Zakiya Dalila Harris, THE OTHER BLACK GIRL

[1:47]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time To, a Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions. So please send your personal essays there. If all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Today's sponsor is the Baby Trend Cover Me four in-one Convertible car seat. This car seat is so unique. It addresses the number one complaint by experienced mothers, which I believe I am, which is sun in your kid's eyes, which is something that of course drives them nuts and you're not going to want to put like what baby sunglasses on. That's never really worked for me. Along with the canopy, the Cover has a usage rating from four to 100 pounds, so you can use it for a long time, and can be used infant rear facing, toddler rear facing, forward facing, and belt positioning booster. The Cover Me also has a very convenient recline system, which includes a zero radio base and integrated recline flip foot. I don't exactly know what that means, but that's okay. The system allows the children to find a position comfortable to them and also limits the amount of space taken up by the seat when in rear facing position. Basically, it's just an amazing car seat, and I wish I had had this when my kids were little enough to fit into car seats. It makes parents' and kids' life much easier. It's just amazing, and it has a UPF 50 plus on the canopy so your kids don't get a sunburn either. So your kids will love sitting in it, they can interact with everybody in the car, and it protects you both rear and forward facing. There is a special 20% off code which is CoverMe20 if you go to babytrend.com/ossa,ossa. That's httpsdouble/babytrend.com/ossa and put in the code CoverMe20. Capital c, cover, capital m, me, the number 20. Also, I'm giving away one of these car seats. So if you or anyone you know is having a baby soon and would like a new car seat, which is something that you have to get as soon as you're pregnant, I am giving one away. To win the giveaway, just write a review and give a rating to my podcast, preferably a five star rating and a really nice review if you don't mind. Extra credit if you do the same thing for my moms don't have time to lose weight podcast and my moms don't have time to have sex podcast. If you could do five star ratings and reviews for all of those podcasts, oh my gosh, you will definitely be at the top of the list for entering this giveaway. And then we will pick at random. So enter the giveaway, use the code if you just want to get the percent off and order it right away. And again, baby trend cover me four in one convertible car seat, go for it. It's June. Happy June 1, everybody. Welcome to my June Book Blast where I'll be releasing multiple podcast episodes a day, all based around a certain theme. And today's theme is happy pub day. This is the pub day release for four books that are all coming out today June 1. Christine Mengan, Rebecca Stafford, Nikola Yoon, and Zakaya Harris. So enjoy today's June 1 book blast. Zakia Dahlia Harris is the author of the other black girl. I have to tell you right away that before I did this podcast, I did not know that there was a giant profile of Zakia in the New York Times the same day this week that I interviewed her. So I felt like a moron for not having caught that. And when I opened up the newspaper at lunchtime and saw this huge profile, I could not believe that I didn't ask her about it. But anyway, I did know afterwards Zakia's book, the other black girl is getting hordes of media attention. So definitely look out for it. Zakia is a Brooklyn based author with a passion for writing and talking about blackness books and oldies music. She received her MFA in nonfiction creative writing from the new school and her BA from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Before becoming a Tar Heel, she was born and raised in Connecticut where she cultivated a healthy appetite for cinnamon and fall foliage. She currently lives in Brooklyn. Welcome, Zakia. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss the other black girl. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you today. It's also nice. I feel like there aren't that many people whose first name start with the letter z, so we have that. You know?

[6:21]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Yes. It's one of my favorite things about my name. I don't know if that's weird, but I'm sure you can relate. I have a little Z sticker right here on my desk. Next time I see it, I'll send one to you. Oh, I would love that.

[6:33]Zibby Owens: Well, first of all, your book is on, like, every list of anticipated books and blah blah blah blah blah. Oh my gosh. How does that make you feel? Like I mean, you know, it never gets old.

[6:44]Zakiya Dalila Harris: I I I always, like, am just so blown away by just all the coverage, but then how diverse the coverage is too. Like, I I just couldn't be happier about how it's just finding as many people as possible. So I'm just really excited. So excited. Amazing.

[7:03]Zibby Owens: So for people who don't know what your book is about, do you mind giving like the two sentence description?

