Kelly Corrigan, HELLO WORLD

[1:33]Zibby Owens: But at that time, I was like going to the guy at Joe and the Juice behind the counter asking him to vote for me and anyone I could. So now I'm coming to all of you to ask you to please vote for moms don't have time to read books to win the People's Choice Webby Award for Best Live Podcast. If you go to vote.webbyawards.com, again, that's vote.webby, W E B B Y, webbyawards.com, And then go to the little magnifying glass search thing on the upper right. All you have to type in is search my name or entry and just type in moms and it will come up. And then you can click on the best live podcast recording nominee and vote for me. Also, by the way, I won honoree for best influencer, which is crazy. Anyway, thank you for voting. I really, really would appreciate it. I would love to win the People's Voice Award, especially after trying so hard and failing two years ago. So if you could just take a few minutes and vote, I would be so grateful. You could email me after if you want at infosibbyowens dot com. I will say thank you to you via email myself because I'm so grateful. So email me if you've done it, post about it. I'm just, I would be so grateful. Thank you. Hi, this is Zippy Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Time to Write, a new publication on Medium. And we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. It was such an honor to have Kelly Corrigan back on my podcast to discuss Hello World. Kelly was on my podcast about two years ago to discuss her last book and now we get to discuss her children's book. Kelly has been called the voice of her generation by O, the Oprah Magazine and the poet laureate of the ordinary by the Huffington Post. She's the author of the New York Times bestsellers Tell Me More, The Middle Place, Life and Glitter and Glue. Her podcast, Kelli Corrigan Wonders and her PBS show Tell Me More keep her busy enough to occasionally forget she's about to be an empty nester. She lives near Oakland, California. Hello World is her first but not her last book for children. And by the way, her book Hello World was published by Flamingo, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. And that is the imprint that is publishing my children's book, which is coming out in March 2022 called Princess Charming. So we'll like be book sisters or something like that. Anyway, I love talking to Kelly. I'm so impressed by her in every way and haven't stopped thinking about this interview. So enjoy. Welcome back, Kelly. Thank you so much for coming back to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to talk about your new children's book and all the new things you've been up to since we last spoke.

[4:40]Kelly Corrigan: Yeah. How long has it been? Two years? Three? About that. I know I was trying to look and see when that was. It was for Tell Me More. So it was it had have been two years ago. Yeah. But I got to sit in that beautiful room of yours. It was we were in person back in the old days. I know. That was so nice. You were right here. We're just breathing air all over each other.

[5:02]Zibby Owens: Yeah. No mask. I don't know. How reckless we were.

[5:06]Kelly Corrigan: Know. Doing.

[5:08]Zibby Owens: Well, you have been up to so much since then. Oh my gosh. You're, like, producing so much content and and so much else. But let's start with Hello World, which I'm super excited about. Tell me a little bit about how this picture book came to be, how you ended up with Flamingo, your illustrator,

[5:26]Kelly Corrigan: all of all the good stuff. There's this fun woman who I know, know, named Margaret, and she had done the fancy Nancy series over at Simon and Schuster, I think. And then she was moving to random house, which is where all my regular books are published. And she went to college with this great friend of mine named Chado. And Chado had mentioned her to me before and said, you know, oh my God, my friends like sort of a publishing powerhouse and she's read your books and you guys have kids the same age. And I think you'd get a big kick out of each other. So anyway, she said, I'm starting this new line of books. And I wondered if you would have a drink with me. And so I happened to be in New York. And so we had a drink, and then we had two drinks. And she said, you know, if you could say anything to high school graduates, just start there. Like, what would you say? And I said for a kid's book, and she said, trust me, like, just what what's the one piece of advice that you have? And I had just been talking to my daughter, Claire about this. And I was saying, you know, like, it's all about the people like you could be, you know, on a boat in Lake Como with the perfect drink in your hand. And if you're not with the right people, it's a disaster. And you could be like picking garbage off of the highway. And if you're with the right people, it's a blast. Like it's a it's the world class day. And then I had revised that thinking to something more specific, which was this discovery, this repeated discovery that's unfolded for me over and over, which is sometimes you think you're not with the right people, but it's your fault, because you haven't asked enough questions to really find out who you're talking to. And that actually, everybody has a story. And it is incumbent upon you to ask a few questions and see if you can get closer to who they are. And that in that way, you're always like three questions away from a world class conversation. And conversation is the foundation of connection and connection is the foundation of a great life. And so that's what Hello World became was this promise that if you believe as I do, and all social scientists do that meaningful connection to others is the number one driver of human happiness, then the only question worth asking is how do you get meaningful connection? And my answer is you ask questions, and you be the person who asks a slightly better question. I mean, I feel like everybody listening to this has had that horrifying experience of sitting at a dinner party, back in the old days when we did things like that. And thinking, guys, I asked the people next to me questions, they didn't ask me a single question. And thinking like how much was we left on the table there? How much we could have learned from each other? Had everybody there been curious and full of questions. And so that's really the whole thesis of Hello World is this kid, this little girl who's so cute, is taking off into the world. And I'm telling her, you're gonna see balconies and bridges and boulevards, but it's gonna be the people. They're gonna be people everywhere. And the most fun you could ever have is getting to know each one.

