Laila Tarraf, STRONG LIKE WATER

[1:25]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Happy Monday. My book blast continues for Memoir Monday. This is part two of the memoirs I've been releasing as part of the book blast because I love memoirs. And of course other books, but I really love memoirs. Anyway, enjoy this collection of diverse voices, thoughts, feelings, topics, and everything on this Memoir Monday. And you can go back a few days and listen to part one of the memoirs I'm releasing as the book blast. Enjoy, and I hope you connect and really enjoy them like I did. Leila Taraff is the author of Strong Like Water, How I Found the Courage to Lead with Love in Business and Life. Leila is a senior human resource executive with over twenty five years of professional experience. After graduating with her MBA from the Haas School of Business at the University of California at Berkeley, she became one of the founding team members at walmart.com. She then served as chief people officer at Pete's Coffee and Tea, an iconic Bay Area premium coffee company. Currently, Leila is the chief people officer at Allbirds, focused on leading through a global pandemic and broad social unrest. She's a trusted advisor to entrepreneurs and investors and is a regular guest lecturer at Berkeley Law School. Welcome, Leila. Thanks so much for coming on Mom's No Time to Read Books to talk about Strong Like Water, How I Found the Courage to Lead with Love in Business and in Life. I'm so happy to be here, Ziti, truly. Would you mind telling listeners a little bit about what your book is about and what inspired you to write this memoir?

[3:26]Laila Tarraf: Sure, absolutely. Strong Like Water has been described as a leadership book disguised as a memoir. It really doesn't fall into one genre clearly, cleanly. It's my personal story. It covers a period of time when I lost my husband and then my father and my mother in pretty quick succession. And at the time I had a young daughter, she was three, and I was in my first year of my first real executive role as the Chief People Officer of Pete's Coffee and Tea. So it was the first time anything like that big had happened to me. And up until that point in my life, I really kind of held myself as it's fine, it's fine, I've got it. Really capable. I call it my hero persona. And it was a moment where I could no longer hold myself in that way. And honestly, I might have tried had I not had a three year old that was crying and needing comfort. And I was feeling so inadequate because I had suppressed my emotions my whole life. And finally I said, you know what, if I don't allow myself to feel now, I just knew that I would become hard and brittle and unable to guide my daughter through the kind of healthy grieving and healing that I wanted her to do. And I couldn't expect it from her if I didn't do it myself. And so the story is really of that journey and how as I went through that journey, I discovered that actually feeling my feelings didn't kill me, didn't weaken me, actually made me stronger and a better mother, a better friend, a better leader. And so what was soft actually turned out to be strong. That's the story. Would

[5:14]Zibby Owens: you mind explaining what happened with the losses?

[5:19]Laila Tarraf: Sure, sure. My husband died of an accidental overdose. It was very tragic and very sudden, partially because I think I was living this life of not refusing to look at some very big signs that were out there that there were problems. But again, my coping mechanism was deny, distract, deflect, keep it happy, stay above it. And that was obviously very traumatizing. And then my father had a stroke in his late 60s and died shortly thereafter. And then same thing with my mother. And with each successive death, and I know for a long time I didn't know how to tell this story because everybody experiences loss, right? For me, those losses ended up being the catalyst for me to recognize that I had numbed myself out to life. And maybe one wouldn't have brought me to this realization, but all three and realizing that I had to get real, be authentic, allow myself to be vulnerable, be present. And that's when I really got to experience life. The bad, but also the good. I realized I had cut off the highs in addition to the lows by keeping myself protected.

[6:35]Zibby Owens: Well, I'm so sorry that you had to live through this, but the fact that you not only did, got so many unintended almost benefits from it, not to put it like so crudely, but then you could share it with the rest of us. That's like a true gift. So thank you for that. And I feel like from the very start of your story, I was relating to you in so many ways. I mean, I had and then I was like, should I even admit this when I talk to her? But I had the same thing happen at one of my first jobs after college where I was kind of like rolling my eyes and being like, what on earth? Like, come on. Speed this meeting up. Like, why is it taking this other woman so long to, like, articulate two or three points? Like, let's move on with it. Like, I could have been doing so much in this time. And then someone had to take me aside and be like, You were kind of rolling your eyes. And I was like, I was? Like, thought that I felt But I I'm sorry. My dog is like shaking in the back. But I guess showed it and you had that same experience. Tell me about that.

