Elizabeth Miki Brina, SPEAK, OKINAWA: A MEMOIR
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[2:08]Elizabeth Mickey Brina is the recipient of a Rona Jaffe Breadlifts Scholarship
[2:13]and a New York State Summer Writers Institute Scholarship.
[2:16]She currently lives and teaches in New Orleans and is the author of Speak Okinawa, a memoir.
[2:21]Welcome, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for coming.
[2:23]On moms, don't have time to read books.
[2:25]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:27]Your book Speak Okinawa is beautiful.
[2:30]From the first sentence, you are immediately immersed into your story, your relationship with your mom,
[2:37]the complications, the history.
[2:39]I learned so much more than I ever knew about Okinawa.
[2:42]So thank you for that. That was also great.
[2:44]But the way you wove it in was so effortless.
[2:48]It was like, it's like you were teaching, but sharing, I don't know.
[2:52]It's been great.
[2:53]So anyway, bravo to you for so much.
[2:55]Thank you.
[2:56]Really appreciate it.
[2:57]For listeners who don't know what it's about, can you share a little bit about this memoir
[3:02]and what inspired you to write a memoir to begin with?
[3:04]Okay.
[3:05]The book is essentially about as you're seeing, repairing my relationship to my mother.
[3:11]For most of my life, I was felt very estranged from her and I rejected her
[3:16]and that had everything to do with me not knowing who she was or where she came from
[3:23]or the history of the place where she grew up and also not wanting to know
[3:30]because my mother grew up in Okinawa, but I grew up in a very white, very homogenous suburb of
[3:37]upstate New York and I was like very, you know,
[3:41]it was during the 1980s and 90s.
[3:43]So like not the most accepting woke decades of our era and I was ashamed of her for much
[3:51]of my life.
[3:52]So the book kind of tries to describe and explain this repairing process, my discovery
[3:59]of who she is and like who I am while learning about how she met and married my father
[4:06]who was a soldier stationed on the island, which was a US territory, occupied US territory
[4:12]at the time and yeah.
[4:14]And so like these like imperialistic origins, right embedded in the dynamics of my family
[4:20]and like influenced the way I related to her and the way I thought of myself.
[4:25]And your dad was like living on the Upper East Side.
[4:28]Yeah, exactly.
[4:29]I mean, it's like completely different, right?
[4:31]Like they could not have had your mother's family.
[4:34]There were nine of them living in a room together, right, siblings and two parents
[4:40]in one room and like extreme poverty and just, you know, the way you depicted it.
[4:45]And then, you know, you're dead at like waltzing into Loyola and you know, it's like
[4:50]you do not have paired to vastly different background.
[4:54]I know.
[4:55]And then when you talk about it in the book, it's like, yeah, sometimes people meet
[5:00]and fall in love from totally different backgrounds.
[5:02]But do they mesh?
[5:04]You know, you raise this really interesting question of like, OK, then what happens?
[5:07]And then what happens in the next generation?
[5:09]And like, is it always so simple as just two people getting together?
[5:13]But what about all the cultural and the history and all of that?
[5:17]Yeah, exactly.
[5:18]Like it was always like for a long time, it was presented to me as this like very romantic
[5:23]love story, kind of like a movie, but also like kind of like simplified, right?
[5:30]And romanticize, but yeah, that's figuring out where all this, like these thoughts and
[5:36]feelings come from.
[5:37]It comes from these clashes, you know, like growing up all like the anxiety and like
[5:43]those self-loathing and things like that, it comes from it not being aware of the clash,
[5:48]right?
[5:49]And how?
[5:50]Yeah, it's not always so simple.
[5:51]Right?
[5:52]So I was easy.
[5:53]And you know, you write about it in such a factual way, like, and then the kids at school
[5:58]start calling me this and then that and there was a lot of sort of racism directed your
[6:04]way.
[6:05]I mean, that was a lot to take and tell me about the sort of lingering effects of that.
[6:11]And I know you said, you know, perhaps had you been a child right now, things would be
[6:14]quite different.
