Tanya Selvaratnam, ASSUME NOTHING
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:06]I'm also the host of Momstone Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology,
[0:12]which you should run out and buy, called Momstone Have Time to Accarantine Anthology.
[0:16]I'll proceed to that book, go to COVID-19 Vaccine Research.
[0:20]And I'm the editor-in-chief of Momstone Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium,
[0:24]and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there.
[0:29]And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram, ad-Zibioins, and my website is zibioins.com.
[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Tanya, sell for Rottenam, is the author of Assume Nothing, a memoir of Intimate Violence.
[0:44]She's also the author of The Big Lie, Motherhood, Feminism, and the reality of the biological clock.
[0:49]Her work has been published by the New York Times, Vogue, CNN, Glamour, and McSweenies.
[0:54]She's an Emmy-nominated and webby winning filmmaker who has produced for Auburn Pictures, Glamour Women of the Year,
[1:00]Planned Parenthood, and the Vision and Justice Project.
[1:03]Welcome, Tanya. Thank you so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read books.
[1:07]Thank you so much, Zibi. I'm excited, finally.
[1:10]I know, right? I feel like this one took a while to get scheduled and done and everything else.
[1:15]Okay, your memoir, Assume Nothing, a memoir of Intimate Violence.
[1:20]Wow, this is quite a story, and it's amazing. You shared it. Let's back up, because I have some questions.
[1:27]Can you please tell us, and what your memoir is about?
[1:30]Well, Assume Nothing, it's not a story of Intimate Violence.
[1:34]It's about my own experience with abuse and delves into also the trappings of my childhood, witnessing domestic violence as a child,
[1:46]and incorporates many other people's stories too, and a big catalyst for my writing the book,
[1:54]was having dozens of people reach out to me after my story became public in the New Yorker,
[2:00]which is about the abusive relationship that I was in with the former New York State Attorney General,
[2:07]the top law enforcement officer in New York, Eric Schneiderman.
[2:11]I don't even want to say right now, but what also inspired me to write the book was when I started hearing from other women that he abused.
[2:20]And in the book you mentioned how when you went to the New Yorker, if it had been only you, that would have been one trajectory,
[2:30]and yet other people came out of the woodwork very quickly within about two weeks of Jane Mayer beginning the investigation,
[2:39]and then the twists in the book, which I won't give away too much about, is that after the New Yorker story came out, I heard from more women.
[2:47]So there were those who participated in the New Yorker investigation, and then there were women who appeared afterwards that the public does not know about yet, but they will in the book plans.
[2:59]You told the story in such an interesting way because what you're really doing is like answering the question, how can this happen?
[3:07]Like how does this happen? And even in the way you structured the chapters with sort of being ensnared and entrapped in the power struggles and what happens along the way really informs the reader as to like how someone is bright as you or as all these other women have something like this happened to them in a way.
[3:28]And the way you structured the book, tell me about your decision to do it that way.
[3:32]Well, I wanted to walk the reader through the stages that one goes through and ends up entangled in an abusive relationship and also to provide resources so that people can spot,
[3:49]stop and prevent intimate violence from happening in their own lives and to their loved ones.
[3:56]I collaborated with Jennifer Friedman and attorney at Sanctuary for Families on appendix.
[4:02]So there's the narrative part of the book, but then there's also the resources part of the book.
[4:07]And it was very important for me that there be takeaways from the book and that it not just be my story, but that it is really the story of millions of people.
[4:16]Women and men and it was very important for me to dive into kind of the reporting and the research and the psychology around intimate partner violence which is so stigmatized even with the advent of me to end times up.
[4:32]There is still so much shame associated with acknowledging that one's victim when the reality is that a victim looks like all of us.
[4:40]Well, you did a really good job and you also made it feel like you're watching a movie that like a thriller almost like there was an immediacy to the writing like that really drew me in right away.
[4:52]Like it was a story and it's a reflection on on different things and of course you bring in all sorts of different facts, but it's also like a narrative like here we are at this convention and here we are on this trip and like here we are in bed with you.
[5:07]I mean it's just a lot it's like really vivid immediacy to the writing I didn't say that very well, but I hope I could be but I thought.
[5:16]No, you just made me so happy to hear you talk about the book.
