Cindy McCain, STRONGER
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Happy Memorial Day, everybody. I hope you guys have a great weekend,
[0:41]and that you're relaxing and enjoying life and getting time to regroup and listen to podcasts,
[0:47]and read, and everything that you enjoy doing. All of the podcasts I'm releasing today,
[0:51]which marks the start of my June early summer book blast. So welcome to that.
[0:57]All of them have a military-based theme in honor of all of the wonderful people who we are
[1:04]thinking of today for this Memorial Day. So all of them have a common theme, listen to all three,
[1:11]and enjoy. Cindy McCain is the author of Sturonger, a memoir. Cindy is the chairman of the board
[1:19]of the McCain Institute for International Leadership, married to Senator John McCain for nearly
[1:23]four decades. Cindy became well-known for her support of military families and for her speech
[1:28]at the 2008 Republican National Convention that nominated John as the party's presidential candidate.
[1:34]She is chairman of her family business, Hensley Beverage Company, and her extensive philanthropic
[1:38]and humanitarian work has won her many awards. Cindy and John raised four children together,
[1:44]Megan, Jack, Jimmy, and Bridget. Cindy now travels extensively to raise awareness of human
[1:48]trafficking around the world, but her home-based remains in Phoenix, Arizona.
[1:52]Welcome, Cindy. Thank you so much for coming on mom's time to have time to read books,
[1:56]to discuss your memoir, Sturonger, courage, hope, and humor in my life with John McCain.
[2:02]Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I really do.
[2:06]Well, this was such a great book. Your life has been so interesting, and I love hearing all
[2:11]about not just your relationship with such a public figure, but your life. Your life has been
[2:17]so interesting. You're parenting, your adoption, your struggles. I mean,
[2:24]I'm so glad you wrote this book. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it was very cathartic for me to
[2:28]write it, and I'm glad I did. The bulk of the writing took place during COVID, during the lockdown.
[2:34]So for me, it was a good thing. I also hadn't really had time to grieve. I went straight back to
[2:39]work after my husband died and didn't really take any time for myself and of course pandemic put
[2:45]everything to a screeching hall. So it was a good, it was a very good thing for me to do.
[2:51]Tell me about, can we jump? I know this is jumping around a little bit, but I was so interested
[2:57]in the Bangladeshian orphanage story, your adoption, and then how the campaign sort of,
[3:05]oh my gosh, used your daughter, which I mean, as a mother of four, I think that my heart was
[3:10]hurting reading this whole section. Tell me a little bit about that story and for people listening
[3:14]what that was like. Well, our daughter was a baby that I actually discovered an orphanage in
[3:20]DACA, Bangladeshian and other baby. And my daughter had a very severe cleft palate and the other
[3:26]little girl had a heart condition. And so I was able to, I realized I could bring them home,
[3:33]I could get them medical care in Arizona. And so I proceeded to do all that. The nuns were very
[3:39]helpful, you know, they helped get passports and bribe all kinds of people to make it to have
[3:44]it happen in a timely fashion. But what happened was we were getting ready to literally to leave
[3:49]for the airport. And we got a call from the health ministry that said that I needed to go down
[3:54]and appear in front of the health ministry, officials before I left the country. And I went down to
[4:01]this, you know, it's a big room kind of thing with a long table and there are all these, these men
[4:05]sitting at the table and they were all speaking in Hindi. And so I couldn't understand anything
[4:10]they were saying. And of course, being the absolute airport neurotic that I am, I can't look at my
[4:16]watch or we're going to run a leg, you know, and all this kind of stuff anyway. So finally,
[4:21]I asked, you know, what was going on, they still kept speaking Hindi. And then finally,
[4:26]a gentleman starts speaking English and he said, well, we can, we can provide the health care
[4:31]for these babies. And we can, we can do this here in Bangladesh. And I was so frustrated that
[4:38]I slammed my hand on the desk of the, from the table that I was sitting behind, I slammed my fist
[4:44]down. And I quite excuse my language, but I said, God, they didn't do it. Why haven't you done it?
[4:49]And of course, that shut everybody out. And, and they started stamping things really fast to get
[4:54]the crazy lady out of there, I guess. But it was, it was a kind of thing. They were two little girls
[4:59]who are not going to get the health care. It just simply was not going to happen for them.
