Jessica Bacal, THE REJECTION THAT CHANGED MY LIFE

[1:51]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. I could not be more proud to announce today's sponsor and why they're sponsoring the podcast. Citizens of Humanity, which you may know as this amazing denim company, decided to do Stay Safe t shirts. They're available on Monday, May 3, and you can shop them exclusively on the Citizens of Humanity website, citizensofhumanity.com. A 100% of the retail selling price of every t shirt sold supports the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID-nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System, which I founded. I am over the moon grateful and excited that Citizens of Humanity is donating their proceeds of their Get Vaxxed shirts which are long sleeved unisex t shirts available in white or black and the retail price is $34 Go to Citizens of Humanity. Please go get one of these t shirts. And again every t shirt sold supports vaccine research at Mount Sinai and the program that I founded to honor my late mother-in-law. Thank you Citizens of Humanity for choosing my charity to donate the proceeds to. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I am just so excited. So go check out Citizens of Humanity, the shirt, buy some jeans, go crazy, and just thank you. Jessica Fekal is the author of The Rejection That Changed My Life, 25 plus Powerful Women on Being Let Down, Turning it Around, and Burning it Up at Work. Jessica is director of Reflective and Integrative Practices and of the Narratives Project at Smith College. She leads programs to help students explore identity and find resilience in community. She also teaches a course called Designing Your Path which guides students to consider questions like what is your story? Where have you been and where are you going? What matters to you? What skills do need to pursue what matters? Before her career in higher education she was an elementary school teacher in New York City and then a curriculum developer and consultant. She received a bachelor's degree from Carleton College, an MFA in writing from Hunter College, and an Ed. D. From the University of Pennsylvania. I don't even know what that is. She lives in Northampton, Massachusetts with her husband, two children, and her two dogs. Welcome, everybody. I have a full house here to discuss the rejection that changed my life by Jessica Bacall. 25 plus powerful women on being let down, turning it around, and burning it up at work. Thank you all for joining. Thanks for having us. So I have Jessica McCall, the author and compiler perhaps of this whole bug, Chelsea Klein, and Polly Rodriguez. So I would love for you guys to discuss how you got involved with this project and what rejection you shared. So why don't I actually start with Chelsea and Polly and then I'll go on to Jessica and find out about the whole project in and of itself. Sure. You want me to start? I want you to start. I'm

[5:22]Chelsea Klein: so excited to be here. It's really nice to meet you, Libby. So my name is Chelsea Klein and I know Jess from, I think, living in the same town in Northampton. And we have a connection through Smith College and just being women in the same town and being interested in similar things. So the story that I shared was about how I ran for state senate and didn't win. And how the value of putting oneself out there and not getting what one wants is pretty tremendous because I think a lot of people sort of think, What if I don't get the thing that I want? I would be so mortified. I'd be so embarrassed. I did that. And I'm still standing. And it was really powerful for me to be able to share that story in Jess's book and to find so much camaraderie as I read this book, like, Ugh, I'm not alone. And it's really heartening. That book is so comforting. It's so powerful. And I really think it's actually revolutionary.

[6:28]Zibby Owens: I agree. And like all the sections on different women, everybody has their lessons learned at the end and things that you can take away, all of which are completely actionable and amazing. So what were what was one of yours that what's your favorite one that you shared? You Do even remember in the book? I think my favorite one I mean, honestly, I'm really starstruck that Polly Rodriguez is here, but I'm I'm also really smitten with Loretta Ross. I mean, there's so many stories in here that were people that I admire and that people that I knew about already that I was really excited about.

[6:59]Chelsea Klein: Just hearing sort of like the flip side or the warts and all, or like the real, you know, the real truth behind their success, it was like just so comforting and so calming, Oh, we're all human. And I really think that, you know, there's these male or like traditional models of ambition, right? Which is like, Don't let anyone see you sweat. And this book is really turning all of that on its ear because we're saying, we are sweating. Breaking down barriers and being ambitious is really sweaty work when you're a woman, especially if you're a woman of color and you're from a marginalized background. And it's really powerful to say that this is hard and I'm falling down and I'm dusted up and I scrape my knees and I'm getting up and I'm doing it anyway. And that's what I mean. This book is so revolutionary and so powerful and so important because we're breaking barriers by just talking about these things. I'm so grateful to Jess for writing this. Thanks, Chelsea.