[7:09]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. So The Other Black Girl follows Nella Rogers, a young editorial assistant who's been the only black person working at Wagner Books for the last two years or so. So she's really excited when Hazel, another young black woman starts working in the cubicle next to hers. She's like, yes, finally, no more microaggressions on my own. Like, can talk to someone about all of that. I can talk to someone about my hair and just being a black woman in this space. But then very quickly, strange things start happening in the office. And Nella starts to wonder if Hazel is really all that she seems. So that's the that's the main storyline. And then there are also three other black women's stories that are interwoven between Nella's story. And they're all connected by one very big secret that has implications, not just for them, but for black women and black people all over the world. So that's my like, it's maybe five sentences, but- That's okay, I'll take them.

[8:10]Zibby Owens: You know, you did such a good job of, well, first of all, tackling such a big topic of like the publishing industry in general and race and like you have all these big things, but then like little ways in which you tell the story. Like the way you get the reader to smell, you know, the hair butter when somebody comes in and the feeling that you're sitting in the cubicle and, like, looking around. Like, just it's immersive. It's so well written. So you feel like you literally are this person, which was great. Like, because next thing I'm like, okay. Today, I'm in a cubicle and I'm publishing it.

[8:49]Zakiya Dalila Harris: What else could you want from a book? I know. Well, there you And

[8:55]Zibby Owens: I particularly responded to the scene where Nella is trying to figure out if it's okay to tell her thoughts about the book that is sort of up for the the subsequent book of an author's in an author's over, if you will, and how the depiction of a black woman in that did not totally sit well with her. And should she say anything? Should she not? Tell me a little bit about that scene. And I know you worked in publishing yourself. So has something like this happened to you? Tell me about this moment, which becomes fairly significant in the course of the book.

[9:28]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have to say that did not thankfully ever happen to me. Not not in that way. I mean, you know, there there are occasional things that were more subtle that I would kind of be like, okay, why aren't we talking about this? They're like, why you know, decisions decisions of why we didn't go after certain books. I, you know, would think there are other reasons behind this that no one is saying. So nothing that blatant, but I'm going back to your mention about the cubicle. I mean, I I literally started that chapter while I was sitting in my cubicle. So I was very much channeling just all of those kind of, you know, the smells, the space, how you're kind of trapped in this in this area, and you're really trying to to peel off whatever you can from the world because you're in this little space. And then also, of course, like the lack of autonomy in a lot of ways as an editorial assistant. You don't have walls. You don't have a door. You don't have privacy, and that translates also to the job itself in a lot of ways. You're supposed to give yourself to your boss, to the authors, to everybody, really kind of sacrificing your own sometimes sanity. I just remember like going to my other friends keep my coworkers cubicles and being like, oh my God, I have like 80 emails like from this one agent or like those kinds of conversations. And you really have to just smile and work through it because a lot of ways you're, you're kind of customer service sometimes, you're, you know, doing stuff behind the scenes too. So it's just all this crazy balance that I really wanted to get into. And when you really love it, and I did when I started, you're like, you love it. You're into it. You really don't mind it. And but the more if, you know, if something starts to get at you and you think like Nella, like, oh, this place actually is really kind of, you know, getting under my skin with Hazel and all of those things, it can be a lot. And so, yeah, just wanted to show just a few of those parts of the the job and just like the work life balance and how hard that can be, especially for a young person who's

[11:34]Zibby Owens: not sure if, you know, if it's worth it or not. I remember my first jobs after college. I was also, like, in a cubicle and in one job. Mhmm. It wasn't even a full on cubicle. I shared a desk with, like, somebody else who was like, oh, my dear. And, you know, every phone call, you're just like, okay. You just Yeah. Like, we better be friends because and I remember having to, like I, like, snuck into a conference room, which by the way was glass, and had to, like, get my back to the door to, like, talk to, I don't know, my therapist or something ridiculous. You know mean? And, like, sob.

[12:04]Zakiya Dalila Harris: So I remember those. I we had a room on our floor that would be the sobbing place, like, the personal calls, but it wasn't glass, which I I don't understand why meeting rooms are often made out of glass. I feel like that's kind of Right. What's that about? I don't know. Ridiculous.

[12:21]Zibby Owens: Wait. So you started writing this at your cubicle. Tell me when you knew you had a book or did you always wanna write this book? Tell me, like, when you decided to take the leap and leave your job and work on it full time. Tell me the whole story.

