Marla Frazee, THE FARMER AND THE CIRCUS

[1:19]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of moms don't have time to lose weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Another day of my book blast. Enjoy these children's book one children's book, one middle grade book. And actually, one of them is cohosted by my children, which you will figure out if you listen to both. So enjoy. Marla Frazee is the author and illustrator of The Farmer and the Circus. Marla was awarded a Caldecott Honor for All the World and A Couple of Boys Have the Best Week Ever and the Golden Globe Horn Book Award for Picture Book for The Farmer and the Clown. She is the author illustrator of Roller Coaster, Walk On, Santa Claus, the world's number one toy expert, The Boss Baby, which is also a movie which everybody should watch, and Boot and Shoot, as well as the illustrator of many other books including the Seven Silly Eaters, Stars, the New York Times bestselling Clementine series, which by the way is so so good, and God Got a Dog. Marla has three grown sons, a little free library in her front yard, and a studio in her backyard under an avocado tree. Doesn't that sound nice? Welcome, Marla. Thanks for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thank you, Zibby. It's so good to be here. I'm really thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. As I've told you, I know this has taken several tries to connect, but my kids throughout the years have loved the things that you've worked on, and especially the Clementine series and all those illustrations. And I read the Clementine series with my older daughter and my younger daughter, like mostly renters. Anyway, such a huge fan. Am so much respect. Boss baby. Like, oh my gosh, you've done the coolest stuff. So thanks for coming. Oh, thank you. Okay. So your latest book series, The Farmer and the Monkey, The Farmer and the Circus, The Farmer and the Clown, which is this is the most recent. Correct? Farmer and the Clown? No. That was that came out in 2014.

[3:41]Marla Frazee: Okay. So I'm missing it all up already. Yeah. No. That's okay. Four years later, I decided to kinda tell the rest of the story. So when the farmer and the clown came out, to me, it was a singular book. I had no intention of doing two more books.

[3:58]Zibby Owens: And then what happened? Well, I had Wait. Go wait. Go back. Why did you tell me about doing the farmer and the clown to begin with and thinking about this. Like, what inspired this book? And then and then how did you end up revisiting it? You know, the funny thing was I went to a clown

[4:13]Marla Frazee: performance at my son's high school. At the time, I don't know, I have three sons and maybe the youngest was still in high school. I'm not quite sure. That makes sense. But he wasn't in the clown show. I just went to this performance and I thought it was so, you know, I knew some of the kids and it was really evocative. They had kind of adopted their own persona for a clown character and then pantomimed with to music, whatever their story was. And so it had a silent film aspect. And I was really intrigued by thinking about, I was thinking about clowns after that. And I don't really even like clowns. But I kept thinking I want to do a clown book. And all the ideas I had just didn't go anywhere. And then one day I was riding my bike on a beach. I was on a beach vacation with my family. And I just stopped and thought, oh my god, I just saw the two characters. There's a kind of stern Amish looking farmer holding the hand of this little baby clown. And they were together. And I thought, what? Why? Why are they together? I mean, I have to figure out why. And so I started to spin out the beginning, what became the beginning of the story. You know, the farmers in this field, the circus train goes by, something falls off the back, he goes to investigate, it's a baby clown in his field. And I just, I had to write, I had to get it down on paper. So that's how it started. And when I told the story of the farmer and the clown, and I started to draw it, I realized that because it was about two characters who look one way, but are actually a different way. And that we kind of assume they're one way, we assume the farmer serve a grumpy, grouchy farmer and the clown is smiling. So we assume it's a little happy character, but in reality, they're both very different. The farmer is actually very kind and nurturing. The clown is not happy. He's when the makeup comes off, he's lost and scared. That I decided to tell it in a wordless way because I didn't want to tell the viewer what was happening. I wanted to show them. Much as it is when we're out in the world and we have a first impression. And then we realize we're wrong, you know, about that. So that's how it became wordless. And that's kind of the beginning of that, what has now become a trilogy.

[6:47]Zibby Owens: And so then what made you come back to this series? What made you come back to it and why these two? So I had this image of a monkey or

[7:01]Marla Frazee: I mean, I've had insomnia off and on my whole life. Remember when I was in fifth grade, I think that's when it really started. I just wasn't sleeping because I was just anxious about things in fifth grade things, which were a big deal.

[7:17]Zibby Owens: Sure.

