Patricia Engel, INFINITE COUNTRY
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[0:37]Patricia Engel is the author of The Vanes of the Ocean, Winner of the Dayton Literary Peace Prize.
[0:43]It's not love, it's just Paris, Winner of an International Latino Book Award,
[0:47]and Vita, a finalist for the Pen, Hemingway, and Young Lion's Fiction Awards,
[0:51]New York Times Notable Book, and Winner of Columbia's National Book Award,
[0:55]The Premium Bibliotheca de Narativa Columbiana.
[0:59]And this book that we're talking about today is called Infinite Country.
[1:02]She is a recipient of fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation,
[1:05]and the National Endowment for the Arts. Her stories appear in the best American short stories,
[1:10]the best American mystery stories, the Oh Henry Prize stories, and elsewhere.
[1:13]Born to Columbian Parents, Patricia teaches creative writing at the University of Miami.
[1:18]Welcome, Patricia, thank you so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[1:22]Thank you so much for having me and the fan of your show.
[1:24]Ah, I'm so glad to hear that, thank you.
[1:27]Okay, Infinite Country, tell me about this book. Can you tell listeners what it's about?
[1:32]And then I'd love to hear what inspired you to write it.
[1:35]Infinite Country is the story of a Colombian family, fractured by immigration and deportation,
[1:42]over 20 years, so years beginning at the end of the 1990s, and it follows this family
[1:48]through the turn of the millennium, and all the changing times, 9-11,
[1:54]the war on terror, just the war on terror, and what that brought in terms of change in the immigration
[2:01]system, and then the onset of the Trump presidency. And then this family, as they grow, it starts with
[2:07]just following just a young couple, they have a baby, and then another child and another child.
[2:12]And it follows what happens to them as they're split up by deportation,
[2:16]and all the complications that immigration brings to a mixed immigration status family.
[2:23]And you're a Colombian descent yourself, correct?
[2:27]Yeah, my parents are both Colombian and I'm a dual citizen.
[2:30]Were you born here?
[2:32]I was born here.
[2:33]And they, were they, can I even ask about their journey to coming?
[2:36]Do they live in the United States? Obviously, you were born here.
[2:39]Yeah, parents live in the United States. They came to the United States at different times,
[2:43]and they actually met in the United States, and then got married in Colombia and then came
[2:48]back here to just start a new life with my brother and me.
[2:52]Well, and do they?
[2:53]I'm not to keep talking about your parents. But in the book, there's the grandmother figure
[2:58]with the, what do you call, Lavandria, or who is firmly entrenched in her Colombian roots and
[3:04]doesn't want to leave and doesn't even want to leave her house. Do you have a relative who's still
[3:08]in Colombia or was this all your imagination?
[3:11]Well, so infinite country is largely set in Bogota, the capital of Colombia, which is also
[3:16]my mother's hometown. My mother left her entire family to come to the United States. However,
[3:22]my mother's parents died. Her mother died before. I was born in her father died when I was a baby.
[3:27]So I never knew my mother's parents really. My father's family, my father's from Medellin,
[3:32]another beautiful city. They, most of them, his immediate family came to the United States.
[3:38]So I knew my paternal grandmother, and I was very close to her. She was a mother of nine
[3:43]children. Oh, my gosh. And she was also the first writer in my family. So it's really from
[3:51]her that I understood what it's like to be someone who feels the need to write, who has stories
[3:57]to tell. So she is similar in being this, you know, wonderfully huge maternal force to the
[4:07]grandmother, character in infinite country. But she's also very different in that she left her
[4:12]homeland. She left her parents to come to the United States. And of course, infinite country
[4:18]follows two only children, Maro and Elena, and how they come together to form their own family,
[4:24]with their own children. And I come from a very, very huge Colombian clan.
[4:31]No, it's funny. I just interviewed a woman who has a book coming in at a similar time,
[4:35]if not the same day. Her name's Lauren Fox and her book is in for me. And it was about the Holocaust.
[4:40]But it was the same thing. And a woman and her baby and her husband had to leave and leave
[4:47]behind their mother. And then she was back there. It's the same longing, but set in the Holocaust.