[8:32]Zibby Owens: I could not love that anymore. That is so I believe everything you said, like, a thousand percent, and I just love it. I know I sometimes when my kids go to school, I'm like, okay. Well, just ask people a few questions. Come home and tell me something you didn't know about somebody today. Like, make that your mission. Find something out. Like, don't just talk about yourself, you know, because I feel like it's something you need to learn early.

[8:56]Kelly Corrigan: Yes. And I think it's interesting to actually sometimes I think it's like a tactical problem. Like, I think that many people have the intent and then they get a little tongue tied or many people like believe it in an abstract way. Like, yes, of course, if, if you ask more questions, you're going to get into deeper conversations, and you're going to learn about set of the other thing, you know, sitting at lunch with this woman, and I didn't know where it was a birthday lunch. And I was doing it, you know, I was just starting to ask some questions. So how do you know how many kids are in your family growing up? Just me and my sister? Do you guys live close by Oh, yeah, as she Are you guys close? Pretty close. We're close kind of in a weird way. What do you mean by that? Well, I gave her one of my kidneys. And it was just like, okay, stop everything. I'm about to have like one of those million dollar conversations like tell me the story. And so and Edward came home recently and said, God, I did your stupid thing. Your stupid question thing. He had been at dinner, and he at first was like texting me under the table and saying, I'm dying here, I'll be home way earlier than I thought. And then something came up about Madagascar. And he just looked at the person next to him and said to this guy who he thought was just such a bore, have you ever been to that part of the world? Well, next thing know, the sky tells him that he was a prisoner of war for forty days in Madagascar. And it was like, Oh my god, you were sitting right next to me. We were inches apart. And we almost came and went and I almost went home and said to my wife, what a boar. Like you just don't know. And the thing in the book and hello world that's so fun is that I'm telling these kids like, you know, your bus driver has things to tell you. And the lady who puts your lunch on the tray, she's got stories too. Like that. It's everywhere. And it's everyone. And so back to that idea of like a tactical problem. Like, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a couple questions in your back pocket that are like, your go to questions, like a really seemingly dumb question that often leads me places is do you like your name? And people often have like a little funny story about their name, either they hate it, because they're named after somebody and that person was a very nice or and that's a story unto itself. Or it's it reminds them of somebody or they used to hate it, but now they've grown into it. And there's a bunch of questions on the inside of the book when you open it, like the end papers that are kind of glued down to the cover, have all these balloons on them. And I got to write up all these questions. And that was really fun for me. Like if you had a store, what would you sell? Like that sort of leads you places to like people's little dreams that they've nursed their whole lives about, oh, I always wanted to have a bookstore. I'm sure you did too. And but you know, like a craft store, or I always wanted to teach knitting, you know, if you could teach a class, what would your class be? You know, and, and I think people are so flattered to be asked, you know, and I think that that's the stuff of life. It's like that. And it's been proven like in social science, they say that like your network of weak, they call them weak connections, better like light connections are actually like a play a really big role in how you feel about your life. So you have like your super tight inner circle of two or three people. And then it's like the what people think of as community like when you're my live in a very small town in California, it feels kind of like a college campus where you're walking like when I go get a sandwich, I almost always run into somebody that I know in my little town. And those light connections are a big part of happiness, and well-being. And so the way to nurse those light connections or to sustain them is just to show a little interest, you know, ask a couple questions here and there while you're getting your sandwich. So another question I ask that I, that I kind of prefer to how are you is what are you working on this week, I feel like I just get a better I get into a better conversation faster. I feel like when you say how are you? It just almost goes nowhere reads like 99% gonna take you nowhere. And even for kids like my college kids, I for Georgia, I say, you know, you could just say to people like, what are you working on right now? And that is such a funny question because you just never know what you're going to get. Like, I remember asking that to someone and she said, I'm working on my marriage. What are you working on? And I was like, Well, let's go back to yours. That sounds a little more interesting. She's like, Yeah, I've been married for like twenty six years, and it's just not going that well. And it was like, God, thank God I asked that question, because you need to talk. So that's the thesis of Hello World. And I think it is like the perfect graduation gift for any graduate, you know, going to middle school, going to high school, going to college, graduating from college. Like, it's a way of life. It's a way of life to say I'm so interested in the people around me. I can, my dad did it. I mean, it's you know, that's his line. Hello, world. He's said every morning. And this is what he did is he, you know, the guy who was making a sandwich like he would just have this like world class little micro connection for three or four minutes. And then it was like, Joe, thanks a lot. You know, it's great to see you. I'll see you next week. And