[7:18]Marla Frazee: Yeah, we always have things that are big deals, and it was a big deal. And so in 2018, I was going through a significant breakup, and I was heartbroken. And I didn't sleep for a long time, like really seriously didn't sleep. I felt like I was losing my mind. It's a pretty and I was trying everything. I mean, would talk to anybody I I met, like, have you ever had insomnia? And then they would give me an idea that I could try, you know, whatever it might and I tried all kinds of things. And the thing that I remembered is that when I worked on the Farmer and the Clown, I was at that time from 02/1314 when I was sort of working on it, going through a divorce. And during like the those days of, you know, lawyers and mediation stuff, you know, I would come home from all that, it was so stressful. And I would do the art for that book, and it would kind of calm me down. So I thought, well, instead of going to think about my life and all the stuff that just, you know, was going on, I'll just think about the landscape of the farm. I'm going to go back into that story and just sort of spin out what happened to the little clown when, you know, he returned to his clown troop. Like he had to have been a change. He had to have changed what happened to the farmer when he returned home, what happened when he realized the monkey had followed him home, all the things, all the threads that sort of were there. I just kind of started to spin out in my mind. And I have this story I wanted to tell when it was like, as I was going through this breakup, I re imagined a love story. And it was a love story in three parts. And it was a love story I could control. And I needed to tell it. And I called my editor, Ellen Johnston of Beach Lane Books, she published the first one. And And I said, okay, I have a question for you. I mean, you might not want to do this, but what if we did two more books? And she was like, okay. And so I cleared the deck and did the two books in a row and here they are. And I'm really proud of them. It was a very personal story to tell and not easy because there are three books that go in order. There's a beginning and a middle and an end. And I wanted each of those books to stand on their own. And then I also wanted there to be a larger narrative arc with the three books so that the end felt like a finale and it, you know. And I also wanted to make sure as I did the work that I wasn't adding something extraneous that like I was just pulling on the threads that were already there in the first book. And I don't know, I was real proud when I finished. I'm real excited about it and happy with it. I mean, the real question is, did you then fall asleep?

[10:24]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Like did it help the insomnia at all?

[10:27]Marla Frazee: I mean, we've had a pandemic. I mean, yes and no. I mean, yes, it got better. I think you have to train your body back into sleep. There's a book I read during that time, Insomnia, called by Marina Benjamin. Do you know that book? It's a beautiful book. That really helped me because she just explores insomnia from a place of not being a negative thing, but actually a place that can be a creative

[10:58]Zibby Owens: space to be in. Have you read Samantha Harvey's? It's called A Night of Sleepless Unease.

[11:04]Marla Frazee: No, but I'm writing this down. You should read that. So she it's almost like poetry at times, but

[11:11]Zibby Owens: she could not sleep for a long time. And she felt like she was going crazy. And that was part of what she ended up writing about was like this examination of the not sleeping.

[11:22]Marla Frazee: And that's a very similar

[11:24]Zibby Owens: premise to insomnia, the book. That's I'm get that book. That's great. Yeah. It was good. It was very she was like, or listen to me. I will. I will do that too. I'll read you that. Yeah. Insomnia is no joke. I went through periods of that and I'm always afraid it's gonna come back. Know, like every night, like, I hope not. I remember I would call my grandmother and I'd be like, I, you know, I can't sleep. Have such trouble sleeping. And she's like, so you'll be tired. That's a good way to look at it. It's made me feel better because it's like, okay, you're right. What's the worst that's gonna happen? I'm I'm gonna have like a terrible day tomorrow. Alright. Well, I've had terrible days before. I'll get through them. You know? So I don't know. For me, it was so much the anxiety that was keeping my brain going and I don't know. I started to grade myself. Like in the morning, I'd be like, well, I failed. That was an F. But then other nights, it'd be like, well, it's a D plus.

[12:18]Marla Frazee: That's better. Or, you know, C minus. I mean, I just really and and when I got into the B range, you know, I thought, good for me. Like, this is great. Yeah. There you go. I'm not an A plus sleeper. I don't expect to be. Yeah, that's okay. The way people's minds work. I mean, it's so interesting, right? I mean, otherwise we wouldn't have these books sitting here.

[12:40]Zibby Owens: This is like your creativity, maybe that's just part of the makeup of it. Like there are pros and cons, right?

