your Instagram live show. I think the week that it debuted and it debuted kind of in the middle of the pandemic. So bookstores were either closed or they were just opening up and they weren't really ordering new books. So it wasn't necessarily the best time to debut. And that's when my first book came out. So when it debuted, I was lucky enough to have the critical acclaim of having starred reviews from Kirkus and all of these places and being featured in amazing publications. But the commercial success wasn't necessarily there because unless you were a huge author, people weren't really searching on Amazon or barnesandnoble.com new books. They were just kind of searching authors they already knew. And so for a year, the book sales were okay, but it was more like the critical acclaim was there, but the sales were definitely not what I had hoped for. So when Barnes and Noble picked my book to be their book of the month, that's when everything changed. And like you mentioned before, I did have a sizable following on TikTok previously, and that was great, but it was mainly because of my music. So it didn't necessarily translate into book lovers or book sales. And so when I knew that I was going to be the Barnes and Noble book of the month, which is such a cool opportunity because not only is it for paperback, so my book came out in paperback, it was a lot cheaper, it's a lot more accessible for people. They also changed the cover. And I think it's a lot more dynamic and kind of eye catching now. But also every single Barnes and Noble store, which I didn't know there were like six fifty around the world, which is just such a huge number. They have a huge table of them in every single location. So you can't really beat that type of exposure. And so I knew I'm gonna be in every Barnes and Noble, whereas before I maybe had one book in Barnes and Noble and even my local Barnes and Noble in Union Square didn't even have a copy. So I was kind of like, there was no chance for me to break through at that point, but I saw this as my huge opportunity. So I was like, I am 100% going to go all in on TikTok. And so I convinced my mom to do a road trip with me across the country to over 50 Barnes and Nobles. And so I wanted to go to sign all the books, but also to get a lot of content. And it ended up being the best decision I could have ever made because I had over 15 videos go viral on TikTok about my book and about my Barnes and Noble journey. And they got over 500,000 views. Some had millions of views, even on Instagram reels, which I had never really messed around with before. And so it just became this thing where at the very beginning of my book tour, would go to some Barnes and Nobles and they would have no idea who I was, even though my book was, like, on a table with, like, tons of books. They were like, oh, we haven't really heard of this. By the end, I had people in Barnes and Noble, like, not only the people who worked there, but people who were just casually shopping. Like, they knew about my book from TikTok. Even I have, like, a viral post about I was there signing books and this girl like did a double take. And at first I was like, oh, she's probably just like, oh, are you an author? That's cool. But she literally stopped, pulled my book out of her shopping bag that she had just purchased and said, I literally just came here because I saw your TikTok and I wanted to buy your book and you're here. So those kinds of moments are things that obviously go viral because they're so fortuitous and insane. But it would have never happened if I hadn't dedicated an entire month to traveling across the country with my mom, like going to so many Barnes and Noble and also documenting it on social media. So now I definitely feel like people are kind of referring to me as the viral TikTok girl. And then also because of my new book deal that I partially got because of a viral TikTok video. So I got like a You fantasy series book deal because one of my videos has like over 1,500,000 views. And it was basically just me pitching my concept for the book. And so I'm really thankful to TikTok because for that one, it's a little bit Some people think like, oh, I just made a TikTok video and I got this big book deal because of it. And Zippy definitely knows. That's not really how the world works. I had already been published, I already had star reviews, and I had already written the manuscript and it was on submission to publishers by the time I posted the video. And so it actually was down to just a few publishers. A lot of people had rejected it. So I made the video to kind of get market validation that like, yes, this is a good idea. Because as you know, Zippy, You fantasy is super saturated. And so even though I had these book deals before, a lot of publishers weren't really willing to take the risk on my book. And so I put it out there to be like, okay, I know people will want to read this. And immediately, like in twenty four hours, I got over a million views. And that really helped me seal the book too. So yeah, I think TikTok is an amazing tool for market validation. It's a free tool, a free marketing tool. I got so many views, I think over 5,000,000 total views on my TikTok videos for my book and my book tour that I could have never afforded in terms of marketing dollars. So yeah, I really owe a lot to TikTok. Do you know anyone there now? Can you send them a thank you note? TikTok? Yeah. Not really. I mean, I'm kind of getting more involved with sponsored posts and stuff. Before, I never really did ads because for me it was like, I'm already trying to sell something on my TikTok channel. I have books to sell. So for me, it's more important for me to have a page that people want to visit than get whatever money I can from each TikTok post. But I will say the people at Barnes and Noble I know now because they were really impressed by what I did. And apparently they're really happy with how many views I was able to get. And