[7:56]Zibby Owens: Jess, I found it so interesting in your introduction how some people wouldn't even admit to their mistakes. And for your last book too, that they didn't even wanna go there. They were like, Well, don't wanna admit. Right? I mean Yeah. I mean, there was someone I talked to on the phone. She was considering

[8:11]Jessica Bacal: being interviewed for the book. But she said, you know, I just I really don't like the word rejection. Are you sure you're gonna have rejection in the title? And I was like, yeah, I am. I'm

[8:22]Zibby Owens: gonna have rejection in the title. By the way, you totally inspired me. And I think it's because I've been reading this book, you know, now to prep for today. And I just launched this new podcast called moms that have time to have

[8:53]Zibby Owens: This is an opportunity to, like,

[9:12]Jessica Bacal: I I really appreciate that. I love that. And I I do think that that kind of modeling is so useful useful for other people that you're willing to put that out there, you know, I think is great. Well, thank you. So you're already changing lives. Just one reader. Here we go. Okay. Polly, would you mind introducing yourself and sharing what you contributed to the book? Yeah, absolutely. I'm Pai Rodriguez. I'm the CEO and co founder of Unbound,

[9:35]Polly: which speaking of sexuality is a sexual wellness company with the goal of taking an entire category of products spanning vibrators, lubricants, accessories, as well as content that is educational, but also relatable, mainstream through just affordable pricing and innovative design. And I think being vulnerable and being open about the realities of what it takes to get to where you are is something I'm super passionate about. Because when I was first starting the business, I was in debt. I felt like I was failing every day and it was really isolating experience. And so, transparent about how hard that is with other female founders on a more intimate scale was really empowering for me, which I think is a word that is often abused. But it was just something that I felt so much less alone when I realized that it was difficult for everyone, not just me. And so, I was really excited by the book. I've loved reading it. And I think it goes back to just acknowledging that, like, it's not super easy for anyone and everyone is facing battles and struggles, and you just don't know what the other person's going through until you read a book like this. It's almost like you have to go through these rejections, and yet people feel like you're not supposed to take these little

[10:51]Zibby Owens: pivot or not pivot, you know, misdirection, like detours, detours. But that it's not even a detour. Like, you have to get rejected in order to like, if any if somebody didn't have any rejections their whole career, that would be nuts. Right? I I bet they wouldn't have as rich an understanding of or even an appreciation for where they're they've gotten to after all that. And back to Jess finally as we circle around here. Tell me about starting this book. Tell me about how your experience at Smith and trying to start your own program and and sort of failing and then your reconsideration of if you even really wanted it. Tell me about that whole thing and how this book came to be. Yeah.

[11:27]Jessica Bacal: Well, so at Smith, where I've worked for over a dozen years, there was a reorganization. And in the process of the reorganization, I applied for a bigger job at the college. And just like, here's an anecdote to show you how nervous I was. I hired a speaking coach to like coach me on my job talk. And on this one day that I, you know, practiced my job talk with her, I also drove back to campus, where I'd assembled all these colleagues to also listen to me give a job talk. You know, I parked my car, I did that, then I went to work. And when I came back to my car at the end of the day, I'd left my motor running for six hours. Like I was just so anxious and distracted. And then I didn't get the job. And it was humiliating because I had to then go tell that speaking coach and those colleagues I'd assembled and all the people who wrote references for me and people who knew me and had interviewed me. So I was humiliated. But even as I was learning that I hadn't gotten this job, I felt this little sense of relief. And I was like, what is that about? You know, maybe I actually didn't want this job. And you know, that experience made me wonder if rejection was maybe more complex than we think of it as being. And I wondered if it would be interesting to gather women's stories about rejection. And I was interested in women in part because Smith is a historically women's college. And I work with young women and in part because, you know, I think women are socialised to be approval seeking. And so it was interesting to me to talk to people about, you know, what happened when they hadn't gotten that approval. And so I just it was an amazing opportunity to get to talk to powerful people like Chelsea and Polly. And to then, you know, after kind of accumulating all these interviews to think about, well, what are the lessons that are emerging? And, you know, I'll just with Polly, for example, you know, she was able to use rejection as data. I mean, I think you'd agree with this, Polly. You know, she pitched her company Unbound at she she applied to these large pitch competitions in big cities at first, and it wasn't working out because people, mostly men, didn't really understand her product, you know, and but she took that data that, okay, maybe the big competitions aren't gonna work out. And she went to smaller cities and smaller competitions, and that's where she started to get her funding. Another important lesson from the book, I think, is that rejection tolerance is a muscle. And I think Chelsea's story really demonstrates this because Chelsea, she put herself out there as someone who never run for office. And she had to go door to door, introduce herself, and just deal with, like, some people weren't interested. You know, some people in in our town weren't gonna vote for her. But she pushed through, and she says something. And I think you say in your story, Chelsea, like, you've someone had told you at the end of it, like, okay, you're made of steel. Like, you could walk through fire now. You've you've you've really done it. And I do think that there's a strength that comes from experiencing, I I think, the smaller rejections that you have to experience on a campaign, but then also the larger rejection that you experienced after,

