Kayleen Schaefer, BUT YOU'RE STILL SO YOUNG
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]K-Lean Shaffer is the author of But You're Still So Young, How 30 Some Things Are Redefining Adulted.
[0:45]K-Lean is a journalist and also author of Text Me When You Get Home,
[0:49]which was widely praised as witty, timely, nimble, central, and more by outlets such as L,
[0:54]Washington Post, New York Times, NPR Buzzfeed, and many others.
[0:59]She also wrote the best-selling Kindle, single memoir called Fade Out.
[1:03]Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, Vogue, and many other
[1:08]publications. She currently lives in New York City.
[1:10]Welcome, K-Lean. Thank you so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[1:14]Hi, Zibi. Thank you for having me.
[1:16]It's my pleasure. I know that we're here to talk about your latest book,
[1:20]but you have also written Text Me When You Get Home about female friendship,
[1:24]and your latest book is about But You're Still So Young, About 30 Some Things.
[1:28]But I just finished reading Fade Out about your search for your brother,
[1:33]and now I'm obsessed with that story, so we have to talk about that too.
[1:36]Yes, of course. That's, I mean, that hasn't been brought up in a while. I wrote that in 2016, I think.
[1:43]It's so good. Well, can we start by talking about that? And then we'll get into your next book.
[1:48]So it's a Kindle single, which I had never actually even heard of before,
[1:53]because I don't have a Kindle. So that's interesting, but it was a very short,
[1:57]almost like in novella about your brother and his disappearance, and how close he used to be,
[2:02]and your search for him, and Jared Lido, and I mean, it was really great. So just tell me a little
[2:08]bit about that, and then I kind of want maybe you shouldn't say that. I want to know how things
[2:12]are with him now, and what happened after this story. So, well, a Kindle single, I don't even know
[2:18]if they do them anymore, to be honest. I'm not sure. But it was this format where writers could go,
[2:24]like you said, like novella length. So longer than a magazine feature story, but not a whole book.
[2:30]And I had been missing my brother at that point. I think he had been gone for about three years,
[2:37]two or three years. And I wanted to go look for him, but I also, I wanted a structure to do it
[2:47]within. Also, if that makes sense, you know, like I knew I wanted to write about this
[2:54]in the context of my own story and something that I was doing. And it was the longest thing I'd
[2:58]ever written at the time. And so I knew he was in Mexico, but we didn't know where in Mexico. And so
[3:04]that was the first hurdle. And then we got it narrowed down in Mazellan because my mom had been in
[3:10]communication with him some. And then we ended up hiring a private detective to help us. And she
[3:17]did. And the whole story, like it was the first thing I'd really ever tried to write without
[3:23]knowing how it would go. And you know, at first, as you read in the book, he didn't go very well.
[3:29]And my brother was not happy. We came to find him and didn't want to see us. But I mean, it's
[3:34]old. So it's blowing me any. But you know, at the end, he was glad we had come that didn't mean
[3:41]that he was going to come back to the States. But, you know, there was a reconnection. And I was
[3:47]really glad that we had made that trip and had that reconnection. Do you talk to him now? Or is he
[3:52]still there? Yeah, we talked, but it's sporadic. You know, it's definitely not. It was really close.
[4:00]We still live together as adults. And so it's sporadic. And he's around. And, you know, I,
[4:06]I would love to hear from Evan. He would love to hear from me. But it's not immediate relationship.
[4:11]Or not. It's not, you know, I don't hear from him every day or even every week. But yeah, that
[4:16]story was my first experience at just trying to do something personal, but also report about it
[4:24]and write about it, which is what I also ended up doing then with. But you're still so young. Like,
[4:30]I ended up interviewing, like, eight people in their 30s throughout a year, a year class actually,
[4:37]and didn't know what was going to happen in their lives. You know, I just like took a shot that
[4:43]something would get started happening. It was sort of like, okay, all right. Yes, this is happening.
[4:50]These people's lives are changing. And you incorporated your own life too, which is great. So you
[4:55]almost like it was like, it was like a memoir with the scissors, like cut out little passages. And then
[5:01]everybody else's life as you as you guys all unfolded together. Yeah, exactly. I mean, my life
[5:07]was a little bit of a cheat because that stuff had mostly happened to me not much was written in
[5:12]real time. Some of it is the ending is for sure, because I continued to write and report during
[5:17]this pandemic that we're still in. But yeah, with the with the people I follow, it's really
[5:22]dropping into their lives and seeing, okay, what's going to happen to you over this year and when
[5:27]you're in your 30s. And so what are some of your main takeaways from life and life in your 30s?