[12:47]Marla Frazee: That's a good way to look at it too. Yeah. I mean Yeah. I mean, as a result, I have this this project that consumed me really for six years. Wow. And a story that I feel I feel like all my all my books are really personal to me. Like, they come out of periods of my life that I wouldn't have been able to do them at any other time of my life. Like, they just are very organic to whatever I'm going through. But these books, more than most of my books are just they, they feel almost like dreams I've had that are now, you know, manifested as a physical object, which is weird. It's a weird feeling, you know, like, woah.

[13:31]Zibby Owens: But that's, that's how they, that's my relationship to these books. I mean, that's amazing. Because I mean, think about all the people who can't, like me. I mean, I can't draw for anything and to be able to have the craziness of your own dreams suddenly be out of your head. Right? And to finally like be able to put it to bed, if you will. Right? Yeah,

[13:54]Marla Frazee: exactly. Yeah. Yes. It's

[13:56]Zibby Owens: like, okay, boom, now I can sleep. How, not to totally pry, but like what happened with the heartache piece of it? Did you get over that? Did you find new happiness? Like, you okay?

[14:11]Marla Frazee: Am okay. And I'm in another, a new relationship that sort of became part of my life while I was working on the finishes to the second and third book, which was interesting because the story was, I was telling myself was to sort of heal myself. It was a love story I needed to kind of get on with things. But then there were these echoes in which, you know, it's like I was as surprised as the characters in the book, you know, myself personally. I think one of the things I wanted to do with these books, you know, because my audience is, I I focus on the audience of, like, children who may not know how to read yet. That's my audience. And they're really so visually literate. They can read pictures better than people who do read words, because that's how they get their information. And so they take all the time they need to kind of soak in the pictures and they see everything and they follow stories well beyond their capacity to read words about what the story, the meaning from words. So when I'm drawing pictures for children and picture books, I know they're gonna get stuff that maybe they don't have the actual vocabulary to articulate, but they will take in the story on a really deep level. And what I wanted to do with these books is kind of show how people fall in love, how grownups fall in love to children. Because it really impacts their lives, especially if they're step kids or, you know, adopt kids, like their families get formed in all kinds of ways. And all of a sudden they have this life that, you know, because they're people have fallen in love with each other and form families. And I really wanted to show that, like, how does that happen? And I feel like one of the ways that I think it happens is that in the most positive sense is that we are just, if we're open to experiences and if we're sometimes just because of random connections and serendipitous like occurrences, we are just there, these things happen and you follow it. And then in retrospect, it makes total sense. Like, oh, of course, these two met and maybe fell in love with each other and formed this life together. But when it's happening, it's not it's maybe because of all these other extraneous things that are going on. I mean, when the farmer who lives alone, who's probably totally fine doing so, finds this clown in his field and he decides and knows he's the one that needs to care for this lost clown and does. You know, he's taking himself out of himself and doing what needs to be done. When he returns the clown to the train and the clown troop, you know, the clown parent who I'm going to call she, but who knows, you know, she is so grateful, obviously, and relieved to have her baby back and sees this farmer who helped that happen. You know, and so it's not like that was obvious in the first book, but when you think about it, what that connection was. And then the little clown goes off in the third book, and he's no longer clown. He's sort of farmer now. Wants to adopt, he wants to kind of play act what he saw the farmer doing. And when she then sees him again, that connection's already been made before they even knew it through the conduit of this child. So I just wanted to kind of manifest that in some way that a child could

[18:08]Zibby Owens: access. Well, that's a beautiful way to tell a love story. I mean, and so unique and amazing. How did you even how did you get into this whole line of work to begin with? Like, how did you end up? And how do you decide when you're gonna do a book all on your own versus collaborate and do illustrations?