[14:47]Zibby Owens: you know, actually getting a ton of support, voter support, but not winning the election. This is like when my I had twins. I mean, is a million years ago now. But when they would cry, like, uncontrollably and I was I would always feel like I was doing something wrong and the doctor was like, no. No. It's okay. Because when they're crying like this, they're building up their lungs and you're making them into better people. This might have been completely not true, by the way. Now that I say this out loud, having not thought about it for, like, fourteen years, it was probably a lie. But anyway, in other words, there's always some sort of silver lining to it. You're building up something as you're failing something else. So Yeah. I don't know. After Polly and Chelsea in particular, after you got over sort of those pitfalls or failures? Or how did you keep going? Like, Polly, what made you

[15:31]Polly: not say, oh, okay. Well, I was rejected at this conference. Forget it. I guess I had a bad idea. And, like, what like, how did you pick yourself up, Chelsea? Like, what happens after? Yeah, I mean, so I, we went out to raise like a seed round of funding and it took, you know, you read all these stories in the press of, I had this idea, I wrote it down on a cocktail napkin, and then all of a sudden VCs were just like fighting over giving me money. And I think because that wasn't my experience, it forced me to really focus on the business and figure out, okay, what part of this feedback is valid that I should incorporate and really consider? And it taught me how to just be really honestly critical and not take things so personally where I was able to say, okay, that feedback is valid and I should probably think about how to incorporate and change it versus that is just someone that's afraid of what we do and the stigma. And I think me personally, I hadn't found it in myself starting a business in sexuality. Like I grew up in the Midwest, my parents were very taken aback when I told them that this is what I wanted to do. And I realized that I was internalized, like a lot of the failure that was happening was reflective of stuff that I hadn't worked through internally. And so for me, it kind of taught me how to look at things more objectively and not take them so personally. And then on the other side of that, it was about building community and being around other women who are going through something similar so that you didn't feel like it was just you going through that on your own. But it's tough and it's not perfect. And it's definitely a linear line where like point B is higher than point A, but it's got a curve that goes up and down every day. So I try to remember that where I feel on that curve will change day to day, but ultimately

[17:15]Zibby Owens: it's a net positive movement, if that makes sense. That does make sense. I love that. And how about you, Chelsea? How did you pick yourself up? Well, I think for me, I had been in spaces

[17:26]Chelsea Klein: where I had helped encourage other women to run for office and I had been really involved in that. So part of it for me was about like really walking my walk. And then once I actually ran, I had much deeper of a perspective on what it actually means to run for office and really understanding what a tremendous privilege it is to run for office. So it felt really important to me to translate my failure into, or my lack of winning, whatever you want to call it, into something positive to help other people run, like using what I had learned to really talk about the privilege that you need to be able to run for office and also like kind of the nuts and bolts, right? So now I feel this tremendous responsibility to help other women run for office and to share my story and to talk about the fact that I ran by the skin of my teeth and had to call everyone I knew and ask them for $5 to help me run. So I wasn't like the traditional candidate. So I really felt like my story was really important and that I could help other women. And that to me, like just shifted everything because if I can help somebody demystify the process, if I can really explain sort of the nuts and bolts, if I can be a resource for someone, then it makes it all worth it, right? Because I'm not just sitting back going, Oh, you should run, you should run. I'm saying, Hey, I did it. And it was really, really hard and also really worth it. And I'm really glad I did it and it completely kicked my butt and let me help you do it too. The more that we can normalize running and not winning, the more that we can normalize jumping into campaigns, even if you're not perfect and you don't have all the right experience, then I think the more that we're gonna be working for actual equality, right? Those are the most important things to me. And with that being said, the more that I can share my story, I think the more that I can help people. So I'm actually working really hard to do that in a more formal way and launching my own podcast that talks about women running for office and all those things. Like this has really become part of like my career, you know, trajectory and like part of my DNA of like, it's okay to fall down. We all do it sometimes.