[5:33]Like, how especially having analyzed this decade so thoroughly? Well, when I started the book,
[5:40]I started at the end of my 30s and I thought, oh, gosh, I didn't do in my 30s what I thought I
[5:46]would do. You know, I don't have this adulthood that I envisioned from my parents on adulthood
[5:52]and from like TV shows, like say, growing pains was huge when I was growing up. But I wasn't
[5:57]unhappy with this. I thought like, oh, I really learned a lot and I, the milestones that I did
[6:02]accomplish were the ones that seemed right for me when I did them. And I'm glad I had to struggle
[6:07]with achieving them. And I feel like that was true for a ton of other people in their 30s,
[6:13]but you also get this definition of adulthood that has been around since the 1950s and that many
[6:20]people just think like, well, that's what everyone else is doing. And even though I knew it wasn't
[6:25]true, you sort of just butt up against that stereotype the whole time, right? So it's the five
[6:30]things that sociologists say make you an adult are completing school, leaving home, becoming financially
[6:37]independent, marrying, and having a child. And like 75% of people used to do that before age 30,
[6:44]like 30 to zero. And I mean, I know that's not happening today for sure. But the stats also
[6:51]bear that out. And the 2016 census, only 24% of people had done that by age 34. So, but you still,
[6:59]you see those stats, but there's still this like this frame and this idea that no, until you do those
[7:04]five things, you're not an adult. And so I set out to find a talk to people who hadn't done those
[7:09]things, but who were clearly adults. And we're working to figure out which of those milestones they
[7:14]wanted, which ones they wanted to reject, which ones they were struggling with and might not get.
[7:19]So I just wanted to look at what was really happening instead of just this, you know, framework that
[7:25]we have that is clearly there needs to be a different model, but there hasn't been a new definition
[7:31]you had a quote in the book you said, it feels wrong to admit I'm still working on it. I don't
[7:36]know if this is right. I thought it would be different. I can't do this. And I totally relate to that.
[7:42]It's like everybody has these preconceived notions. And it's okay to be like, oh, well,
[7:48]you know, life is not nothing all makes sense. I feel like you're 40s or what I thought my 30s
[7:53]would be. I felt like when I got to my 30s, I would be like, it would be smooth sailing. And it's
[7:58]like, this is great, you know, and that is not what 30s were like for most of my friends in me,
[8:04]I would say. You were interesting because I was in my 20s when the idea of like emerging
[8:12]adulthood and the core life crisis really became popular. And it seemed almost like this
[8:18]permission slip. Like, okay, you're allowed in your 20s. You could totally find yourself.
[8:23]You can like go live in New Zealand for six months. You can sleep on a living room floor
[8:28]for, you know, three months. You can have a job for two days and then decide like, I don't want
[8:33]to stop anymore. It was this permission to try all these different selves and really dig down to
[8:38]who you were and what you wanted. But for some reason, like, we seem to say then when you hit 30,
[8:44]you can't do that anymore. Like there's this like arbitrary age 30 deadline that's in a lot of our
[8:50]heads. And you know, it's but if you think about it, it's just crazy to think like you can go
[8:56]from being 29 more. It's like, okay, definitely you have freedom trying these things, figure yourself
[9:01]out. And then you get 30. And it's like, wait, I'm just supposed to like snap to everything.
[9:06]But there is this feeling that that's the way that it's supposed to be.
[9:10]This is just one of those things that like, I feel like I want to go back and tell people.
[9:14]I know, right. But they're not actually going to listen to me.
[9:17]To like, yeah, I wouldn't like, I, I'll be like, yeah, okay, uh-huh, right.
[9:23]Right. But I wanted to tell people. So I know you and you spent a whole book on it. And I
[9:28]hope it wasn't to you. A big part of it was I wanted to be like, you're down alone. Like,
[9:34]you think that everyone else is just checking off these things in a nice orderly fashion
[9:40]and knows exactly what they want and who they are. And it's super happy. And we are all dealing
[9:46]with a lot of uncertainty, especially now, especially this year. Yep. I mean, the amount of
[9:51]people I know in my 40s who have made major life changes is really high. Divorce, new careers,
[9:59]you know, I feel.
[10:00]Like some of my friends are now getting to a stage
[10:02]where their kids are a little bit older
[10:04]and they can try new things.
[10:06]I don't know if you found this with your sort of group
[10:08]of people too, but I don't know.
[10:10]I just feel like the 30s wasn't as,
[10:13]I don't know, there's just a lot of change.
[10:15]Even pandemic aside, I just feel like the 40s are,
[10:19]I don't know, the most, the time of risk-taking.
