Anna Sale, LET'S TALK ABOUT HARD THINGS

[1:24]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of moms don't have time to lose weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Anna Sale is the author of Let's Talk About Hard Things. She is the creator and host of Death, Sex and Money, the podcast from WNYC Studios, where she's been conducting interviews about the things we think about a lot and need to talk about more since 2014. Before that, she covered politics for public radio for years. She's contributed to fresh air in this American life and lives in the East Bay in California with her husband and two daughters. Welcome, Anna. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss. Let's talk about hard things. Thanks for having me. This is like the best title ever. I mean, it's the best concept for a book, the way that you divided it into sections. I mean, this is like what I love doing is talking about hard things. It's perfect. It's like perfect book.

[2:46]Anna Sale: Oh, excellent.

[2:47]Zibby Owens: Yeah. That you should have called I should have actually used this as my podcast name. It would have been much better. Oh my gosh. Okay. So first of all, why don't you tell everybody what this book is actually about? And then how you decided to do it and how it came out as an outgrowth of death, sex, and money and your podcast and and all of this good stuff.

[3:11]Anna Sale: Sure. I mean, it started the book, Let's Talk About Hard Things, I mean, it's it's it's kind of a lot of things. It it's a memoir in part, mostly focused on sort of the ways what happened in my life when I was at the end of my twenties, starting my thirties, my first marriage was ending, and I had it surprised me. I was not expecting it. Felt like I was hit by a freight train and then had to figure out how to build back kind of the emotional scaffolding to help me figure out the next phase of my life. And the way I did that in my life was by just talking to anyone who would talk to me about how they did life, you know, like how they, you know, relationship of people in their lives, you know, career, particularly with women, career choices and where to be and how to make it work. I wanted to be a mother. All of a sudden I was divorced. I was in a relationship with this guy who lived in Wyoming. What, like, how is this all gonna work? So that's what led to me starting the podcast, Death, Sex, and Money, because I just I found myself so fed by these conversations in my personal life that just acknowledged that all of us have these messy uncertain moments, you know, like I and I wanted to hear more of that. I'd covered news and politics for a long time for public radio, and I just wanted to be doing journalism that was of a sort of more personal quality, but still like equally urgent. Like, I needed this in my life. And so that's how we started the podcast in 2014. And as the show the show's now almost seven years old. And I found that people would ask me like, wow, how do you talk to people about such private things? Like, how do you get people to open up? And I found that I would sort of like kind of describe my intuitive process. Well, I just am curious. You know, I ask and then I listen, you know, and and I found like, oh, I I would like to reflect on this more. Like, how is it that you can have a how can you set yourself up to have a more successful conversation about hard stuff? Because there is a skillfulness to it, you know, to to both kind of manage the timing and how do you kind of create the particular space? And then how do you know when you've said enough and you can revisit it? And so that all led me to sort of think about the book, which was, you know, how to apply what I do in a radio studio to conversations in real life. And I wanted to kind of look at what I had learned, and then I also interviewed a bunch of people, more than 30 people for the five chapters, which are death, sex, money, family, and identity, just honing in on these moments of, like, critical conversations in their lives to see what what they would add, what wisdom they had to share. Wow.

[6:06]Zibby Owens: Well, it turned out great. Thanks. Thank you. I, of course, liked I shouldn't say of course. I loved the interviews you did and all of the great information, but my favorite parts were about you because I really just, like, wanted to hear more about you and the way that you've gotten through the hard things in your life. And I loved how you started with your divorce, your unexpected singleness at 30, and, you know, how your life just took a different path and then how you sort of track the evolution until you understood what it was that made the relationship end. Until and then it all, like, comes full circle when you're like, you know, maybe one of us changed. Maybe he changed. Maybe we didn't want the same things. Like, I don't know. It was just like such a great arc of you. Thanks. Thank you. I feel like as a reader, you're like so invested and like I found myself like, that sounds creep this is now sounding creepy. That I'm like, oh, well, what did she say about her in this chapter? And like, you know,

