Michelle Williams, CHECKING IN

[2:00]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions. So please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, My website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Today's episode has been sponsored by Audible. You probably already know what Audible is, but just in case you don't, and you should, Audible is the leading provider of spoken word entertainment all in one place. At Audible, you can find the largest selection of audiobooks ranging from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, languages, business, motivation, and more like original entertainment from top celebrity creators and thousands of popular and binge worthy podcasts. As an Audible member, you get one credit every month, good for any title in their entire premium selection, which means the latest bestseller, the buzziest new release, the hottest celebrity memoir, or that bucket list title you've been meaning to pick up. Those titles are yours to keep forever in your Audible library. And you'll also get full access to their popular Plus catalog, which is filled with thousands and thousands of audiobooks, original entertainment, guided fitness and meditation, sleep tracks for better rests and podcasts, including ad free versions of your favorite shows and exclusive series. All are included with your membership so you can download and stream all you want. No credits needed. You can always find the perfect title for whatever you're doing, wherever you're going, or whatever you're feeling, whether it's comedy, romance, suspense, true crime, science fiction, or fitness and wellness. With everything you love to listen to all in one app, Audible is the playlist for life. New members can always try Audible for thirty days for free. Visit audible.com/zibby or text zibby to 505 Again, visit audible.com/zibby or text zibby to 505 Michelle Williams is the author of How Getting Real About Depression Saved My Life and Can Save Yours. Michelle is a Grammy award winning recording artist and actress who rose to stardom as a member of the R and B mega group Destiny's Child, aka with Beyonce. Her successful solo albums include Heart to Yours, Do You Know, Unexpected, which spawned the internationally charted single We Break the Dawn, and Journey to Freedom, which featured groupmates Beyonce and Kelly Rowland on the single Say Yes. Also a talented actress, she debuted on Broadway in Aida and starred in productions of The Color Purple, Chicago, What My Husband Doesn't Know, and Faila. Michelle is passionate about raising awareness around mental health and sharing the lessons she has learned in her own struggle with depression. Hey, thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[5:03]Michelle Williams: Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I think that the name of this podcast is absolutely amazing.

[5:13]Zibby Owens: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yes. Thank you. Yes. And speaking of names, by the way, I know in the book, you reveal that your name is not even actually Michelle. It's Tanitra and how you had to sort of give that up because people thought that was a better stage name, and it became this whole question of identity. And now your family calls you Tanutra, but fans call you Michelle. So I was like, what am I supposed to call you?

[5:38]Michelle Williams: I know. I know. You know what? Michelle, this is part of my name. It is my middle name. It is my middle name. So friends and family call me Tee. So if I'm ever out and about and I hear somebody call me Tee or Tinitra, it's because they really, really know me. But I'm sure after work gets out, I'm sure more people will probably be calling me Tinitra. So you guys can call me Tinitra or Michelle. I'll answer to both. Well, hopefully after our conversation,

[6:08]Zibby Owens: we'll feel like we know each other so well that I can call you T.

[6:12]Michelle Williams: Yes. Come on. I love it. You know, it's comforting because T or Tinitra, that's the the little girl that needed to be healed. So every time I hear T or Tinitra, I feel more healing. I feel, I don't know. I I feel like maybe I'm going back to Tanitra, that courageous, brave little girl. Okay.

[6:37]Zibby Owens: Checking in your book. First of all, it made me wanna, like, check into the next hotel that I could ever find with all of your references to, the sheets and the room service and everything because I am with you. That's, like, the first thing I do. I'm like, where's that little packet in the hotel? I'm opening it up. What are we having? I don't want the goat cheese salad. I was like, yes.

[6:58]Michelle Williams: Yes. I don't feel alone. I'm like, they need to have chocolate chip cookies and popcorn, and then I will feel much happier. See? And you know what? And I and not only do I judge the menu, but I also judge because I'm like, let me see the little kids. Mhmm. And if there are chicken tenders on that menu, I'm like, okay, I'll be okay. Because chicken tenders solve everything. If there's something if there's 90 other things on the menu you don't like, chicken tenders is always safe. It's still protein. It's it's it's okay.

