Jennifer Ryan, THE KITCHEN FRONT: A NOVEL
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[2:08]Jennifer Ryan is a non-fiction editor and the author of the Chillberry Ladies Choir,
[2:13]a novel that was inspired by stories her grandmother told her when she was a little girl.
[2:17]Her latest book, The Kitchen Front, is an unforgettable novel, truly, about a BBC-sponsored
[2:22]wartime cooking competition during World War II, where the grand prize was a job as the program's
[2:27]first female co-host.
[2:28]Both her books, the Chillberry Ladies Choir, and then her second novel, The Spies of Shilling Lane,
[2:33]were praised by People Magazine at the New York Times Book Review, NPR, and Publishers Weekly.
[2:38]Welcome, Jennifer.
[2:39]Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:42]Well, thank you so much for having me Zibi.
[2:44]It's really great to be here, Zach.
[2:46]Well, I'm really excited to talk about your latest novel, The Kitchen Front,
[2:50]which really, I think, has a genius, device, plot, and structure.
[2:56]So could you please tell listeners what it's about, and then we'll talk about what inspired you
[3:01]to write it.
[3:02]So it's about a cooking contest in Second World War Britain, when there was a lot of rations and
[3:08]food shortages, and basically the premise of the book is that there's four contestants
[3:14]and they're all trying to win one prize, and the cooking contest runs in three different
[3:21]parts that start a main course and a dessert, but all of them have to run strictly by the rations
[3:29]that are available to them, and also using as many little techniques as they can to use the
[3:36]rations in a very good way, and it's basically, I kind of came up with the idea because I wanted
[3:43]to showcase all of these amazingly creative ways that housewives and cooks in the Second World War
[3:50]kind of got through the whole rationing system, and yeah, so that's kind of how it all started.
[3:57]Well, it's so neat because it's like you made it top chef World War II version.
[4:02]Do you know what I mean? You create the show, and then you see even with the rations,
[4:08]I mean, I couldn't believe you listed them somewhere and of course,
[4:10]now I can't find them, but just how little people had to work with.
[4:15]I mean, it was really crazy how little a whole family would get for a given week, and you said
[4:21]like per adult, so I think it was per a child older than what was it eight or 12, they would get
[4:25]a certain amount of mean, a certain amount of sugar and a certain amount of everything, and I think
[4:30]about like how impossible it is to feed my kids now with like all the food in the world,
[4:34]I mean, not really, but you know what I mean? Like with like the supermarkets full of options,
[4:39]right? And then to have, anyway, tell me a little bit about how, so did you make these recipes,
[4:46]because one of the things, and sorry, I'm rambling a little here because I'm like really excited,
[4:50]but one of the things I thought was so cool about this book is that you have recipes
[4:54]at the end of every chapter when you're talking about the different women like
[4:57]family factories, curried salt, cod, and all these different like homily pie and everything,
[5:02]where do these recipes come from? Let's start with that.
[5:05]And so Mrs. M came from the Ministry of Food, there was a scary sound in the Second World War,
[5:12]and it that right at the beginning of the Second World War, the British government, they realized
[5:15]there was going to be a food issue, and I think everyone in Europe had almost the same problem,
[5:21]and they dealt with it in different ways, but the British government, they were all over this,
[5:25]they were like, okay, we don't want people to starve, because that will lose us the war,
[5:31]and so they put an awful lot of effort into it, and it was very draconian. I mean, really,
[5:37]they basically took over all the farms, told all the farmers what they had to produce, and then
[5:42]they took over all of the shops and basically said, right, this is what you have to sell,
[5:47]and this is, you know, everyone had a ration book, and they had to, you know, very strictly
[5:54]abide by the whole ration book system. And it was, yeah, so I came across, there was an awful
[6:02]lot of leaflets and recipes that they printed in order to try and get the, you know, get the
[6:08]whole population on their side with the whole rationing thing. So a lot of them are Ministry of Food,
[6:17]originals, yes. So, and I know, in your bio, it said that you and your daughters love to cook,
[6:24]so did you actually make any of these yourself? Of course, of course, you know, okay,
[6:29]it's nothing so bad, it's writing a book about cooking, and so you just end up thinking,
[6:35]I wonder what that is like, and you got, you just end up like lunchtime. I had mushroom soup,
[6:42]for so long. The mushroom soup recipe is so tempting, and there were other things as well.
