Megan Wagner Lloyd & Michelle Mee Nutter, ALLERGIC
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[2:08]Megan Wagner Lloyd and Michelle Me Nutter are the author-illustrator team behind allergic graphic novel.
[2:16]Megan is the author of several picture books, including paper mice, building books, finding wild, and a fourth building time.
[2:23]She lives in the Washington, D.C. area.
[2:25]Michelle Me Nutter graduated with a BFA in illustration from the Massachusetts College of Art and Design.
[2:30]Her work has been recognized by the Society of Illustrators, three-by-three illustration creative, quarterly, and warm.
[2:36]Michelle lives in Boston.
[2:38]Welcome to Megan and Michelle. I am so excited to have you both on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss allergic.
[2:46]Yeah, thank you so much.
[2:49]So we have Megan Wagner Lloyd and Michelle Me Nutter here.
[2:54]So let's start with Megan and I just want you to introduce yourself and then Michelle you go.
[2:59]So listeners can just hear whose voice is who as we're discussing this book.
[3:03]Okay, great. Yeah, I'm Megan Wagner Lloyd.
[3:06]I'm the author of allergic and I've also written four picture books that are out and I just love to write.
[3:14]And I'm always working on a new project and I have upcoming projects as well.
[3:20]I have a novel coming out next year.
[3:22]So I just I'm an author who's just totally obsessed with writing.
[3:26]That's the best kind of author there is.
[3:29]Wait, okay, you have to know that you've teased us.
[3:31]What is your novel that's coming out next year?
[3:33]It's called Haven, the Story of a Cat.
[3:36]It's a kids novel about a cat whose owner falls sick and the cat they live out in an isolated area.
[3:42]So the cat has to go out on an adventure to try to get help.
[3:45]Oh, I love it.
[3:47]Excellent. Amazing.
[3:49]Okay, Michelle, Michelle Me Nutter.
[3:51]Yes.
[3:52]So I'm the illustrator for allergic and I live in Boston with my four roommates and our own cat.
[3:58]And I really fell into this project and I was my first step into publishing.
[4:04]And since then I've done a picture book with America's test kitchen called Peyton picks the perfect pie.
[4:09]It isn't helpful.
[4:11]And I'm working on another picture book and two graphic novels as well.
[4:15]Wow, so so much.
[4:17]It's so much.
[4:18]That's great.
[4:18]Did you two know each other before this project or did you get paired up somehow?
[4:22]No, we got paired up.
[4:24]I actually went to a children's book writers and illustrator conference in LA.
[4:29]And that's where I met Megan's agent.
[4:31]And she loved my work and wanted to pair me up with Megan for allergic.
[4:36]and I remember being unsure if I wanted to take on a huge project like this because graphic novels are so much work.
[4:43]And she just sent me this ample chapters and she's like, just think about it.
[4:47]There's no pressure.
[4:48]I was on the plane ride home and I read it and the second the plane landed in Boston.
[4:52]I knew I had to be a part of it.
[4:54]I loved it so much.
[4:57]Yeah, it was so great.
[4:58]Lots of times with books then the illustrator and the author are paired like after the text has already been purchased.
[5:06]So like by the illustrator will be chosen by the publisher.
[5:09]But in this case, then my agent was like, oh, maybe let's try to like put something together beforehand, which is unusual.
[5:17]But I was like, yeah, like let's let's give it a try.
[5:20]It sounds fun.
[5:21]So I had only written part of the manuscript.
[5:23]And then we were kind of like looking at portfolios and thinking about it.
[5:27]But nothing was really clicking.
[5:29]And then she showed it to Michelle.
[5:31]And it was just like very serendipitous.
[5:35]We could end up working together.
[5:36]Joke around saying it's our cute me like it's a movie.
[5:42]Do you are you guys going to do any projects together in the future?
[5:45]Yes.
[5:46]We're actually working on a graphic novel right now together.