[4:53]But it's so the same. It's almost like things are not necessarily changing. They're just
[4:58]picking up and moving in different reasons and different political climates. But that sense of
[5:03]having to leave your the loss of leaving a loved one or leaving a family, it's still just,
[5:09]it's just so ever present even today. Yeah, that's one of the things that infinite country
[5:14]explores, which is how it is a completely natural impulse to want to find a better life for your
[5:21]family, to provide a better future for your children. And it's really how the human race has
[5:27]survived for so long is by constantly moving and migrating and seeking more resources. And it's a
[5:35]natural instinct. However, politics and society and all sorts of prejudices have kind of trained
[5:43]people to look at it as something negative that this need for movements or this need for survival
[5:50]or just ensuring more security for your family is somehow something to look down upon,
[5:55]something to criticize. And it's really not like you just explained. Diaspora is, you know,
[6:01]the world's condition. That's how the world as we know it came to be. I just left my little guy
[6:07]upstairs watching like he's doing homeschool and remote school, I should say, watching videos of
[6:13]like jaguars and kept him here. So they like that. And it's like the same thing, right? It's the
[6:18]animal instinct as well. It's like all of human nature. They're moving. They don't want to be
[6:22]in prison. Like I mean, the zoo, they like just like people. I mean, everybody, all creatures
[6:29]want to get up on higher ground essentially. Yeah. And it's funny, we'll watch hours and
[6:34]documentaries about animals and the magic of migration. We just know where to go, you know,
[6:41]finds water or food and, and yet when humans have the same sort of need and impulse and drive,
[6:50]we think, oh, what are they doing? It's, you know, and it's, and it's a totally different mindset.
[6:56]I wonder if the animals are also sad and missing where they came from because another very human
[7:03]and perhaps creatures, pan creature phenomenon is, is also the sense of a longing for home, right?
[7:11]So it's on the one hand you want to achieve and find better circumstances. But you also, people
[7:17]long to have like a home base. And I don't know. It's like dueling concerns. I wonder if, you know,
[7:23]Mr. Jaguar upstairs on the video, it's like longing for his mama jack or something. This is like a
[7:29]ridiculous conversation. I'm sorry, but it's, it's just so prevalent, I guess.
[7:34]I think there's definitely something to it. There's things that are just in our DNA, our connections
[7:40]to our, our points of origin, our homelands, the landscapes that made our people, the, our ancestors,
[7:48]the ones who came before us. So I think we do feel that sometimes, you know, a lot of people like
[7:53]to go back to, to their ancestors' homelands and, and they feel even if they've never been there
[7:58]in immediate connection. And I don't think that's imagined. I think that's from some place deep
[8:03]within us that we don't even know how to describe yet scientifically. And a lot of things
[8:09]were passed through the body from trauma, scientists have come to study this through Holocaust
[8:14]survivors. Like you mentioned, there's a lot of studies done on how trauma has been passed
[8:18]from Holocaust survivors to their descendants. And the same thing, the connections to a homelands
[8:24]and lost homelands that you've been forced to leave. I think that also exists somewhere within us.
[8:31]Absolutely. And I am someone who, I can't go to summer camp without feeling homesick,
[8:35]do you know what I mean? Like, I'm away from my home for a weekend. And I'm like, oh.
[8:40]And so I found myself actually rooting for them to go back a few times, especially like when
[8:45]the second baby came and the scene that you mentioned earlier, the 9-11 scene where she can't even
[8:51]get Maro's attention because I'm probably not pronouncing it right because he's so busy stressing
[8:55]out about where they actually gonna live after having gotten booted out of all these different
[8:59]temporary situations. And she's sitting there wondering, you know, am I hallucinating? Like, is this
[9:04]actually happening? Is it both part of like, where are we gonna go? And I'm like, maybe they
[9:10]should go back. You know, maybe they wouldn't be better off if they went home. But, you know,
[9:14]they don't. They just forge on. Forge ahead. That's a question that follows a lot of immigrants
[9:20]through their whole life. A lot of people have this idea that when you make the decision to leave
[9:25]one place and begin a life and another, that the decision is made. And, you know, here you are,
[9:30]and life just moves forward. But it's really different in my experience being the daughter of
[9:34]immigrants and all the immigrants in my community that I've grown up around. There's so much doubt
[9:39]involved. There's so much wondering if you made the right decision. There's so much wondering,
[9:45]wow, it's so tough here. Why don't we just go home where everybody knows us? And where, you know,
[9:51]people love us, where everything that we know is and everything is familiar and not strange and
[9:57]we speak the language. So, it's full.
[10:00]of wondering if you made the right decision because it's a huge decision. When people immigrate,
[10:06]they're essentially rupturing their family history and breaking ties for the future generations.