[6:51]I just said with all of the cakes, we did all of the cakes, plus more. We kind of trialed
[6:58]a lot of extra cakes that never made it into the book as well. And yeah, no, it was great fun,
[7:05]but I also got a couple of recipe checkers as well to recipe check some of the more complicated
[7:11]ones just to make sure the balance of ingredients worked well and everything so that people could
[7:17]actually make them. You should take some of the ones that didn't make it into the book and put it
[7:22]on your website. I sure. That is a great idea. That's really cool. Well, bonus content, you know.
[7:29]Yeah, definitely, definitely. There was an awful lot of eggless cakes in different
[7:34]sizes. So that was quite good. One thing that I didn't, I didn't try some of the more unusual
[7:40]ones like sheep's head roll. I don't think you can even buy a sheep's head these days.
[7:49]Yeah, I don't call food. Oh my gosh. And I know that, so your grandmother used to tell you
[7:59]stories about World War Two is this, right? Yeah. She informed some of the backdrop for this novel.
[8:04]Oh, yeah, no, very much so. She just loved cooking and she was like renowned in our family
[8:09]as the big cook, you know, the one who could make the gravy that's just perfect and everything. And
[8:15]we called her party brandy actually because she loved hosting parties and things and she would make
[8:20]the most amazing spreads and keep everyone, you know, very fair and everything. And she very much
[8:26]had this idea that you nourish who you love, you know, and, you know, giving someone food and
[8:32]feeding is how she demonstrated her love for us. I think it's her family, but everyone I think
[8:40]she talked about cooking a lot and did a lot of cooking and her cooking was very different from
[8:46]say my mother's or what we would cook today. And a lot of that was because she actually went on
[8:51]in the UK until 1954. So she would cook an awful lot with awful. There was a lot of awful recipes
[8:59]and there was an awful lot of meat fat as well. So large, she would cook a lot with lard and
[9:04]so it and things and put it into pastries and pudding and some things like that. And I mean,
[9:11]it was just a very different type of cooking that she would do. And it was sort of intrigued me.
[9:16]and then when I started looking into the second world, I was like, of course, this is exactly
[9:21]what she used to cook. And these are the reasons why. And I suppose in a way, you know, there's
[9:27]there's an element as well in the book, which is like there's a legacy of, you know, passing down
[9:33]traditions from generation to generation. And you know, her rest of the book, her cooking book,
[9:41]my mother has it. And it's just this wonderful feeling that there's this knowledge and tradition
[9:48]that is passed down. And I really wanted to, you know, bring that back to life and everything.
[9:53]I have in my kitchen, I have a container case with all of the no cards of my grandmothers,
[9:57]handwritten recipes, you know, and I'll.
[10:00]all the things that she pulled out of magazines
[10:02]and newspapers back in the day,
[10:04]she would be probably 90 something at this point.
[10:06]But no, I love and you can take them out
[10:08]and they're all yellowed and they're probably not things
[10:10]I would necessarily want to eat,
[10:12]but there's cakes in there that are amazing
[10:14]and I remember her making and it's just so nice
[10:16]to have that record of another time and place.
[10:19]I should put it in a book or I should do something cool with it,
[10:22]but I haven't.
[10:23]That is so cool.
[10:25]You see, that's the kind of thing,
[10:26]like how rest of people can put all these extra bits,
[10:28]like tucked in and everything
[10:30]and handwriting is really bad to sell.
[10:33]Yeah, I remember there too.
[10:35]They're like, she doesn't seem to know
[10:37]how to do a lowercase letter for some reason.
[10:39]Anyway, so you used to be a book editor.
[10:43]Tell me about going from being a book editor
[10:46]to writing these three novels.
[10:48]Like how did that happen?
[10:49]And when did you always want to write tell me your whole story?
[10:53]So I always did want to write.
[10:55]I think particularly after I became a book editor,
[10:58]because there's something about really writing
[11:02]and editing somebody else's work
[11:04]and I think it just makes you think, I can do this.
[11:06]I think it's something I've always in the background.
[11:10]I've always wanted to do, but I was like,
[11:11]oh no, but I would never be able to do that.
[11:13]And then when I became an editor,
[11:15]I thought, oh, well, maybe I could, maybe I could.
[11:19]So I always started right back in my 20s.
[11:22]I started writing little bits and pieces and everything
[11:27]writing novels that never got finished.
[11:29]And after I had my first daughter,
[11:31]and I thankfully gave up work for a little while.
[11:35]And suddenly I was like, right, this is it.
[11:37]This is my chance to do something.
[11:39]I was doing a bit of part-time editorial work at the time.
[11:43]And one of the books that I was editing freelance
[11:46]was a book on the war in Afghanistan.
[11:48]And I, the information inside
[11:52]and just the kind of the details of the war
[11:53]and how it affected the society there.