[5:49]That's not a sequel to allergic, but it is the same format.
[5:53]Middle grade readers, but not the same characters.
[5:57]No, no, I got very attached to these characters.
[6:00]I would like to see them back.
[6:01]So I actually don't usually do graphic novels on the show.
[6:04]I've only done a handful, but I am allergic to dogs and now have a dog and my kids are allergic to many things.
[6:12]And so this book and for some reason this book was sent to me multiple times.
[6:15]And I was like, it's a sign.
[6:16]Not that other people should send me books multiple times if you're listening.
[6:20]But I was just like this book is so up my alley.
[6:23]And of course now my kids can enjoy it as well.
[6:25]And it was really heartwarming in so many ways.
[6:28]I mean, it's not just about being allergic, which of course many kids struggle with.
[6:32]But the friendship piece and the kind of like, why did you drop me today?
[6:37]And when people aren't able to express their feelings and you just so captured.
[6:42]Why some of the what might be perceived as meanness of the middle school years
[6:46]is actually based on your own emotions and insecurity and issues and like the
[6:52]communication issues between girls and even the sibling relationships.
[6:56]There's so much in here.
[6:57]The new baby coming that scene where like the siblings together.
[7:02]Right now I'm going to forget all their names.
[7:04]Let me just just Maggie is holding one of her twin little brothers hands in the middle
[7:08]of the night is sad to sleep.
[7:10]Oh my gosh, that was so precious.
[7:12]So tell me a little more about the story and all the different facets of it
[7:17]and what inspired it and also which of you if either are allergic to anything?
[7:21]Or is that just a are either of you allergic to dogs or cats or anything?
[7:25]Or what?
[7:26]Take it away, Megan.
[7:27]This is your time to shine.
[7:29]That's right.
[7:30]So the story idea definitely came to me because I'm allergic to animals with
[7:36]four of our fathers and I also have a lot of other different allergies of all kinds
[7:41]but I thought I do really well, I kind of felt bad.
[7:46]I didn't want to give Maggie too much to deal with.
[7:48]So I was like, I'll just focus on the animal allergies.
[7:51]That's like enough.
[7:53]I also just felt like it could be a really good and like central thing to build the
[7:57]book around.
[7:58]I feel like almost all kids can either relate to like having a pet or really
[8:02]wanting a pet.
[8:03]It's just one of those almost universal childhood experiences.
[8:07]So yeah, first I mean, it's not like when I was growing up, I was like, wow, I should write
[8:12]a book about being allergic to animals.
[8:14]Like, I would never have thought that would be of interest to anyone.
[8:18]It seemed like something more negative or boring about me, something that was just like
[8:23]a pain in my life.
[8:24]And then when I started visiting schools in my picture books, then I like had a little
[8:31]Q&A at the beginning where I would like have facts about myself and kids could guess
[8:35]what the answer was just to get to know me a little bit.
[8:39]And one of the things I put in there was like, what kind of pet do I have.
[8:42]And then I'd be like, oh no, I don't have any because I'm allergic.
[8:45]And it was really interesting to me how fascinated kids were with this and then how many
[8:50]kids had some type of allergy.
[8:53]So that's kind of where I first got the idea that combined with seeing graphic novels,
[8:59]really taking off and just getting so interested in them and really wanting to write one.
[9:03]And I was like, wait a minute, this could really work for the graphic novel format.
[9:08]So that's where the allergy elements came from all the experiences Maggie has are like
[9:15]based on experiences I had or like the emotions I had with having allergies.
[9:20]But it's all just kind of rearranged and jumbled up from my real life.
[9:26]Like the setting, the characters, none of that is really like from my life and things
[9:30]are out of order like she gets allergy shots in the book.
[9:34]But you know, I didn't do that till I was like 30.
[9:37]So so I just took all that and kind of blended it up with fiction and created the story
[9:43]that way.
[9:44]And maybe Michelle, if you want to talk about some of the friendship elements.
