Alan Silberberg, MEET THE MATZAH
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Allen Silverberg is the author and illustrator of three Viking picture books, Meet the Latkes, Meet the Matza,
[0:46]and soon to be published Meet the Hamantachan.
[0:49]Allen's cartoon-filled novel, Milo, sticky notes, and brain freeze,
[0:54]won the SCBWI Sid Flashman Humor Award.
[0:57]The book was partially written and illustrated, while he was the James Thurber, children's author, and residents,
[1:02]living in the attic of Thurber's boyhood home in Columbus, Ohio.
[1:06]His other MG novels are Pond Scum, and the almost 100% true adventures of Matt and Craz.
[1:13]Maybe Craz, I don't know.
[1:14]C-R-A-Z.
[1:15]In a former life, Allen has written and created TV shows for Nickelodeon, Disney, and a bunch of companies not named until the checks clear.
[1:23]The only known person with a BA in cartoon communication education,
[1:28]Allen also has a master's of education from Harvard's Graduate School of Education.
[1:33]Allen moved, escaped perhaps to Montreal, and is happy to be there with his wife and Doug Zeus.
[1:39]Welcome, Allen. Thank you so much for coming on Moms. Don't have time to read books.
[1:44]It is a pleasure to be here in this new year.
[1:49]New things are happening.
[1:51]I don't know what to say about today.
[1:54]I know. We are recording this on the morning after the insurrection in the Capitol building.
[2:00]And so we're going to ignore our huge feelings about what's going on and talk about fantastic children's fix and humor and laughter and family and all the great things included in your books.
[2:15]Thank you.
[2:16]Will divert ourselves to that?
[2:18]Yes, let's divert.
[2:19]Yes.
[2:20]So, as you know, my kids are obsessed with your books.
[2:24]Well, your first book, but now, you know, the anticipation of the second book.
[2:27]Meet the Lachus. Tell us about Meet the Lachus. Tell us about Meet the Matsu and all the rest.
[2:32]I know you have other books and I will start with those two.
[2:35]Well, here's the thing. I am a Jewish man. I was raised Jewish.
[2:39]I never expected to be a Jewish book writer.
[2:43]But when I started to think about Hanukkah, all the kids books that I read to my kid were stettled books.
[2:51]I'm not saying there are other books out there, but Hanukkah to me became these dark kind of really cool books, but I wanted something light and silly.
[3:01]So, I came up with this idea based on a little holiday card I made using flash animation to send to my agent and my friends that, you know, was just a little Lachie family saying, you know,
[3:12]happy Hanukkah.
[3:14]And my agent finally said, you know, after getting it five years in a row said, why don't you turn that into a kid's book?
[3:20]And at first I was like, that's not me. I know.
[3:24]And then the more I thought about what I just said, which is why not have silly, funny way to look at Hanukkah.
[3:31]And so I started this book. No publisher.
[3:35]I will say on earth. I won't say in New York.
[3:38]No publisher wanted it because mostly.
[3:41]My first draft had it being about a Lachka family, having a Lachka party, which meant they were making Lachkas.
[3:49]So, all the editors were like, we can't publish a book about Lachies eating Lachies for Hanukkah.
[3:54]But there was one editor, Lila Sales at Viking, who said, you know, there's something really funny here.
[4:00]And if you work with me and if you'll just kind of be patient, I know we can find a book in this.
[4:05]And so, together we created a funny way to tell a story about Hanukkah through this absurd family, which I already had through the greeting card and through my first draft.
[4:18]And I realized that I could be like a little reverent. I grew up on Rocky and Bo and Cole and like a reverent humor to me works on many levels.
[4:28]I wanted adults to like this.
[4:30]And so, I wrote this meet the Lachka book and I had no idea it was going to take off.
[4:37]I was just thrilled that I was getting something into the world.
[4:41]And suddenly I became kind of the, as my publisher said, I tried pitching them new things.
[4:47]And I said, no, no, no, you're the funny Jewish book guy.
[4:50]And I'm like, oh, okay.
[4:53]So, I had no intention of doing a second book.
[4:57]And like to me, it was not a series. It was like done.