[7:35]Laila Tarraf: I did. I did. It's amazing how this one moment twenty years ago sticks in my mind and really got me thinking. Was one of the early employees at walmart dot com. There were like 20 of us sitting around the table and we were starting to build the company. The CEO at the time, her name was Jean Jackson and she was a really experienced executive. She was CEO from Banana Republic. She was an executive at Disney. And it's one of these meetings where they just kind of go on and on. And I was pretty fresh out of business school and I was just dying to add value. And the meeting went on and on and I was bored and I had a lot of work to do and I thought I was doing a good job hiding my boredom and my irritation and I was not. And as the meeting came to a close, Jean looked at me and everyone was a little scared of her because she definitely let you have it if she didn't think you were doing the right thing. She just looked at me and she wagged her finger at me, like come over. I thought, oh my gosh, I'm thinking, what did I do? What did I do? I knew something was not right. And I walked into her office and she said, if I ever see you eye rolling like that again, there will be health to pay. That was so disrespectful. She kind of went off on me and I think she could tell that I was clueless. Like I didn't know what she was talking about. And finally, she sort of opened the door to have believed, she said, the point of those meetings is not to add value, but to bring others along. I'm like, what? Bring others along? What does that even mean? And I actually heard that lesson a few times. And I think this is what happens for anyone who you go through school and you want to get the A, you want to get the gold star, you want to please your parents and your teachers. And that's how we become these little overachievers. And that serves us well for a really long time. There's nothing wrong with that. But at some point, as you get into more complex roles, more senior roles where you have to lead others, you have to let go of this idea that you only create value by you actually producing something. It's really in the end, it becomes about the others that you're leading, right? And that means removing obstacles for them. That means mentoring. That means coaching, having the hard conversation. So it very much is not about you and all about them. And that journey sort of from what I say from me to we is one I think that many of us who sort of climb the management ranks go through. And at first it's a tough one, right? Because you want to do it. That's what you were taught to do. So that was the first time I got my hand slapped and it probably took another ten years for me to really understand that my value was not in the doing, but in the enabling of others. Wow.

[10:41]Zibby Owens: Those are good lessons even now.

[10:45]Laila Tarraf: It's good for parenting too, right? And how many times do we want to do it for our kids? I'm like, okay, go ahead.

[10:52]Zibby Owens: Seriously, I know. Because I think the thing that trips me up sometimes is like, I can do everything really quickly, like at work, like after school and like all of that training and whatever, like I would get to work and like my work for the day I could do in like an hour or something. And I'm like, What am I supposed to do the rest of the day? You know, like, Let's go. Like what now? And the same thing at times with the kids, I get so I'm like, Ugh, let me just do it. And it's the worst. It's the worst. And I have to fight against it anyway.

[11:23]Laila Tarraf: It's so true, isn't it? Right? I could have been done with this ten minutes ago. But once again, that's not the point. It's about enabling them. And my daughter is 16 now, so I can really see that. And I manage a lot of really young people now. And you can see for young people whose parents have done everything for them, they're ill equipped to come out into the world because they're used to someone diving in, the helicopter parent and taking care of things for you. So we don't really serve our employees or our children by doing that for them. That's what I try to remind myself every time I'm like, okay, now I won't do it myself. Yes.

[12:00]Zibby Owens: Exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, even the way you handled your transition from Walmart to Pete's and the way you talked about discovering this passion that everybody has for coffee and the way even that you interviewed, right, and the questions that you answered and that scene you have in the coffee shop where you went to the wrong place, which is like, oh, so something I would have done. But, like, you end up at the store with the CEO and trying to answer all these questions and being surprised and you land this huge job. Take me back just for a minute to like the beginning of that and realizing that now you had to do that job.

[12:36]Laila Tarraf: It's so true. I felt like such an imposter. I really was so lucky that the CEO of Walmart gave me the chance to do the HR role. I'd never done it. And then I had this interview and I actually didn't know a lot of what the answers were, but I could think through them and I had pretty good judgment. In the end I landed this job where I thought, Oh my gosh, am I going to have to do this? And I don't think I wrote this in the book, but even after the job was offered to me, I tried to turn it down for a few weeks and the CEO was like, Oh no, you don't. And he got ahold of me and he's like, Explain to me why you don't want me. I was so scared. I thought I've gotten myself in over my head. And again, so lucky that he saw something in me and supported me. And I think what I learned there was, okay, you just act like you know everything, you've got all the answers, you're super strong and capable. That's how I showed up in that meeting and I got the job. I'm like, okay, you see, that's how you do it. So again, I was getting these mixed messages whenever I acted like I had it all under control, then things would work well in my professional life, not so much in my personal life. And so for a long time, I led this sort of separate life, right? So there was like my professional persona and then my personal. And then over time I realized that, well, as we all realize that you are one person and I wanted to knit those pieces together and come together. And in order to do that, I had to start to show more of who I really was. First, I had to do that for myself because I had kind of been hiding from all the pieces that I didn't like. I was trying to be perfect and strong. And it wasn't until I finally admitted like, okay, I'm actually not all those things all the time, just like all of us, that I started to have actually deeper and better conversations,

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[16:56]Zibby Owens: And then why write the book?