[6:15]So I really hope so.
[6:17]I hope so.
[6:18]Yes.
[6:19]I hope so too.
[6:20]But just that feeling of being other being different, you know, the 1% in your book
[6:25]references, the 1% of non-white people really in your community growing up.
[6:29]So tell me about the lingering effects of that, you know, hatred, not hatred, but just
[6:36]like all those remarks and barbs and all of it.
[6:41]Just tell me about that.
[6:42]Yeah.
[6:43]The lingering effects.
[6:44]If there are any, I shouldn't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't, to assume that
[6:48]there are any.
[6:49]I think, I know they're, they're definitely are.
[6:51]I wrote that.
[6:52]I wrote a whole book about that.
[6:55]OK, OK, OK, OK, well, you know, I just know you're absolutely, yeah, you're right
[6:58]on point.
[6:59]But it's also because the lingering effects are just so intertwined with everything.
[7:04]And it's hard to like pinpoint, but I mean, I, like you said, I always felt, I always
[7:10]felt very other, very outcasted.
[7:14]And I think, I think actually, you know, at first, like in my 20s and early 30s, like
[7:20]this, this outcastedness, like really hurt me, you know, I've just, I never felt like
[7:25]teens, 20s that they never felt like I belonged, I go as felt like just, I could never
[7:30]find just my, my niche.
[7:33]But now I think in the writing this book has everything to do with that is, I'm OK,
[7:37]I'm OK with that, you know, I'm OK with like not fitting in, right?
[7:42]And just kind of bouncing around from different groups, different places, and I think
[7:48]that, that helped a lot.
[7:49]I think in a lot of ways, like I helped me develop some empathy, right?
[7:54]Because everyone in some ways feels that way, not belonging.
[7:58]So I kind of have this soft spot for, for people who are lost and confused.
[8:05]So in a lot of ways, it helped me work to my advantage.
[8:10]In the way that you depicted life in Okinawa for your mother and her family, you talk about
[8:16]some of the inherited trauma that had gone on and the difficulty of that, and I just
[8:21]wanted to read this one quote, you said, we were talking about stories you wish you could
[8:26]have heard.
[8:27]And then you said, yet these memories are impossible to forget, regardless of whether we
[8:30]actually lived through them.
[8:32]I believe they stay in our bodies as sickness, as addiction, as poor posture or
[8:37]a tendency toward apology, as a deepened capacity for sadness or anger, as determination
[8:42]to survive a relentless, tempered optimism.
[8:46]I believe they are inherited, passed on to us like brown eyes or the shape of a nose.
[8:51]That was beautiful, by the way.
[8:53]And there's so much talk about inherited trauma.
[8:57]How much do we, is it in our DNA somehow when things have happened before us?
[9:02]So what do you, what do you make of this?
[9:04]Yeah, I mean, I, I'm sure there's science behind it, which I'm not, I don't know anything
[9:10]about that.
[9:12]Physical, biological, like what happens to your genes, right?
[9:15]But I've heard these things, but just like through experience, right?
[9:20]Like the, you know, like the pain, the pain stays inside you and it has to go somewhere.
[9:25]Like it doesn't just go away.
[9:27]And especially like, you know, my mom grew up, she grew up after World War II, right?
[9:34]But, and I think what a lot of people don't know is just how completely devastating the
[9:38]battle of Okinawa was like the whole island was destroyed, like so many people died.
[9:45]And then, but my mother grew up three years after the battle ended, but it was still so
[9:50]present, right?
[9:51]Like how could, how could she not absorb all of that grief and pain?
[9:56]And then, you know, when she was growing up, that's when all the bills.
[10:00]Terry Bases came in, the American military bases,
[10:02]and that children just absorbed that,
[10:06]even if they're not cognitively thinking about it.
[10:09]And I think the same way with,
[10:10]even another generation removed from all that trauma
[10:14]because of what my mother went through
[10:16]and what she witnessed.
[10:17]And oh, this is the case for a lot of people,
[10:20]but she really had a problem with alcohol, right?