[7:32]Zibby Owens: I love that. I know sometimes I'm like, should I tell them that my kids are not actually with me at this hotel today? Are they gonna, like, cart me at the door and make sure I'm, like, six? I have no shame ordering from that children's menu. No shame. But, of course, in addition to talking about hotels, for you checking in is so important, and it's sort of like the major theme of this book that for so long, you kind of checked out and that it's so important to check-in, to check-in with God, to check-in with yourself, to check-in with others, your community, and how that re centering is so essential, especially like with you when you were caught up in depression mixed with fame, which is sort of a toxic combination, how you realized that these are the things that you needed to do the most. So tell me about how you decided to take those realizations and make them into a book. Well,

[8:22]Michelle Williams: '18, in when the hospitalization was made public, right, and I made it public because think TMZ or someone had reached out to my team and they confirmation that I was in the hospital. And I was like, Well, I know they're going to post it anyway, but let me tell let me say something first, because I didn't want it to be splattered, and then you got to come and try to make a statement afterwards. So it was like, you know what, guys? This is what's going on. I'm taking my own advice. I tell people to get help. Well, now I'm having to take my own advice. I've been an advocate as it relates to mental health. So it's like, well, it's my turn to get some help. And so I kind of knew that, all right, I can't just leave it at that statement. So work had to be done, healing had to be done, a lot of intensive therapy, and I said, you know what, let me let people in on this journey. Let me take the power back in those two words, checking in, because initially when I had to make that announcement, there was so much shame, guilt. I felt like a hypocrite, then feeling humiliated

[9:41]Zibby Owens: because here I am having to tell my business before I'm ready to tell it. That must be really hard. Yeah. You had a great quote in the beginning that I just wanted to read quickly. You said, we're busy, we're tired, and when we get a minute alone, we wanna check out, not in, but this step matters because we can't be honest with anybody until we've been honest with ourselves. So true. So easy to run away from everything, but like, it always catches Yeah. It's so easy.

[10:09]Michelle Williams: It's so easy. Now the good thing is you are aware. The first step is the awareness that I'm so tired. I just wanna go check out. That's what we wanna do. And checking out can be, I wanna check out from everything going on at home. Let me but as long as you're checking into a spa or checking into a counseling office or something like that, but don't just check out and not check-in somewhere else and fill yourself back up so that, you know, listen, life happens. Motherhood, being a wife, husband, being a student, working, all these things. And some, you got some are all of those things. Yeah? And so it's easy to get overwhelmed and I would I would not dismiss those feelings of feeling overwhelmed. Right. But just the other day I was feeling overwhelmed and so much pressure. And I just had to say, okay, do like a runner would do in a race and pace yourself. And then try to nurture yourself along the way. What was stressing you out the other day? This book. Because releasing a book reminds me of releasing music. Zippy is kind of like, will people like it? Will people support it? Because this is my first time releasing a book versus another product, which is music. There are actual book snobs and bookworms and people are gonna be like, why should I get this book?

[11:40]Zibby Owens: So I'm having all those things Well, you know what? Over Those are not your people then And that's okay. And that's okay.

[11:47]Michelle Williams: But if I'm being honest, as I'm checking it with myself, I'm like, woah, I do want a whole new crowd. Want people to see me more than just a singer or more than just that girl from Destiny's Child. I do wanna, it's probably the little girl in me that wants to be embraced by a whole new world as well. Well, you can start with me