[10:13]And it can be very painful. And you often wonder if you made a mistake. And often there's this
[10:19]parallel life that continues in the place that you left behind because that place is not going
[10:25]anywhere. It's still there. And in a way, it's always kind of calling you to come back.
[10:31]And there's a place to go back to. Of course, it's often at the price of the life that you
[10:37]made in this new country. So that's it's very often the dilemma of people who have made that
[10:43]decision to move from one country to another. Wow. Yeah, it would be interesting actually to
[10:49]have a book where not that your book wasn't interesting. Your book was very interesting.
[10:53]Obviously, so thought provoking that it's like raising all these other questions. But to see a
[10:58]family and have like narrative plot lines, right, where if they stayed, this is what happens. And
[11:04]then if they left and immigrated, this is what happens. And how their stories unfold differently.
[11:09]Like, I don't know, that'd be neat. If you know, for your next book. Sort of like lighting doors.
[11:16]Yeah. So the doors immigration version or something. Yeah. Well, tell me about your writing that's
[11:21]so interesting that your grandmother was a writer and that you feel that sort of in your DNA.
[11:25]Also, tell me about when you knew you were a writer and how you got started on this journey.
[11:31]Not just with writing, but also for publication. I think I was writing as soon as I learned how
[11:37]to write to put letters together. I used to draw a lot. There's my family's just full of creative
[11:42]people. Like I said, this painting behind me is done by my uncle. There were a lot of painters and
[11:46]musicians in my family. So everybody had some kind of creative outlet. And my family took
[11:53]everybody's creativity very seriously. But everyone had a day job. So I didn't know any professional
[11:59]writers. I just knew my grandmother who had nine children, but she used to lock herself away
[12:04]to write. And that was just her thing. And everyone respected it and lived around it and acknowledged it.
[12:10]And she never showed her writing to people. I mean, sometimes she would, she would write these
[12:14]like epic letters to people, even people who lived nearby. And she would share poems and sometimes
[12:20]like a little short things. But she wrote like volumes of things that nobody ever read.
[12:25]They were for her. So I understood that writing was like, first and foremost, something you do
[12:30]for yourself to keep yourself company for pleasure for a joy. So that's how I wrote my whole life.
[12:37]I used to keep a lot of journals and just write things. But I wrote to entertain myself.
[12:42]If I was lonely or just for fun and just to explore my imagination. And I didn't have any
[12:49]professional ambitions really tied to it because I didn't know that was a possibility.
[12:53]So when I went to college, I didn't even know you could major in creative writing.
[12:58]I remember I took a creative writing class. It was like an elective. And I went to talk to the
[13:03]professor during office hours now. So go, I'm really into writing. What can I do? And he looked
[13:10]at me and he was like, you, you're in sir, you know, like I wouldn't bother. But that was it.
[13:16]So that, you know, I would just, you know, sort of stepped away and went back to my writing
[13:21]private for years. I had another professor really fantastic professor, Norman Finkelson,
[13:27]who taught philosophy. And he would have us write these essays like every week, a personal response
[13:33]to whatever we were reading in the class. And he would start writing me notes. You care really
[13:38]good writer. You should keep doing this. You should keep doing this. And by the end of this
[13:42]semester, and he was a man of not easy compliments. He wrote me, which I still have. He said,
[13:50]you know, you're a writer. You need to keep doing this. It's going to be very hard.
[13:55]You know, but don't stop. That's all he wrote. And that just kept me going for years.
[14:01]And eventually I had other jobs at the New York for quite a long time. I had a
[14:06]job in New York. And I'm just right from myself again, just like out of pleasure. I took some
[14:11]workshops at night in various continuing education programs in New York.
[14:15]Until I finally decided I used to go to the Barnes and Noble on Union Square to like the magazine
[14:20]section on the second floor. And that's where I discovered bulletin writers magazine, which is full
[14:25]of ads for MFA programs. I didn't even know when MFA program was. And I just started learning
[14:31]about these possibilities. And finally, I applied for an MFA program that was three years,
[14:36]and that's what brought me here to Miami where I live. And I thought, well, I have three years.
[14:39]I'm going to see what I can do with this writing thing. And yeah, and a year after I finished,
[14:44]I was teaching. And I had an agent. And I got a two book deal and it's sort of man from there.
[14:51]Wow. That's wonderful. Look, congratulations. That's a great story. I am impressed time and time
[14:59]by the influence of teachers. Obviously, we know this. But particularly for writers, I feel like
[15:06]having an advocate early on makes or breaks it. And this is a story of like complete discouragement,
[15:13]which I find it heartbreaking. I mean, that one thing, you know, what would you have written
[15:19]if you had not been discouraged? Would you have written more than I don't know? It's just terrible.