[11:55]Really just really, it's got inside me.
[11:57]And I just thought this is it.
[11:59]It's like war is just such a big moment
[12:03]in time culturally, I think,
[12:06]particularly for women.
[12:07]The women involved, I've always had this love
[12:11]for the sack of war because of my grandmother.
[12:13]And I think those two things came together.
[12:16]I thought this is it.
[12:17]I need to write a book about the sack of war, a novel.
[12:20]And it's about women and how they changed,
[12:24]how they had to change,
[12:25]but how that changed was for the good,
[12:27]how much freedom and excitement and challenge it was for them.
[12:32]And yeah, so that's kind of how it started.
[12:35]So my daughter, it's my second child was just born
[12:39]and I just thought, right, I'm gonna do this.
[12:42]And it's a difficult time to start writing a novel.
[12:46]But luckily my youngest daughter was quite,
[12:49]she slept well.
[12:50]So I had every nap time.
[12:53]And you just sat like 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there,
[12:57]and do the best you can really.
[12:58]I set up my desk that the end of the dining room table
[13:02]where it's still is today.
[13:03]And because we live in an open plan house,
[13:06]it's you can keep an eye on everything when you're there.
[13:10]So you can kind of coordinate some kind of playing activity
[13:13]and kind of come back, have a quick,
[13:15]or you can have people at the other end of the table
[13:18]doing their homework or some sort of art project,
[13:22]and everything.
[13:23]So there's been an awful lot of that.
[13:25]And a big moment for me was to when my,
[13:28]when my youngest went to preschool and suddenly I had like
[13:31]these three sacrosanct hours and I would never let any
[13:35]anything get in the way of those three hours, you know?
[13:38]So yeah, I mean, you know, now they're a bit older.
[13:40]So that's, it's bit easier now, you know?
[13:42]And with, how old are they now?
[13:44]They are.
[13:45]So the youngest was 11 and the eldest is 50.
[13:49]Yeah, so yeah.
[13:51]Yeah, I thought this was gonna be my year.
[13:53]This was my year when my little list was starting kindergarten.
[13:56]So I have two seventh graders and a first grader
[13:59]and a kindergartner and I was like,
[14:00]wow, I just have to get this guy to kindergarten.
[14:03]And I'm gonna have the whole day to myself to work
[14:06]and do whatever.
[14:07]And I can like, you know, pursue anything
[14:09]I'll have all this time.
[14:10]And then of course this pandemic happened.
[14:12]And I'm like, okay, after year,
[14:14]they've been in all in the next room, you know?
[14:16]It's been crazy.
[14:17]So maybe eventually, but then of course I'll miss them.
[14:20]So anyway, yes, it all to say
[14:23]the time when they're actually out of the house
[14:25]and in school, I feel like is the only time.
[14:27]I mean, I keep my ring around because you never know
[14:30]but that I feel like I can do,
[14:32]I have like the freedom to pursue something.
[14:34]Do you know what I mean?
[14:36]I do, I do.
[14:37]But in a way, that's what I had to do with,
[14:40]you know, is sort of kind of walk away from that idea
[14:44]and just say, right, I can do it with them just over there.
[14:48]And I can just come here and just quickly do a little bit
[14:51]and then go back and everything.
[14:53]I think in a way, writing,
[14:56]I always think writing is a little bit like reading
[14:58]and you can just pick up a novel
[15:00]and just carry it and I've always just been able
[15:03]to kind of go in and I'm just like, there, again.
[15:06]And I always think that's a bit like that.
[15:08]And you kind of go back to where you were
[15:10]with the writing and you're like,
[15:11]oh yeah, that's where I was.
[15:12]And you know, carry on and everything.
[15:14]I'm an editor by profession as well.
[15:16]And I think that's quite helpful
[15:17]knowing that I'm going to go back over again.
[15:22]Yes.
[15:23]No, I know there are some authors
[15:24]who need to like have a sense of quiet or a place
[15:29]and that's fine.
[15:29]Everybody's got different preferences
[15:32]but anything I've tried to write,
[15:34]even if it's just an article or whatever,
[15:36]you know, it's in the doctor's waiting room
[15:38]or it's, you know, on the floor
[15:40]while I'm playing with that, you know,
[15:41]it's like, I can't be precious about it.
[15:43]Like, we've got all these kids.
[15:45]So anyway, and sometimes I think
[15:48]and I don't know if you agree or not,
[15:49]it's like the more chaos,
[15:52]the more like material is floating around
[15:54]and like you're kind of inspired.