[22:30]Zibby Owens: And what's your podcast called? It's called Galvanized. And it's interviews with women who have run for office, women who have won and not won, and women who've been campaign managers and really working for like, how do we get more women to run? So it has like a real, you know, strong educational push to it. I just chatted with a woman named Julie Menon here on the Upper East Side Of New York and she's running now and she's never run for office before. Anyway, I feel like I should put you in touch because she has four kids and she's like amazing. She's running for controllers or something. Something that it's not the mayor, but she's like, no, I'm not doing the mayor race, but this is what I think I can do. And anyway, she was so impressive. So I should put you in touch. Oh, yes, please. Feel like she she could use you. I mean, for sure. I'll put her on. Alright. And also, just interviewed recently Mark Shriver who wrote 10 Hidden Heroes and and, you know anyway, he had lost a race also after being in the Maryland state legislature for, two decades. And he was talking about that as one of his most profound moments in life was getting over that rejection. And said that he was, you know, it was a very, very close race. And he, like, couldn't believe it. The next morning, he went to brunch with his son and his wife and was just, like, feeling so defeated and everything. And I guess they had been singing the song, It's a Beautiful Day by U2. It was that time of life. And they walked out of this diner and his son jumped in front of him when he was all downcast and everything and just said, dad, it's a beautiful day. And he was like, oh, you're right. And literally starts, like, crying telling me because he's like, that's what it's about. So I feel like it's it's like whatever you can use in your toolbox to remember what's important and that these are temporary moments, you know, that they are just little dots on the whole sort of timeline of life. They're not like the end of any sort of timeline.

[24:17]Chelsea Klein: Anyway, you all know this. I don't know why I'm summarizing it, but yes. Yeah. I'm glad that you bring that up though because I feel like that having that your kids witness those sort of ups and downs that you mentioned, I think that's so incredibly poignant. And I think actually for my kids, I think that was the most painful part of my running was seeing my kids' reactions to it. I was a teen mom, so I have a 20 kid now and she was really active in my campaign. And then my, I have a 13 year old and they were so heartbroken that I didn't win. And that like really, really hurt me. But it also felt like such a great thing to model for my kids. It's like, we do the best we can and sometimes it doesn't work out and we still have to carry on. But that was like, I really felt like I was like, I'm soldiering on everyone. I'm saying the things I'm supposed to say. But I was also like, this hurts. This is sad. And that's human, right? It felt, it was a lot, but it was good.

[25:11]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I think it's a great lesson for kids. You know, I think I think it's amazing that they were able to witness that and see you get through it. And Jess, what other pieces of I mean, you have so many takeaways. Your book is like chock full of them. But you I really liked that the difference between how you handle it is is how you rebound essentially. Right? It's it's not just the rejection or how big the rejection is. It's like the ability to pick yourself up and keep going. Right? The resilience or grit or whatever you wanna call How do you do you think some people just like have that more than other people? That ability? Like are you born with that ability to kind of like bounce off the ground quicker

[25:49]Jessica Bacal: than others? Or you think it's a skill that we all have to acquire? What do think? I mean, I think some people might be naturally more resilient than others. But I definitely think it's something we can practice and acquire. And actually, one of my favorite moments in the process of developing this book was interviewing Angela Duckworth, who is the seminal researcher on GRYT. She is a psychologist at University of Pennsylvania. And I loved hearing her say that when she gets rejected or when she's struggling, she tells everyone in her lab, she's talking about it all the time. And she said something like, you know, more tears have gone into my husband's shirt collar than you could imagine. So just knowing that this the researcher on grit also cries when she gets rejected, that was very comforting to me, you know, and I do think that it's not that we don't feel badly when we're rejected, I think. And I think it's okay. I think a lot of women in the book talked about the importance of feeling your feelings, you know, but then you can do these other things like taking the long view, you know, seeing rejection as data, you know, Polly talked about not taking things so personally, but having this curiosity about the rejection, you know, viewing it with a little more distance and, you know, building these muscles, modeling for other people that, you know, rejection is part of life and you can move on. I mean, I also learned that researchers are finding it sparks creativity. You know, it can spark creativity. So that was encouraging too.

[27:27]Zibby Owens: I love, by the way, when you were describing Angela Duckworth that you were like, oh, and by the way, she's really funny. Why? Because you just wouldn't know. Love I when you just, like, get to know because in my mind, she's like this sort of legendary, you know, advice guru and Yeah. Founder of this psychological movement. You're like, no. No. Actually, she's, like, hilarious. Yeah. She's formidable

[27:46]Jessica Bacal: seeming. But, yeah, it's just formidable.