[18:26]Marla Frazee: And like, how did this all happen to you? I've always wanted to do it. I mean, really, since as far back as I can remember, I wanted to illustrate, write and illustrate children's books, because I fell in love with children's books as a little kid. And I was really lucky because I grew up in a house with books. My mom had been an elementary school teacher and went back to it after we went to elementary school, but we had her teaching stuff. And among that stuff was a book that I loved, The Carrot Seed. And we had access to the public library in town and my mom would take us and I would look at books there. Our elementary school had a library, which, you know, a lot of elementary schools no longer do. And the ones that do are so fortunate. And so I just loved books and I wanted to do it. I loved drawing and I loved reading. And so that was sort of what I always said I wanted to do. And then I went to Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, majored in advertising illustration, kind of then focused it more on illustration. But even though I really wanted to do children's books, there weren't at that time classes on it. And I didn't, there wasn't that much going on in Southern California having to do with publishing. I did get out of school and had a portfolio that I just kept, you know, sending to publishing houses and hoping to get published. And at that time, for many years, I was getting a lot of commercial work in advertising and textbook illustration and, you know, editorial stuff, but I could not break into publishing. And that took a while, that took a long time. And then when I finally did, I was published as an illustrator, did a number of books before I actually wrote and illustrated. And then when that's first started to take hold, which, I mean, I was really grateful about that because it's a whole different process to write and illustrate your own work and to illustrate somebody else's manuscript. Then I would kind of alternate. That was sort of the rhythm I got into for a while. So I would illustrate somebody else's manuscript and then I would kind of be cooking up something that I could do of my own.

[20:51]Zibby Owens: Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[23:36]Marla Frazee: And now and now it's it's not as organized, but

[23:41]Zibby Owens: that's that's sort of what I I try and do. And then was it just the coolest thing when Boss Baby became, like Oh. Great. Mean, what was that like for you? I mean Unbelievable.

[23:51]Marla Frazee: I mean, when the book came out, before the book was actually published, I think it was at the Bologna Book Fair, so it was almost published. And somebody from DreamWorks, you know, a development person saw it and wanted to option it. And so I heard about that before the book was out, and I was like, great. That's fantastic news. But I didn't really think it was going to be that it was gonna become a a movie. I mean, it was like they auctioned it for a feature length film. And I thought, what would that ever be? What would it ever look like? It's a 32 page picture book. And so I just didn't expect it, which was probably a good attitude to have about it. You know, I thought if it happens, would be amazing. It probably won't happen. And then it just, it kept kind of moving through the process. And so six, seven years later, it was a film and it was just so fun. And because I live in Southern Cal, I live in Pasadena and DreamWorks is in Burbank or Glendale, I don't know, twenty, fifteen minutes away from me. They would invite me occasionally to the studio to see sort of where they were with the process of making it. And it was always so fun and exciting to kind of get a peek into, you know, what that was. And I've always loved animation. And my first job out of school was to work at Disney for a second. I worked there for a second, and then I left to freelance. But I mean, I know, I mean, how much I love animation, but I don't know anything really about it. And so but I know, you know, the creativity that goes into it and I'm just in awe of a lot of aspects of it. And so watching the people, meeting the people that are working on it and seeing the passion that they had for what they were doing, it was fun. It was so fun. I had a great time. Aw, that's amazing. How great.

[25:49]Zibby Owens: I used to work in Pasadena, by the way. I worked there for like a year and a half or something. Oh yeah? Something like that at Idealab. Did you ever hear of that company? It's like, it was on West Union Street or something. Anyway I did. Big fact, this is like twenty years ago or something. More than twenty years ago. Oh, this is embarrassing. Was it like a design firm? It was an internet incubator and we launched all these internet businesses. Oh, wow. It was really fun at the time. It was like a big deal when it was there. Then like, I don't know, then it kind of disappeared. Although I have to say I did go back recently with my husband and it still is there, it's in a different form. And I took him inside and I was like, Hey, you know, I used to work here. Like, it's like, is that the office manager's still here? And they're all like, Who are you? Was like, Don't you remember me from 1999? You know, it's like an episode of Back to the Future. They like didn't let me in. And I was like, just peek around the corner. Go my husband's like, what are you doing? I was like, no. That's my desk over there. Anyway, was ridiculous. So when you decided what Clementine should look like, just because I love that series so much, Tell me about that process. Like, did she just like pop into your head or like, how do you design a whole new person who people will relate to? And by the way, why is that not a a movie or a series or something? Right?

