Tung Nguyen, Katherine Manning, and Lyn Nguyen, MANGO & PEPPERCORNS

[1:36]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. I could not be more proud to announce today's sponsor and why they're sponsoring the podcast. Citizens of Humanity, which you may know as this amazing denim company, decided to do stay safe t shirts. They're available on Monday, May 3, and you can shop them exclusively on the Citizens of Humanity website, citizensofhumanity.com. A 100% of the retail selling price of every t shirt sold supports the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System, which I founded. I am over the moon grateful and excited that Citizens of Humanity is donating their proceeds of their Get Vaxxed shirts which are long sleeved unisex t shirts available in white or black and the retail price is $34 Go to Citizens of Humanity. Please go get one of these t shirts. And again, every t shirt sold supports vaccine research at Mount Sinai and the program that I founded to honor my late mother-in-law. Thank you Citizens of Humanity for choosing my charity to donate the proceeds to. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I am just so excited. So go check out Citizens of Humanity, the shirt, buy some jeans, go crazy, and just thank you. I interviewed Lynn Nguyen, who is one of the three co authors of an amazing book called Mango and A Memoir of Food, An Unlikely Family, and the American Dream. She co wrote it with Tung Nguyen, who's her mother, and Katherine Manning, who is also her mother in a way in that she raised her and lived with her her whole life and she considers her a mom. So the story is actually about her mom, Tung, and her mother figure, Katherine. And well, I'll let her tell you about it. So here's her bio. Katherine and Tung created an amazingly popular Vietnamese restaurant in Miami called Hai Vong. Katherine now manages Hai Vong's pop ups and catered events. Tung, who is Lin's mom, fled Vietnam almost fifty years ago and co founded Hai Vong, the restaurant, and currently cooks for select pop ups and catered events. Lin, who I actually spoke to, is Tung's daughter and earned degrees from Harvard and Cornell. And before that, she waited tables at Haibong. She's now the CEO and co founder of Liquid Analytics, an artificial intelligence innovation firm. And then by the way, Alyssa Ung is the ghostwriter of this book and is an award winning writer, book collaborator, and editor. She was a restaurant critic and dining columnist for northjersey.com and the Bergen Record in New Jersey and a staff writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer. So those are the women behind this book. And now I'm going to talk to Lynn, and you're going to see why this story is amazing. Welcome, Lynn. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Mango and Peppercorns, A Memoir of Food and Unlikely Family and the American Dream. Thank you for having me on. This is such an honor. As I was just mentioning with you, you co wrote this with your mother tongue. I probably won't pronounce it right. How do you pronounce your last name? Neduen?

[5:18]Tung Nguyen: We pronounce it Wein. It's like w e I n. Okay. Katherine Manning, who you call Kathy,

[5:25]Zibby Owens: yourself, and then with Alisa Ng, who it sounds like orchestrate helped orchestrate and do interviews and things like that. Correct? That's right. That's right. Yeah. Anyway, as I was reading it, as I said, I wasn't sure who I was interviewing, but I was just like so thrilled to talk to one of you from this book because what a story. Oh my gosh. I cannot even believe it. The things that happened with your mom. Why don't you start by, if you don't mind, telling listeners a little about what this book is sort of broadly about and then we'll dive into your family history and everything.

[5:57]Tung Nguyen: Sure, sure. So Mango and Popcorns, from my perspective, is really a story about my mother who is a Vietnamese refugee who came over during the Vietnam War and Kathy, who is an American who resettled her. And I think throughout the book, the most interesting thing is that they were really able to create a very unique family and community brought together by food. And I think that that transcends anybody's story because as we eat, especially during COVID, you find that food brings people together. It allows you to savor flavors. It allows you to have new experiences.

[6:38]Zibby Owens: And so mango and peppercorns really tells their story through food. I'm a pretty picky eater, I have to say, to the disappointment of my husband. But with all these recipes and descriptions of food, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to try all of these. I I always love when books include recipes because it just like adds another element of interest and everything. But before I read the book, when I flipped through it, I was like, Well, I don't know if I would eat this. And then after I read the book, was like, Okay, well now, after this flavorful description, I have to do it. But of course, the food in this book was sort of a means to an end, right? This is sort of, in fact, the means to an end of survival really for your mom and where she started. You know, there was one part of the book, and I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but she talked about how she never even thought about, like, being someone who lived in a big house and had this, that, the other thing. It was about survival. It was just about, like, getting through that day and what do they need to do to get through the day. Or maybe it was was it her mom who said that? Maybe it was your grandmother who said that. Do you remember what I'm talking about? Yeah. I do. And you know what? It's really my mom's perspective.