[12:12]Zibby Owens: because I'm not like You're the best. I mean, like everyone, I listen to some music, but I'm not like a hardcore music person, but I am a hardcore book person. And there was so much in this book that I related to myself and that was so, I love your voice and your honesty and the experience you had and the willingness you had to just go there. So I loved it. Yeah. And this will stay with me more than any song. This is something that lasts, and it's something that people need to hear. Let me read another passage. Because you also have because you were so lucky to be in Destiny's Child and have all this, like, acclaim and fame and all of this, you had this extra sort of I'm envisioning something like sort of on your backs or like, know, like, burden to carry, which is like, how can you be depressed? Right? Look at like, how can you be depressed when you're so lucky? But that's not how depression works. Anyone can be depressed. So you said, you might be thinking, excuse me, what does Michelle Williams got to be depressed about? You got a little bit of money. You got a little bit of fame. You sang in one of the most successful groups of all time. But one message that doesn't get shared enough is that depression can hit anybody. It hits male, female, upper class, middle class, lower class, no class, every race, and every spiritual background. It can seek you out and find you anywhere with or without justifiable cause. What I mean by that is that depression comes in all forms. Sometimes it's chemical. Sometimes it's genetic. Sometimes it's situational. Sometimes it's because of unmet spiritual needs. Sometimes it's because your husband left or you can't get pregnant or you got fired. Depression is an assassin. It acts like a silent, slow killer. And if you don't deal with it, it can just swallow you up. Oh, not only is depression an assassin, it's a thief.

[13:54]Michelle Williams: It's a thief of joy. It's a thief of time. It's a thief of productivity, you know? And I had that realization after, so I couldn't put it in the book. I was like, man, depression is a thief. And we know the enemy wants to steal, kill, and destroy. And to me, depression is an enemy because it robs, it steals,

[14:23]Zibby Owens: it kills. And you tried to express that you were going through this and were basically not ignored, but, you know, dismissed, like your feelings. Were like, you're okay, or like, you're burnt out from touring or this or that. And so it made it so hard for you even when you were reaching out for help to get the help that you needed at first. Yeah.

[14:46]Michelle Williams: You know, I think that was my first time saying it out of my mouth. Hey, I feel like this is feeling like depression. I'm I'm you know? And so I still went probably close to ten years even after that person was kind of like, no. And you know what? And my heart I'm not mad at that person because when I look back, I feel like they were just wanting me to see the bright side of things. Girl, you y'all are good. You got so many great things going on, and people don't realize that yes, you can have great things going on, but there's something still kind of, you know, I'm still grateful, I'm still thankful, but man, I still feel burned out, I'm low or overwhelmed. I'm just feeling fatigued and that's depression. But I was going through that since the seventh grade. So let's go from the seventh grade up to that point. Let's say there's been about say I'm 13 in the seventh grade. Then when I disclose the thing about depression, say that was eight years later, say I'm 21 at that point. Yeah. Then I go from 21 to in my thirties without a proper diagnosis. So I've gone from the seventh grade to my thirties trying to cope and manage this. How many more people are like me who been feeling like you've been depressed for a very, very, very long time, and now you're trying to unlearn some coping skills. You love people, but you'd rather be at home. You'd rather isolate. And to this day, Zibby, when there was the lockdown that happened in 2020, oh, it was heaven for me because I like being alone. I like to isolate. So I don't know if I've taken the negative and turned it into something positive because now when I isolate, I feel recharged when I come out. I feel so good. Like, okay, let's tackle the world. That's awesome. And I don't wanna tackle the world with a lot of people all day. That's also the difference between, you know, being an introvert and an extrovert. Like introverts

[16:52]Zibby Owens: get their energy, you store it up when you're alone and then you like bring it out versus extroverts get the energy from the crowds, you know. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[19:58]Michelle Williams: Like, Ziggy, I think the the older I get, I'm like, am I turning into an inch? That's okay. Oh, I'm not mad. I'm like, I loved it.

[20:10]Zibby Owens: I'm having a hard time, to be honest with you, like, getting back out. Like, I'm like, I'm still spending so much time. You know, I can justify it with like, I'm working or I have the emails or I have to do this. But like, I don't know. I'm not like getting out in the world the way I should be after this pandemic. I don't know. I think it's hard transitioning back to what it was. Right. Yes.

[20:30]Michelle Williams: Yes. Yes. I had to go meet with someone for breakfast earlier and traffic was just really bad. And I was like, where's the pandemic traffic where no one was out? You know, where you could just zip in and zip out. But I don't know, a part of me was happy to see people out and about, but then a part of me, I'm like you, I couldn't wait to get back here. I couldn't wait to talk to you, like, because I'll be home. Wow. By the way, I don't know if that's an office or a living room space, but it's so looks so cozy. This is my office. It looks bigger on Zoom. Like, the couch is like I would curl up in right there in that corner

[21:12]Zibby Owens: of that section where those pillows are meeting. Oh, if you're ever in New York, you I just come on used to have my house. Thank was open to I had author events all the time and salons. I love having my home sort of filled with people and

[21:24]Michelle Williams: Yeah. Okay. Well, please, please let me know when you do it again. I'd love Awesome.