[7:07]Anna Sale: because it gives such a context of of everything else. Thank you. I mean, I think when I think about the whole arc of that experience for me, and when I think about how I talk to other people about hard things, for me that whole going through that phase of just like rebuilding my life and how I felt about it and reading it now, I'm just like, oh, you just had so much shame, you know, and feeling like you messed up. Instead of being able to look at what I finally saw, it was a natural end to our relationship that we had loved each other. And then we looked up and realized, oh, the life that we want, I want something very different than you want. And so we had to battle about that and argue about who was right for a while. And then we finally just let it be okay that we wanted different things. But it was a real blow to my identity because I thought of myself first as someone who is a really hard worker. And if something is not working, I'm gonna harness the resources to make it all better. You know, I'm gonna read the books. I'm gonna go to the counseling. I'm gonna do the thing. And I think one of the big messages of the book that I hope people kind of like allow in is some hard conversations are hard because you're uncovering a truth that you're not quite ready to face. So it doesn't mean that you're not good at having a hard conversation. It means that you are uncovering something hard and maybe sad. And

[8:43]Zibby Owens: that was probably a good conversation to have. So now you know, so you're not in denial of it. It's so true. I feel like often people say you have to be so brave to talk about things. Right? But is it really it doesn't feel like bravery. It's just like, you just have to feel like you're not gonna be made fun of or, you know, that other person actually cares. Right? I mean. Yeah. I mean, I think that does take a certain,

[9:10]Anna Sale: you know, assuredness to be okay being vulnerable because, you know- That's true. Yes, that's true. But when you name the hard thing, at least you're not faking it. You know? That's right. So yeah, I tend to come down on that side. Like I may look foolish trying to have this conversation, but I'm really trying to name a thing that I think is there and we're pretending is not there. Well, I found that often

[9:40]Zibby Owens: people don't mind being asked more and more about themselves. Right? People don't usually mind. You know, I usually am like I mean, I try to couch it, like if you don't wanna talk about it, it's totally fine. But most of the time people are happy to talk about hard things about themselves.

[9:56]Anna Sale: Maybe not the hardest, but. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, it takes like listening and waiting for cues and maybe they're not ready to talk about that aspect or especially with some public forum, maybe it's private, but yeah, I agree with you by and large, if someone has been through something and learned something as a result of it, if you are opening up an opportunity to say like, tell me what was that like? Yep. They they wanna they wanna share. Yep. So Anna, what have you been through lately that you sound hard? Oh my goodness. I mean, I have a four and a half year old and a almost five she's almost five and two and a half year old. The two and a half year old, we're really trying to, like, get potty training nails down. I'm working from home. I'm 40. So I think the hard things right now for me in my life are just sort of like, just the post pandemic visioning and trying to allow myself to maybe want some things to look different without being really afraid. You know, I mean, sounds very like abstract kind of, but I think I find as that person who likes to read all the books and go to the counseling and figure everything out, like to really try to just be open to like, what could shift here? Comes with a lot of anxiety. So that's the hard thing that I'm in right now. Totally agree.

[11:24]Zibby Owens: Yeah. It seems very unclear. Things seem unclear how much they're going back to normal and how much they're not. And then then the people who are more comfortable with certain things and then people who are not and friends

[11:38]Anna Sale: and kids. Yeah. It's like a whole And we're all doing it at the same time. We're all doing it. Know, usually, we're a little staggered at who's, you know, couple of games. And we're all just, ah. I know. I know.

[11:50]Zibby Owens: I went to the park the other day. This is now, like, maybe three weeks ago or something. It was one of my first times, like, back in Central Park. And the friend I met and her daughter to meet my daughter and meet my seven year old, like, they weren't wearing masks. And I was like, but I feel still like I need to wear a mask outside and I want my kids to wear masks. And then, of course, when my daughter saw her daughter not wearing a mask, she ripped hers right off and was like, well, so I'm not she's not wearing a mask. I was like, oh my gosh. Here we go. And it's just like not this is so hard, but it's just like, okay. Parenting through post pandemic. It is hard. Where's the where's the rule book? You know? What do you do when your friends disagree? What do you do I don't know. Yeah. Potty training in general, by the way, is, like, really not fun, obviously. But I bet now it's even worse. Oh my gosh. I started bringing, like, Tupperware in the car so that we wouldn't have to go to a public bathroom in the pandemic. And now the kids, like, don't wanna go back to to the bathroom stops. And I'm like, no. No. No. It's time to put the Tupperware away. Oh my goodness. Okay. So let me just ask you about your podcast. So seven years of a podcast. So much obviously has changed in seven years. I mean, I didn't even know what podcasts were seven years ago, and I, you know, I barely knew what they were three years ago when I started mine. So you've seen this, like, whole evolution shift. Has it made you change anything in, the way you do your prep, your show, your anything? Like, the way you approach it, the way you think about it? Like, has anything in your process shifted with the, like, growth and popularity of the medium and also the show and all of that? Yeah. I mean,