that's just free. All I had to have is a phone and go across the country with my mom to get these videos. And so I'm really proud that we sold thousands of copies last month because of TikTok. And we actually tripled the amount of sales I'd gotten in an entire year in a month. Oh my gosh. And then the second book came out last week. And so it was great timing because people had just found out about it And actually I had this big virtual book tour with huge authors I admire so much that I was basically able to do because of my TikTok following. And one of the big authors was like, Oh, it's so strange how your first book came out and then the second book is coming out like a month later. So smart. And in my head, I was like, my first book came out last year. It's just the paperback, but no one had heard of my book until May. So the second book in hardcover or paperback? It's in hardcover. So the first book did come out last year, like when we talked and then it just came out in paperback in May and that's when everyone kind of discovered it. And so it was like regular publishing timing for the second book to come out now. But people are just like thinking that maybe it was like a smart, like strategic thing. I wonder if you'll find anything interesting with sales of this one on hardcover versus paperback to see if that's actually a factor or if it was just random. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. I think the paper bag was cool because a lot of the TikTok audience that I have is younger. And so it really is like a hard sell, like a $17 book from an author that you've never heard of. I do think that people who read the first book and loved it at like $6 or $7 are definitely probably more willing to buy the second book. And because it's been so popular, retailers are doing a sale. So now it's like $15 for the second book. But yeah, it's just really interesting for a series because I didn't know if there would be enough demand for me to have like a third book or a fourth book in the series. Now that's definitely discussion because of TikTok and because of Barnes and Noble. And so I'm so grateful to both platforms because truly the number of sales I had before was just so tiny compared to now. And now even I'll go to Barnes and Noble and they'll tell me that my book series is one of the best selling children's book series right now. And that's just insane to me that I'm really proud that I kind of did that through TikTok. It wasn't like I had this huge marketing budget or anything. Wait, Alex, do you have any idea how Barnes and Noble chose your book? Like how did you get picked to begin with? So it was definitely through my publisher. Like I had no idea that it was being submitted. I know that this is a relatively new program. It's like a paperback program. So they pick every month, like books of the month per category, they're all in paperback. And I know I was chosen back in January, so I couldn't say anything for a long time, but I knew this was happening. And so I had a while to plan. Yes, I planned. I had stickers made that I was going to give all the people who bought the book. I knew that I was going to plan a book tour from New York City down to Miami with my mom. And so I had a while to plan, but I really thought if this is like, this is my one chance to really launch the series and have people discover it. And I'm so glad that it worked out because there's no guarantee on TikTok. And I know, Zippy, you've gone viral now on TikTok. You just never know what's going to go viral or not. And it's so hard nowadays too with so much content, it is becoming oversaturated. So for me to have gone consistently viral still, I'm just shocked that it happened, but I'm definitely grateful. It's amazing. I know you and Joe Piazza and I had this call in the summer. Was it? Like a couple months ago? I can't even remember what season. Was the same week that I had posted the video that went viral for my You series. I remember I was like, I just posted a video yesterday and it's kind of blowing up. I think I had like 300,000 views when I was talking to you. And then I got the book deal last week. Oh my gosh. Alex, that's amazing. I know Joe and I are like, what do we do? What do mean TikTok? How are we gonna do it? You definitely figured it out. No. I haven't. I have to say it's not even me. This woman, Nina Vargas, on my team has been amazing and was like, let's try this on TikTok. And I was like, go for it. Because my own TikTok, as you've seen at Zamie Owens, is like horrific. Nobody ever goes there. I like cannot. My kids are helping me so much. And, like, no matter what I do, it's not working. And then Nina tried it and it got, like, 1,200,000 views or something. And now they're blocking us because I guess they think it's, like, not appropriate content, which is completely not true. I mean, it's like, you know, women's magazine type content. But anyway, that's withzibi what does it go? Withzibiandtracey. Withzibiandtracey. Anyway, but I tried to put in all of your helpful comments and like I've been trying all of your tricks and stuff from our last talk. So I don't know. Well, I'm gonna you're you're totally an inspiration on the on the TikTok front And for obviously, the author front. And it's not like this just happened. I mean, I know you're I don't know how old you are and or if you're even willing to admit how young you are. But 25. But you graduated like magna cum laude from the University of Pennsylvania. So it's not like you're some random person. You're this like, in an English major, right? So you're obviously like super gifted and bright. And it's, you know, you've said before when I've talked to you how it had taken you a long time, which is like for older people, that sounds like a joke because they've tried their whole lives. Still, if you've been trying to do this thing for like a decade, it's still a decade of your life. And now all of a sudden, can reap all these rewards. It's amazing.