[21:31]Zibby Owens: So you talked in the book about the experience of thinking through your funeral, planning the whole thing out. PS, I have also done that. Not only I have, like, specific instructions. I have letters for all my loved ones. I'm, like, totally prepared. So I I know I understand. However, you know, you then went a step further and started really thinking about ending your life and, like, what that would look And you described it beautifully in the book of like how it feels when you're in a room and it's completely dark. And even though you know you're in a room, know, all of a sudden you feel like uneasy about stepping forward and touching everything. Tell me about sort of your darkest moments

[22:09]Michelle Williams: there and how you got yourself out of it. Oh, and even though I was having those moments, the suicidal thoughts, I still have those like still keep that plan. I still want the white orchids. I still want

[22:21]Zibby Owens: know, keep all the We got it. Yeah.

[22:25]Michelle Williams: You you know what I mean? But now I think about it from a plan, thing of planning if if something were to happen, not because I'm thinking about it now from a place of wanting to die by suicide. Those dark moments were just, you just feel hopeless. You feel like nobody cares. You feel like maybe people just got what they needed from me, but they don't see that I'm in need. Not in need of money, but I need care. I need to know that you love me with or without all of this. And you can sometimes feel alone because people feel it's not that you change when you get successful, they change. I'm the same girl. I still go to I'll go to Publix. I love there's a certain grape that I like, and I go get them. The Moscato grape, the the Muscat grapes. I love those grapes. If I'm in if I'm in my hometown and my mother needs Jiffy cornbread mix, she sends me to go get it. I haven't changed. But it's like almost people kind of extract themselves from you because maybe they feel like they you're up here and they're down here and they don't deserve to be with you. And it's like, I need you. What are you talking about? I need connection. So I was just really oh, I was just those were the lies of the enemy too. Those were lies. Now maybe I could have reached out to someone because it's a two way thing. We're waiting on everybody to check-in on us. No, you can check-in on somebody too. You don't know what they're going through. That's true. Wow. So when you went through all of this, what was it like to then go back and revisit it to write this book? Like what was writing this book like for you? It was and when I started reading it in I started writing it in 2019 and I was still in emotional part of my engagement ending. So I'm also writing it from, I was writing it from that point of hope. When I look back at the book now, I'm like, Girl, you were so hopeful. It was fresh pain, you know? Fresh tears still being cried, but it was so healing. And if you see on the first page of the actual book, it says, With Holly Croshaw. And that's the person that sat there like a therapist and listened to everything that I'm saying that you see in this book. And she helped make it make sense. And that was so healing, Zebi. It was I do it like that all over again. Do I want to go through that pain all over again? No. But in 2021, when I look back at those words, I'm like, God, you brought me a mighty long way. I'm thankful to be telling the story. It's like I wanna knock on every door of my high rise building and just tell people there's hope. Hold on. I know to hold on. It does get better. You might have to put a little of the work in, but it gets better. It's so hard to confront pain, to confront the part she might have played in it. Oh, I just go back. When I talked to my therapist today, we talk about those, she met me in my darkest moment at the end of twenty eighteen. And sometimes she's just brought to tears by the growth and healing. I thank her. She's in the back of the book too. I have no shame, no shame in thanking the people and practitioners that really help. When I say no shame, it's like everybody listening, you know? Today, have no shame in seeking the help that you need. You don't have to be like me in announcing and broadcasting. You don't have to write a book and actually put the name of your therapist in the book. You don't have to do that. But I encourage you to process. And guess what? You don't have to process trauma. Maybe you just wanna process a transition, a divorce or a new job, the loss of a loved one,

[26:51]Zibby Owens: you know? Wow. It's so inspiring to hear you say it like that. You know, like it so many people need to hear your words. So it's so great to have to use your sort of platform in the world to spread this really important message. Because if you can be sad and you can go through this, then other people surely are and need to hear it.