[5:21]One of the my favorite compliments is when people tell me that it reads like a thriller I didn't intend to write a thriller I captured the facts as they happened.
[5:31]But when I went back and looked over my notes as I was writing the book.
[5:36]I was in disbelief at what had happened and that just shows like how how ensnared somebody can become and how the narrative really can become a roller coaster and get away from you.
[5:50]And so it was very important for me to capture that roller coaster, especially as the extraction from the relationship and then the reporting of the investigation took over it was like I had to submit to the process of journalism.
[6:05]And I realized that the the narrative was completely out of my hands in my personal life and that it was taking on ramifications that were much bigger than myself and my personal narrative because again it is so prevalent and it is so common intimate partner violence and I'm glad that you said it reads like a movie because it's I don't know if you know but it's being turned into.
[6:31]I didn't know that I'm sorry I should have researched better I usually know no no it's fine it hasn't been announced publicly it will be prior to publication but it has been optioned by ABC signature didn't he television wow.
[6:46]I'm not a cool executive producer saying so we're in the process and while I'm nervous about as the I'm nervous about the book coming out and having details that haven't been reported publicly and even those that have already been reported publicly being out there because they are.
[7:04]They're difficult details about my life myself and what other people experience, but I am hopeful that it helps other people and with a television adaptation it'll reach even more people for sure well congratulations on that that's exciting.
[7:21]Awesome well now I can't wait to watch that too we still have one night sort of tucked away for some viewing enjoyment not enjoyment I mean it's I mean a lot of it is hard to take in a way I mean not it's emotional going through this with you I mean you can feel.
[7:39]What you went there I mean even the first scene where the abuse happens for the first time can I read like a little passage or I don't have to you said when he first slapped me in the face after we started making love it happened in the blink of an eye no man had ever done that to me he seemed to be testing me I didn't know what to do.
[7:55]I tried to make sense of it before that point we had done to know each other over the course of about six weeks and I thought of him as a mediator.
[8:02]I was spoused spirituality and who fought on behalf of vulnerable people at that moment I became aware that he could inflict great harm on me over time this left got harder and began to be accompanied by demands and then you go into all this other stuff and then you say I didn't realize it at the time, but I was dealing with one kind of abuse that can go on between people and committed relationships intimate violence, but I had convinced myself that he would be my partner maybe for life if I wanted to keep him.
[8:29]I had to let him dominate me I tolerated the situation because it was disorienting and so disconnected from the person he presented as in public so it's like well just tell me about tell me your thoughts on that passage tell me how you felt writing it what it was like going through it.
[8:45]Well, it is very emotional to have somebody else read it.
[8:49]You know, because when I read it so I narrated the audio book myself and that took me by surprise how much it affected me because I wrote the book that I had to and the story that reflected what I experienced, but when I read the audio book in real time and now hearing you read it, it brings me back to that moment,
[9:14]so vivid in my mind and which I know is a vivid memory for many, many women and what we know now more about trauma and intimate partner violence is that those scars never go away those memories never go away.
[9:32]The focus has to be on healing and recovery and knowing that you're not alone knowing that you're not alone and you're not crazy.
[9:41]And also I, you know, I was I think born within an eight sense of joy, so for me it's just been very, very important to seek out opportunities to be surrounded by joy and by love and by people who have my back which is what got me through it and I feel very, very fortunate.
[10:00]to have that support network. And I just wish that for everyone else who goes through this type of
[10:05]insidious experience is to find that support. I'm really sorry you had to go through it.
[10:12]And I'm sorry that you saw domestic violence as a child and you wrote about that a lot. And
[10:17]you know one thing that struck me is when you said something like my parents, my father hit my
[10:22]mother in the living room, not in the bedroom. Tell me about that. Like what was that? I mean,
[10:27]how did it feel like now you're seeing some glimmers of what happened to you or that what you
[10:32]saw at home. I'm sorry, I feel like I cannot make a coherent sentence today. I hope you know what
[10:37]I'm trying to ask you. So what was that like? Sort of contrasting the two experiences.
[10:46]Well, growing up as a child when I witnessed domestic violence, I wondered why my mother just didn't leave.