[16:32]Zibby Owens: Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[19:21]Alex Aster: Yeah. I think that it's surprising a lot of people. First of all, they definitely think I'm younger than I am. When I went to a lot of Barnes and Noble's, a lot of people were like, you're the author. And they were like, you're so young. I was like, I'm 25. And some of them were like, oh, we thought you were, eight too. I was like, oh, wow, thanks. But they definitely think I'm younger than I am, first of all. And second of all, I think that even just being 25, people think like, oh, I just got lucky. I just went to Penn and graduated summa cum laude and just decided to be an author and published my first book. And that's definitely not my journey. I started trying to get published when I was 12. And so it was like thirteen years ago, almost fourteen years ago. And so I really do think that it just depends on when you started. If I started now, there's no way I would be published next year. I would be published in like twelve years or thirteen years because the Emblem Island, Curse of the Night Witch, the first book that I got a book deal for, was my sixth book that I wrote. And I wrote like three books in college. I wrote three books in high school. And so it's been a really long journey for me. I definitely think it would be easier for me to be like, oh yeah, I just came out of the woodwork and just got this book deal and then got this bigger book deal. But even my first book deal was so small compared to my recent book deal that I got. And I got my first book deal in 2018. So it's not even like it was three years ago. So I think it would be like an oversimplification to just be like, oh, she got a book deal from TikTok. And I know that that's the catchy way to look at it, but it's so much more than that. And I definitely think that I see a lot of people kind of trying to emulate what I did with my viral video to get a big book deal. And I really do want to emphasize that it's not like I just made a video and then I got the book deal and now I'm writing the book. It was written like it's been a really long journey and it's been really hard. I was rejected thousands of times. I'm definitely not like the genius person who just decides to write a book and is like, I was never the best reader, never the best writer. Like Penn in all my writing classes. Like there were so many people that were so much better than me. I just think I'm the only one who never gave up. And so I just think that that's the only reason why now I am published. But it was really hard. Like I got my first agent the day I graduated from Penn. I skipped my graduation because I thought, oh my gosh, my life is now beginning. I'm living my dream. I spent all summer revising that manuscript. I went on submission that fall and it didn't sell. And I parted ways with my agent. So six months after graduating from Penn, I didn't have an agent. I didn't have a book deal and I had to start from scratch. I wrote another book that didn't get me an agent and didn't sell. And then I wrote another one and that was Curse of the Night Witch. I did get an agent. It took six months for that to sell and it was for a really small amount. And then it took me three more years after that to get the big book deal. So I think just like anyone who's an aspiring writer, you really have to do it for the love of writing. You can't do it for anything else because I just feel like there are so many easier ways to make money or to be famous or whatever you want to do. But I truly love it and it's been my dream since I was 12. So the fact that I get to do it now, like successfully and legitimately is just so amazing. And then I really I did take advantage of TikTok. I joined TikTok the day I got my first book deal in 2018. That's the only reason why I joined. At first I got a following through just doing trends and music. But once BookTok became a thing, and it really is a thing now, it's influencing the entire market. Barnes and Noble has BookTok tables in every location. It's just lucky that I decided to join a few years ago. But yeah, it's really helped me now. It's amazing. Wait. So what is on the book talk table at Barnes and Noble? Accounts that are broken up on TikTok? Yeah. It's just every I mean, as you know, TikTok, every single day, there's a new trending thing. So even if you think you figured it out, like the next day, it's something else. You really have to love TikTok to really even be on it because I love it. I'm on it every single day for hours. And if I decide to take a break for a week, I'm already lost because there's a new trend. There's a new trending book. So yeah, most of them are young adult books. So it's kind of been like with the Emblem Island series is middle grade. So it has been a little bit tough to get people to buy the book because a lot of people want romance in their books and it's not You. It is middle grade. So I do think that my You series will do better on TikTok. But I've still seen the sales translate into real life. And I know how hard it is to get someone to buy something from a video. I tried for a year and it didn't work. So the fact that now it's working and now and that coupled with the Barnes and Noble, it really was luck, but it took a long time to get lucky, I guess. It's so true. I mean, it's really hard to get people to buy things from anything. I mean, you need people to especially an unknown quantity like a book. I mean, I keep saying this, but like movies, like you kind of know what you're getting into, especially now as you can't give the endings away and half the trailers anyway. I'm always like pausing my trailers because I'm like, yes, I want to watch it. Don't show me anymore. I've watched the whole movie. Right? I know. But at least we like know what's coming. And I feel like that's part of why books are hard to justify as an expense. Like, you don't know what's coming and it's going to take you hours to get through it. And, you