[16:59]Laila Tarraf: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I started to write, like all of us who write, I think I always had this little thing in the back of my head for decades that thought I might want to write something, right? Even if it was just a tiny little voice, right? And I found that I was starting to lose details of what had happened and what I had learned, really important insights. And I thought I should just write these down so I don't forget. And I started to journal. And then as I started to share some of the stories that I was coming up with friends, more often than not, they would identify with them and say, Oh yeah, I know what you mean. I do that. Oh yeah, I can do that. And even now some of the early reactions I'm getting, I'm stunned by how many people say that they are identifying with my story. And so I got to a place where I decided to publish because I wanted to make sure that Two reasons. I wanted to make sure I had something out there that would not allow me to hide anymore. That was so good at hiding my real feelings and hiding from my feelings. And I just thought, you know what? Going to put this I'd lived in fear for so long. I thought I'm just going be brave and I'm going to put it out there. And what's interesting is now that I am bringing to light what usually is hidden, all these sort of broken pieces, our flawed pieces, things that make us sort of ashamed. What's happening and it's still early days. It's actually the thing that is ending up connecting me to others. I still have this moment where like, oh my gosh, have I really put this out there? And I have good friends who have reconnected with me. They're like, that was really brave. Like, how are you feeling? And I do feel exposed. Still get a little like, oh, are you going to judge me for the bad mistakes and you know, for what I've done in my life that I'm still like, oh gosh, how could I have done that? But the irony is it's just the opposite. Is tapping into that part in everybody else that also has those feelings. And I'm having the most meaningful, deep, intimate conversations with people I've known for decades that I've never had. And with people like you, today. And in the end, isn't that what it's all about? We just want to be seen and loved, but we can't have that unless we show ourselves. And so this is my big version of finally showing myself after hiding for forty years. Yeah. Coming out with a bang here. Yes. Exactly. Go big or go home. Exactly. Exactly.

[19:44]Zibby Owens: No. I totally agree. I think that whenever I read people's, you know, most raw emotional, you know, confessional admissions of the things that they're least proud of, it's the most I feel connected because none of us are perfect. Even the perfectionists among us, right? Deep down, we all are messing up all the time and it catches up with you in some way, shape or form. To know that it's not just is very almost empowering. Comforting is a better word. Comforting.

[20:21]Laila Tarraf: And what I also, it just reaffirms to me that while the details of my story are unique to me and personal to me, the journey I've been on and continue to be on of self discovery, that is the universal journey, right? Like understanding ourselves better as we grow and through self reflection or however we want to do it, yoga, doing the work hopefully brings down our blind spots, our constructs, our narratives. And that is how we show ourselves more. And that is how it connects us. And I love that women are telling their stories now. Men are telling stories too, but women are such natural storytellers that I feel like all of us are doing this. And that is what is bringing us together in community and in stronger connection. Kind of it's going with this Me Too movement, cultural norms breaking. Women are less, one of the wonderful things about the young people I'm working with is they're not as afraid. They'll put it out there. And I just think that's amazing. That's

[21:23]Zibby Owens: what's going to bring us together. It's so true. I mean, I don't know if it was just the introduction of women into the workforce or as people got used to it. But I just felt like, I don't know, even just a decade or two ago, there was so much rivalry all the time between women. Like I remember when I first started working, I was like, Oh gosh, I hope I I mean, I don't know if I could say this, but I was like, I hope I don't have a woman boss because women bosses are so mean. You know? Like the men, they just like asked me what I needed to do, and I did it. And if I messed up, they said, Oh, you messed that up. And I was like, Oh, okay, no problem. I'll fix it. But like the women, it was really tough. I mean, not to say I had some really wonderful women bosses as well. But, you know, there was that culture almost of like having to prove yourself by being rude to other women. And now it's all shifted, thank goodness. And probably not everywhere. Isn't that amazing?

[22:11]Laila Tarraf: I've experienced the same thing. And I think a few reasons for that. I think one is there were fewer women. So the women that were there were like, this is my seat. That's true. Because there weren't that many seats to go around. And I think the women that got to the top twenty years ago had to do it in a man's way because that was the form of power, right? And that's also been my learning, which is I can be strong and powerful, but I can also at the same time be kind and compassionate and empathetic. And it doesn't take away any of my agency. And I think leaders are realizing that now men and women. And that is, I think, what is so amazing about this cultural shift that's happening, that we're starting to admit that and understand that even with one of my bosses the other day, I have two CEOs, we were going at it. And he said to me, listen, when you say this, that makes me feel bad. And when he said that I was like, oh my God, no one would have said that twenty years ago. And I thought, you're right. I'm sorry. And it just took us to this other level. So the fact that we're having that honest of conversations at work now, I just think is awesome.