[14:23]Zibby Owens: that stuff counts. It's not nothing. It's actually a lot. I love that. That was great. If there's any message that we need now more than ever, that is it. It's like more substantial

[14:36]Kelly Corrigan: even than like a sweet children's book in my mind because, like, I have a podcast called Kelly Corrigan Wonders and we just had George Saunders was the last guest we had and he wrote Lincoln in the Bardo and he's, you know, this huge big time writer, like one of the best living writers. He was talking about curiosity as a way of life, but also as a way of healing the nation. Because what he was saying is that for as he's developing characters, for fiction, he's constantly asking the characters questions in his mind. Like what else about you? So you're a gardener? What else about you? Oh, you're you have a twin sister. What else about you? Oh, you're a Trump supporter. What else about you? Your favorite class in high school was that one day that the psychology professor came. What else about you? And that in the discovery of people's more complicated story is the relaxing of judgment. Because the if you just know one thing about a person, it's fabulously easy to write them off. But as soon as you start learning five things about a person that don't necessarily agree, and that don't point you to the same conclusion, you know, like a farmer who likes art, but also is in a fight with his brother, and is a donor to like the Boys and Girls Club. And what's your favorite last book you read? Like, that's a really revealing. I mean, I could take you anywhere that conversation because people don't even know how much they're revealing about themselves when they talk about fiction, especially, you know, there's all their values are coming out. So I think it's both a wonderful way to go through life if you're a kid. And I think it's a really important way to go through life if you're a citizen in a democracy that's trying to, you know, find a way to work together, after many years of just giving each other the finger. Very true.

[16:44]Zibby Owens: That feeling too of that gem, right, when you ask the right question and you happen to get the answer, I feel like that sustains me every day. Like, I get so much joy from that. Like, there's nothing better. And then you see the way people light up if it's something, you know, exciting to them or they start crying when it's something really deep and meaningful and important. And it's just like, oh, we we can we connected now over this. Right? Like, now we are friends.

[17:09]Kelly Corrigan: That's right. Well, I think you're like three questions away from being friends with anybody. You know, like, remember the woman who was like the administrator of the girls elementary school. And, you know, we were she was looking something up and we were chatting while she was looking it up. And then it wasn't coming up easily. And so we chatted some more. And the next thing you know, she told me that she was waiting on biopsy results. And then she's like, I don't know why I just told you that. And I was like, that's okay, I've had cancer. She's like, you have? And I was like, yeah. And, and then I was like, the first person who knew that this woman, who everybody interfaced with, I mean, this woman was known by 1,000 people in my town, by necessity, had this like secret problem. And it was that reminder again, which you get that one over and over again, which is you just don't know what people are going through. You know, you see somebody at a party, and then you find out the next day, they're getting divorced. And it's like, but I just, but I just saw them. And I thought she was being so snotty. Meanwhile, you know, she has to like people are carrying things that are invisible to us. And being a person who asked questions might just let them put whatever they're carrying down from. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[20:33]Zibby Owens: Janet. This is so great. I wanna, like, write everything you're saying and, like, put it on my bulletin board. Like, you're you're literally articulating the things that I, like, think and feel all day long but never can say as well. And you are just have not even attempted to articulate in such a way. And the fact that you did it through the vehicle of a children's book, right, which is which can permeate sort of every layer of rigor. I