[7:46]Tung Nguyen: Like she's very much a survivalist and she's very much about putting one foot in front of the other. And even if today is a bad day, you're going to wake up tomorrow and you're going to just keep fighting. And if you think about like, I as an adult now have such a better appreciation of her, but I go to a grocery store in a foreign country and I can't figure my way through the aisles. I can't read the packages. And to think about her being dropped into The United States without any family, without knowing the language and then surviving and having a restaurant that people flock to, I think really speaks a lot to kind of her perseverance. And also, like she spoke through her food, like that was her way of communicating. And so I really, you know, I admire her resilience in terms of being able to like wake up each day and just fight for a new day.

[8:44]Zibby Owens: And it's also a story about running a business, right? This is also there's this element of how to make a business that depends on a creative product, right? Something that's a service to others. How do you continue to transform it, produce it, monetize it, and how she did that over and get pressed and do all these things. I mean, it's also like a a business primer, if you will, with her and Kathy, how they split ways at one point, how they came back together. Like, the whole story was fascinating. And even the fact that they fought all the time, and that was just like their way of communicating. And they're like, don't worry about it. And yet the restaurant became Hai Vong. Is did I pronounce that right? Hai Vong? Yes. You did. Okay. So Hai Vong became this like complete top of the restaurant charts Miami sort of institution despite barely having air conditioning and like them building their own walls and everything. It's amazing. It's really amazing story.

[9:40]Tung Nguyen: Well, you. Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun to write. And for me, originally many, many years ago, I said to my mom, I want to write a book. And originally it was really just a pet project for me because my mother would never share her stories with me. It was always too painful, too much to talk about. It was always about looking forward, right? We're here today. Where are we going tomorrow? And I, as an adult, really wanted to understand a lot more about her and her background and what she came from. And so that has been so much fun for me because I learned so much about her. I learned about my family. And so it's

[10:23]Zibby Owens: just been a great journey. And you said in the book, didn't even learn about your dad and exactly how that whole situation happened until you read it in the book. Is that true? That's crazy. That's true. Oh my gosh.

[10:37]Tung Nguyen: Yes. Yeah. That probably the biggest shock from the entire experience is finding out that who was my dad wasn't really who I thought it was. And a lot of those trips that we made to find him, so to speak, like veils of different agendas.

[11:00]Zibby Owens: Wow. I don't remember. Is your dad still alive? Do you know?

[11:06]Tung Nguyen: So I've never tried to reach out or find It's like a history that is kind of reimagined now, so to speak And and to be honest, a lot of people say, well, do you wish you did meet your dad or know about him? And I am so lucky that I was raised by Kathy and my mom and even Kathy's mother, who I consider my grandmother. And so I had a complete family unit in my eyes and in my perspective. And they raised me in their perspective, which is strong woman who is independent. So I never felt like I had a hole that needed to be filled. And I think I'm very lucky in that. So it hasn't been something that I've looked to do is find I honestly wouldn't even know how. Yeah,

[12:05]Zibby Owens: Not too much to go on there. Yeah. But no, I mean, that's another element of the story that was so interesting is how your mom and Kathy had this platonic lifelong cohabitation relationship where they co parented you. And yet, you know, Kathy writes in the book, you know, she just sort of decided to be celibate at one point and that and your mom had a series of different, you know, husbands or relationships and whatever. And yet it just worked. It worked for them and they like Kathy had you, like, strapped on her back in the restaurant. That's so cute. Oh my gosh. Wow. And then It's true. She's the one who, when you were, like, finishing high school suggested that you apply to Harvard, which by the way, when I read in the book, was like, why is she even suggesting that? And then the next page, she's like, and then I got in. I was like, what? Her guidance counselor was like, forget it. Don't even go to college or whatever. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's amazing.

[13:05]Tung Nguyen: Yeah. She's always been my champion and she's always been dream big, shoot for the stars, nothing can stop you. And I think that like my mom who is a very, very practical person, and then Kathy, who's this huge dreamer, they really balanced each other out. But yeah, Kathy's always been such a supporter. And I never She is in many ways my second mom, but growing up, I never thought of her like that. My mom was always my mom and Kathy was always like this fun aunt who I could talk to and would take me out. And that just really worked in terms of they knew their places in terms of their relationship to me, but also their relationship to each other. And I think it speaks a lot for Kathy in terms of how she always stood by my mom and yet let her grow and evolve and be her own person. You know, they're remarkable women. I'm not sure that I could do half of what they've done, but they're