know, that's why I think like videos, like trailers, and all these types of more modern ways of selling books have to be sort of back on the table so that people know like what they're getting into. Right? And it's working fast. Yeah. And I think nowadays too, people really want to believe in the person who's making the product. Like for me, I saw I was so surprised that anyone wanted any book personalized and signed by me. So I thought mainly I was just selling the story, but I got so many orders through my local independent bookstore and even people paying $70 for international shipping just for me to sign like a $7 book. It really, I think, is a testament to the fact that people want to know the creators and even you. I obviously follow you. And when you posted those COVID shirts I was just wearing, I just changed into a dress for the interview. I got one in black and one in white, and it's the comfiest, most amazing shirt that I definitely wear all the time. And I bought it because of you and also the shirt, but because I love you and I love your content. So I think that that's also something that's like the new modern age of social media is it's not just the thing that someone is selling. Like, they really wanna believe in, like, the person behind the product. That's very astute. I totally agree. I feel like yeah. Because it's really the shorthand for like when we all would be together and being like, You should do this, and having like friend or somebody be like, this is what you know, this is why I love this. Like yeah. Yeah. So now I just shout what I love from the rooftops. I'm like, it just finished. It's so good or something like that. Yeah. So, Yeah, that's awesome. By the way, I just before this interview, I took your little quiz on your website for which Emblem? Oh my gosh, which emblem did you I got leadership. Oh, well, that makes sense. I feel like you might not think it makes sense, but you really are like the shepherd, herding everyone into a direction. Like, you need to read this book or you need to learn from this person. You really are an influencer, even though you might not like that term. Are. I've read so many books from your podcast recommendations or your Instagram. I bought so many products too, like the shirts, for example. Immediately, I was just like, yep, wow. I'm so glad that that worked. I feel like you're more like an influencer. I don't know. I feel like the term influencer comes with like, I don't know, wardrobe than I have or something. Like, I'm not like, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm 44 years old. I'm chasing after my kids' seventh day. Like, you know, I'm just like, you know, not to say I'm like everyone else, you know, but I don't know. I'm just trying to get through the day half the time. Yeah. I'm not like the highly stylized influencer. It's more just like, I'm glad people even care. That's why it's great I can introduce people who might not know about books like you or like moms who are looking for their kids to have some summer reading. Like yours is a great this is a fantastic option for kids who are at home. And like, I feel like, for kids who, don't always like reading, they need books that they can really identify with and that are entertaining and well written and all this stuff. I think that's important. I had never met kids who had read my book because of the pandemic. When it came out, obviously I haven't been meeting with anyone and the road trip was really like after I was vaccinated, it was the only time I was comfortable being in a store. So those were really the first times I was even having interacted with anyone for a year. And so I met so many parents and kids and the kids were like, oh, I didn't like to read until I read your book. And I really identified with that because even though, yes, I became a really good student, I went to this good college and obviously I became a writer and a reader. I was not the best reader. I didn't like to read until I read something that was actually enjoyable. And I think even going to college and you read so many literary works, as you know, you also went to early school. Like, I definitely think there's room for magic in your reading. Like, that doesn't mean that it's any lesser quality of reading. It doesn't have to be literary. But kids just aren't going to love reading if they're just reading the stuff that they're required to read in school. And so I just think that's so important. When I was writing this book, I know we've talked a little bit about the book, but it's called Emblem Island Curse of the Night, which is the first book. And it's basically set in a world where everyone's born knowing their fate and their talents. So everyone's born with emblems, which represents their superpower or their role in society. And the main character is born with an emblem that he doesn't like. So he and his two best friends, they make a wish, the wish turns into a curse, and to break the curse, they have to go find the night witch. And they to find the night witch, they have to follow these legends that they read from a book called the Book of Puentos, and the legends turn out to be real. So they encounter the creatures from the legends and the different stories and the landscapes from the legends. And those legends are actually based on Colombian mythology and I'm Colombian. So it's important for me to include those. And I just, I'm glad that it is critically acclaimed and it got star reviews and stuff because I really do want parents to see, oh, it's supposedly a good book, but it's also fun. That was my main purpose in writing it because I, again, didn't like books until I read something that I really liked. And all the research shows, instead of trying to get your kids to get good grades or paying them for good grades, the best thing you can do is give them books and make them read. Because even if it's not literary works, reading just does help you in every other sentence of every subject matter, the