[10:23]I feel like people are like, well, if not now, when?
[10:25]There's like a little bit closer to the mortality.
[10:28]Most people have had someone they've lost.
[10:31]I mean, they have lost someone, I don't know.
[10:33]I do think in every decade,
[10:35]you can find this sense of you're not finished.
[10:39]You thought that when you arrived at X age,
[10:42]you would be finished, but we're not ever touched.
[10:47]Like, there's this sense of like,
[10:50]I think especially in your 30s of,
[10:52]when will I have arrived?
[10:54]When will I know how my story ends?
[10:56]Like, when do I have everything settled?
[10:59]And the disheartening it, true answer is never,
[11:04]but it's also, I do think that there's a lot of,
[11:08]a lot of optimism too, in this idea that we're not settled
[11:12]because if you look at that 50s model,
[11:13]which most people did follow,
[11:15]they did set their lives out,
[11:17]and they were settled by the time they were 30.
[11:20]And so they didn't really have any choices,
[11:23]which that takes away a lot of the anxiety
[11:25]of having all these choices and being like,
[11:27]did I make the wrong one?
[11:28]Cause I could always make another choice.
[11:29]You know, I could always switch careers.
[11:31]I could always,
[11:32]I could always decide to have kids.
[11:34]But I think that there is beauty in having these choices
[11:38]because you do get to pick what you want for yourself.
[11:42]And your life is open in a way that I think is more enriching
[11:47]than if we're all just putting one mold
[11:49]and one way of living and told that that's how we have to do it.
[11:52]Yes.
[11:53]I mean, back then people had like a job.
[11:55]Yeah.
[11:56]For years.
[11:57]Right. And that was it.
[11:57]You would like have that job.
[11:59]So some of the other day said something about my kids,
[12:01]like what do you think they're gonna be when they grow up?
[12:03]Or can you, I can't wait till we find out.
[12:05]And I'm like, it's not like that.
[12:07]Like they're gonna have 57 jobs.
[12:09]I mean, maybe they'll have one job for their lives possible.
[12:11]But like I feel like I just switched up.
[12:14]Like everybody can switch.
[12:16]There's never like, oh, she grew up to be a podcaster.
[12:18]Like, you know, that's not it.
[12:22]The podcast was exactly, I mean, who is?
[12:26]What do you think kids are gonna do?
[12:27]And it's, but I think what we know for sure is that it's,
[12:30]it's gonna change.
[12:31]Like, and then I think is the beauty of it.
[12:34]So yes, I'm with you.
[12:35]I mean, I, you know, when there are so many choices,
[12:37]I'm often like, well, let me change this and like,
[12:39]let me try this and maybe I could do it a little better.
[12:42]And so I'm with you on the anxiety front.
[12:44]But at the same time, I feel like how many of those women
[12:47]were at home being housewives miserable, perhaps in the 1950s.
[12:51]And like had no way out, you know,
[12:52]they just needed a podcast mic and they wouldn't have been fine.
[12:57]No, I'm kidding.
[12:59]Anyway, it's super interesting as the topic
[13:01]which birds all the exploration that you did.
[13:03]I love it.
[13:04]Yeah, it's a tricky thing writing about a decade of life
[13:09]because like you said, it's different for everyone.
[13:13]Everyone's gonna experience their own life.
[13:15]It's unique to them.
[13:16]And so I really struggled a lot with like,
[13:19]I know that this is happening to some people in their 30s
[13:22]and I think to a lot of people in their 30s.
[13:24]But it's a very hard thing to, you know,
[13:27]try to make a sweeping statement about a decade of life.
[13:31]But I think that's the way,
[13:32]that's why I wanted to choose real people to focus on
[13:36]and to follow.
[13:37]And so I could drill it down to their specific stories.
[13:40]But in their stories, you can also extrapolate
[13:43]things that are happening in society now.
[13:45]Like the birth rate is at its lowest
[13:47]or at its lowest in 35 years.
[13:50]Marriage rates are decreasing.
[13:52]You know, our financial stability,
[13:54]a lot of school debt in that now we've been hit by two,
[13:58]once in a lifetime were sessions,
[14:00]the 2008 recession and then the current recession
[14:03]because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
[14:05]And then a lot of the most common living situation
[14:09]for people 18 to 34 is with their parents,
[14:12]which is the first time that's ever happened.
[14:14]And it was happening before the pandemic,
[14:15]but the pandemic has only exacerbated that.
[14:18]But it is really interesting that switch
[14:20]and just the way the way that you can still be an adult
[14:24]and live in your parents house.