[10:24]And so, and that was a cause of a lot of strife growing up.
[10:28]And then when I grew up seeing her pain, right,
[10:31]like I take that, and then I create my own
[10:35]and someone and so on.
[10:36]So it's, yeah.
[10:37]And I think there's ways to, obviously,
[10:42]I think that my life and my pain is not as awful
[10:46]as my mother's and hers, probably not as awful
[10:50]as someone who had actually experienced the battle.
[10:54]But so it gets better,
[10:56]but it has to go somewhere, right?
[10:59]We have to work through it until it's gone.
[11:02]Yeah, very true.
[11:05]So when did you start writing?
[11:07]I think I started actually writing,
[11:11]I was 12, I don't know, it was 12.
[11:13]And I had just finished reading the outsiders
[11:17]in eighth grade and that was it.
[11:21]I was like, I'm gonna write this.
[11:23]So I got, I got kind of hooked.
[11:26]And then did you continue to write through,
[11:29]tell me about your whole writing?
[11:30]Yeah, I, I, it was, I've always tried to write.
[11:35]Like I think for a very early age,
[11:37]I was like, I wanna be a writer.
[11:40]That's what I wanna be when I grow up.
[11:41]And so I started writing short stories,
[11:44]poems, screenplays.
[11:47]I never, like, I didn't know there was,
[11:50]for a long time, I didn't know there was such a thing
[11:51]as memoir.
[11:52]Like I didn't know that this existed.
[11:55]All the stories that I wrote were about me.
[11:57]Like, and I would, I called them short stories.
[12:00]I called them fiction, but they're clearly just those,
[12:03]that was it, this is my life.
[12:04]And I definitely hid from myself a lot
[12:07]in the early writing.
[12:08]Like I never wanted to talk about my heritage.
[12:11]Never wanted to talk about my mother.
[12:12]Like those things weren't interesting.
[12:14]I was always trying to be like very universal,
[12:16]like so white, you know, like, and then I,
[12:21]some time after college,
[12:22]or like maybe it was like the last years,
[12:24]I had this block, like,
[12:26]I had this incredible writer's block.
[12:28]I could not write anything.
[12:30]Like nothing would come out.
[12:32]And it was like devastating.
[12:35]They really took a toll on me.
[12:36]I was like, why can't like every,
[12:38]I scrutinized every sentence.
[12:39]I was like, no, that's terrible.
[12:41]That's bad.
[12:41]I can't put this out into the world.
[12:43]And then, so I stopped for like 10 years.
[12:46]Oh my God.
[12:47]Yeah.
[12:48]I mean, I wrote like maybe very randomly, you know?
[12:50]And then finally, I just,
[12:53]I was, had been teaching for a special education teacher
[12:56]in Oakland for five years.
[12:59]And while I was doing that, I was like, I can do this.
[13:01]This could be who I am.
[13:03]It wasn't.
[13:03]I am like very bad at classroom management.
[13:07]So then, you know, the school closed down
[13:10]and it kind of gave me this, like,
[13:12]what am I gonna do now?
[13:13]What have I, like just kind of like the epiphany moment?
[13:16]Like what have you, what have you always wanted?
[13:18]And so I was like writing, writing.
[13:20]Let's, let's get back, let's try to get back to that.
[13:23]So I applied to graduate schools, MFA programs.
[13:26]And it was there that like once I started getting
[13:29]like very formal feedback, people were telling me
[13:32]like what they found most moving, most interesting.
[13:35]And it was always like my mother, my, you know,
[13:38]like these, my complicated parents.
[13:40]And I was like, what, no, like we don't want to talk about that.
[13:42]That's it up.
[13:43]And then, but eventually I just, I dived in.
[13:47]So, and what was it like reliving all of this
[13:51]and writing this book?
[13:52]How long did it take when did you decide it was gonna actually
[13:55]be like a free-standing memoir in this form?
[13:58]Oh gosh.
[13:58]Yeah, it started.
[14:00]I started writing it six years ago.
[14:03]And it was like, you know, this is a book
[14:05]that I needed to write my whole life, right?