[5:03]And the nuns knew that. And Mother Teresa's orphanage. And so they facilitated in every way
[5:09]being able to get these two girls out. And it was really on the flight home that I realized that
[5:14]our daughter, Bridget, that she was going home with me, she had picked me as her mommy. And so I
[5:21]literally walked off the airplane in Phoenix, Arizona with a child, a new daughter and introduced
[5:27]my husband who didn't even know I was doing that. And it, talk about a test of the marriage,
[5:33]he was, he was so lovely about it, knew exactly what was going to happen. He, you know, he was,
[5:38]he just was such a, such a great person that day. He really showed a side of himself that I hadn't
[5:44]seen. And, and we've been happy ever since she, she will turn 30 and July.
[5:49]Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Now I feel terrible. My husband came home with fish,
[5:54]and I was like, you didn't even talk about this. Like, what do you do? Well, I am not as good as
[5:59]now. Clearly. Well, it was, you know, it was something too that my husband, you know, he knew me
[6:06]well enough to know that I was an intern my back on a baby. And so it was just, it was just,
[6:11]it was fate. And you know, God had a hand in it. I'm quite certain. And she's been with us forever.
[6:18]And, and now you know, you brought up the, the discussion about her being pulled into the
[6:23]campaign. And that was a tragic time, actually, because she was, she was too young to know what
[6:28]was going on. And this is the 2000 presidential race. And our opponents used her in a, in a series
[6:36]of pliers and ads that said, did you know that John McCain has a black daughter? This took place in
[6:41]South Carolina. And did you know he has a black daughter? And of course the intubation there was
[6:47]that somehow this was wrong. And, or, you know, in the fact that she was black was even
[6:52]worse kind of thing. And so it, you know, it was a terrible part of the campaign. But it
[6:57]wasn't until about four or five years later that she Googled herself. And she discovered all this.
[7:04]And she came into my bedroom after she did it. And, and, you know, crying. And she said,
[7:10]mommy, mommy, why does President Bush hate me? Why doesn't he like me? And I, you know, I did
[7:16]my very best to try to explain to her, you know, it's, it's politics, etc. But she's, she's
[7:22]never gotten over it. She's never, she thought it was because she was black. She thought it was
[7:26]beat, you know, I mean, it's all those things have rolled into this. And she's, she struggled with
[7:32]this for quite a while. It was, you know, words have consequences. And I like to remind anybody
[7:38]this campaign or anybody anywhere really that you families are off limits. You can't do this.
[7:43]And unfortunately, we learned a hard lesson that day.
[7:47]Well, I feel like your book is full of lessons at the end of every chapter. You just sort of
[7:52]sprinkle in like they're not involved. And they're not like, you know, there's no poll quotes or
[7:57]anything. But I'll keep reading. I'll be like, oh, okay. This is like, you know, having my mom,
[8:03]like, sit me down and say like, this is what's important in my opinion. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for
[8:08]that. Oh, I'm glad. Well, that was kind of the purpose to me writing this is that, you know,
[8:14]I have had a lot of experiences. I've made a lot of mistakes, which is really what I wanted to,
[8:21]to I, and I have learned from them. And so that's really really what I wanted to share and all this
[8:26]and that, and that in the most tragic of times, you know, you can, you can do it. You can make it
[8:31]through it. It just, it, it sometimes hurts an awful lot though. And for end in my own case,
[8:36]it was definitely the case. But I'm a better parent for every experience I had that was bad.
[8:41]It made me a better parent. And so that's really the gift and all of this was that.
[8:47]I hadn't known about your opioid addiction. And I thought it was so wonderful how you wrote about that.
[8:52]And we're so open. So many people are struggling. I know. Yeah. Now, in particular,
[8:57]and I'm sure having you as a role model for how to, you know, and even the fact that you
[9:02]hit it and you didn't want your husband to know and it was your parents who helped you through.
[9:07]Oh, my gosh. Anyway, it's very, I mean, I hate to say it's so cliche. It's so brave of you
[9:11]to put this in. But it's really, you know, it's, it was great to go on the journey with you while
[9:16]you got through it. Well, it's, it's a kind of thing. Obviously, I would never want to,
[9:21]want to relive that. And I'm still to this day. So embarrass the whole thing happened.