SATs or whatever. So yeah, I just, I love to read. I'm so glad that so many kids are discovering reading on TikTok. That's like the most rewarding comment I'll get is like, oh, I don't like to read, but I read your book and I really liked it. And it's a long book. It's not like it's a short it's like three thirty pages, but it's definitely, I think, great for kids and also adults. It's like the same genre as Harry Potter and Percy Jackson. So not like I see a lot of young adults and adults reading it, which is amazing. But yeah, that was really my goal to write something that would get kids into reading. It's so important. I love that. So great. Thank you for getting kids into reading. I'm struggling to get mine into reading. It's so true, by the way. Like, I remember at college, I thought I was gonna be an English major. And I got there and like the English department had this required course that you had to take. Mhmm. And it was like, you know, The Odyssey and The Iliad. I'd already read all that stuff and like, this is weird or something. And like all these like really dense like Ulysses. I'm like, that is no thing. I can't do that. Like that so I ended up becoming a psychology major because psychology, I was like, well, I want to take every single one of these classes. For the English classes, I wanted to only take like introduction to prose writing, which I loved, you know? But no. So I don't know. You have to find what you love and not be embarrassed about it, I guess. You do. And also in college, like, I want to say, like, I graduated English major, like, with honors, like perfect grades and everything. In my first classes, I read poems and had no idea what they meant. I read works like the Iliad Odyssey, like all of these old English books and had no idea what I was reading. It was really hard for me. It wasn't like a natural thing. And so it was just like practice makes perfect. And the same for writing. Was not naturally good at any of it. It was just something I was interested in. So I feel like a lot of people when they hear fancy college, fancy whatever, I was never good at it. I just literally just forced myself to be good at it by working hard. So yeah, I totally agree with you. I took so many of these classes and probably shouldn't have because I went in there and everyone else seemed so much smarter than me always. Yeah, they still are. Mean, oh my gosh. I'm with you. It's the whole like passion and perseverance model, right? Exactly. You're really into what I do. You're really into it. Like we love, you know, if you love to write, like, you know, no matter how many times, I'm just going to keep doing it. Right? Because that's what I do. It's like what I love and it doesn't matter what happens. Yeah. A 100%. There are, I mean, some of the most brilliant people who could write that I knew in college are no longer writing at all. And, you know, that's fine, but they're great lawyers or whatever, you know? But Exactly. Their own thing. So anyway, well, Alex, I feel like you've already given so much advice. Do you have any parting advice for aspiring authors? You've given so much. Yeah, I definitely I was rejected so many times. And so my main advice would just be to not take rejection personally because at the end of the day, publishing is a business. And this is probably the only business I know of that no one gets paid until the very end. So if you get a rejection from an agent or a publisher, honestly, it's kind of a gift because people are reading your work for free. Like they're not getting paid. It's not like you're paying them money to read your query or read your manuscript. No one gets paid until your book sells. And that can take months. So in this industry, no rejection is personal. It's literally only business. People only have so many hours of the day for them to work. To just keep going. Also, like something that I wish I had known is like patience really is the key to this writing career. If I had had more patience, it probably wouldn't have taken me like twelve years to get a book deal. Because if I had just stuck with one book and edited it and taken the time, months or even a year to edit it and make it my best foot forward, I wouldn't have constantly had to be rewriting manuscripts and trying to get agents and trying to get publishing deals. So I think if you love it, just dedicate time to it. Even if it takes years, publishing is not a fast industry. Even if you get a book deal tomorrow, it won't come out for at least two years or a year and a half. So you might as well take the time that your book needs. Because once you're in contracts and Zippy knows this because you have so many book deals now, like you will never have more time to write a book than before you get your first book deal, because then you only have a year to write a book or you only have six months to write a book because now you're on a publishing schedule. So I would just say, don't let rejection get to you. Every single book that you've loved that has won awards, that has movies has been rejected multiple times. So just don't give up if you love it. I truly believe just again, I was never the best writer. I was never the prodigy of the class. There were so many of those that now aren't writers because I guess they chose a different path. Anyone can be published. Anyone can follow their dreams and achieve it. It just might take ten years. If you're willing to put in the work, do it. Do it. Ten years and a lot of fun. Awesome. Alex, thank you so much. Thanks for having another conversation with me. And you're being so inspirational and upfront and just awesome. It's really great. It's really awesome. And I am so excited just to watch your career unfold and know that I'll be sort of, you know, rooting from the sidelines as you go on the next sort of leg of this marathon. I'll be cheering. Thank you so much, Zoe. Take care. Bye. Thanks

[35:38]Zibby Owens: for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.