[10:53]Mm-hmm. And I tried to get her to leave, but she did not have the support network that I was able
[11:01]to have as an adult when I tried to leave. And also she tolerated the abuse or decades. And my
[11:08]father, like so many abusers, was a bifurcated individual, making his now passed, he was deceased.
[11:15]But I see how abusers are very much the trappings of their own conditioning,
[11:22]that they can be these, you know, charismatic, even warm people in certain circumstances.
[11:32]But when it comes to their intimate relationships, take out their aggression and anxiety,
[11:38]and also their need for power, their need to dominate. And another important part of the
[11:44]book is really taking a look at the enablers. I feel like that is an under explored area
[11:54]that behind every perpetrator, there is usually an enabler. And that enabler often sadly is a woman.
[12:04]And it's really devastating. But in my case with my, when I was a child with my father,
[12:11]you know, it was, it were family members telling my mother to be silent and stay with them
[12:18]with Eric Schneiderman. He had a whole network of enablers, many of them women because he was
[12:26]there conduit to power. And this was a man that people were counting on to take on 45. I don't
[12:35]say the name of the former president or at least I say it as little as I can. They were really
[12:40]counting on him to take on 45. And I just happened to be with him when his ascent was happening
[12:46]as kind of the biggest goal work against 45 because he had jurisdiction over his charities and
[12:53]businesses in the state of New York. And also because he was the attorney general of New York state.
[12:58]And also that he was one day, you know, there was a whole power structure in New York state that
[13:04]had was built around this kind of patriarchy. And one of the outcomes that I was especially
[13:12]proud of and, you know, that was private satisfaction for me was that by coming forward really
[13:21]solely for the aim of protecting other women and also being aware of the women he had abused
[13:29]before me and that he might have used after me if I didn't come forward. There was an unexpected
[13:34]outcome, which is that New York state politics changed. Like we got the first female and African
[13:43]American attorney general of New York state into states. And that was a power dynamic that was not
[13:53]on track to being changed. Like there was no real challenge to Eric Schneiderman and the male
[14:01]patriarchy of New York state government. So I just feel like, you know, we're on this track to
[14:07]I hope a transition to more women in power, more women making decisions. And so that was like a
[14:15]very interesting unexpected outcome for me. Well, you never know what speaking out is going to do.
[14:21]So what is it? I feel like men and power and abuse abuse of the power in so many ways, whether
[14:28]it's sexual or intimate violence with their spouse or just in there's so many examples. It's like
[14:34]getting like this, it's like a laugh track getting old. Like as soon as you get to a certain
[14:41]position in power, men seem to falter and like fall into this trap of just behaving however they
[14:48]want, not all men, of course there are many men who don't. But it's just like example after
[14:53]example these days, like what on earth? Like as a mother even like like how do we raise our kids
[14:59]to make sure this doesn't happen and to make sure it doesn't happen to them for for daughters
[15:06]and everything. Like what can we do to stop this? Well, I feel that there's like a civil war going
[15:15]between feminists and patriarchs. I mean so many of the battles that are happening on kind of like
[15:21]on the governmental level is really about that. You know agency over women's bodies providing
[15:28]support for women so that they could be mothers, caregivers and workers too. So much is happening
[15:36]and we're seeing these conversations bubble up a lot now because we have a new administration
[15:42]that I feel the civil war between feminists and patriarchs is necessary and those on the side of
[15:48]the patriarchs are not only men and those on the side of the feminists are not only women.
[15:57]And I think it's very important to recognize that there are male allies and as I mentioned in the
[16:02]book that are doing the training that needs to happen like a call to men with Tony Porter and
[16:08]Ted Bunch and amazing activists who are saying we really need to look at the way we condition
[16:14]behaviors into boys from the time we're born and also for women to train, you know,
[16:23]can condition girls from a young age not to accept abuse. You know, we are conditioned to feel
[16:29]that if a boy teases us, he likes us. Like it begins in the playground, it begins in school
[16:35]and these are, you know, eons of conditioning that we have to dismantle. But I see a lot of
[16:42]hope moving forward with awareness and that awareness comes through more education, more public
[16:48]awareness, through legislation accountability. Do you ever regret in any way coming forward with
[16:56]your story? I don't really have the option to regret it. I regret getting into the relationship
[17:01]but I don't regret coming forward. Were there any personal relationships that were affected
[17:06]negatively by the fact that you came out like was there anyone in your family who didn't want
[17:12]it being known or anything like that? Was there like one particular fight or hard conversation to
[17:18]have when you said you're going to do it anyway or anything like that? There were many hard
[17:23]conversations but the conversations that supported my coming forward were far more substantive,
[17:32]tangible and sensible and rational than the debates I had with people who were encouraging me
[17:41]not to do anything. Both family members and friends would just tell me to get on with my life.