[15:56]Like I feel like the day's when nothing goes on,
[15:58]I can't even write one article.
[16:00]I mean, I'm like, I have like four hours free
[16:04]without podcasts.
[16:04]Oh, I should get that thing done.
[16:06]And then like the time goes by.
[16:08]But if I only have like 30 minutes to get it done,
[16:10]I'll get it done.
[16:11]Yeah, no, I can't get you agree.
[16:13]I can't get you agree.
[16:14]One of my little moments of pre-still
[16:16]I had those three hours, oh my goodness.
[16:18]I was writing those thousands of words, you know,
[16:22]they were just all coming out.
[16:23]And but I mean, in a way though,
[16:26]I think, you know, writing is,
[16:28]it takes a lot of kind of emotional energy out of you.
[16:32]I think novel writing particularly.
[16:34]And if you know that you've got at that point at midday,
[16:38]you've just got to drop everything
[16:40]and go and do errands with your daughter
[16:43]for the rest of the afternoon.
[16:45]You could put your all into it for the knowledge
[16:47]that you know, the rest of the day,
[16:49]you don't really, you have a different type of taxing.
[16:56]So what's your favorite thing now to both cook
[17:00]when you're in your own kitchen front?
[17:02]And what is your favorite thing to read?
[17:05]So I think cooking is, you know,
[17:08]I really still love that mushroom soup.
[17:11]Okay, all right.
[17:13]The mushroom soup really goes down well here.
[17:16]Just also, I mean, I think it's to do with creativity.
[17:19]It's the same sort of thing as there.
[17:21]It's kind of like this is a moment to try different things.
[17:24]And, you know, just really spread your wings
[17:28]and work out what's, find out what works, you know?
[17:32]And reading, oh, I'm just a historic perfection fan.
[17:38]That's what I love.
[17:39]And I'll always go back to it.
[17:43]You know what I mean, every so often I read
[17:44]a bit of non-fiction, but it's normally
[17:47]well more to read a page.
[17:51]Well, there is no lack of that.
[17:53]I mean, there is so much good, amazing historical fiction
[17:57]based on World War II.
[17:58]I feel like every day I get five different emails
[18:00]about a new one popping up.
[18:03]But I think what you've been able to do too
[18:05]is sort of stand out with this book, for example,
[18:08]the kitchen front.
[18:09]It's a new take on a time that has been written about over
[18:13]and over and over and over again.
[18:14]And it's not just the cooking.
[18:16]It's also the relationship you make with the sisters
[18:19]and how, you know, one person, one sister is struggling
[18:22]and the other sister is like having this more lavish lifestyle
[18:25]and what the war does to a family.
[18:28]And I don't know.
[18:29]It's just there's always a new way to sort of package up
[18:32]a topic to make it relatable
[18:34]regardless of when it happens.
[18:36]Yeah, no, I think that what that comes down to
[18:39]is not so much that it's based on Second World War,
[18:42]but I think you've kind of dropped down
[18:46]in any period of time and create a good story
[18:50]with some of those storylines.
[18:52]But I think what the Second World War does
[18:54]as I kind of mentioned earlier is that it's such a,
[18:57]actually there's like a sociologist,
[18:58]Francis Merrill, he said,
[19:00]that war is the biggest instigator of social change.
[19:05]And I think that's such an important message is,
[19:09]you know, you're kind of making, you know,
[19:12]this hue, you're in a situation where there's this huge change
[19:16]that is going on, there is massive kind of implications
[19:20]for you and your family and everything.
[19:23]And so you're kind of putting these familial situations
[19:26]like the two sisters in a situation
[19:28]that is already complicated by the situation of war,
[19:33]if you see what I mean.
[19:34]So yeah, so it's still in a way, I think that that makes it
[19:38]different.
[19:39]I mean, a lot of the war such, the war,
[19:40]books that have come novels that are coming out
[19:42]are to do with the war itself, if you know what I mean.
[19:46]Whereas this is more of kind of home front kind of take on it.
[19:50]It's more, you know, the war is bubbling in the background.
[19:53]There's all these cultural and social implications
[19:56]that are filtering through to women like these.
[19:59]Do you want?
[20:00]Ficking shows yourself. Oh, yeah.
[20:04]Could you tell?
[20:06]I could tell I could tell I was just that I might ask.