[27:48]Zibby Owens: And also Alicia Reiner, who's actually in my book group, my Zoobie's virtual book group. I got to know her in the pandemic, and now she comes most weeks and we've like you know, she's talked to my husband about different projects. Anyway, that whole thing too because as actresses or actors, I should say, excuse me, they face rejection constantly. And so she had to get involved in other things like producing and directing or what you know, all these other pivots that people have to do. How did you end how did you connect with everybody in in the book? Well,

[28:18]Jessica Bacal: some people were people I knew, like Chelsea, and then there were a couple of other Smith alumnis. So, you know, I think a nice thing about getting older is, you know, you know, these young people like my former assistant at Smith, Allie, she was my assistant in my office, but she went off and became a rock star. So she's the basis for potty mouth. And she lives in LA. And so I was like, Allie, can I interview you? You know, and so some people were people like that who I knew. But some people were like people I just found online who seemed interesting. You know, I just Googled and cold emailed. And Polly is an example of that. Know, I emailed her office and asked if she might be willing based on some things I'd read online, you know, panels she'd been on, things she'd written, and she was willing to talk. And then, you know, there were definitely a lot of no's as well.

[29:08]Zibby Owens: You could write a whole book about the rejection of the women rejecting you for being in the book. Yeah. That'll be part two. Yeah. What about men? Yes. What about them? Right. No. I'm just asking, like, do do what about their experience of rejection? I don't know. I'm thinking about, like, my sons and, you know, what they're gonna have to face too and I don't know. Yeah. I do think that this is a book for everyone and that, you know, it's not I was so interested with my first book, which was about mistakes.

[29:36]Jessica Bacal: One of the first times I had people read it, I gave some sections to students from Amherst College and Smith. We were then and UMass. We were in a workshop together. I was leading and the men, the young male students responded really well. You know, they found it really inspiring and helpful. So I definitely think that anyone could read this book. I was more interested in interviewing women because it was women's stories that had inspired me personally. You know, when I Elizabeth Bell, who's in the book, is someone I knew in my own life. And, you know, she was rejected from medical school 17 times. And that was inspiring to me. But, you know, I think men, I don't know. I don't think that men and women, you know, when I think about men and women and rejection, you know, there's a myth that women are less likely to take risks than men. And I don't think that's true. I think it it's equal. And then there was a big meta analysis that came out of Boston University a couple of years ago. This researcher looked at all these studies on women and risk taking and found that there's actually a 95% overlap in men and women and risk taking. But it's like those differences get magnified because that's what catches the attention of journals when people send things out to publish. I do think women are more ruminative. Like we're more likely to turn things over and over in our minds and

[30:58]Zibby Owens: feel badly and wonder what could we do differently. And so, you know, that's another reason why I think this book might be especially useful for women. I have to say, I loved the way you wrote it, that you were just so it was like talking to a friend. I loved it. I felt like I knew you before I you know, you and your dogs and just like how you introduced also every chapter instead of just, like, putting the story out there. Like, I don't know if that was a conscious decision in the writing process or not, but I loved that. And I was thinking, like, I produce these anthologies occasionally. I'm like, oh, I should do that. I should, like, put a little intro paragraph because it gives everything such a better context. So, anyway, I just loved how you did that. Yeah. And the exercises in the back too, by the way, those were like so huge. I was like, I'm like, I should I know I have to now I have to go back and like sit and do some of them.

[31:44]Jessica Bacal: Those are based on activities that I've done with my students at Smith over many years. And they include poems we've used that I actually got in touch with these poets to ask, can I put your poems in the book? It was so wonderful, because I was able to tell them, you know, I've been using your poems as prompts with students for years. Those were really cool conversations. And I think that, you know, there's one exercise that invites people to write about themselves in the third person. And that's that's useful, you know, to kind of that's one way of getting some distance from a rejection, for example. One thing that when I was first starting to I went to this writing class. This is years and years ago. And Susan Shapiro, who's ended up being on my podcast said, okay. Well, you can't take it personally when you get rejections for pitching articles. You're going to get rejections. Assume you're gonna get 10. Get a spreadsheet going. Put a line in. As soon as the first rejection comes in, great. You started filling up your chart. Go on to the just get it ready and send it out again.

[32:39]Zibby Owens: And it's such a great mentality because you don't even have time to you shouldn't even think about it. Like, okay. Okay. This race is over. Done. Like this VCA passed. Great. I'm going to the next one on my list and I'm not even gonna stop to cry. It doesn't mean anything. It just like that wasn't the right thing. Yeah. I think it's a good sort of approach to many

[32:58]Jessica Bacal: tasks in life. Yeah. Having a system like that, I think it provides almost a structure to have the kind of remove that you need to persevere through something like sending out, you know, articles. Yeah.