[9:26]But I understand also, and this is what I try to tell a lot of people, you know, that I talk to
[9:31]especially in the media is, is that the worst thing you can do to an addict is to shame them
[9:37]because it's, they're trying to get out. We're trying to get help, you know, we're trying,
[9:42]you know, all these, you know, these things and, and to be whacked down by the media, which is
[9:46]what they did to me very harshly too. We could, you know, in my case, I had a great support system.
[9:53]But, but not everyone has a great support system. And that could actually kill somebody by just
[10:00]shaming them in such a way that you can't feel
[10:02]like you can't face the world.
[10:04]And so it's, I blame none of this on anybody.
[10:07]This was totally my fault, am I doing?
[10:09]But I have reminded everyone, don't do this.
[10:12]Don't pick on anyone that's got it,
[10:14]because it's a disease.
[10:15]It's not a choice, it's a disease.
[10:18]And so I hope, I hope through the years
[10:20]I've made an impact on some of these kinds.
[10:22]I don't know if they listen to me or not.
[10:25]I hope so.
[10:26]I hope so too.
[10:30]And being a military wife, mother,
[10:34]being so sort of enmeshed in this culture of valor
[10:38]and courage and everything,
[10:41]you wrote so interestingly, and I don't wanna like
[10:43]necessarily get into all the politics of it.
[10:45]But just how it felt to be not respected
[10:48]in the past administration for the most fundamental,
[10:53]like virtue, wisdom, virtue was thick,
[10:56]is that even the right way?
[10:57]I think you can do for your poetry.
[10:59]Tell me a little more about that.
[11:01]Well, in our family services is the key.
[11:04]It's a core element.
[11:05]And those are the things we taught our kids.
[11:08]And as you said, we have two sons that have both
[11:11]or one is still serving and one has said's gotten out.
[11:15]But to me, and what we always taught them is that
[11:19]that's the, that's a curious form of a gift
[11:22]to serve your country.
[11:24]And to be somehow troops, not just mine,
[11:28]but troops being shamed and called names
[11:32]because they were serving was, it was beyond pale,
[11:36]in my opinion.
[11:37]It was something that losers and suckers,
[11:39]no, not at all, not at all.
[11:42]And anyone who, who, well, it was said about our troops.
[11:46]And I took great offense at that.
[11:48]And not so much for my own sons,
[11:51]although that was part of it.
[11:52]But for every other family member out there
[11:55]who has sat by and worried and wondered
[11:58]whether or not your child was gonna make it out alive.
[12:01]And many didn't.
[12:02]They're not losers and suckers at all.
[12:04]They're, they're, they're, they're heroes.
[12:06]And I would take offense from anybody that said that.
[12:09]But when it comes from the commander in chief,
[12:11]it's really terrible.
[12:13]It was really, really awful.
[12:14]Well, I thought it was so classy the way you wrote about it
[12:18]and how you explained that you weren't willing
[12:21]to talk about it at that point.
[12:22]But here's how you felt.
[12:24]And I think it was really, it was, it was very well done.
[12:26]Thank you.
[12:27]Thank you.
[12:28]Thank you for sure.
[12:30]And even the way you related to just a little more
[12:33]in the military, your mother-in-law, right?
[12:35]And you said how like Robert, Robert,
[12:38]Robert, right, Robert, right, Robert.
[12:40]How you didn't even know how she could have gone five years
[12:43]waiting for her son to get back.
[12:45]Like what kind of, how do you get through that as a mother?
[12:48]You know, she would, she talked about it a little bit.
[12:50]She wasn't very open about it because obviously it was
[12:53]a tragic time for them.
[12:54]But she, you know, she just simply, you know,
[12:57]knowing her the way I did and knowing the family,
[13:00]the way I do.
[13:01]They're inner core strength is something to behold.
[13:05]And I believe that John gained a lot of that,
[13:08]that courage and that element of strength from his mother.
[13:12]Because she was, she was really something else.
[13:14]She was a tower of strength.
[13:15]And she was also one of the most beautiful women
[13:18]I'd ever seen and was, and just represented,
[13:23]not just the family, but the country in such a way.
[13:25]She was, you know, from years gone by,
[13:28]obviously, because her husband was in many, many years ago.
[13:31]But her, just the way that she served as well by his side
[13:35]and helped him through.