[27:08]Marla Frazee: Yeah. I mean, it would be a great series or something. I mean, Sarah Pennypacker, who wrote Clementine books, they're so funny. They're so funny. I mean, they're so funny. And before I saw that manuscript, I had been saying to people who were sending me manuscripts to potentially illustrate his picture books, you know what I'm looking for? I would love to illustrate a chapter book, you know, much like the Beverly Cleary books. Like I love those books and I'd love to try my hand at that. And at the time there weren't that many chapter books that were illustrated being done. People would say repeatedly to me, well, yeah, those books were great, but we're not really doing those anymore. And my agent is Sarah Pennypacker's agent, Steve Malk. And he sent me this 25 page manuscript that Sarah had written that was sort of the beginnings of Clementine. It wasn't the full first chapter book, but it was sort of an, it was her character, it was her voice, it was the situation. And I read it and I was like, I'm in, I want to do this so badly. And so then it became seven books over the course of, I don't know, at least seven years, maybe more. And I have three boys. And so at the time, it was most of their friends that would play in our yard and our house were boys. I kind of needed a girl that I could sort of, of the age of Clementine that I could hang out with. And so one of my friend's daughters, Kate, was my Clementine model. And so I would go hang out with her and like take pictures of stuff in her room and just like listen to her talk about her friends. And then I did a lot of exploratory drawings in which Clementine I was trying to figure out how to draw her, what she would look like, how realistic, how cartooned. And it wasn't until I drew her waiting to see the principal outside in the corridor or outside of the principal's office. Like, how Clementine would wait to see the principal? And she's all squirmy in the chair. And actually, the chair is like a jungle gym, way she's, like, sort of sprawled all over that chair. It was at that moment, it was kind of like, I get you, I see who you are now. Like, is my way into this character. And then it was just, I knew how to draw her. She kind of became herself in drawing that sequence. And so sometimes it's time. I think it's often time. I mean, most of the time, when I start a book, the first, you know, like any first draft, it's just all the first sketches are just, surface, they're sometimes stereotypical, they're just like generic. And I have to really deepen it. And that usually for me takes time. It's just I have to have more time in. It's like peeling back an onion, you know, just like, what am I trying to get out here? And then when I finally find it, like the hope is that it just always, it was just sort of a discovery, it was already there, you know, but I just need to sort of investigate it further. And so I'm not the fastest illustrator. In fact, I'm not. I kind of allow myself to have that time

[30:49]Zibby Owens: so that because I feel like the book is going to benefit from that. So it's a good thing you don't sleep. I mean, it all works out. You need that time. Yeah, that's right. What advice would you have to aspiring authors or illustrators?

[31:05]Marla Frazee: Well, teach. And so I'm sort of often giving, I guess, what you might call advice. And one of the things I've done over the last many years, like maybe five, six years is a lot of my students are illustrators. They come to me as illustrators, drawing people, but some of them don't. Some of them have been writers, or they're just lawyers or, you know, whatever they might have been doing in their life. And so they kind of enter my class or workshops without a drawing background. But I've been encouraging all of the students to stay in drawing a lot as long as possible. And I thought about it a lot. I mean, we all drew when we were children. That's how we, people who maybe grew up to draw for a living, maybe liked it more and felt more like at home in the process of drawing, but we all drew. And you know, when we can access that place again, our child self sitting there kind of just being lost in the process of drawing, things happen. You know, it's real. Just things can bubble up. And I encourage my students to find that place, like, especially if they've been working as a working illustrator, you kind of lose that because there are all these shoulds about like, I should be marked this way, I should try this, I should get out of my comfort zone. But actually, we get into your comfort zone, that place, and like, you're relaxed, it's some pretty amazing things happen. And the bubbling up of those, those drawings of stories, like whatever it is that you're thinking about, or what you love to kind of doodle or process or, or or the thing you love to draw, like, that's kind of a good place to start. So I encourage that a lot. I think it's also just meditative and and good for us, you know, A place where we might just be able to kind of take a break from the world at large.

[33:16]Zibby Owens: Oh, I love that. Well, Marla, it was so nice to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. Thanks for sharing the fact that these books were sort of inspired by your divorce and love life, and who knew? Mean, I never would have thought. And all of your just contributions, I love it. And as a mom who devours picture books and chapter books and has been reading for so long, your name has been like a through line for me as my kids have gone now. My older ones are almost 14. So anyway, thank you for everything. Thank you, Zoe. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Okay. All right. Have a great day. Thank you.

[33:56]Marla Frazee: You too. Thanks for being patient with Tom. It

[34:00]Zibby Owens: was great to talk to you. Thanks so much. Okay. Bye. Thanks for listening to part of my June Book Blast. I hope you enjoy it. Come back tomorrow for more. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.