[14:08]Like this has been building up inside of me
[14:10]for a long time.
[14:11]Eventually it had to come out.
[14:13]And the most immediate catalyst was my mother's baptism.
[14:17]And so I, my mother had recently joined
[14:21]the Rochester Japanese Christian congregation.
[14:25]And I had no idea what this church was.
[14:28]I just thought like, okay, yeah,
[14:30]they're probably Japanese and they're Christian.
[14:33]And they're, I also like was very like kind of
[14:36]condescending about it.
[14:36]Like, oh, it's more colonial stuff.
[14:38]Like, you know, converting these Japanese people to Christianity.
[14:42]And then I went to her baptism.
[14:44]And I realized that all the members of the church,
[14:48]they're about 50 of them in the greater Rochester area.
[14:51]They were almost all women.
[14:52]And all the women were around my mother's age.
[14:56]And they were all married to white American men
[15:01]who had served in a military.
[15:02]And that was just like, whoa, you know, like what is this?
[15:06]And that was the first time I realized that this is not,
[15:10]there are more people like my mother.
[15:12]Like, I always thought that her marriage to my father
[15:14]was strange coincidence, right?
[15:16]Like this romantic story, like they meet at a bar
[15:20]and they, you know, love at first sight.
[15:22]But then I see, well, these women together
[15:25]I was like, no, this is part of something bigger.
[15:28]So this is a larger social phenomenon.
[15:32]And it started as an essay I was gonna write
[15:35]just about the baptism.
[15:36]And I was reading a lot of Joan Gideon at the time.
[15:40]So I was like, this is gonna be like a literary journalism
[15:43]and I'm gonna do all this research.
[15:44]But the, you know, the research kind of,
[15:46]like then I was like, it was me.
[15:48]I was like, I can't believe I grew up not knowing any of this.
[15:51]I can't believe I grew up not knowing my history.
[15:54]And like got bigger and bigger and more,
[15:58]and more personal because it was like,
[16:00]I was angry about it.
[16:02]Like I just kind of how much this could have helped me
[16:05]understand myself and understand my mother.
[16:08]So it was painful.
[16:10]Like you said, I had to relive a lot of moments
[16:13]that made me upset with myself.
[16:16]But I think that the writing helped heal, right?
[16:21]When you write it down, you can hold it still
[16:25]and you can examine it and you can give it clarity
[16:28]and purpose and maybe even make it beautiful
[16:33]and like it was all worth it somehow.
[16:37]And so that part has been actually very healing for me.
[16:40]And also like, this was how I got close to my mother
[16:45]because when I, you know, when I'm writing it,
[16:47]I had to ask for all these questions about her life.
[16:50]I had to find out things I never knew about her before
[16:54]and get, you know, find the real story, right?
[16:56]Like not the, not the romanticized version.
[16:59]And it became just so much easier to talk to her after that.
[17:03]Our conversations used to feel very, like, strained and forced
[17:06]but now it's carried over.
[17:08]And like now that we know each other, right?
[17:10]It's just like, oh, your mom, like hello.
[17:15]So that's been, yeah, that's probably
[17:17]the most beneficial part of the book.
[17:22]Amazing.
[17:22]Yeah.
[17:23]I know you had said that one of the obstacles
[17:25]to getting from your mom is that you spoke
[17:27]different native languages.
[17:28]And while you spoke some Japanese as a child,
[17:31]pretty soon how you thought and spoke
[17:33]and how she thought and spoke just didn't, you know,
[17:36]connect.
[17:37]And I know that that happens to so many families
[17:40]when people immigrate and you have different first languages
[17:44]even and the barrier, the unnecessary sort of barrier
[17:48]that puts up immediately between two people
[17:50]within a family, which is, and I think it's also,
[17:54]I mean, you know, like I said in my book is everything, right?
[17:57]Like my mother and I don't speak the same language,
[18:00]but also this powered dynamic because my father
[18:03]and I do speak the same language.