[9:49]Yeah.
[9:50]Because that was the part that I really gravitated towards because I feel really fortunate
[9:54]that I don't have allergies.
[9:55]The only thing that I'm allergic to is like basic pollen and like seasonal allergies.
[9:59]But that was pretty much.
[10:00]much typical. But what I really resonated with was kind of feeling like an outcast and wanting
[10:05]to find up the perfect friend and wanting to try so hard to like make a space for yourself.
[10:12]And her dynamic with Claire really, you know, jumped out to me just from my own experience.
[10:17]So it was fun to draw those experiences and kind of put in a little bit of my own history
[10:22]of like my own feelings and my own experiences with friends growing up.
[10:27]Oh, well, it's so well done. And now as you guys were talking, I was thinking,
[10:32]and I'm not that you need more plans or anything. But this would also be really great in picture
[10:36]book format because, you know, my little guys, I have a six and seven year old who actually,
[10:41]that's not my six year old actually really likes graphic novels already. He's like a big dog man
[10:45]fan. It would also work so cute as a picture bug. Have you thought about adapting it to that
[10:51]as well? Or is it just one and done type of thing? I don't know. Have you? You should know.
[10:57]So this is a brand new idea. But it's like it's so cute. Even this cover, you know, just do
[11:03]the same thing. And just the few scenes and then like moms read it when they're having new baby
[11:07]and maybe like a mom in the back. Okay, I'll stop. I'll stop. Not that you needed to like the idea.
[11:13]I'm a big fan of more projects even though I probably shouldn't be, but I always love that idea.
[11:20]Well, it's so cute. And honestly, the characters like it's just so well done. The drawings are
[11:25]amazing. And the story is amazing. And like, literally I'm reading it in my husband's like,
[11:30]um, are you reading a comic book? And I was like, like, no, it's this amazing graphic novel. And
[11:36]it's so good. I like couldn't put it down. I read the whole thing like cover to cover in one
[11:39]sitting. So it was really good. And it's not just for kids. It's also a great reminder for
[11:44]parents of middle graders what it's like in case we forget which we don't often do. But,
[11:48]you know, if you need like just a great reminder, this is such a time and place moment that I
[11:55]thought was really great. I think that's what makes graphic novels so wonderful is that you can
[12:00]pick them up and read them in one sitting. And you can see so much of yourself and the people
[12:05]that you care about. And if you're a parent, you can see so much of your kids lives kind of like
[12:09]sprinkled in because it's true to their experience. And they really resonates with them. So you get
[12:14]to understand your children in a new way too. I also love this whole crazy family versus the
[12:19]quiet family. Which type of family did both of you grow up in? Mine was quiet.
[12:26]Yeah, mine was definitely the wild family. Because it was even even bigger than Maggie's.
[12:33]I have five brothers and sisters. So yeah, there's always something going on.
[12:39]And what number are you? I'm the third. And I'm the second. Okay. I just have a brother.
[12:44]Awesome. Yeah, I'm one of two, but I had four. So I've seen it both ways. And the quiet
[12:50]has next door always seems like a nice, nice, nice, nice, and so do the craziness.