[20:55]Kelly Corrigan: think it's such a cute I mean, I remember talking to Margaret about Oh, the places you will go as like the ultimate graduation gift. And I said, I mean, not to quarrel with poor Doctor. Seuss, but and it's brilliant. And it's totally brilliant. And his language is incredible. And the whole thing. However, as a thesis, I actually don't like what that book says. I mean, I don't think anyone's reading it in this way. In this like, you know, needle nose way. But I don't think it's about the places you will go. I actually think it's about the people you will know, in every way in the totally cynical way. Like, it's all about the people, you know, that I think that's true. I mean, I think LinkedIn, etc, proves that that, you know, that for the rest of your life, you're going to be moving from one person's best friend's cousin to the next person's, oh, I met Zibby once and then she introduced me to so and so and I mean, that is how the world works. People are constantly expanding their network of contacts naturally. But the other thing is everything we've been talking about, which is like, if you want, if you're with someone, when they're dying, you will be crystal clear that everything else has fallen away. And the last thing is the people. And they're good. They're all their joy is in these relationships is in the giving and receiving of love. And so even with your most intimate relationships, still asking questions is the answer. Like with Edward with with my husband, I'm either talking or I'm asking questions. And what feels so much better for him is for me to ask questions. Because it's it's pre judgment, or it's almost in the place of judgment. So if he's telling me about a work thing, he's trying to close this huge contract. Now he's been working on it for like fourteen months. It's a total pain in the ass. And it's like a big slippery thing. And, you know, as you get closer and closer to actual illegal contract, then there's more and more people you gotta talk to. And like all those sort of short stroke stuff is so hard. I could either be like, I can't believe that that's ridiculous. Come on. I mean, much longer? Or I could be like, what do you think you're gonna do? What did Chris say? What did you know, Shahan say? Did you try? Are you going to? And that's so much better for him. And same with kids. Because it's very tell me more. It's very like, don't have an answer. And I'm not coming to judgment. It's more like I'm just so curious what this feels like for you. And what how you want to where you want to go from here. So like Claire's just going through the college process, way better to ask questions than to make statements. You know, how do you feel? Does that bother you? Are you happy? What do you want to do next? How do you think you'll make a decision? I mean, it's just all

[23:52]Zibby Owens: question marks are better than periods. That should be a T shirt. You should put that on a T shirt and start selling it, throw it up on your website. I'll take, like, point o o o o two percent of each T shirt. Okay. I'm I'm kidding. You probably have that T shirt made by tomorrow. You're, like, the most productive little woman. I could. I was actually just thinking. Know how I would do that, actually. Yeah. I'll send you the link. Okay. Send me the link. I want it. I will. I'll send you the link. I'm not even kidding. Oh, I know you're not. You're gonna, like, whip up a newsletter about question marks tomorrow. I mean, if I don't do it, then I forget, and then you move on to the next. Right. Right. You're like, you know, you understand. So, like, you're the same Yeah. Same DNA of sorts. Wow. Well, how can I just ask how you are allocating your time? How are you finding time when you deal with the children's book publicity and all that and then your show and your podcast and all the things you're doing? How are you how do you sort of