[5:01]But once they said to me, you're the funny holiday Jewish holiday guy.
[5:05]I started ruminating and pass over seemed like the next sort of holiday to do, but I had no idea for it.
[5:12]And one thing was clear.
[5:14]The format for me to Lachka is grandpa Lachka comes into the family.
[5:19]It's a family story.
[5:21]The grandfather tells a tall tale about, as he would say,
[5:26]Hanukkah.
[5:27]And it's up to the family dog to dispel his story and get the real story out.
[5:32]I didn't want to do another like, lots of family.
[5:35]And I had no idea what to do until it popped into my head.
[5:39]The name Alfie Coleman.
[5:42]And I was like, for anyone who's not Jewish listening to this, and I know you're there.
[5:47]In Passover, the holiday we're talking about, one of the rituals,
[5:52]and I'm sure as a kid, you hunted your home for the offy comment,
[5:56]is to take one of the ceremonial matsa, and you break it in half.
[6:01]And one half gets hidden.
[6:03]And later in the Seder, which is the meal, the kids go look for that.
[6:08]Anyway, I'd love to the idea of a character called Alfie Coleman.
[6:12]And once I had that idea in my head, I pitched them, the idea of making it a school story,
[6:18]where Alfie Coleman is a kid who loves to hide, and hides,
[6:25]it is his escape mechanism.
[6:27]And he's charged with telling the Passover story, but the school bully,
[6:33]who's also, everybody's bred at the school.
[6:36]So, loaf, the school bully takes over Alfie's story, and takes the class on this wild Passover story that Alfie gets to correct.
[6:47]So, I loved it.
[6:49]I loved it. The editors loved it.
[6:51]And it's coming out this spring.
[6:54]And I'm very excited about it.
[6:55]You were one of my first readers.
[6:57]Oh, I'm so excited.
[6:59]I loved it.
[7:00]I loved it.
[7:01]And it's different enough.
[7:03]It's the same sensibility, as you were saying.
[7:06]But different more jokes, more clever things hidden in there.
[7:10]A different story.
[7:12]I loved it.
[7:13]Well, humor is so important.
[7:15]And you have younger kids, my kid is all growing up, but you have younger kids.
[7:19]And you know, when you are laughing along with them telling it, reading a book,
[7:24]there's such a wonderful connection.
[7:26]And that's something that I always had with my son when we were,
[7:29]when he was growing up and we were reading books.
[7:31]Like, I like funny.
[7:33]I mean, I want a humor award for, you know, the My Little Book.
[7:37]So funny is kind of in here.
[7:39]And it's important.
[7:41]I totally feel it.
[7:43]And healing.
[7:44]Especially around holidays, which as you said, a lot of the picture books are very
[7:50]didactic and trying to teach you.
[7:53]And, you know, they're not history books per se, but they're not fun.
[7:57]And you're like, it's like, okay, so holidays coming.
[7:59]And so I go to like that section of my bookshelf, if they're actually organized
[8:02]and pulled down.
[8:03]And I'm like, all right, guys, now we're reading about this.
[8:06]And now finally, there are these new entrants that are bright and cheerful and clever.
[8:13]And it's just great.
[8:14]Not to say anything negative about the other ones.
[8:16]No, of course not.
[8:17]There's a place for all of those.
[8:18]All those books are really every book that talks about diverse holidays.
[8:23]In any way, I don't care how you do it.
[8:25]It's important.
[8:26]But it's nice to get some humor out in a storytelling way that kids can embrace.
[8:33]I love getting, and now that the book has been out, it's hard when you do a holiday book because you basically have
[8:38]a week of attention.
[8:40]And then it's like, so I've had three weeks of attention because it's been out for three holidays.
[8:45]So I'm now getting a lot of really positive feedback from like families.
[8:50]This is our family holiday book.
[8:52]Or parents write me and say, my fourth grader takes this book into the second grade and reads to them.
[8:59]And like, what is better?
[9:00]What is better for an author or whatever?
[9:02]What you have to do now is write one about Shabbat because then it's every week.
[9:07]Can I hold on?
[9:08]Seriously?
[9:09]No.
[9:10]Oh, I thought maybe you had it.