[12:56]But let's go back to the allergy piece. Because that's also super interesting. Tell me a little
[13:00]bit about more about your own allergies and also what you've seen from all those kids in the,
[13:06]in the, you know, in those forums for your picture books. I've spent a lot of time researching
[13:10]allergies and thinking about it and having, you know, experiences myself and my kids. So tell me
[13:16]a little bit more about that piece and, and all of that. Yeah. So I'm allergic to the animals,
[13:22]to pollen, to dust, some other things. But I had like kind of unusual allergies growing up. I put
[13:32]that a bit in the book with Maggie having so many skin reactions. So I have like an unusual amount
[13:37]of skin reactions, even to like seasonal allergies. And so they couldn't really figure it out. So
[13:43]then we're like going to the dermatologist. So like it was clear with the animals, like an interact
[13:47]with animals, I would be allergic. But when I'm just like having these rashes during pollen season,
[13:52]it wasn't always clear like, oh, this is from pollen. So it was actually this big confusion to
[13:58]figure out for many years. And finally, really got like the right medication, the right,
[14:04]everything like in like my late twenties. So that was another reason I didn't want to like make
[14:09]it a memoir because I was like, I'm not going to have this character. I have to wait until the
[14:15]late twenties. I was like, I will give her the answers earlier. So yeah, it just kind of was always
[14:22]a struggle because they would just kind of randomly get worse different times. I think it would
[14:27]depend on like the age too as I grew up because I think allergies can be affected by like hormones
[14:33]and stuff. So yeah, it was just, it was just kind of a struggle. But I would say that definitely
[14:39]writing the book was cathartic in that way. And I do feel like I can't remember. I said this
[14:46]or some other interview or something like I like I played a trick on the universe. Like I took this
[14:51]thing that was always just like a pain in the neck and like made this like fun book out of it.
[14:57]And it's just kind of satisfying. I think that's a good place to start for people looking to
[15:02]write books. Like take the part of yourself that you're most annoyed at and like try to turn it
[15:06]into something else. And that's probably not a bad place to start. Yeah, definitely. And I just,
[15:12]I have kids. I have one of my kids, especially like inherited a lot of my allergies. And I saw
[15:19]you know, going through school, you see how allergies are like a lot more a part of kids lives than
[15:24]like even when I was growing up, you know, there's like the peanut free table that did not
[15:30]exist in like schools that I went to. And just kids in general see more aware of it. And I know,
[15:36]you know, allergies have been on the rise. There's different theories as to why. So it's just
[15:41]something that has always affected some people and seems to be affecting more and more people.
[15:46]And often in very different ways and at like different levels of severity. So that's why I wanted to
[15:52]include the character Sebastian that Maggie makes friends with because I wanted to show that
[15:59]there are these different challenges that it's not all a uniform experience. And you know,
[16:06]some things with allergies are harder than others. So I wanted to give just like a little bit of a
[16:12]window into how that is too with people with like serious food allergies. Because that's not
[16:17]something that I've experienced or that Maggie has. Yes, I've been in the ER multiple times with
[16:23]my kids for food allergies. And then I had allergy shots, but I started at age 12 or 13 and I had
[16:29]them for like three straight years. But now I feel like people don't do that. It's like, I feel like
[16:33]I should call my allergist and be like, wait, what about allergy shots? Like, maybe like, it's
[16:37]to be getting this, but they're not. I don't know. But it does seem like everybody has allergies
[16:42]to something. And it does make you really wonder about the environment more and what is it we're doing
[16:47]and like, was I too stressed when I was pregnant? Or like, what is it that causes it in all
[16:52]the different ways, right? Like, as you were saying, the different symptoms and how aggravating they are.
[16:56]I don't know. Do you from your position as sort of a sufferer and a parent of and even as it
[17:02]now an illustrator of do you find yourself drawn to some of the research or what we can do to prevent
[17:06]allergies or any sort of systemic approach to it? I never thought until this conversation
[17:12]until does this moment. I never thought that this was something that could be brought on
[17:17]like other than just like random acts of geneticism that like happens throughout.
[17:23]I feel like you're human body. I'm just like, oh, everybody has some form of allergy.
[17:27]It's just part of life. So I think now I'm going to go into like a Google wormhole
[17:33]and you look into it more. Let me know what you find.
[17:36]I got some much from illustrating because I never experienced this and I never thought to look
[17:43]into it and you know, that's shame on me for not educating myself more, but when I was researching
[17:48]and clicking all the links that Megan sent me for reference, it kind of opened up my world to
[17:53]like being more empathetic towards this process because I've never seen it.