[20:12]I know who he shows. Yeah, but I have said I don't really have a huge amount of time
[20:16]to watch them, but my daughter, one of my daughters loves cooking and she loves
[20:20]what she shows as well. So we spend a lot of time watching particularly the
[20:25]great British speaking show and some of the other kind of dessert, does that kind
[20:31]of orientated shows? Yeah. We were trying the other night to find something, you know,
[20:36]it's tough having kids that rage and age from 6 to 13 to find like a family movie, you know,
[20:41]like it's tough. We go through takes half an hour just to find something. But everybody loves
[20:46]these cooking shows. Like everyone loves nailed it. It's one of the only things we can agree on
[20:52]and that everybody likes. And I was kind of thinking a friend of mine was like, why is everybody
[20:57]sitting around watching cooking shows? Because like his five-year-old loves cooking shows and something
[21:01]I was chatting with him. And I think it's like in the olden days, maybe everybody was cooking all
[21:06]the time and everybody learned and feeding ourselves is such that's the most important human thing
[21:11]we can do, right? Without food. That's it. We have to rely on food. And instead of being by, you know,
[21:18]the ankles or the, you know, aprons skirts or whatever you call it, of parents as they cook
[21:23]since we're ordering in or we're, you know, taking out frozen dinners. Sometimes I don't know,
[21:29]I feel like there's this evolutionary reason why younger people are drawn, not just younger people,
[21:35]but people in general are drawn to cooking shows. It's like how we survive. And yes, it's fun and
[21:40]entertaining. But I do feel like there's this very deep reason why we all are drawn to these shows.
[21:47]Yeah. I think that's my theory. Actually, you know what? I think this is why the government
[21:55]and the Second World War, the ministry of food, one for everyone to have cooking contests in the
[22:00]Second World War. It is exactly that reason. I think contests are just interesting, you know,
[22:07]before long, even with a half, even with nailed it. Like, man, my daughter, they're going,
[22:14]okay, who do you want to win? Like, you know, and it's half hour show, you know? But we both
[22:20]like, they're like, okay, what's going to happen? What's going to happen? You know, and everything.
[22:24]And I think it's, there is definitely an element of, you know, what's going to, you know, are they
[22:30]going to make something that's really nice or is it going to be a complete disaster, you know?
[22:34]And in a way though, I mean, that's the thing about cooking shows, I think, is that if it is a disaster,
[22:40]it's not the end of the world. No, it's often very funny, which is a good lesson to remember
[22:48]from my own sort of cooking foibles and disasters. And a good sort of metaphor for life, you know,
[22:54]you can try and sometimes it just turns out badly, but hopefully you laugh and you move on. So
[22:59]I don't know. Seems like a good lesson for these trying times these days.
[23:04]So are you working on a new novel now? I am. Yeah. Yeah. I am working on a new novel,
[23:09]and I shouldn't really talk about it. But it is set in the second one more again. I mean,
[23:15]it's, and it's also kind of homefront based really. And it's just such a fascinating time,
[23:21]as I said before, it's, I think that the length of the government went to to kind of
[23:26]down-to-dise rationing and just, you know, control people's lives. They actually say,
[23:31]and what's read that it's the most controlled situation that you can get rather than being,
[23:36]you know, completely communist. Yeah. So, so yeah. And once again, some interesting and intriguing
[23:43]characters. Yeah. Excellent. Oh, I'm excited. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? I think
[23:49]finish. And it's amazing. One of the problems I always had, and I think a lot of it was because I
[23:56]was working full-time as that, you know, it takes such a long time to write a novel. And I think
[24:04]and you are bound to have other ideas that you think are better than the one that you're writing.
[24:10]And I think, I think the other thing is that once you're starting to write something after a
[24:16]certain amount of time, it loses its novelty. So you instantly think, oh, I quite like this other
[24:21]idea of that. Oh, let me have a look at this other idea. And when really, you need to just focus
[24:27]on one thing and just finish it. Yeah. I just started this online publication for medium. It's called
[24:32]Moms Don't Have Time to Write. And I think you should write a piece for it called When Novels
[24:37]Lose Their Novelty. And like, how to stay focused. So if you're interested,
[24:42]I'm proud of me for someone. I know. I know. Yeah. I'm very inspiring piece of writing advice. So
[24:48]anyone think about it. All right. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. This was so fun. And I'm so glad
[24:55]we got to talk about your book. I'm contemplating mushroom soup now, even though it's not
[24:59]normally a favorite, but you've sort of sold me on it. So maybe I'll put this in the rotation.
[25:05]And thank you. I'll be thinking of you next time. We all watch nailed it. Oh, well, thank you so
[25:09]much for having me. It's been really fun meeting you and talking about the book. You too.
[25:14]I hope our pets cross in person one day. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. We'll have a great day.
[25:20]Thank you. You too. Bye. Okay, bye.
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[25:38]for 20% off. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
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