[15:24]So anyway, I don't know. I just feel like the power of a teacher to bring out the writer and
[15:29]everybody is really notable among other gifts that teachers give us. So what are you working on
[15:35]another book now? Yeah, I have a story collection that will be coming out, I don't know, maybe
[15:42]next year or so. And then I'm working just in the very early stages of working on my next novel.
[15:49]Wow. And did your grandmothers write it like, whatever happened with all that didn't anyone
[15:54]ever find it? Like, can you read it or? No, one of my relatives, I think has most of it. So,
[16:01]but for a long time, I didn't really ask even see it because I just thought it would be too painful.
[16:06]So yeah, one of my relatives has it, but I don't know about anybody else. I haven't dipped into it
[16:10]really. I only have personal writings, letters that she wrote me and to some other people that
[16:16]they've since given me things like that. Well, I think that's another project in the making
[16:22]to hear her whole, like, what was she doing? Aren't you curious? I feel like I'd be so curious.
[16:27]My grandmother loved to write too, but she always dismissed it. She's like, oh, I'm more of a letter
[16:31]to the editor type of writer, you know. And she would always write letters to the editor,
[16:37]like all the time, which is like, I don't know, is that even the thing anymore? You know,
[16:41]like hardly any publication? Yeah, I mean, all right. But yeah, that's what she called herself.
[16:46]That's funny. Well, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[16:50]I do teach, you were talking about teachers. I teach creative writing at the University of
[16:54]Mayan. So, we covered all there, but, you know, a couple of tips that are not just for students,
[17:01]but for my friends who are trying to finish a writing project, your would people ask me for advice,
[17:07]I would say don't be afraid of throwing away writing in order to get to the good stuff. Sometimes
[17:14]what I see is a lot of people are very attached to things that they've written that are simply
[17:18]not working, that simply need to go through more work. Because they're so attached to what they've
[17:22]already done, they can't really free themselves to get to the next level of possibilities.
[17:29]Another tip would be to just stick with it, you know, finishing a draft or finishing anything
[17:35]a writing life. It doesn't happen overnight. It's really just an accumulation of days,
[17:40]but alone writing, you know, it's a bit thankless on the day, but you don't really come
[17:46]to writing if you're looking for pads on the back at the end of each day. But if you can embrace
[17:51]that and settle into that, the rewards of just being able to live in your imagination are huge.
[17:58]That's the real joy for me. The joy is in the work. It's not in so much what comes after.
[18:05]Of course it's wonderful to be able to connect with people over something you've written,
[18:09]but really on the day to day what keeps me going and returning to blank pages is that I love it.
[18:17]That's a beautiful love end. And are there books? Is there a genre that you like? Like are you
[18:21]drawn to literary fiction yourself or what type of book do you like? What type of book genre I should
[18:27]I do love fiction. Fiction is my first love novels and short stories. I do also enjoy poetry, memoirs,
[18:36]sometimes nonfiction books. Yeah, I try to push out of my habitual zones as much as I can.
[18:46]I like to read a lot in translation. And I kind of always looking for books that are not the
[18:53]obvious ones that everyone is recommending or everyone's talking about. Some always looking to
[18:59]expand my orbit of what I'm exposed to in writing. If you're not careful, the thing is that
[19:05]you're reading universe can be very small and based on what just people are recommending to you
[19:11]or what's being talked about. And there's so many other amazing books written and published
[19:17]and not even just the United States, just around the world. And it's a way to discover so much
[19:23]about the world. But I can recommend. I can recommend them. If you find them here, that's a good
[19:28]recommendation. Don't, don't ignore those. No, of course not. Just give it. And these things,
[19:34]well, thank you. This is so great. Your novel is beautifully written and really thought provoking.
[19:39]And I feel like, you know, I just feel like I see your characters as they move all over,
[19:46]you know, like these lines all over the country, right? As they move from Columbia all the way,
[19:50]like a little map of how they are just trying to make life better. And, you know, in the lines
[19:57]is true inspiration. So thank you.
[20:00]So thank you so much.
[20:01]Okay.
[20:02]Well, thank you.
[20:03]Have a great day.
[20:04]Okay.
[20:05]Thanks for having me.
[20:06]Okay.
[20:07]Bye.
[20:08]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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