[13:34]Anna Sale: I think well, you know, I do feel like as it's expanded in the universe of what feels possible with the ambition to make a podcast and the cultural impact you can have, you know, it's like, woah, this is this could be this is like such an open, wild frontier and it's changing so fast. And, you know, when I started my show, I was at WNYC and it kind of felt like it was like the JV squad. They're like, sure, we'll let you try to have a podcast. See what happens over there, you know? And then I realized, oh, this is really I really prefer this to broadcast radio because you can create this sense of community, you know, that's like when people are opting in to listen and join in and be a part of a conversation, like the sense of connection that you have with your listeners and what they'll share with you is incredible. And you can just like continually experiment with like format and, you know, what kind of sound do we wanna use and how like graphic do we wanna get in the you know, it's just like a really fun space. You know, I feel like now I just I kinda I just have to remember, like, used to be like, there were just so many fewer podcasts. It was easy to sound original, you know? And now it's like how it's more like trying to find peace with like podcasting is like cable television. And like, you know, these are my buddies who I think we would end up on HGTV together. And like, you know, I can learn from them and, you know, but wait, what's happening over there on ESPN? And like, what would be an interesting crossover? So it's just kind of like continually, like, being surprised and inspired by the landscape is is how I think of it now because it's just it's amazing what how much is being made. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[18:15]Zibby Owens: Did you have trouble with the book adding the two extra categories?

[18:20]Anna Sale: Like, did you debate which ones those would be? I thought I actually looked back at the book proposal and it was like originally supposed to be like 11 chapters and then like work and, you know, friendship and like kind of teasing out more stuff. And then I realized like, that's gonna be an encyclopedia. Part two.

[18:41]Zibby Owens: Super deal. What's going on? Yeah.

[18:44]Anna Sale: And so and then I thought, well, should we just do death, sex, and money in the book? But I kind of wanted to pull out family and identity and add those because I think they added an important dimension. Like, they are real sources of hard things and to just like ignore that or flatten it. I just I was just like curious what I would learn if I said, okay, what is hard about being it's primarily about being an adult in a family and what your relationship is to your family of origin and what tensions are built in to just what's part of growing up and growing apart and also what happens when there's real differences in your values and how you see the world and how do you navigate that. And identity, just really wanted to include because I feel like that's where I have felt the most sort of like, I'm just gonna stop talking because I'm afraid I'm gonna say the wrong thing. You know, as a white woman in particular who, you know, who's financially comfortable and doesn't have a disability and has been a citizen of The United States, like, there's so many ways I'm aware that, like, I am not competent and have not been competent. But rather than sort of like, just kind of like pretend that I don't feel those things, I was like, Let's dig in and see. But yeah, so that's how I came to The Five. And honestly, like, when I think about over the seven years of the show, family and identity have also sort of woven through death, sex, and money in different dimensions too. So felt pretty natural.

[20:13]Zibby Owens: And I feel like your whole section on death, I mean, there's never it's a very good time essentially to give people the tools that they need because it's hard to ignore it. It's one thing if like you're busy in your life and one friend has something happened. But this is like, you know, so universal right now that giving people these skills is like, you know, the baseline for discussion. There are other books and guides and things to like what you should do to be a good friend talking about death or what you can do. When you were doing all your research, like what was new and surprising to you in it?