[13:37]So, you know, I learned so much from her.
[13:40]And I was so intimidated when I first met her
[13:43]because I thought, oh my God.
[13:45]What have I done?
[13:46]I don't know what I'm doing.
[13:49]And she couldn't have been more gracious to me
[13:52]in kind of maneuvering the dicey walkway
[13:57]of Washington, DC and, and, and the military as well.
[14:01]I mean, she was, when I approached her some weeks
[14:05]after I'd had the, the incident that occurred
[14:07]in the, in the book that I talked about being, you know,
[14:11]so you're seated by your husband's rank.
[14:12]Kind of, it was ridiculous.
[14:14]And I said, I feel really bad.
[14:16]No one's, you know, I understand.
[14:18]They don't want to have anything to do with me, you know.
[14:20]And I said, what should I do?
[14:22]And she goes, honey, that's their problem.
[14:24]You just get up and do what you're gonna do.
[14:25]And she was a, it was like so matter of fact.
[14:29]And it was, she was perfect.
[14:31]I mean, she was such a great inspiration to me.
[14:33]I love her so much.
[14:35]Oh, that's wonderful.
[14:37]And the, the way that the other women treated you,
[14:41]I mean, this is like a bat.
[14:43]It's like watching one of those mean girls,
[14:46]my daughter's team movies.
[14:47]You know, I mean, like, it's really, you know,
[14:50]I couldn't believe it.
[14:51]Those seen with Nancy Ray,
[14:52]and the luncheon and like all these little moments
[14:56]that you talked about.
[14:57]I'm so sorry that you were not like,
[14:59]the red carpet was not rolled out, you know.
[15:02]And I wouldn't have expected that.
[15:03]But I can't what it was, what it did to me was
[15:06]it was a great learning tool, especially the Nancy Reagan
[15:09]incident at the while.
[15:11]For me, it was, you know, you always remember to be kind.
[15:14]There's no, there's no reason to be unkind to anybody.
[15:19]You just, you shouldn't, shouldn't do that.
[15:21]And that just reminded me how important it was to,
[15:24]to be nice and be thoughtful to people.
[15:27]And, and especially for me, especially the younger ones,
[15:30]I kind of like, I enjoyed taking our younger wives
[15:34]and, and now husbands, but wives under my wing
[15:37]from Arizona and kind of, you know,
[15:39]making sure that everyone was, was happy
[15:41]and they were doing okay in Washington
[15:43]and those kinds of things.
[15:45]Cause I didn't have that and I really wish I had.
[15:48]Wow.
[15:49]So what is it like at this stage
[15:52]when you've led such a public life, right?
[15:54]And you've had this memoir coming out,
[15:56]do you ever just get tired?
[15:58]Like do you wanna just like run to the gym
[16:00]or something and not have people recognize you?
[16:02]Like what is it like now?
[16:05]You know, it's, I'm used to it now.
[16:08]I, I'm very used to it and I more recognize now
[16:11]than I have been in some years past.
[16:14]What I like to remind myself is what John used to say to me,
[16:17]look, there's no heavy lifting in this job
[16:19]and one day no one's gonna know your name.
[16:22]And he's right, you know?
[16:23]So this is something to, to, I have a voice
[16:26]at this moment in time.
[16:27]I have a voice that I can use for good
[16:29]and I am using it and I tend to keep using it
[16:32]as long as I can.
[16:33]And I'm just, you know, enjoy every,
[16:37]because I've had a front row seat to history.
[16:39]I've absolutely never when my wildest dreams thought
[16:41]I would have been in the position that I was
[16:44]to be able to see and learn so much.
[16:47]And so for me it was, it was a great opportunity
[16:51]and it was also something that, you know,
[16:54]obviously it shaped my life completely.
[16:56]And I'm happy for it.
[16:59]I'm happy for all the experiences I had,
[17:00]even the bad ones.
[17:02]I'm happy for them.
[17:03]And tell me a little about the things you're most passionate
[17:06]now in terms of your philanthropy and helping others.
[17:09]I've been working on the issue of human trafficking
[17:11]for years now and this is still a big,
[17:14]a big portion of what I do.
[17:16]I'm the chairman of the Board of the McCain Institute
[17:18]right now and we do, we are involved in this
[17:22]like international leadership and then of course
[17:24]human rights, human dignity, human trafficking being a part
[17:27]of it.