[33:11]Zibby Owens: So what parting advice would all of you have? Even about writing this book, by the way, Jessica, and like writing books in general, the fact that you were went back to like pursue the PhD after getting rejected. Like all these things. What would your parting advice be to either aspiring authors or people just who have been knocked down and are struggling to get back up again? Now I should put that song. Do you know what I'm talking about? I get it. I get it. Yeah. Okay. Alright. I'll spare you. Okay. What's it? I get knocked down. Yeah. You should make a playlist for the book. Can I know? I thought yes. Spotify playlist. Anyway. Okay. What so what what would your advice be, the all three of you? Jessica, you go first. I I'll just I'll give advice for writing. I mean, I

[33:54]Jessica Bacal: feel sometimes I have this one friend who's a writer. I love her books. And she's a novelist. Her novel is The Optimistic Decade. It's a great novel. And she I sometimes I feel like I wouldn't even be writing if it weren't for her. Like, doing this, you know, to get her approval. I know it's not really true, but it's like, it has so helpful to have her encouragement, to have her read my writing, to just talk about writing with her. And so I would say, like, if you have one writer friend that can really help you. And

[34:29]Zibby Owens: I think that having the community at the time in the times of rejection are also so important. So it's like a multifunctioned

[34:35]Chelsea Klein: Yeah. Exactly. Right? Yeah.

[34:38]Zibby Owens: Crash pad if you will. Alright, Chelsea. I think using

[34:42]Chelsea Klein: our failures and our rejections as a way to help other people sort of takes the sting out of it. And back to your earlier question about what about men, I mean this work really transcends gender because it's about making ambition and making our successes more human and more real and more collaborative and it's about sharing knowledge. And that can help everybody. And that can make our professional workplaces and our communities more humane and more inclusive and kinder.

[35:14]Polly: Love it. Polly, how about you? Yeah, I would just say the thing I've learned through startups and endless rejection is that if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Like, it's hard for a reason. And if you feel, I've learned this only like over time, but if you feel like you're failing every day, it means you're doing something that's really difficult and it doesn't feel that way. But for me, it's like the moment I feel safe and comfortable, I'm like, Oh, I'm not growing anymore. I'm not. So, I think the most helpful thing for me has just been to have the context of like, if you are being rejected, it means you're doing something that's difficult and worthwhile. Because if you never got rejected, then it means you're never trying anything that really pushes you in a new way that you'll grow. So, I look at rejection as a good thing. I love that, Polly.

[36:03]Chelsea Klein: If we're not being rejected, then we're just stagnant, right? It's awesome. Yeah. And then you get to go back

[36:10]Polly: and win. And, you know, I was single for like six or seven years when I first moved to New York. And I remember like dating was very similar, where I'd go on all these dates and get rejected all the time. But I finally started going into the mindset of like, well, either it'll be a good date or a good story. And kind of just looking at it from that perspective of like, either it'll turn out the way I want or I'll get a badge of honor for, you know, muddling through it. Yes.

[36:36]Zibby Owens: Turning it all into a learning opportunity. It's like the preschool teachers might say. I love that. Well, this has been so fun. Okay. So Chelsea, I'm to put you in touch with Julie and Polly, I would love to talk to you about my new podcast, which I launched today, Snortime to Have Sex. And if there's something maybe we could do together, that would be really fun. Yeah. Apple rejected it, Zibby. That's so crazy to me. Right? And it's very tame. It's just for like normal moms who just have like secret questions, you know? It's not like very creepy or anything. But anyway, who knows? We'll see. And Jessica, if you do another book about rejections, I have like a thousand I can share. So, you know, like everybody else, I'll have to get in line. Anyway, it was so nice to meet you all and congratulations. I really loved the book. It's so great and, you know, the perfect gift when anybody's feeling down too for anything to happen. Thanks for the bow. That saves Having paper. That's perfect. Okay. It was great to meet you all. Have a great day. Nice, Ben. Yeah. Okay. Take care. Bye. Thank you. Thank you again to Citizens of Humanity for sponsoring this episode and for donating all the proceeds of your long sleeve unisex t shirts that are available for getting vaxxed, the retail price is $34 to the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID-nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System. Go to citizensofhumanity.com,

[38:21]Zibby Owens: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.