[24:53]Kelly Corrigan: tangle yourself out of that? Yeah, schedule? I mean, it's a lot of teamwork. So like on a podcast, so we do this weekly podcast, it's called Kelly Corrigan wonders. And it's, we ask one question over multiple weeks, or even sometimes up to a month. And then we get at it over the course of these different episodes. So right now we have big time writers talking about human nature. So it's Margaret Atwood and George Saunders, Britt Bennett, who wrote the vanishing half the brilliant Gia Tolentino, who wrote trick mirror. And I could talk to people. I mean, I could record five podcasts a day, like I can't get enough of it, because it's everything that we just talked about with Hello World, where you just ask one question, and that leads to the next and to the next. And my, my worst sin as a podcaster is that I record for an hour and a half. And then I hand this file off to poor Susan George, who's my producer, and she has to whittle it down. So she always says like, you know, do you think you could wrap it up in an hour? And it's like, I could, I could accept that I'm, I've got time with Margaret Atwood. Like, I don't want to wrap it up in an hour. I want to take like, as many minutes as she's going to give me like, this is a genius. Like, so the answer to your question is that the partnership around the podcast with Susan George is what makes it possible. So she's this friend of mine, and we were at lunch, and she said, you should do a podcast. And I was like, you know, I've thought about it before. And I really like podcasts. I love going for a walk and having a conversation in my ear, even more than I love music. And I love music a lot. And so I thought of it. But you know, as you know, I'm sure there are 2,100,000 podcasts. So it seemed like kind of ludicrous. But then we went over to PRX, which is kind of like NPR, and started talking to them. And those people are so smart and nice and full of information that they really helped us shape it and they help with the marketing. And so PRX deals with the whole business side of Kelly Corrigan wonders and Susan deals with the whole editing side. And so my job is to get guests and talk to them and that I would do, even if we didn't push record, like that is as much fun as I can have. So that that makes that almost entirely a joy. The only hard part about podcasting is marketing the podcast every week. I feel like I'm selling an episode every Tuesday. And then Susan reminds me like, don't think of it that way. Like, they're really good. Like people really like them and appreciate them. Like, you're just reminding them like, hey, we got one. And then the PBS show. So I did this, this three episode pilot on PBS last year, it's kind of like replacing Charlie Rose. And it's called Tell Me More with Kelly Gorgon. And it was great. We did Brian Stevenson, James Corden and Jennifer Garner. And it was so satisfying. Ultimately, it's really hard. Because PBS is a huge organization. And I didn't know what I was doing at all in terms of like, inching my way into this relationship and this contract. And, you know, I'm an entrepreneurial gal who can, I could sign a contract by the end of the day? And PBS is 100 year old media organization with 600 employees and a lot of lawyers. So everything felt like it was molasses to me. And I was discouraged by the pace. I was like, it's not going to happen. And in fact, part of my urgency around the podcast was this assumption that the PBS thing would fall apart. And so at least I would have the podcast. And I really didn't want to wait for PBS to start the to decide whether to do the podcast because I thought if you wait, there'll be 3,000,000 podcasts. And where will you be then like, how are you gonna, you know, carve out a little space. So it was kind of surprising to me that it happened. Then I thought the end product was so good, which has nothing to do with me. It's that when you make a show like the PBS thing, it's, it's almost like 90 percent is choosing the right guests. And then the, the, these two people who make the show, it's guy's name is Steve Goldblum. And he does brief, but spectacular, which is this little series on news hour every Thursday. It's like a little short interview segment that's really kind of zippy and creative and meaningful often. And then Melissa Williams, his partner and that they their production work on those episodes was so good, like the amount of B roll, like they found Jennifer Garner mentioned that her mom grew up really poor in Oklahoma. And that her mom had said to her this beautiful thing, which was Jennifer, no matter how far you go in life, it will never be as far as I've gone. Like she grew up just dirt, dirt, poor, hopelessly poor. And she made it to West Virginia. Respected member of her community. I asked Jen if she would ever chip she ever wanted her parents to move to LA. And she was like, Oh my god, no, I wouldn't take them away from West Virginia, like they're real contributors to our town. So anyway, they found pictures of Jennifer Garner's mom in Oklahoma, when she was five. Almost everything that came up in conversation, they found the sort of surrounding material to enrich it, like James Corden, talked a lot about carpal karate. They had to work so hard to get the rights to show the Paul McCartney Carpool Karaoke. But they did, and they didn't give up. And they got it. And it and it totally makes the episode because if you don't know, if you don't know what James and I are talking about, we're talking about carpal karaoke, and then you see this footage, all of a sudden you're in. But they also found footage of him like as a 14 year old in his first school play. And so that's another case where like teamwork wins because the editing of those was so important, like for pacing and the music they pick. And there's so many decisions, and I didn't have to get involved in that at all. And at first, I thought I would like hover over it like, Oh, I don't like that cut. Why don't you do this? Or why don't you cut back to him here? And then I was like a complete release. Like once I saw an edit, I was like, Oh, you don't need me. You don't need you don't need anybody like I'll see you at the Emmys like this is so this is so good. So anyway, then all this time since then, it's taken to get organized to do it again. And so we're doing 10 episodes this fall, and 10 episodes next spring. And hopefully, we'll just keep going from there. But that's as far into the future as I can see. But it'll be like a weekly show on PBS. It's kind of crazy.