[12:36]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so when I went into publishing, I had just finished my MFA at The New School in creative writing, nonfiction though. I got waitlisted for fiction. And I had been sort of working on another book while working as an editorial assistant, like trying to do both, which is really hard. And then after about two years, I was promoted to being an assistant editor, which was huge. I was given a book to work on, but I immediately was unhappy about it because I was like, oh, if I'm gonna be doing this other person's book, there's no way I can still be finding, like, stealing time during the day, in the morning, in the night, like, I'm going to have to give myself to this job fully. Like, I was kind of already doing that, but I was still I still had a foot in my own writing, but it's hard to do that when you're the editor on a title, when you're taking the lead. So I had that happen and I was bummed and I was like, Oh, this is kind of a sign, you know, when you're realizing, Maybe this isn't for me. And then a little while after that, I had this moment in the bathroom where I ran into another young black woman and the interaction well, we didn't have an interaction, but seeing her stirred a lot of feelings in me because I was one of two black people working on my floor at the time and the other black person was a black man who established editor who'd been there for a while. So I knew, like, she wasn't she was either new. I knew she wasn't an author. I think she had a work badge. So I had all these feelings about seeing her and then we didn't have any moment. I thought we might have a moment. There's nothing. I went back to my desk. And I just thought about it and that's when the idea for this novel came into my head. Was like, what if there are two black women working in this super white workplace and one of them is weird, like, something's off with her. And, like, I'd always been into horror and sci fi and genre in that way, reading it and then watching it. And so I started writing that, yeah, that scene of Vella in her cubicle. And I think, you know, I'm not sure exactly when I knew I had a book, but like every day after that, was like waking up early, staying up late. Like, I got so into it in a way that nothing's ever pulled me in before. And I also saw an ending in sight way earlier than I usually do for anything. So like that to me, even just having those bare bones and having, you know, the more I wrote, the more I was like, wow, publishing is such a funny world to write about. People are so funny. And it just all came together. And then I'd say, let's see, so this was January 2019. And then in March, I put in my notice. In April, I was I was gone.

[15:23]Zibby Owens: I just Wow. And how when did you sell the book?

[15:27]Zakiya Dalila Harris: In, let's see, February 2020. Wow. So it was I've never written anything that fast and I don't know if it'll happen again. That's okay. Doesn't have to.

[15:40]Zibby Owens: Wait, whatever happened to the book you had been working on before?

[15:44]Zakiya Dalila Harris: I think my boss picked it up because it had been his book and then he No, the one you were writing. Oh, oh, oh, sorry. That's okay. That's a that makes sense as a question. Yeah. I mean, it's still in my computer. I had just haven't revisited it yet. So, I mean, it's there. I I think I don't know. I might go back to it. I mean, it it's hard because I was in such a different headspace when I started that, but I do think this book has given me the confidence to feel like, okay, I know how I can kind of pull this together. Like, with the with the other black girl, one of the biggest changes and things that I needed to realize after the first draft was point of view and storylines. And before, it was just Nella's voice. And then I ended up actually adding the other women's voices in because they weren't in as they are now. They were they were just in Mella's head. And so, you know, with this other book, I feel like I'm gonna have to also do a similar kind of, okay, voice, how's that going? Because I think that's that can be really challenging just to figure that out.

[16:47]Zibby Owens: Well, I love how you you had it seem like very tame at the beginning. Not tame. That's the wrong word. Very like not more traditional. Like, okay. This is gonna be a regular story. And then by the end, they're like creeping into closets and like looping around and stealing pages and like finding all these like dossiers. Oh my gosh. Anyway, it's like crazy. So that's great. I mean, I wouldn't go so far as horror, but no. Yeah. How did you learn to like, do you feel like you learned even in the nonfiction program how to do like some of the things you can't really be taught, can you the pacing and all of that. Like, what were sort of more technical skills that you used and what were what just like flowed out of you? If you if there's any Yeah. That I don't know. No. That's a really good question. I mean, so like I said, I I definitely