[14:26]Like there's nothing inherently wrong with staying there
[14:28]to save money or staying there
[14:29]because the cost of living is crazy in the city
[14:32]that they happen to live in,
[14:33]but you also want to be in.
[14:35]And so I just think there's this new way
[14:38]of looking at adulthood that's not the traditional way,
[14:42]but that is the traditional way now for a lot of people.
[14:46]I know my husband's like,
[14:46]well, when my little guy, when he goes to college,
[14:50]we can stay in LA all the time.
[14:53]And I'm like, we'll probably be living
[14:55]with all the older kids still.
[14:57]I feel the added college and they'll probably be back home.
[15:01]You might.
[15:02]I think it might even get more popular.
[15:04]I was really shocked because at the beginning,
[15:07]I was just trying to figure out how big is this?
[15:11]How much of a delay is this?
[15:13]And many of the experts that I talk to said,
[15:16]like they don't even think that the average age of like,
[15:19]first marriage of having kids has hit its highest yet
[15:22]and that it will continue to increase
[15:24]and that this won't be a delay soon.
[15:26]It'll just be looked at as normal course of life.
[15:28]And so I do think there's a little more room
[15:30]in all of these shifts that they're only gonna get,
[15:33]they're gonna get pushed in more popular.
[15:35]And I just, I don't think we're going back to when people
[15:39]moved out of their parents house and we're married
[15:41]and had a house and had kids
[15:43]at age 22.
[15:45]I also, I've talked to some people younger like early 30s
[15:49]and they're like, yeah, nobody wants to get married anymore.
[15:52]Everyone just lives together.
[15:53]I'm like, what?
[15:54]Like, yeah, it's like not a thing.
[15:56]Like, people just are not sure they're gonna get married.
[15:59]Like, huh, okay, interesting.
[16:01]Have you heard that too?
[16:02]Yeah, they do surveys about what makes you an adult.
[16:06]And like, what do you think will make you an adult?
[16:09]And being married is always very low on the list.
[16:12]Like, always, financial independence,
[16:14]a stable career, those things always, always outrank
[16:18]getting married with this age group now.
[16:21]What does it interesting?
[16:21]Because this is a shift primarily caused by women.
[16:25]Like, I think that men also are want to delay
[16:29]and obviously that age of marriage for men
[16:32]is a little bit older, the attitude of first marriage.
[16:34]I think it's 29 for men and 27 for women
[16:37]at my 28 for women.
[16:38]But the shift is primarily caused by women
[16:41]of waiting later because, you know,
[16:44]women didn't used to be able to start her life
[16:46]before she was married, which, I mean,
[16:49]even though when I say that it's sort of wild,
[16:51]that that's in our current history,
[16:53]but it really is.
[16:54]You know, you had to get married
[16:55]and then maybe you could have a job
[16:57]and then you could have kids, you know,
[16:58]and then you would have a house.
[16:59]Like, for women, marriage is always the first step
[17:02]to achieving any of these other markers of adulthood.
[17:05]Like, some of them couldn't even leave their parents home
[17:07]before they got married.
[17:09]And so that broadening has broadened a lot of other things too.
[17:13]Well, I'm happy to be alive now and to be right.
[17:19]Tell me a little bit more about writing.
[17:21]Like, do you like to write,
[17:22]are you like an everyday writer still?
[17:25]Do you like to always be working on something
[17:27]or do you like more journalism,
[17:29]which I feel like your book was much more sort of journalistic?
[17:32]Or what do you, like, where are you now with writing?
[17:35]I do like to write every day.
[17:37]and I have an infant.
[17:39]So I used to like writing.
[17:41]First thing when I got up, you know,
[17:43]I stumbled to the coffee maker,
[17:45]make coffee and sit down on my computer.
[17:47]And right, because that was the time of day
[17:49]when my brain was still foggy enough
[17:50]that I wouldn't overthink what I was doing
[17:52]and wouldn't be like, this is terrible.
[17:54]Can't even believe you think you're a writer.
[17:56]So my sleepy brain like overrode like confidence cutting.
[18:00]But now I have these 10 months old.
[18:03]And so that morning writing,
[18:05]I just, I'm trying to get back to it.
[18:08]But I would be like up at 6 a.m.
[18:10]and then he would wake up too
[18:11]or like, are we doing it in the dark?
[18:13]Like, I was just like, this is untenable.
[18:15]Like, I just can't do it anymore.
[18:18]So now I have to try it to write when he naps.
[18:20]You know, I thought you could go the daycare,
[18:22]but in the pandemic, he just hasn't.