[14:20]Zibby Owens: certainly great role models. Well, think part of it is what you said originally about your mom's whole outlook, which is something that I feel like all the whole wellness industry is trying to get people to do. Like like, think about where you are today. Like, be where your feet are. Look, you know, look focus now. Do you know what mean? And, like, that's sort of what she does and always seeing the bright side. There was this one passage at the beginning about her grandmother who your mom was super close to. I just wanna read this one passage. Remembering Ba Noi's voice kept me going. It always had. When I was three and stricken with smallpox, my parents were unable to afford medicine. It was Ba now is that how you pronounce it? Ba Noi? Ba Noi. Yeah. Ba Noi who laid me on the dirt floor of her hut and nursed me back to health. As I grew up, always following her around like a baby duck, she looked at my face full of smallpox scars not in horror as so many others did, but like I was the most beautiful person she had ever seen When we had only a few grains of rice to eat, Pha Noi taught me to thank God for salt. Rice was just rice, she told me. But if you have rice and salt, you have a meal. What an attitude. Like that is it's just amazing. It's

[15:31]Tung Nguyen: being thankful for every day and such little things. Like even my mom today, when we eat rice and rice, you can go to the store and buy at any time. That's one of the cheapest things to get. But even if there's a cup of rice leftover, she saves it. And it's because you just don't know where the next meal is going to come from. And that's growing up, a cup of rice was the most precious thing that they could have. But even with that and the poverty that she lived in, right? Like she lived in a one room hut. Like I went back to Vietnam and I happened to see a house that was very similar to what she grew up in. And it's probably the same size as her bedroom today. It's so tiny, dirt floor, and still she grew up so happy because they were always so thankful for what they had that day. And she would say that even when they were working long, long hours in the field, everybody would sing and tell jokes. And so it was really about embracing your community and just being thankful that you know what, you woke up this morning and you had a chance to fight for another day. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[19:45]Zibby Owens: I mean, that is such a great message. It's such a great message. And I wonder how sort of your mom's parenting of you because you make some mentions of it how, like, you didn't really wanna work in the restaurant so much and wanted to be with your friends. You're kind of embarrassed like every teenager is of their parents at some point. And, you know, you preferred spaghetti and meatballs or something to their food for a while because their attitude is so it's so amazing, but I feel like it's sort of counter to the way most Americans sort of well, maybe I shouldn't say I mean, such a mass generalization, but sort of the general sort of zeitgeist societal messaging in here. Right? I mean, it's just a little bit different. I mean, fact that, like, by age eight, she was doing, you know, farming and building a house for her parents soon after and all these things. And I'm like, I have an eight year old. Like, this is an almost eight year old. That is not what is happening around here. It's like, can I have a seltzer? And I'm like, oh my gosh, look what Tongue was doing. So tell me a little bit about that and sort of growing up, you as an American with an immigrant mother and how the differences sort of played out.

[20:54]Tung Nguyen: Yeah. So I would say the biggest thing that got instilled in me is hard work. Like you just are always working. And like a lot of people say, well, how can you run a business and then you come home and you have these other projects, but it's just this constant and I enjoy it, right? So it's like, you're always trying to better yourself. You're always trying to move yourself forward incrementally and you wake up and it could be reading a book and that's enjoyment, but it's not that you're just being lazy. Right? So it's very much of a hard work ethic. And also being like, so I own a business and it's ups and downs and it's not, and it's a roller coaster and you certainly don't plan life the way it happens. And you kind of roll with it and you say, okay, so how can I take what I have today and make it better tomorrow? And I think that that persistence and just that work ethic of showing up every day was really deeply, deeply instilled in me. Because even after I would be picked up from school when I was very, very little, I would go to the restaurant and I would help peel carrots or I would help set tables. And that's just what we did. And the funny thing is that's what we did as a family. Some families take vacations and my family work together. So it's all about how you as a family unit celebrate yourselves. It doesn't have to be like every other family. And I think that's another thing that got very deeply instilled in me. And I see it especially now as I'm developing more and more of my own friends is you don't have to be like everybody else. And it's okay. And it's actually really good to have your own path and make your own choices. And you don't have to your family doesn't have to look like the family next door and your job doesn't have to be like the neighbors or your colleagues. And sometimes that's hard because I'm sure everybody else compares myself to other people. And and being like, okay, this is me and I'm okay with that. I'm not the doctor, I'm not the lawyer. And I think especially today when people have so many opportunities with what they can make of their own lives and where their path can go, it's really important to have that inner strength to say, you know what, I can do what I choose and to stick with it and have that persistence to know that, you know what, it's gonna be okay even if today is not. And so I know you run a business, but like what, This is none of my business and you don't have to have

[23:59]Zibby Owens: your own family. Like, where do you live? Are you still do you spend a lot of time with your mom and Kathy still? Like, what's your what's the postscript on the book for you?