[17:56]Yeah, I don't know as far as solutions. I mean, I know that climate change is supposed to
[18:03]potentially make allergies a lot worse because of like warming temperatures and then even like
[18:09]make indoor allergies worse for people because like increased rainfall and then like there's like
[18:14]more mold. And so there are, you know, still like obviously there's so much that needs to be done
[18:21]there. I don't know. I feel like there's all these things health wise with the immune system
[18:26]that need a lot more research. There's like a lot of autoimmune diseases and allergies and
[18:33]there's so much, I mean science is amazing and there's so much we've learned about health in even
[18:41]just like the last hundred years, but in some areas it seems like there's still so much farther
[18:46]we could go to figure it out. I did like look into a lot of the scientific aspects
[18:53]writing the book and then we had a scholastic had an allergist read it and get feedback as well
[19:00]to make sure we were being accurate, but then I'm not super great with like factor attention.
[19:06]So I forgot I'm a lot of the stuff, but I looked up and this is why I'm not a writer of nonfiction.
[19:17]Michelle, tell me a little bit about your process of illustrating this. How did you do this?
[19:20]There's so many drawings here and what like how did you do it all in the computer by hand?
[19:25]Tell me the whole process. Yeah, I learned every step of the way because I've never done anything
[19:32]on this scale before. Anything I'd done with small short stories like one or two pages of comics
[19:37]I never had to think about continuity with these characters through hundreds of pages.
[19:43]So what ended up happening was they started shifting over time and what I initially did to start
[19:48]was make character sketches, get the feel of the characters, and the family, and then once that was
[19:54]set, I stuck them up on my wall and then I started sketching on just regular,
[20:00]cuter paper and pencil and once I kind of finalized those sent them in for edits and then got notes and then I went to digital and that required using both my iPad and my cintiq it's this big tablet that you can draw on its magic it's wonderful and and just kind of it was like a layering process you.
[20:21]we're finding more and more and it's the same with writing where you have your rough draft in your outline and then you edit and then you flesh it out and then you edit again. So it's just the same just with drawing and I actually used a colorist for this process what there are two terms called a flatter and a colorist and I ended up using two flatters that basically fill in all the flat shapes of color so I don't have to do that tedious work because it takes a lot of time.
[20:50]but it's very common in the industry and it was a cool thing that I didn't really think that you know independent comic artists could use and utilize so that was a fun part of the process there was so much learning.
[21:02]but now look at that you're a graphic novel illustrator and you can like there you go on the road that's amazing and what about you Megan for the writing what was your process like well one of the longest parts for me was like getting from the initial idea to having a really firm plan for how the book was actually going to play out like I had the idea.
[21:23]but then I like wrote a few chapters and I was like how much do I make this like me and my experience should it be a memoir should it be fiction I was like I don't I don't even like writing memoir stuff why would I do that eventually but I just love fiction.
[21:41]but yeah that probably took me about a year from when I had the idea to when I was like okay I I figured out the characters the general setup you know how I'm going to make this book and then.
[21:55]I had written a couple chapters we had a plan was so incredibly lucky to be all the work with Michelle and then we like put together the whole pitch and sold it that way with some of her art and some of my writing already there.
[22:08]and then it sold really fast and it was so exciting and then I was like okay I got to like write the rest of the script and so Michelle can get drawing more and I definitely felt like a little like.
[22:22]like I can't believe like you know we're doing this I can't believe before trusting me to do this and because they don't need on smaller projects before and.
[22:34]But I was like well whatever I've been doing so far seems to be working so I'll just like proceed with that mindset but just like keep this rolling so then yeah it was.
[22:44]It was able to get the script written without too much trouble you know just going back and forth with my editor and then.
[22:52]But then because I don't picture books before where usually like you finished the text and then you know they buy it and then it's illustrated and you might make some changes like for sure.
[23:03]You know trimming things or rearranging things about and stuff, but in my experience then.