[9:11]You were going to talk.
[9:12]No, actually.
[9:13]But I am.
[9:14]I might as well say it.
[9:15]I am working on the third in the series, which will be out next spring, which is meet the hamantage.
[9:19]I have a poem story.
[9:21]Different totally different set up.
[9:23]It's three hamantage and detectives who have to solve the missing poem story and they go to a party.
[9:31]And they think everything is happening for real.
[9:33]But they have to piece together all the clues to create a poem story.
[9:38]Interesting.
[9:39]Yeah.
[9:40]Well, then maybe actually that you could do meet the hall.
[9:42]All right.
[9:43]We'll talk.
[9:44]We'll work.
[9:45]We'll work.
[9:47]But this is not all you do.
[9:49]You sent me your book at a very important, sad time for me about what was clearly your own experience.
[9:58]It's just a little great.
[10:00]which was so I have not stopped thinking about your own story.
[10:03]Tell listeners a little more about that book and how you channeled your own childhood loss of
[10:10]your mom into this beautiful middle grade novel.
[10:16]First of all, I know this has been a really tough forgetting COVID.
[10:22]I know it's been a very tough time for you and every time you post because your heart is
[10:26]like out there always, I just feel you and I think that's what inspired me.
[10:32]I wanted to write to you and just knowing that the book that I wrote called My Low Sticking
[10:37]Notes and Brain Freeze was like 10 years old or 8 years old, I just wanted to reach out to you
[10:42]and say, you know, moms don't have time to grieve and I get you, I get the pain that that is.
[10:50]So my background is basically in children's television and this is part of this leads to
[10:57]really. No, go for the beginning. How did you start from the beginning of your career here?
[11:02]So I worked in terms of television for years working for Nickelodeon and Disney and of all those
[11:08]folks and once I had a kid and we read my wife and I read to him constantly,
[11:16]the storytelling I was doing as my wife would say was mostly on the page of my scripts,
[11:21]like all the description in my scripts was so beautiful. She said, why don't you start thinking
[11:27]about writing a book and I had a kid and we loved reading and so I transitioned slowly into
[11:32]writing a middle grade novel and the first middle grade novel was called Ponscom and it did okay,
[11:39]but it was a funny book about transformation of the kid who's lonely in the woods and turns
[11:45]into animals he touches. Anyway, it published. I was now an author, time for my second book.
[11:52]What do I do? And I was having a very hard time coming up with an idea and around that time,
[11:58]Wimpy Kid had just really hit big and I am a cartoonist, I'm a doodler and a bookseller in Wellesley.
[12:08]Massachusetts said to me, why aren't you doing like a Wimpy Kid kind of like a funny book with
[12:13]cartoons in it and I'm like, yes, yes, that would be great. So I started a book about you know a
[12:21]middle school kind of geeky anxious kid named Milo who is the new kid. That's all I had in my
[12:30]head now. I did the first chapter and my story, my own personal story wasn't even on the horizon
[12:37]but I had to start thinking of what it was like being 12 and the more I had to access that part
[12:44]of me the more it wasn't like I had shut out my life but I had to really acknowledge my own past
[12:51]and my mom unfortunately died when I was nine of a brain tumor and it was one of those
[12:59]obviously very traumatic event of my life and happened very quickly and you know it is what
[13:08]it happened very quickly. So as I thought more about Milo I realized well if I'm telling what's
[13:16]in me anyway what if Milo had lost his mother and once I opened that door it was it was a flood
[13:24]I mean literally a floodgate of catharsism but pain but also with such a blessing I started writing
[13:35]things like the book became lyrical the book became poetic but what happened is I realized I could
[13:45]still keep the book being funny and it wasn't an intentional thing to say oh I'm going to make a
[13:52]funny book about death or grieving but I was a funny kid and if I'm telling my story everything
[13:59]that was coming out of me was very autobiographical even though the story you know veered away from
[14:06]some of the things that happened to me and it I just poured through this story of Milo coming to
[14:14]terms with the fog that is always around him and it was a healing life-changing process of
[14:24]creating art I don't know what else to say about it selling that book I was I think I believe in
[14:30]these things I it was I was blessed I was it was Kizmit Bashar the editor Lisa Abrams at Aladdin
[14:41]Simon and Shuster got it instantly and like wanted this book and no one else wanted but she got it
[14:48]and we connected on such a deep level to create this book I'm so proud of this book the book is