[20:46]Anna Sale: I mean, I just really loved being reminded by this woman, Megan Devine, who's a grief counselor. Just like, don't say everything happens for a reason. Don't say, what can I do to help? You know, don't say the things that you just try to say to like show yourself to be useful. And instead really try to say the thing that says, I see you're in pain and I love you. And I want to tell you it's okay that you're in pain or you're angry or whatever the sets of emotions are for someone in grief. And I also wanted to explore talking about death outside of the context of like terminal illness or, you know, I love people in my life who are older and I think about their death and I would feel bad about thinking about their death and was like, should we talk about their death? What should I do here? And so one conversation I sort of forced myself to have in the course of writing, it was sitting down with my friend, Anne, who's now in her late eighties and just saying, what is it like for you? How do you think about this? Like, how have you tried to be a friend to people who were, you know, seeing parts of themselves diminish with age? And, you know, what did you learn from being the friend and the caregiver in that situation? How do you notice now when people are trying to do that with you? You know? And she just said one of the most simplest things like, you know, that I noticed when I would walk alongside someone who was older, you know, I would just offer my arm and sometimes they would just take it wordlessly and sometimes they would kind of shrug it off. And we did that interview and like just a few months later, we were somewhere out in public and Anne Simpson is proud, dignified, cool woman who, you know, she's in control. But we were walking and I just offered her my arm and we had to, like, walk through this corridor while we were both going to the restroom. And it was just really special that she had, like, shown me how to show that kind of care without making her feel uncomfortable or bothered over in a way that made her feel, you know, like a way that she didn't like. I feel like my grandmother just passed away at 97.

[23:02]Zibby Owens: And until the end, she was sort of like like, I'd be like, here, let me help you. Get away. Like, she would literally I mean, she was like hilarious, but, you know, till the last second, she's like, I can do this myself, you know? And then I was thinking, like, I'm like that too. Like, what makes me think that when I'm older, I'm gonna let people do things? Like, no matter what happens, and I bet you're, like, the same way, but maybe not. But, like, you know, C sections or whatever. Like, didn't want any help. Like, I'm good. Like, I I don't know. Just assuming older people would want that is yeah. It's tough for independent minded, independent people who are used to that shift. And I love, by the way, the book that you were explaining when you had that conversation, all the things that the person who is experiencing grief has to then process when someone just says, let me know what you need. Because it's not just that. It's like, I have to figure out what I need, which is like hard in and of itself when I can't even like, you know, get dressed in the morning or whatever. Like, I have to figure out what I need. I have to figure out which of my friends can give it to me. I have to ask that friend, and then I have to deal with the fact that like that friend might say no. And then where am I left? Now I've wasted all this time and energy. I can you know? So I think it's just so useful how you sort how you painted how that whole picture of of what happens and the down the pitfalls.

[24:19]Anna Sale: Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I love about that story with Megan is when she talks about her friend who was really worried about her, you know, who who needed assurance that Megan was gonna be, you know, so she just lost her partner suddenly. Oh, was so sweet. Like, we don't have to talk, but I just need to know you're okay. And they had a system where Megan would just text her an asterisk, like, I'm here. I just thought that was like, oh, if we could all say, I'm worried about you. And instead of like imposing work on you because I'm worried about you, like, can you just can we have a figure out a system? I thought that was really I love that. Loving. That was really great.

[24:55]Zibby Owens: So what was it like for you doing this book? Like, how long did it take and, like, what was your process like and did you enjoy it? Oh, it was really hard.

[25:07]Anna Sale: I don't know when I thought I was gonna write when I did. I like was like, Oh, book proposals, fun to write. Like ideas, I love this. And like a whole new sort of way of communicating. That's gonna be so fun. And then, and I had one child when I signed the book deal. And then I had a second while I was writing. And it was hard. It was a lot of, you know, the time because I also had a job. So I took vacation time to do reporting trips or I, you know, to do, I used part of my maternity leave. The second kid had some childcare and I would do, you know, I did a lot of writing during that phase. And I think if someone had told me writing a book for you is gonna be like going to college, it's gonna take four years. Then I would've I think I would've been a little you know, I wish someone had told me that because when it took from signing to now the book coming out has been four years. Like, if someone had told me that's okay, you can expect that. You can expect all the emotions that you went through in college. Then I would feel, have felt a lot better. But instead I just, the hardest part for me about the book was it was a thing that was never done in the right here in the back of my head while I was doing my other work, I was trying to be with my family, like, And that was a new kind of work for me because what's been so satisfying about working in newsrooms and making a weekly podcast is you get excited about something, you make it, and then you share it and it's out there, you know? And this was something that was just I was carrying for a long time. And I'm glad in some ways because I got to just like really sort of mull over this stuff. Like, what do you have to say, Anna Sale, about death, sex, and money that's not been said by every religion in the world and every book of literature in the world. Like, what is this adding? So I got to think about that a long time, but the thinking about it for so long was tough, but I'm very glad I now have a book I can hold in my hand. Bet. That feels satisfying.