[17:28]And, you know, obviously the first few years
[17:31]were set in the wave of making sure
[17:34]that people understood what human trafficking was
[17:37]and the ability to just recognize it now
[17:40]we're in the stage, we're actually back to this
[17:42]and we're on the ground and helping to not just stop it
[17:45]but help people get the kind of justice
[17:48]that they deserve these women and children especially.
[17:51]So it's been a journey with this and I love doing it
[17:56]and it's needed, I mean it's not stopping.
[17:59]So as much as I'd like to think we'd have
[18:01]that kind of effect we haven't yet.
[18:03]And so it's the area of the work that I do
[18:08]the most important to me.
[18:09]That's wonderful.
[18:11]So give me some like parenting advice
[18:14]if you obviously have great notes.
[18:16]I know I just have to admit this because so, you know,
[18:18]I have a lot of kids, you've obviously grown
[18:20]grown kids, you would have a strong sense of duty
[18:23]and all of this, like what did you do right?
[18:26]And you talked a lot about how you had all these times
[18:29]to yourself and John was in DC and you were in Arizona
[18:31]and you kind of had the week to yourself.
[18:34]What do you think you did that worked really well?
[18:37]Well, what I tell young mothers especially
[18:40]is that the most important thing is consistency.
[18:42]Good or bad consistency is the most, in my opinion
[18:47]is the biggest marker in raising children.
[18:51]You know, there's gonna be, you're gonna make mistakes.
[18:53]We all do.
[18:54]You know, and you wonder, you know, there was a time
[18:57]in my life when I had three teenagers at once
[18:59]and a fourth one really fast behind.
[19:01]And really thought I was gonna lose my mind.
[19:03]That was the time that I actually, I'm not kidding.
[19:06]I did this.
[19:07]You know, my family has a fear company
[19:09]that has a lot of trucks and we have GPS locators on them.
[19:13]And I put locators on all my kids' cars
[19:16]because there were so many of them I needed to know
[19:19]where they were, what was going on.
[19:21]Now that I didn't trust them,
[19:22]but I was terrified of kidnapping.
[19:24]And so I didn't tell them till much later.
[19:28]Your years later, could I done that?
[19:30]So you're telling them right now.
[19:32]Yes, markers on their car.
[19:34]Cars, but it was a way, you know,
[19:36]then I could watch them on a screen,
[19:37]I could see where the cars were and stuff.
[19:39]So it was consistency and I think a good friend of mine
[19:43]taught me about not sweating the little things.
[19:46]I used to be a real nut for making sure the house was perfect.
[19:50]My house had to be perfect.
[19:52]And you know, with kids, it just isn't the way.
[19:54]And she said, you know, you just relax about your house.
[19:57]That'll get done.
[19:58]The most important thing are these.
[20:00]little minds that you have in front of you that you need to, you know, need to keep encouraging
[20:04]and keep enlightening.
[20:07]And it was the best advice I was ever given, but for anybody is not to squirt the little
[20:11]things.
[20:12]And does that apply?
[20:13]Does that apply to the marriage as well?
[20:15]Yeah.
[20:16]But some of the keys to a long, long-lasting marriage are just like dipping into all your
[20:20]sources here.
[20:21]You know, I think, in our case, we started out, you know, we, we never lived together
[20:26]or that just, we just didn't do those things in those days.
[20:30]And so, so I, I'm married a man that I knew, of course, but I didn't know him that well.
[20:35]And so there's a big adjustment period and all of that, as you can imagine.
[20:40]And for me, the most important part of our relationship side from the fact we were deeply
[20:44]in love with each other was the fact that we were, that we were great partners.
[20:49]And your partners in everything we did and there, at no time to John ever not have, if
[20:55]I needed to talk to him or get the kids, you know, somebody did something that needed
[20:59]their father's attention.
[21:00]He was always there and he was home every weekend.
[21:03]We treated his work in Washington like a deployment.
[21:07]That's how we talked about it.
[21:08]It was a deployment in that he would be home and any serving his country.
[21:12]And he was the easiest way for me to make them understand what he was doing was important,
[21:17]but they loved them too.
[21:19]So it, you know, it's a balance, like anything, you balance.