[27:11]Michelle Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I just want to encourage the listeners that the name of this podcast is so amazing. Moms don't have time to read books, but I pray that you have time to invest in yourself, steal away and process, get counseling, pour back into you, because moms, you do so much. You do so much. You contribute so much to your home and to the community. So make sure that if you don't have time to read, get my audience in.

[27:48]Zibby Owens: So what is coming next now that you have this book coming out? I'm sure this is completely consuming every

[27:54]Michelle Williams: every moment of the day now knowing how book lunches are, but what's after this? You know what? I'm thinking of those infinity pools that are looking at the ocean. That's what's next. What's next? Well, the cool thing is I I do have a journal accompanying this book. There's a limited edition at Target where you can get a guided journal, but then there's gonna be a separate external journal that comes out in 2022. So we've already got that, and it's ready to go. But I really think I wanna take checking in everywhere, and just when we can be in person, I want to check-in with people and just really make this a thing where people are checking in. And a friend of mine has an organization called Silence the Shame, and so I said, Shanti, not only are we silencing the shame around the topic of mental health, but we're going to amplify silence,

[28:47]Zibby Owens: but we're going to amplify bravery and courage. I'm actually I'm on And that's what I want to do. I'm on the board of an organization called Child Mind Institute. And one of our main missions is eradicating the stigma around mental illness and helping kids and young you know, teens and young kids from an early age and giving inspiring role models like you to them. That's so good. That's so good.

[29:09]Michelle Williams: Well, let me know. I yeah. Let me know. I I'd love to to to do something with you guys. That'd be awesome. That warms my heart. Yeah. Especially with kids. Yep.

[29:19]Zibby Owens: I mean, they they do clinical work and they do research, and then they do these big campaigns, one of which is going on now where celebrities talk about my younger self and all the things that they wish they had known. Yeah. I'm gonna okay. I'll email you after it. I was gonna say, definitely let me know whatever I need to do. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. No. I'm a huge you know, I used to anyway, I'm very interested in this whole area for various reasons. And so your book really spoke to me. It's amazing. Sydney, thank you. What parting advice would you have for aspiring authors? Someone who's just starting to tackle this huge project.

[29:52]Michelle Williams: Oh, the authenticity is so real and so important. I know I wanted every fiber of me to be heard and felt. It's amazing when you can read the words and you feel like they're right there with you. Even if you're writing a fantasy, it's like, wow, I feel like I'm right there. So just put you all over it. Don't overwhelm yourself like I've been doing. Please don't. Please don't do that. And like you said,

[30:27]Zibby Owens: the people will find you. They'll find it. I recommended your book for my list on Good Morning America today, and then I was like so I can send you the link or whatever, but then when I was tagging you, because I know you have a whole thing in the book about, like, people improperly tagging you. And I was like, I'm gonna triple check that I did not tag the wrong Michelle Williams. I'm gonna check one more time because that would just be so classic if I mess that up.

[30:51]Michelle Williams: That's so funny. Yeah. Anyway,

[30:54]Zibby Owens: so I think it was great. I'm so glad that you decided to get real. I think you should do, like, a branded hotel suite with this sign. I think you should make it look like this with the sign behind you and this awesome wallpaper and this cool couch and, like, this whole, like, pink and green thing. And I think you should have an amazing room service menu and present the, like, checking in experience for people who need to check-in with themselves. I think you have to like partner with a hotel and like get that set up. Oh, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I need to have you a part of it for the idea. That's a great idea, Sydney. No. You take it. You go. Great idea. Great idea. When it's up, I'll come stay in it. How about that? Okay. Alright. Oh my gosh. Yes. Alright. There we go. Alright. Michelle, thank you so much. Tanitra, Michelle, whoever you are, thank you for this time together, and best of luck with your book. And I am rooting for you and I'm so grateful for your honesty and all the people that I know that you will help.

[31:50]Michelle Williams: Thank you so much for having me. We will do this again. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.

[31:59]Zibby Owens: Thanks so much to Audible for sponsoring this episode. Again, visit audible.com/zibby or text zibby to 500500. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on at zibby owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.