[27:12]Zibby Owens: Yes. That's excellent. Oh my gosh. So if you were to do another book well, first of all, maybe you are doing another book. Let me let me change this. Are you doing another book?

[27:24]Anna Sale: I'm intrigued by another book. I do think like the, what was really fun about this book. I like the mix of like, this is something I've gone through and then doing reported interviews to like add different dimensions I to think that's like a really cool form because you can both go inward and also do this really broad survey. Mean, that's why I make desks and money the way I do because I like that. I like that. But I've also sort of, I've gotten really interested in like children's books and how we tell stories to our kids about how the world is. You know, I think that there's interesting, I don't know. I like just the conversations you can have with a four and a half year old really make you think about if I really wanna like break this down in a way. It's a real challenge. So so I think about both those things are sort of like, I'm interested.

[28:20]Zibby Owens: Cool. That sounds good.

[28:22]Anna Sale: I'm also interested. I'm also interested in perimenopause and menopause as a 40 year old. Like, I feel like every person I talk to who's like in this is slightly older than me. They're like, this is what's coming, and no one talks about it. And literally,

[28:37]Zibby Owens: I feel like I have I'm, like, on like, in Disney World or something, and I have just, like, put the thing the, like, contraption on, and I'm holding onto the sides. And, like, everybody's, like, waving at me, and I'm just sitting there waving back, like, waiting. Like, okay. I mean, I don't know. Like, I sweat at night. That's my only thing. And otherwise, I'm just like, I don't know. I don't think this is it. We'll see. I love that idea. You're like know. I don't know. Here we go. Here we go. But, I mean, in truth, that's really, like, with everything. We don't know what's coming and who knows what's coming next. And there are people who make you fear it and people who embolden you to, like, go forth and it's gonna be okay. And I don't know. I think I don't know. That's just sort of how it's gonna all be fine, and it's gonna be what it is or it won't. And then we just, like, pick up and move on, and that's sort of what we have to do.

[29:36]Anna Sale: Yeah. We just have to go through it. Just have to go through it. Yeah. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors? You know, something that I loved about writing this book was that it forced me to make space to write, you know, which was which can be really hard when you have a job and kids and a partner and life, you know? But like being like, no, no, this is my Saturday morning. You have to take the kids to the playground. I'm just gonna sit and stare at this blank page and say like, what is it that's what's this thing that I haven't given words to yet? I think that's such a it's it's just I loved being forced to make that space. So my advice to aspiring authors is like, you just have to build in those slots of time. Maybe you won't be productive, but it's just to see. See what's stirring around in there and give yourself that time. And I know moms don't have time. I felt like I didn't have time. But to be really forced to be like, No, no, just take a little bit of time that's protected from other things because this is important. I think was a really That was a gift of writing this, of being forced to take that time. Because otherwise I would have just filled it with other things. I love that advice.

[30:52]Zibby Owens: I've been trying to work on something and I found the only time I can reliably do it is if I sit on the last kid's bed who's yet to fall asleep. In this case, it's usually my almost 14 year old daughter. And I like sit on her little bed with my laptop, and I'm like, you just go to sleep. I'm just just and it's before I go down and, like, talk to my husband again and, like, deal with my emails and whatever. But I read while the little guys fall asleep, and then I write while she falls asleep. And at least it's a little bit. I don't know. Oh,

[31:21]Anna Sale: I just well, also, I just like thinking about that that's gonna be a memory of your daughter's, like looking at the foot of her bed and You seeing know, that's cool. That's cool. That she knows this is how this is how my mom made space. She fitted it fit us all around it. You know, I just like that. Yeah.

[31:40]Zibby Owens: Well, this has been so nice. Thank you so much for coming on, and I really appreciate your time. And anytime you want to talk about hard things, give me a call. I'm always up for talking about hard things.

[31:53]Anna Sale: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. All right. Thanks for creating the communities you have. They're really great. They're amazing. Awesome.

[31:59]Zibby Owens: Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.