[18:25]So now it's sort of writing when I can.
[18:28]Which it's nice to have restrictions on it.
[18:31]Like, I know, okay, he'll probably sleep for an hour.
[18:33]Like, I mean, I can write for an hour.
[18:35]And that's nice because I've heard a lot of moms say this
[18:38]before I became a mom,
[18:38]but you really like drill down to the essential.
[18:41]Like, you can't, you know, score around anymore.
[18:43]Like, you know, I can start this in 20 minutes
[18:45]or whatever.
[18:46]It's a you have only 20 minutes.
[18:48]So that I think has been helpful in me continuing to write.
[18:51]It's just just having these very short first
[18:54]in which I can write.
[18:55]But I also like, I do a lot of writing
[18:57]in the front seat of the car.
[18:58]Well, my boyfriend drives and the baby sleeps in the back,
[19:01]you know, so I sort of do it whenever I can as needed
[19:04]or what I'm feeling like I have something
[19:07]that I need to get down.
[19:08]So nobody must have met your baby.
[19:10]I mean, he must have been like in the pandemic
[19:12]this whole time.
[19:13]Is that right?
[19:14]Like his whole life has been probably at home.
[19:16]Correct.
[19:17]Which I was really thinking that I was going to be great
[19:21]with this.
[19:21]It takes a village method of raising a kid.
[19:24]And I was very excited about that, you know,
[19:26]all my friends, my family.
[19:29]And it's mostly just spend my boyfriend and me.
[19:32]And I really hope that that doesn't last forever
[19:35]and it won't obviously.
[19:37]But yeah, I had to really shift that mindset.
[19:41]So, well, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[19:46]Hmm, I mean, I have a ton of advice for aspiring authors,
[19:51]but I would also, it took me a while to find my voice.
[19:56]I read about this in text me a little bit.
[19:59]But.
[20:00]I always was pretty like, I want to be literary
[20:03]and I want men to like what I read
[20:05]and I want to be serious and I'm writing
[20:08]for this like imagined male like the cover of literature
[20:13]whoever it was, you know, like whoever Richard Ford's
[20:15]readers were, well, that's what I wanted to.
[20:17]But that's not me and that's not my voice.
[20:20]And so when I actually like found my voice,
[20:24]which happened a lot with Feta and a lot with text me,
[20:29]you know, I was just I was writing as me
[20:31]and I didn't have in mind of being high-minded or serious
[20:35]or literary and so I didn't think to any writer,
[20:39]don't try to be what you think you should.
[20:43]As hard as it is, like just try and be who you are
[20:46]on the paper and people will like that.
[20:48]Like you might think they will.
[20:49]Like I had my doubts, like if anyone
[20:52]gonna like these stories that I want to write,
[20:54]but they will and you're the fact that you're being genuine
[20:58]and authentic comes across so much better
[21:01]than if you're trying to just be what you think other people
[21:06]want to read or what might sell or anything market driven.
[21:10]Totally agree with that.
[21:12]When I was growing up, my mom was used to say,
[21:14]well, just be yourself and I was like, who even is that?
[21:16]Why is that, that is the worst advice ever.
[21:18]I like don't even know who I am at all.
[21:21]But turns out that's like the key to everything.
[21:23]Well, yeah, actually one of the characters in my book,
[21:26]he had a lot of relationships and the one he has settled
[21:30]into, he just decided to be himself and we were talking
[21:35]and he said, you know, like, I was like,
[21:37]just be myself and then he was like, no, it's gonna like that.
[21:39]No one's gonna want that.
[21:40]But this woman did, she does.
[21:42]And now he is himself and he is comfortable
[21:44]in this relationship, which is, I mean,
[21:47]it really applies across the board as everything.
[21:50]Just try to know your core and what you value
[21:54]and you're gonna be great.
[21:56]Yep, so simple.
[21:57]Yeah.
[22:00]Well, thank you so much for this conversation.
[22:03]That was so fun.
[22:03]Thanks for coming on my show and for all of your books.
[22:06]Thank you for having me.
[22:07]Thank you for reading.
[22:08]It was lovely to talk to you.
[22:10]You too.
[22:11]Well, hopefully we'll meet in person sometime.
[22:12]Yes, certainly.
[22:14]Okay, I love your baby.
[22:15]Bye.
[22:16]Thank you.
[22:16]Bye.
[22:18]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[22:21]to Read Books.
[22:22]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[22:24]at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:27]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[22:30]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:31]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:34]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact,
[22:36]texture sound for the sound editing.
[22:38]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:40]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.