[14:54]amazing and not least of which you can tell that it's real emotion that's why when I didn't even
[15:02]know your backstory when I read it I was like oh my gosh this had to have happened to him like
[15:06]it's too real there's no way you could imagine and then that sort of the authenticity that comes
[15:13]through every page it's you know it's like your heart is out there as well you know the reader is
[15:18]just immediately bonded to you and you know Milo by association what happens in his journey and
[15:25]you know it's hard for kids that age to put their feelings into words right express and it's hard
[15:33]even as a parent sometimes to connect with your child who's going through something like that in
[15:38]their own liminal brain space right so having a book as like the it's like the translation vehicle
[15:45]it's like you know it's like you know Chevy Chase and like National Institute of Education
[15:51]I mean like had that translator on the plane like souffle means souffle you know it's like one of
[15:56]those old-fashioned machines were even type in a word and get something else so it's almost like
[16:00]that it's like the translator of grief and from childhood to adulthood the intermediary if you
[16:04]and that's a tough age because it's an age that often I think with grief and I grew up in a different
[16:10]time so grief for my parent my father was you're okay everything's fine and it really I see now
[16:22]kids who are have lost a parent in more recent years and the remaining the surviving parent
[16:27]is talking is looking at therapies looking at I don't know I'm not saying that across the board
[16:33]it's such a there's no one size fits all but it's certainly it's traumatic and when you have
[16:42]something traumatic happen it affects a kid and that could need something whether it's therapy or
[16:51]talk or love or understanding and that's what I hope to the book with them we're cartoon
[16:56]lockers well that's that's it and you know I I didn't even know this award existed the
[17:04]Society of Children's book writers and illustrators I got a phone call was like hi this is
[17:09]you know Lynn Oliver and Milo won the the Sid Flashman humor award this year at for a book about
[17:17]a mom's death to win the humor award was the big it like it was exactly what I wanted I wanted
[17:24]to use humor to really look at something so heartfelt and deep it's quite an honor it's well
[17:33]deserved honor and I I really think humor does have such a role in grief I mean it doesn't stop
[17:40]just be like the the huge sadness has to be tempered by the crazy absurdity of some of the moments
[17:46]and I think a lot of books by you know memoirs about grief for instance that I've been reading lately
[17:53]include all these absurd funny moments because you have to laugh right I mean even when my husband
[18:00]and you know the grief of his mom there were so many times he and his sister and I were like
[18:04]hysterically laughing within days after and then feeling bad it's like no no no this is part of it
[18:09]like all your emotions the range of emotions don't stop you still have the full gamut it's just
[18:14]different pieces sort of have highlights on them at different times so they don't stop they don't
[18:19]stop the rumble forever and it's a question I think of how you feel during those rumbles and if
[18:25]you giggle during a rumble that just means you're remembering something that's really sweet I think
[18:31]well I'm sorry that that happened to you in your life and the pain of that I feel awful for you
[18:37]and your family and I'm sorry that that happened so but I am glad that you turned it into a book
[18:44]that the rest of us can take when I when I do school visits or someone writes me and says you know
[18:50]I remember one particular right when the book came out a girl walked up to me a very
[18:55]shyly and quietly just like wouldn't look at me but said I lost my mom too and just to know that
[19:01]she was able to say that to me meant that she was able to talk about it and that the book
[19:08]touched her in a way that was part of my intention wow so going back to your career for two seconds
[19:15]so you finished Milo you win this award and then what happened then so I win this award and then
[19:21]the pressure's on for what's the next book and I didn't want to do anything for mostly heart
[19:30]which may have been a mistake you know like maybe I should have stayed with that you know push
[19:35]push those strings so I read a middle grade novel called the it's all they changed the title so
[19:42]the almost 100% true adventures of Matt and Kras which is the same vein of a book with cartoons
[19:51]all through it and it's the story of two best friends who are the school cartoonists but they
[19:57]want to be better and
[20:00]They find a way into getting a magic pen
[20:03]that turns everything they draw into reality.