[23:27]Zibby Owens: That's amazing. So Leila, what is next for you? You have this book out. What's coming next? Like, what are you excited about? I'm excited about being at

[23:38]Laila Tarraf: Do you know Allbirds, the company I work for? Okay. We are in this crazy high growth phase and I think I have another book in me and maybe this next one is more of the how to. And I haven't quite gotten the theme down yet, but it's continue going to talk about how the answer for so many things is not usually one extreme or the other, right? I've been fascinated by the duality of life, right? My title Strong Like Water is after the Lao Tzu quote, which really talks about how water is soft, but it can be strong, it can carve rock. And I find that to be true in just about everything. You're trying to build a high performance culture, drive for results, all these like go, go, go. And at the same time, you want to create community and culture and connection and belonging. And a lot of times those feel like they're on opposite ends of the spectrum. But I really think what they are is the intersection of two circles. I'm always drawing these two intersecting circles. And I'm saying that middle part is the sweet spot and you can't make a straight line through it. It's sort of attacking back and forth. And so I think my next book will capture all the ways that we need to tack back and forth between the dualities of how we grow in a healthy and humane way, how we grow without losing our souls. There's so much focus on getting big and making a lot of money, but then we kind of lose ourselves in the process. So how can we have a little bit of both? Can we have them? I don't know. We'll see.

[25:16]Zibby Owens: That's awesome. Yeah. I feel like all birds are like all the rage, right? You know, it's a good moment. It is. We've had a good run.

[25:27]Laila Tarraf: What advice would you have for aspiring authors? Well, I feel like I'm such a new author. I think the most important thing is just write. Don't censor yourself. Don't try to get it just right, just perfect. Because right, what is Brene Brown? She calls it the shitty first draft, right? I say that SFD. And that's what it is. You just have to I think I wrote for a whole year until I found my voice and figured out what I wanted to write. And if you're judging yourself and censoring yourself and listening to the inner critic and trying to get it exactly perfect, you'll never write. And so just recognize that the process is in all the messiness and that eventually it will come out and you'll put form and shape in the narrative arc and all of that. And also to come into community with other authors, because I think writing can be very isolating, right? And when you share with other authors, if you're having a down moment, if you're in agony, if you can't figure something else out, I think it helps to know that you're part of the larger community

[26:34]Zibby Owens: and a creative community. So true. Wow. Well, I'm so glad we connected today. Thanks for your book letting me relive that part of my life for so long. You're like, Oh gosh. I know, I know. No, and the losses you've gone through and the way you've gotten through them and the way you've shared your story is really awesome. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to read the book. I'm still amazed that you can do all this. I don't know, hanging by a thread over here. But you know what? I love it. I just love it. So it's a pleasure. Reading, I mean, it's a pleasure to read. Woe is me. Well,

[27:10]Laila Tarraf: was listening to one of your other podcasts the other day. Don't remember who it was with, and I also say this in my book, the anecdote for stress is not rest, it's wholehearted living. So if you love reading books, then it actually fills you up, It's

[27:24]Zibby Owens: not a chore. Yes. The emails on the other hand. Not so much the emails. Not so much the emails. But I love these conversations, and I love reading books. And so that's all great. It's all great. It's just a lot. That's all. So.

[27:39]Laila Tarraf: Yes. Yes. Well, you're doing an amazing job and I love what you're building and it helps bring us all together. So Well, nice

[27:47]Zibby Owens: hope I get to meet you. Where are you in the world by the way? Me too.

[27:50]Laila Tarraf: I'm in California, but when this whole thing opens, which it is, I would love to come out and meet you in in New York. Your thing your retreat that you put out there was gone in, three seconds. I'm like, wait. I didn't even know this was happening.

[28:02]Zibby Owens: It there are few I opened up a new block of rooms. So there are like Oh, you did? There are a couple rooms left if you wanna come. Yeah. They're at the there's an inn nearby called the Weekepog Inn, and it's owned by the same people. It's really lovely. It has adorable rooms and everything. And I I have, like, three three or four rooms left. I missed that. I'm gonna go back and look at it. Alright. It's on zippyowens.com and go under the travel thing. Okay. I will. I will. Under More Rooms Available.

[28:27]Laila Tarraf: Until I take a chance. All right. That's awesome. Thank you, Zivie. Okay. Have a good day. Thanks. Bye Thanks

[28:33]Zibby Owens: for listening to part of my June Book Blast. I hope you enjoy it. Come back tomorrow for more. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.