[21:22]I think the hardest thing, you know, John came from one morning.
[21:25]One weekend and it was during the Clinton Lewinsky thing, you know, and the news was
[21:31]full of all this stuff.
[21:32]And I was, I literally was in the kitchen cooking and I realized there's this discussion
[21:37]going on on a television set and my kids are sitting in the kitchen about the oral sex
[21:44]and all these things.
[21:45]We, you know, that in those days you didn't say those words, but now you do.
[21:49]And I thought, oh my God, my kids are going, how do I explain this?
[21:53]I got to turn the D got if you couldn't watch television, you couldn't do anything.
[21:57]And so John comes home and they were not very old and, and when the sassy one says to
[22:05]my at the dinner table to my husband, what's oral sex and John, without missing a beat
[22:10]looks over at him and says, it's when you talk about sex, like that, you know, the real stuff
[22:18]to it.
[22:19]You know, like everyone, our family was no different than anybody else's.
[22:23]We had our, our raucous moments and we had our, our tragic moments and we had our,
[22:28]our fun, fun times too.
[22:31]I love our dinner table conversations.
[22:32]We encouraged political debate.
[22:35]You had to be, you know, you had to be civil at our table, but we encouraged all the gamuts
[22:39]and indeed it was fun.
[22:41]A lot of fun, well, well, now that you've gone through the book writing process, how
[22:49]did you find that experience and what advice would you give to someone who's thinking
[22:53]about writing a book?
[22:54]It was actually very, for me, it was, it was really fun.
[22:57]It was fun to put things together.
[22:58]I mean, there's some elements obviously that are, that are work on a beat.
[23:02]The audio portion of it was particularly challenging for me to, to do the audio book, but
[23:08]it's fun.
[23:09]It's a, it's a really fun experience and I would do it again.
[23:12]I don't know what I would write about, but I, but at this moment, but I, there's some
[23:18]interest in me doing a travel book on some, some of the experiences that I've seen in
[23:22]the weird places I've done.
[23:24]So, and I've been to some really weird places.
[23:26]So maybe that may be in the works.
[23:28]Excellent.
[23:29]Well, I do have something called moms don't have time to travel.
[23:31]So if you ever want to write an essay, it's a good, you know, I have a place for it.
[23:36]It's interesting you say that because I had no problem, you know, when spring break would
[23:40]come and the longer holidays would come, I had no problem pulling my kids out like a day
[23:46]early to travel because John and I both felt that travel was one of the best educators.
[23:51]And we were always going someplace, you know, overseas, be it local, whatever it was.
[23:56]And there was always a portion of that that was very educational.
[23:59]So I had more, I think I had as much fun as the kids did planning it and doing it.
[24:03]So, but I encourage people to travel with their kids.
[24:06]It's fun.
[24:07]Yes.
[24:08]My mom always used to say, you know, Zibi, if you travel with the kids, it's a trip.
[24:12]It's not a vacation.
[24:13]Yeah.
[24:14]Yeah.
[24:16]So I'm sure organized it just have to be organized.
[24:18]Yeah.
[24:19]She lives in Phoenix too.
[24:21]Oh, wonderful.
[24:22]Oh, wonderful.
[24:23]Good.
[24:24]Yeah.
[24:25]Anyway.
[24:26]Well, Cindy, thank you so much.
[24:27]Thank you for chatting.
[24:28]Thanks for sharing your story.
[24:29]Thank you.
[24:30]This was so much fun.
[24:31]Yeah.
[24:32]I can't wait to read about your travel journey.
[24:33]I appreciate you having me on and good love with your four children.
[24:37]The hardest job I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but the hardest job
[24:41]you'll ever do is be a mother and the best job you'll ever do is be a mother.
[24:45]So it's just, you know, and now I sound like my mother.
[24:48]It's gone in a blank.
[24:51]So I know.
[24:52]It really is.
[24:53]I'm trying to hold on.
[24:54]Yeah.
[24:55]I know.
[24:56]Thank you so much.
[24:57]And hold on to my sanity.
[24:58]Okay.
[24:59]Thank you so much.
[25:00]Thank you.
[25:01]Take care.
[25:02]Okay.
[25:03]Bye-bye.
[25:04]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:08]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to
[25:12]Read Books.
[25:13]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[25:17]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[25:24]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.