[23:09]A lot of changes so then I was kind of surprised like once we combined the like sketches and the text then our editor was like okay now this is like the new working document and with every round of the art process then we would you know.
[23:27]And so that ended up being a longer process than I expected, but I was really glad because it was just really fun to be involved like every stuff of the way and then also it just made everything be like so cohesive and.
[23:48]We were always able to get stuff where like me Michelle and our editor were all you know getting to the same page with everything.
[23:56]And so that was longer and different than I had expected going into it since it was my first project this way, but it was really great.
[24:04]It was a lot of fun it was so much fun.
[24:08]So two things for both of you what advice would you have to aspiring authors slash illustrators and also what would you say to parents who are dealing with their kids food allergies and then you can go.
[24:21]I guess I'll go for any aspiring illustrators just keep drawing at some point when we're kids everyone is an artist and everyone is encouraged to be creative and then I think at some point.
[24:33]We get a little bit embarrassed or shy about our work and we kind of put it up to this pedestal or it's like is this good or bad.
[24:41]And I think at a certain point people stop creating for fun.
[24:45]And if you just follow the passion and follow the the excitement and the creativity of it.
[24:51]You're going to unlocking pathways and the more you practice and the more you keep going, the better that you'll become and the better your eye will be and you'll just keep ascending going higher and higher.
[25:03]And so perseverance is key and be like Maggie and just persevere and try new things and for allergies.
[25:11]You don't know anything anything any advice I I just have empathy and a lot of love for the struggle that kids and their families go through with allergies.
[25:21]Yeah, for aspiring authors, I would say try to finish projects.
[25:27]I would say for most published authors they've made a lot of projects before they're published ones that were practice projects.
[25:35]So I think it can be you can get in a mindset where you're like always working on something but never finishing anything because you're like, Oh, I had a better idea.
[25:44]Or, oh, this project doesn't seem like that anymore and now I'll work on this new one.
[25:49]But I think you can learn so much by seeing a project through to the end and keeping like the face in it that whole time.
[25:56]Because I think part of the process is learning how to write better and part of the process is learning how to basically run a marathon of writing along project.
[26:06]It's learning how to continue to work on the same thing throughout the periods of discouragement and not giving up.
[26:14]So I would say just try to finish multiple projects and get those like build those writing muscles so that and every project's not going to work out and even after you're published every project isn't going to work out.
[26:26]But just keep working on it try to build really consistent habits and skills.
[26:32]And then for kids with allergies, I would just say that yeah, just I think that it does get better than when you first find out you can develop a consistent like routine of care.
[26:45]You can have like trusted adults who know what you need, you can see doctors who can help you have the medication you need or the treatment you need.
[26:55]And yeah, just don't be afraid to speak up and let other people know what is okay for you and not sometimes people can act kind of like skeptical about allergies.
[27:06]You know, even when you're a kid you've talked to your parents you've talked to your doctor, you know what you can do and what you can't do and you know if you can't eat a certain food or you know if going in like that house is going to make you sick because they have a cat.
[27:21]Whatever, so it can be hard, but I think you do need to learn to speak up for yourself because everyone doesn't always treat you like they believe you, but you understand what it is that you can do and not do and what is okay for your body.
[27:36]So I think really just learning to set those boundaries that are really essential for you.
[27:41]That's great. That's fantastic advice. Very good to remember.
[27:45]Well, thank you ladies. Thanks for talking about allergic. I loved it. It's so great for any parents or anyone who has.
[27:52]It's not even just if you have allergies. It's for the other kids. It's like if you're having a baby and you have a big fit. It's for everybody. This is because for everybody. So anyway, it was great. Congratulations and start working on the picture book version.
[28:04]You can just put me in the acknowledgements. That's all I need.
[28:08]Thank you so much for having us. This was a lot of fun. All right.
[28:12]Thank you. Thanks.
[28:14]Bye.
[28:15]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:19]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:24]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:31]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:35]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.