[17:40]Zakiya Dalila Harris: I had Nella imagined. I mean, Nella a lot of Nella's opinions and her perspective, a lot of them are come from my own experiences. I mean, when I did my MFA, I was writing a lot about writing personal essays about, like, my skin and my my hair and my relationship with where I grew up. I grew up in Connecticut, particularly white neighborhood and went to a very white elementary school. Like, you know, I was questioning those things a lot when I was doing my MFA. And so those parts really came out super easily for Nella and then all of the women because in a lot of ways, feel like there are bits of me in each of them. I think Kendra Ray is the furthest for me, but like I kind of aspire in some ways to have like the chutzpah that she's got because it's just like, man, I'm always just so quiet and don't sneak up, you know? But so that those parts really came easily. But yeah, the things that were harder were definitely pacing because like I said, I never quite set out. And I think that's also with the last book, like why I also had a hard time because pacing was just really difficult. And I think that really I had to get a draft down and have someone else, like my agent was a really big part of making sure things happened quickly enough because, yeah, it starts slower, it starts in this grounded world, and I really wanted the reader to, you know, get into Nella's head and feel like she was worth caring about. And so finding that balance between her life and then her life at Wagner, because I could have gone on and on about Wagner books more, and I did, I had to cut a lot of it. Balancing those parts with like the faster paced things and the more like kind of freakier things was hard. And I think really just, yeah, going back and looking at, you know, where do we find this out? What is the most interesting way for the reader to find this out and when? Because like if they find this out here, then what's going to be sustaining this part of the story? Because there's just so many threads. So a lot of like, like kind of Jenga going on.

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[22:48]Zibby Owens: Did you love writing from a young age?

[22:51]Zakiya Dalila Harris: I did. Yeah. I did. My dad is a writer. He's a journalism professor and then had a an op ed column, the New Haven Register and then the Hartford Courant up until last year. So, I mean, he was always like sitting at the table with a pen in his hand, like reading papers and just like always was like, you know, this is really fun. I've been able to make a living out of it. It's not that easy, but like, he very much from any age, was like, you can do this if you want to, which is really which is really great. I mean, both of my parents, when I quit my job, I was expecting expecting a little more like, oh my god, what have you done? But both of them were like, I mean, my mom was worried about health insurance, which is fair. Yeah. But yeah, they're just been really supportive. I loved reading and just like, I was shy kid in a lot of ways. And I think for me, like writing and reading gave me that like escapism

[23:50]Zibby Owens: and allowed me to like speak up in ways that I didn't necessarily feel like I could do myself, you know. I was the same way. I was so shy. And then I would sit down, the words would like flood out of my fingers because I was like, it was all like holding it in. Just because you're shy doesn't mean you're not thinking as much as everybody else. Like it's all in there. It's just not coming out anywhere. Exactly.

[24:12]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Exactly. And it's such a good feeling to, like, put it down. Put it down. Like, I had a I had a diary at, six or seven, like a Mickey Mouse diary. I don't really know why, but like I just but I loved it. I loved having that space.

[24:28]Zibby Owens: I have all these old diaries too, I've been debating like, should I even go back and read like Yes. And I'm like, maybe I could do a middle grade novel or if I Yes. You should. I'm my seventh grade diary. What was I even thinking then? And then I'm like, should I show my seventh grade daughter? I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't want her to know.

[24:45]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Do a dramatic reading. You know? Exactly.

[24:48]Zibby Owens: Oh, like, in the living room or something. Have you gone back to your diaries at all?

[24:52]Zakiya Dalila Harris: You know, I haven't. I have not. I have one diary that I started when I moved no, actually, before I finished undergrad that then trans like, it went all through there to like my New York life up until like two years ago. And then I actually honestly stopped writing and I need to do it again. I feel like I need that outlet because my fiance, like, I don't need to tell him all of my thoughts all the time. I need that space.

[25:21]Zibby Owens: So Gotten that advice before too. Yeah. Can't believe used I don't listen to that advice. I still, like, tell them everything. Oh, totally. It's hard. Hard. I know. I'm like, what do you mean? But then I have a secret. I know. So I feel like there's not always such a clear path from starting a job in the in the publishing world to actually becoming an author. Like, I feel like it's pretty rare to have, like, a breakout hit at this, especially at your age. And I don't even know how old you are, but I'm assuming it's pretty young and Yeah. Tell me, well, first of all, like no, for other people out there, right? Like I remember when I was just out of college thinking like, I want to be a writer, but there's no path to being a writer when you're 21 years old. Maybe you shouldn't be a writer. Should you go into publishing? It used to be magazines. It used to be there were all these options. Tell me just a little more about those decisions you made that, you know, and would you recommend it to someone else?