[17:46]But for me, my conscience was guiding me more than logic. And what about your relationship with
[17:55]men now? Well, I had never been in an abusive relationship before and there was a point where I
[18:04]really needed to focus on my healing and recovery because the PTSD is very real and you never know
[18:11]when it's going to get triggered. And it can be triggered by situations where you just feel like
[18:17]you're being mocked or belittled. I mentioned a situation in the book where I was dealing with
[18:23]what I consider an abusive relationship with a co-worker who happened to be a woman and she was
[18:30]abusing not just me but other women at this job. So I just want to point that out. The abuse
[18:38]doesn't just happen in intimate relationships. It obviously happens in the workplace and it obviously
[18:42]doesn't just happen between men and women. It can happen between men and men, women and women.
[18:49]And as far as my relationships have been now, I mean, I'm very fortunate to have amazing male
[18:54]friends and to have positive male energy around me because we've been in the middle of pandemic.
[19:00]Obviously it's very hard to meet people but the men that I have met since then have been
[19:08]wonderful have been great. And also I know now how to I know what I what I won't put up with.
[19:15]And my I know the kind of man I want and there's the scene in the book if you remember where
[19:25]a friend gives me a visit to a medium. Yes. And I had never been to a medium before. And that
[19:32]was wild. And she told me to make different lists. And she said that it was my grandfather who was
[19:40]a meticulous note taker which I also am which is where where my books and my writings come from.
[19:45]I'm an intrepid note taker and have been from the time I was a child. But she said that my
[19:50]grandfather was telling me to make lists. And one of the lists that he wanted me to make was
[19:56]the kind of man that I would wish for.
[20:00]person I love the most. And so when I wrote down all those qualities, you know, it's, you know,
[20:04]somebody who makes, and this is for everybody, somebody who makes you feel good about yourself,
[20:11]somebody who lets you be who you are. Yes, I'm very lucky. I have, I'm in my second marriage,
[20:17]and I have found those qualities in my husband now, and it's amazing. So I love that. Well,
[20:24]thank you for me. I hope you find that too. It's amazing what it can do in someone
[20:30]sees all of you and supports you. Yes. So sees who listens. Yeah. It's really nice.
[20:37]Anyway, well, so what is coming next? You have this movie now that's so exciting. The book,
[20:43]are you still writing? Do you have another project in mind? What can we expect? I have a lot of
[20:50]writing that I'm, as I said, I'm always writing. I have running notes, which is how my first book
[20:55]came about, The Big Lie, which is about my experiences trying to become a mother,
[21:01]and wanting to destigmatize miscarriage and infertility. And when I was having those experiences,
[21:08]I was just taking notes and then the notes eventually take a shape where I realized,
[21:11]oh, this is becoming more than just me taking notes. And so I have running notes for, you know,
[21:17]five books that I want to write. And after I finished the book tour and the press around,
[21:23]around to see nothing, then I really want to dive in and go back to Portland, Oregon. Right
[21:29]now, I'm in New York City, but I have a place in Portland, Oregon where very close friends from
[21:33]college and high school live. And the trees in Portland are magical and so inspiring. And I think
[21:40]part of what makes Portland a great city for writers. And of course, one of the greatest bookstores
[21:45]in the world, Powell's is there. So I want to go back to Portland and start working on these other
[21:50]books that I have ideas for. I really want to write a book about Sri Lanka. I wanted to write
[21:55]one about my birth country for a very long time. And I know kind of the approach I want to take.
[22:01]One of my favorite books is Michael and Dachary is Running in the Family. And I write in the
[22:06]book about Sonali De Raniagala's book wave, her memoir, which is one of the most stunning books
[22:13]about three five ever read about her losing three generations of her family in the tsunami,
[22:19]which really helped me just keep my head up and keep putting one foot in front of the other.