[31:46]Zibby Owens: That's so cool. I just think the whole thing, all of the things you're doing, it's just so exciting. It's so great. And it's so great to have a voice like yours out in the world. I mean, this sort of sensitivity and emotional intelligence and the way you ask questions and it's just, it's great. It's I'm so excited that it's gonna happen.

[32:06]Kelly Corrigan: It's a wild ride. I mean, I think part of it is this manic desire to have a pretty full schedule when Claire leaves because only have two kids and George is already at college and Claire's going in August. And I'm, you know, miserable about this part ending. Don't want I'm not at all excited to not live with kids. Like I just like the energy. I like the conversational input. I mean, I wanted like four kids like I wanted real commotion. So I'm not into like a quiet home. Kelly, come on over here. Come. I mean, I swear to God, Edwards, like, you're gonna start around the clock. Yeah, I want to start a like a little preschool, where I have three kids every afternoon, and I just read them books. I feel like I need it. Like, I don't I need contact with these little people. It's so energizing.

[33:03]Zibby Owens: I think that would be fun. I mean Yeah. Well, I don't wanna take too much of your time up today, but I'm so excited about Hello World. And especially because my children's book is the same infant. And I'm so excited to be, like I know. In the same universe. That's so exciting. It's great. For me personally. But I just wanna ask one last question, which I know you've answered before, but any new advice on aspiring authors, particularly in the picture space, since that's the one that you've most recently accomplished?

[33:30]Kelly Corrigan: Well, you know, it's funny. I I like I like the words that I put together. And obviously, I'm, I'm a deep believer in the thesis of Hello World. But what makes a children's book awesome are the illustrations. So there's this woman, Stacey Ebert, Ebert, did the illustrations, and this is her first children's book, and it's almost laughable how important the look is. I mean, it's a it's a picture book. So every page, every spread, the look of the girl, the main girl, the little tiny details like there's so many funny little Easter eggs throughout Hello World. If once you've read it the fifth time, you know, if you're a little kid, there's just like little discoveries on every page for you. And I don't I mean, I felt very lucky to get her as an illustrator and to sort of direct all of her creative energy onto these pages. And I love what she came up with. Like, love the palette. I love the variety of images in terms of like wide angle, if you will, and then a single shot. I think it's really surprising page to page. Like as you turn it, you're like, Ah, look at this. And so I, I guess I would say that this sort of a critical thing is to have a point of view, like have something that you want to say. And then the next critical thing is to find a really awesome illustrator like Stacey Ebert, because that's when it comes alive. Like, that's what that's what makes it sing.

[35:07]Zibby Owens: Well, Kelly, thank you. Thanks for chatting this morning. Congratulations on your latest project. And I mean it. Come on over. And if you're on the East Coast and you want some commotion, come by at, you know, 07:15 any any weekday morning and I you will get your

[35:25]Kelly Corrigan: wanted to tell everybody that if you need a signed copy of Hello World, my local independent bookseller is Book Passage. And so if you do bookpassage.com/corrigan, you can buy copies and then just put in the notes. This one is to Jennifer, congratulations on your graduation, and then I'll sign it and get it back out to you. So they're sort of facilitating these personalized signed gift copies. So it's bookpassage.com/corrigan. And then you could get nice gifts for all the people in your life who are graduating this year. I'm going to go do that after this. Yeah, do do. That would be cool. I'd love to Awesome. Get your

[36:10]Zibby Owens: All right. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.

[37:52]Zibby Owens: Terms apply.