[26:21]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Yeah, I mean, you know, I totally would. It's not easy. It's not easy. I know when I quit, I was like, I didn't know what was going to happen. I just knew that I wasn't happy in publishing anymore. And I mean, at the same time when I quit, I was also, I mean, I picked up a bunch of freelance jobs, but I was also freelance editing and I was mostly working with Black women authors and that was really great to be able to go back to that, or not go back, but to be able to work with other women of color who, mean, I would have loved to have done that when I was working in publishing and I also didn't know if or when I would have that chance. So I think being like flexing that muscle, trying to do that while working on my own book was really helpful for me. And I mean, yeah, I wrote all of that summer. I was working for a little bit. I was working at a cupcake shop and then I was teaching children, Writeopia Lab, a nonprofit creative writing program in New York. And that was really good for me too. And I really, I mean, when I started, when I was ready to query agents, which was really scary and exciting because it was like, okay, this is where it's actually becoming real. Like I did this for a reason. I made a spreadsheet and I really just kind of, I mean, I had contacts a little bit in the publishing world, but a lot of people I hadn't spoken with, I didn't know, and kind of really started from scratch in a lot of ways. I mean, not at all the way that a person who doesn't know the publishing world starts because I did know, of course, like how to write a query letter, like I'd seen examples, I'd seen most effective, I kind of knew the language of like this means this, like, you know, all the Yeah. Yeah. All the publishing jargon. And so but in a lot of ways, I I started, you know, just finding people through Query Checker and kind of going about it that way. And my current agent, actually, I met through a recommendation of a coworker who works at Doubleday, who I mentioned, we're talking about in a book and she's like, oh, you know, there's this agent who like takes weird things sometimes. Like really cool weird things, like maybe you should try her. And I was like, okay. I mean, again, that's through a publishing connection, but still kind of an I didn't know her and just cold emailed her. So, I mean, I do feel like there is there is a way to do it that way of just like writing the book and, you know, sending it out into the world. But yeah, I mean, I also was reviewing books at the same time for The Rumpus. And I think that for me, the last few years for me has been really good to just like keep myself thinking about other people's books and what's working and how they work, like the mechanics of it. That kind of process was really useful for me. But, yeah, I mean, I I've had I also ghost did some ghost writing. I've done a lot of different stuff that I'm remembering now. I forgot that I was doing that. I guess it's the whole point of being a ghost writer though.

[29:25]Zibby Owens: I did a ghost writing project too Yeah. A long time ago. Yeah. That was pretty cool though. It's kind of satisfying. It is. It's nice. And, you know, I mean, that's the whole thing. It's like find it's like it's sort of like fiction. Right? You have to find a voice and, like, stick with it, and it's not your own. Exactly. You know, you gotta run with it and see what happens. Exactly. Exactly. Good training grant. So

[29:45]Zakiya Dalila Harris: are you working on another project now or what's what are you thinking? Yeah. I mean, I'm with the other black girl. I have been really kind of still in this headspace because it's kind of wild right now. But I am thinking about, you know, sitting down and book two because I just I had so much fun writing the first one. And like I said, I it's not gonna be that fast again, I don't think. You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. Yeah. Knock on wood. But so there's that. And then I'm I'm working on the TV adaptation, co writing the TV adaptation of The Other Black Girl. So that's been Got that takes up a of my time and it's so exciting. I am, like, watching all the TV now with, like, a like, a watchful eye, like, taking notes and

[30:33]Zibby Owens: And what can what can you tell me about that? Like, who's it What's

[30:38]Zakiya Dalila Harris: public? What's not? Yeah. Yeah. So I am co writing it with Rashida Jones, which is really exciting. She's so wonderful. And my producers are Temple Hill and Tara Duncan and, yeah, the Hulu. It's gonna be hopefully So cool. The TV show. So we're yeah. We're we just got our edits back for our first draft of the pilot, and it's just really exciting. They're awesome, awesome notes. And I mean, it we'll see. It feels like it's it's moving along. So I'm really, really excited to see all of the characters really play out in a real way, I guess, like not just in my head and, but on TV, I think it's going to be really cool to just like get that much into, that much more into Nella's head and, you know, the music and the outfits and like the looks, the facial expressions. There's just like so much that you can kind of convey in the book, but like to have this much more space to just like blow up the world of Wagner is gonna be really, really fun. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to watch that. So cool. That's

[31:46]Zibby Owens: awesome. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors? I would say