[22:25]I really went and write a book about Sri Lanka. And then I am co-writing the memoir of the psychic
[22:31]Frank Andrews, who's been a friend for 25, 27 years and had read my first book. And he read
[22:39]the manuscript of this book and has asked me to correct his memoir. And he has incredible stories.
[22:44]It's like a love letter to New York, because he's been a psychic for almost 60 years. And I'm
[22:50]calling it the psychic of Mulberry Street. So planning to work on that. And then I am a film producer.
[22:56]I produce all kinds of norms. And I've been working on a series that's going to accompany
[23:02]the history of the Black Church. This is our story. This is our song. So around when the
[23:09]assume nothing comes out, the series of short videos that I'm directing and producing to accompany
[23:14]this documentary series on PBS will happen. And that has been amazing. I wake up every morning
[23:22]listening to gospel music, which if you haven't done, I highly recommend it. Just like put on
[23:29]some Tasha Cobb's Leonard and John Legend and Fred Hammond and Erica Campbell and Yolanda Adams.
[23:37]I mean, to see Yolanda Adams singing at finally the first ever national COVID memorial for all those
[23:46]who have lost their lives the night before the inauguration was a deeply moving experience for me.
[23:52]And then I'm curious how you felt on the morning of the inauguration, but I woke up
[23:58]turned on the television to watch the news, which I haven't done in a long time. I've actually
[24:03]been avoiding watching the news for the last few years. And I immediately burst into tears of relief
[24:09]and joy. And also I felt triggered and I've been writing a piece about this, an essay that I'm
[24:14]going to hopefully get placed. I've been writing about how I really feel America has been getting
[24:20]out of an abusive relationship. Interesting. That sounds like a great essay. So that's what I'm
[24:27]working on more films and more writing. Well, I can't wait to read more of your books. And I have
[24:34]to go back now and read your prior work. And I didn't even like talk to you today about your
[24:39]cancer and all the scars on your body that you talk about and healing from that. And I feel like
[24:45]I'm hoping that this whole experience of writing has been a healing in so many ways for you on
[24:50]some level that it's helped you move on and close the chapter and be able to confine it to the
[24:57]pages of the book so you can pursue all these amazing other projects that you have in mind.
[25:03]Well, I'm very grateful that I am a writer. I'm grateful that my writing finds homes. And because
[25:12]it is, in the book, I say I wrote my way out of the darkness. And I wish that for everyone
[25:18]whatever outlet you can find, you know, I like to say, and it's like my silly kind of mantra
[25:25]when life throws you lemons, make art of it. Do you have any parting advice for aspiring authors?
[25:31]So much. Well, three big things. One, just be aware of what's happening around you. Keep looking
[25:38]up and take notes. Just take notes for things that strike you because you never know when
[25:43]those notes might become a book. And also for me, what really helps is I take photographs
[25:52]because photographs trigger memories. And so much of what I'm able to capture in a book
[25:58]in the details is because I've taken notes and those notes can be supported with visuals.
[26:04]So take photographs. Another thing that really helps me is I meditate. Now, I believe that
[26:11]anyone can meditate, but not everyone wants to meditate. So whatever you can do for yourself
[26:18]to take time out and not be stimulated by anything but your own being and your own stillness
[26:26]because it's during meditation that so many of my ideas come to me. And also so many memories
[26:34]come back to me. Oh, and there's a fourth thing. If you're a dreamer, like I've always been a big
[26:38]daydreamer and a nightdreamer. And my dreams are very narrative and bizarrely cohesive. Pay attention
[26:47]to your dreams. Love it. Wow. Well, Tonya, thank you. Thank you for coming on momstone time
[26:52]to read books. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for speaking out and using your life to help
[26:59]other people. It's really awesome. Thank you so much, Debbie. You're my first interview for the book.
[27:04]No way. Amazing. Well, it'll be your best too. So, you know, congratulations on the
[27:14]book and it's finding it's home and I'll all the rest of it. And thank you for all your advocacy
[27:19]for writers and readers and the platform that you provide. It's so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
[27:26]Trying. All right. Have a great day. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye.
[27:33]Thanks for listening to this episode of momstone have time to read books. Don't forget to
[27:37]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my
[27:43]newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[27:48]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing.
[27:52]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and