[20:06]So their whole world is to be careful
[20:09]what you wish for story and their whole world
[20:11]gets turned upside down by themselves
[20:14]and they have to figure out how to fix it
[20:16]and save their friendship and save the school
[20:19]and the world.
[20:21]So it's just a silly book.
[20:22]And it's also filled with heartfelt things.
[20:25]There are parent problems, there are sibling problems,
[20:27]but it's a little bit more silly.
[20:29]And then that, you know, then I took a break
[20:32]to go back in a TV and then I went to the picture books,
[20:35]the piece I didn't say about the locker book,
[20:38]which was the first book of the picture books.
[20:40]Grief is tied into that as well
[20:42]because I lost my sister about six years ago.
[20:47]And it was at a point where I was doing another TV job
[20:50]and I won't lie and say that I will tell you I hated it
[20:54]and I was miserable and I was making okay money
[20:58]and I kept thinking I wanna do something for myself,
[21:02]I need to do something life is short, I can't do this.
[21:07]And with the support of my lovely wife,
[21:10]it's like, you know, it's life's too short, don't.
[21:13]I quit that job and like, you know, quit these jobs
[21:15]but I quit the job and poured myself into
[21:19]getting the locker book ready to try to sell it
[21:21]and great decision, but it came from wanting
[21:25]to give myself something.
[21:27]And giving everybody else again, it's like,
[21:30]well, it eats itself as it goes in a circle.
[21:34]Wow, so having done all these different types
[21:38]of writing from TV, cartoons, writing, and drawing.
[21:42]I mean, you're not just a writer, right?
[21:44]Like artistic expression, I would say.
[21:47]What advice would you have to somebody who's starting out
[21:50]perhaps or who's struggling to be a writer
[21:53]who wants to tell a story or can't find their way in
[21:55]or any of them, who would you say?
[21:57]Well, first of all, finding your way in,
[21:59]that's a great way to put it, it's that tough way
[22:02]to get in, getting in is hard.
[22:04]And I think I would always say to anybody,
[22:08]it sounds a little pat, but don't give up,
[22:10]don't give up, believe in, believe in what you're trying
[22:13]to do and keep reaching out to other people
[22:17]and keep looking for openings and keep getting used
[22:21]to the word no because you're gonna get a lot of no's.
[22:24]And I say this to the third graders, it only takes one yes.
[22:28]And I believe in talent and I believe in storytelling
[22:33]and I believe it's not magical.
[22:35]I don't believe there's like a way to get published
[22:38]or a way to get a job, but I do believe
[22:41]if you believe in yourself.
[22:43]Yeah, so I'll have to work at it.
[22:44]There's not like things happen because I want it to happen.
[22:48]I do believe a little of that,
[22:49]but you also have to kick at the doors
[22:52]and reach out to people and I hate the word network,
[22:56]but no people talk to people, believe in yourself.
[23:00]I really believe to believe in yourself.
[23:03]Very good advice.
[23:04]Plus now these should be,
[23:06]you should do a whole like TV series on Jewish holidays
[23:10]from this point of view.
[23:11]Are you working on that?
[23:12]For me, you should say that.
[23:14]I'm working on it, I am trying to,
[23:18]I'm working with the people who you want,
[23:20]and works with agents and producers.
[23:23]I want meet the lock as to be the first,
[23:26]I did a whole PowerPoint presentation
[23:28]for when I pitched this in Los Angeles.
[23:30]There has never been a Hanukkah animated special.
[23:34]There are tons of Hanukkah episodes and Hanukkah
[23:38]mentions in other shows,
[23:39]but there has never been a standalone Hanukkah animated TV show.
[23:46]And we are trying desperately.
[23:48]It's hard because as much as people want to be diverse
[23:52]and inclusive, they always pull out the,
[23:56]well, how many people are actually Jewish
[23:58]and who would actually watch this?
[23:59]So the percentage is actually,
[24:01]and my feeling is it is time with all of these outlets.