[31:53]Zakiya Dalila Harris: I mean, I have this is one of my things, but I know not everyone agrees, but I really think writing every day is super, super important. Like, whether it's like the project that you've been trying to finish or if it's just like, like journaling, like we're talking about, I think that really making sure you're taking time and carving time out for yourself, especially if you're working a nine to five or like multiple different jobs that are all different hours of the day, like trying to have one consistent time where you're writing, even if it's just ten minutes, like, because I, and not everyone's like this, but like, and I don't know if you're like this, Zoebe, but like, I would beat myself up for not, you know, two days, three days go by, four days. And like, I haven't even looked at the project and like, sometimes it's good to do that. But like, even if you're just like dipping in for like a page and then dipping out, I feel like that can just make all the difference because the characters are fresh, you know, it's still there when you do have time to really sit down and do it. That's my biggest piece of advice. And then the other thing I would say is like, just keep reading, even if it's not books, like reviews. Think, again, book reviews are just so rich and can be so good and a really interesting way to look at like all the parts of a book.

[33:14]Zibby Owens: And so I think that can be really useful too. Well, I have to say I have now done over 700 episodes nobody has Wow. Nobody has ever suggested reading book reviews before. Wow. So there you go. Oh my God. I feel so special. You should. You should. I read book reviews all the time. I'd be like, I get so excited for the Sunday New York Times whole section and the Washington Post and, you know, the Journal and the New York I don't know. I'm more like a newspaper, you know Yeah. Regular in jester, if you will. But Yeah. Yeah. I love although I'm always so afraid they're gonna tell you too much. You know? It's like how I feel about movie trailers. I'm like, I gotta pause it halfway through. But, no, but I love I I agree. I think it's really important and it's interesting to see the elements that other people find really meaningful and, you know, the sort of analytical dissection of some of the books. I know, I totally agree Totally. With I think that's great advice.

[34:10]Zakiya Dalila Harris: Yeah, especially, and I think that's the most one of the most important parts too is like, can read two different reviews for the same book and they'll both take something completely different away from it. And like, that's a lesson that's also, I think really good for any writer. Like I'm trying to remember, like, everybody takes something different. Like it's not, no book is supposed to be for everyone. And I think that's a really important thing to know and learn as a writer. Christine Mangan's

[34:37]Zibby Owens: book, The Palace of the Drowned is coming out. I don't know if it's coming out yet. I can't remember. Anyway, but it's based on a novelist who basically goes crazy after getting a terrible review. Just to summarize, that's not really what it's about. Much more, you know, rich and full of stuff than that. But that is one moment that, like, sets her off and it sort of courses through the book. So I keep thinking about that book. Amazing. Maybe you should check it out because it's actually pretty I will. I will. What are you reading now? I just have to ask. I'm curious. Yeah. I actually just started reading

[35:09]Zakiya Dalila Harris: The Prophets by Robert Jones Junior. And it came out in January. It's so good. The prose is so rich. I'm just, I don't know, falling into a book during that time period set during slavery can be a lot, you know, it's, but I just, I mean, again, I just started it, but it's so rich and I'm just really enjoying it. It's really, really good. I interviewed on my podcast, so you should go listen. Yes. Yes, I will. Oh, sweet. I've heard, I've heard and that just makes, I mean, all the difference in a lot of ways. And then I also like, going through if you saw my desk right now, you'd be like, oh my god. How are you living like this? But All Her Little Secrets by Wanda M. Morris, which comes out in, I believe, November. But it starts with this black lawyer finding her white boss slash lover dead in the office and chaos ensues. I'm really excited so about that and the prophets together is like a, you know, it's different, but I think it's actually gonna be, it's gonna be a good read. I don't know if you read two books at a time as well. Like 10 books at the same time. Okay. I don't know. It's a stupid question.

[36:22]Zibby Owens: No, no. But I like to have different books. I feel like different books are better for different times a day. You know, there's some books I only read at night. There's some books I like to read all day. Absolutely. Agree. A book, by the way, I like to read all day. You were not a nice book. I read it all throughout the day. So anyway Thank you. Anyway, well, thank you so much for chatting. This was so fun. I'm really excited to do. Congratulations on all your success and everything to come and wishing you like all the best and I'm excited for you. Thank you so much, Divi. This has been so much fun. I really appreciate you having me on and and reading. Of course. Alright. Take care. Have a great day. Take care. You too. Bye. Thanks again to today's sponsor, the Baby Trend Cover Me four in one convertible car seat. Don't forget to enter my giveaway, and the winners will be announced at the end of this week. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.