[24:09]Tung Nguyen: Yeah, sure. So I live in Boynton Beach, Florida right now. It's about an hour north of my parents. So it's close, but it's not too close. And really that was driven by the pandemic and traffic. So where they live, it's very congested and I wanted to be in a little bit of a more rural area. And I live with my boyfriend right now. And so we lived in New York and then with the pandemic last year, like many people, we kind of fled. So we bought a house in Boynton Beach where we could have a little bit more space. But before that, I was traveling about two weeks every month. So I was always on the go, and it actually enabled me to see my parents a bit more than I can now because when I would travel, I would always make sure to do like a stopover in between trips. But now because of COVID we're just being a bit careful. So I'm getting my second shot tomorrow. And so I'm hoping that we can see each other a little bit more, But I I've tried to be careful because of, you know, they're a little older. I get it. Yeah. Aw. That's so nice.

[25:29]Zibby Owens: Well, so now in addition to everything else, all of you guys are now authors. Right? I mean, just to add another feather in your cap, How does it do you think like, how is it having your story out there? I mean, I know it's just coming out, but like, how does it feel to take something so like that it's so such a part of you and having it be so public? And for them too, I would imagine like your mom thinks this is like such a trip. I mean, what is right? Yeah.

[25:58]Tung Nguyen: They're loving it for different reasons. So Kathy loves being able to tell her story and interact with other people and really have a chance to celebrate what they've worked for. For my mom, it's all been a bit of a head rush. Couldn't So first she couldn't believe that people would even find her story interesting enough to have a book. And even through that process, she didn't fully grasp that this was a book that was going to be published and read by other people. She just thought, Oh, Lynn's got this crazy idea and we're writing this thing and it's going to sit in her bookshelf or something like that. But then it's been published and we have had, we've been so fortunate to have had such good reviews and people have really been attracted to the book. And now it's that next phase of, I can't believe people actually like the book. And that's been wonderful for her. It's given her that additional confidence and that additional sort of like accolade that I really wanted her to experience because they worked so, so hard. Like the restaurant business is one of the hardest around and to do it for so many years and to love it for so many years and the community they built. Like, I'm just so happy that they're now getting that recognition

[27:33]Zibby Owens: and the accolades that I really wanted them to have. And by the way, what did happen to the restaurant this past year?

[27:40]Tung Nguyen: So we transitioned to doing pickups. And we scheduled the pickup and people can order ten days in advance. And it sells out in about two to three hours. And so we've been lucky. Our customers just kept following us and still coming to eat our food. But like many businesses, it's changed its shape, so to speak. We're doing the South Beach Wine and Food Festival, a private dinner coming up in May. And then Kathy and my mom actually want to do book tours. So they want to go go and to book festivals and do some special cooking classes and really just have fun with the whole experience.

[28:30]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. If they wanna come to New York and do a cooking demonstration in my house or something, I will invite like all these people. And I used to do author salons and everything here. Oh, wow. Like life is just starting to get back to normal. My kitchen is not such a huge I mean, it's like a normal anyway, I couldn't fit, like, a million people in the kitchen. It's not like a professional kitchen. But, anyway, if they wanna come to New York and do that as a stop, let me know because I would be so honored to have them cook here. Oh my gosh. So They would love it. They would love it. I I will let them know. Kidding. I mean, I mean that sincerely, so think about it. Okay. Good. That's amazing.

[29:06]Tung Nguyen: Because they love doing that. Oh, good. They love cooking for people and, you know, and feeding people. That's the biggest thing is feeding people. No, we could do like a whole talk and then a meal and oh my gosh, it would be so fun.

[29:18]Zibby Owens: Awesome. Okay. So what advice would you have to aspiring authors?

[29:22]Tung Nguyen: I would say to, so it took us many, many years to get this book off the ground, mainly because I had to convince my mom that it was something to do. And so there's two pieces of advice that I would have for authors. The first is use your network. We were fortunate that we had a friend who had published books and was able to introduce us to agents and publishers. So don't be afraid to ask your friends and who you don't know who's going to point you into a direction that turns into something. And then the other is, believe in your dream and don't give It's, you know, just because it doesn't happen tomorrow,

[30:04]Zibby Owens: that doesn't mean it's not gonna happen in a year or two years. So keep persistent in your dream. Love it. Well, Lynn, thank you. It was so nice to meet you. I'm so impressed by the story and the book and the whole thing. And, you know, bravo to all of you. And I hope that our paths cross and, you know, hopefully in my apartment.

[30:25]Tung Nguyen: Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much, Zippy. Alright. Congratulations.

[30:30]Zibby Owens: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thank you again to Citizens of Humanity for sponsoring this episode and for donating all the proceeds of your long sleeve unisex t shirts that are available for getting vaxxed, the retail price is $34 to the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System. Go to citizensofhumanity.com,

[31:08]Zibby Owens: and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.