[24:05]It is time for diverse stories,
[24:08]diverse television, diverse media.
[24:11]And yes, I am trying to, thank you for saying that.
[24:15]I am trying to do that because,
[24:16]and I have some connections.
[24:18]And I've met with some pretty big people
[24:20]and they're really into it until they have to go,
[24:22]well, the business model doesn't really support.
[24:25]And I get that, so I'm trying, I'm working.
[24:28]Well, I think it can't just,
[24:29]I don't think it should just be,
[24:31]I'm sorry, I just keep like forcing my views on people,
[24:33]but it would be, I don't think it should just be Hanukkah.
[24:36]It should be all through the year
[24:38]because, as you know, with every holiday, we sit down
[24:42]and we all try to find a good show
[24:43]and, you know, Hanukkah time across, you know,
[24:46]and I'm like, the only ones we found,
[24:49]by the way, are Sesame Street
[24:51]because they do have a whole series.
[24:53]And they, and sometimes we've even had to watch
[24:56]the Sesame Street in Israel once.
[24:58]Rock of shim, shim, what it's gonna,
[25:01]I forget that.
[25:01]Yes, it has some sort of name.
[25:03]And I'm like, I can't, and they were DVDs
[25:05]and I used to show them to my older kids.
[25:06]And I was like, no, no, we have to watch,
[25:08]like, looking for the offy comment,
[25:10]but don't worry, half of it is actually in Hebrew,
[25:12]but whatever, you know, it's a funny song.
[25:15]So yes, it's time.
[25:16]And, you know, there have certainly been TV shows
[25:19]for smaller groups of people.
[25:20]I mean, come on.
[25:21]Anyway, it's, it is what it is.
[25:23]And I'm, I'm working on that.
[25:25]I'm also working, I'm working with a producer
[25:28]in Los Angeles returning Milo
[25:30]and we're trying to sell Milo as an animated series.
[25:34]Not just about grief, but a funny way to look at anxiety
[25:38]and social emotional issues,
[25:41]but through the character of Milo.
[25:44]We'll say lots of fun stuff in the art industry.
[25:47]I can't do one thing.
[25:48]I get bored.
[25:49]I get bored.
[25:50]I understand that.
[25:51]I know.
[25:52]Am I talking to you?
[25:53]Yeah, I understand that.
[25:54]You're like, well, it was great talking to you,
[25:56]especially today.
[25:57]And I am so excited for all that's coming
[26:01]and to have a hard copy of Meet the Monsters this spring.
[26:04]And, you know, you could almost even hide the book.
[26:07]Oh, oh, oh, I forgot to show you somebody
[26:09]for the holidays sent me a notch on my eyes.
[26:12]Those are amazing.
[26:13]So I'm pitching now that all books should come
[26:16]with matching masks at least for the next year.
[26:18]Oh, I like it.
[26:19]Just a thought.
[26:20]I get a little pouch to put the book in.
[26:23]Ooh, set of the mods so you can just,
[26:25]you have a mods of pouch and then you could like hide
[26:27]the actual book.
[26:28]Okay, we'll talk it offline.
[26:30]Okay, okay, okay, I'll stop.
[26:32]I just want to thank you.
[26:32]City, I want to thank you.
[26:34]We kind of found each other through connections
[26:37]of friends and stuff.
[26:38]And I just really appreciate you.
[26:40]I'd love how hard you work and how dedicated you are
[26:43]to caring about people and caring about books
[26:46]and caring about yourself and your family.
[26:48]Oh, thank you.
[26:50]It's really nice.
[26:51]Well, I'm glad our pads have crossed.
[26:53]I am too.
[26:54]And COVID ruined it, but I still will come to your house
[26:58]at some point and we will make lockers.
[27:00]I would love it anytime.
[27:01]Once the, you know, once the gate open invitation.
[27:04]Okay, all right, have a great day, Ellen.
[27:08]Thanks, Zippy.
[27:09]Bye.
[27:10]Bye.
[27:11]Thanks for listening to this episode
[27:13]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:15]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zippy Owens
[27:18]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:21]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[27:23]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:25]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:27]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[27:30]for the Sound Editing.
[27:31]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:33]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.