[18:06]And so that was hard because it was always just this like,
[18:09]you know, us against her that it set up that dynamic, you know,
[18:13]maybe not intentionally, but you know, how could it not?
[18:18]And that was another thing too.
[18:19]It's just like why didn't I learn Japanese growing up?
[18:23]Like why wasn't that a priority?
[18:25]You know, that's what you, and I don't think that
[18:28]either of them thought.
[18:29]I think my father is more responsible for that than my mother.
[18:32]But I don't think either of them thought
[18:34]that that how important that would be
[18:36]and how much that would strain my relationship.
[18:40]Oh, but the upside.
[18:42]Yeah, tell me the upside.
[18:43]Well, I mean, I think that it, you know,
[18:46]we have like so many more ways to communicate, right?
[18:50]And then words and languages.
[18:51]And I think that's one of the things that my mother
[18:55]and I have been able to do is just find our own,
[18:58]like rapport that does it like a very shorthand
[19:01]of phrases that mean so much more, right?
[19:04]And that's been kind of beautiful.
[19:06]It's just to kind of create our own language together.
[19:09]Has she read this book?
[19:10]She hasn't.
[19:13]Yeah.
[19:16]Tell me about selling this to Canop
[19:18]and becoming like a debut memoirist there,
[19:22]which is like such a highly respected literary imprint
[19:25]or I should say not imprint, but firm.
[19:27]Tell me what that, what was that like?
[19:29]Tell me about selling the book.
[19:30]Oh my gosh.
[19:31]That was a total dream come true.
[19:34]Very, very unexpected.
[19:36]And I'm so, I'm still so grateful.
[19:39]Like I have to just remind myself sometimes,
[19:42]like this is happening, you know?
[19:43]Like when I want to get dressed and bogged down,
[19:46]I was like, you know, like that, you know,
[19:47]like that is enough that that right there.
[19:50]Well, I really, I didn't, when I was writing this
[19:54]and I think that's very important.
[19:55]When I was writing this, I didn't think about where
[19:57]it would end up.
[19:58]And I was just thinking like.
[20:00]This is a story I have to tell.
[20:01]I have to give it my all.
[20:03]And I was really just thinking,
[20:05]whoever would take it, like, who will take this?
[20:08]And I went to Breadloaf.
[20:12]It's a writer's conference in Vermont.
[20:15]And I submitted the first chapter to be workshop
[20:20]because I had written that first chapter
[20:23]so many times that I couldn't even see it anymore.
[20:26]And I also, and I didn't even,
[20:28]I was like, is this any good?
[20:30]Because I submitted it to so many places
[20:33]that I got, like, just projected so many times.
[20:36]Like, is this okay?
[20:37]Am I, do I know what I'm doing?
[20:39]And the fellow at the workshop named Francisco Contu
[20:44]was like, this book's guardian angel.
[20:46]Like, he's amazing.
[20:47]He read it and loved it, which is like, so validating.
[20:50]Just like, oh, thank God.
[20:52]Like, someone recognizes this.
[20:54]And then he introduced me to my agent,
[20:58]incredible, like, just like the book deal on my dreams, right?
[21:03]So it happened really, it took a really long time
[21:06]and then it happened very fast,
[21:08]which I think seems to be common, common experience.
[21:12]So exciting.
[21:13]Yeah.
[21:14]So what are you doing now that this is coming out?
[21:17]Are you continuing to work?
[21:18]Like, do you have a day job?
[21:19]Are you writing full-time?
[21:20]Or I'm writing part-time?
[21:22]I'm working just on some essays here and there.
[21:27]I can't help, but like, I write to understand myself, right?
[21:32]So I continuously am like, and jot it and jot it down things.
[21:37]And also this craziness, right?
[21:39]Like, I need some sort of processing through it all
[21:43]is crazy time that we're living in.
[21:44]But I get, my routine, my schedule is part-time tutor
[21:49]at a community college.
[21:50]So that keeps me grounded.
[21:51]And I love it.
[21:54]I feel like that's the best thing that applies to so many people.
[21:59]I write to understand myself.
[22:01]It's so simple and yet it's so true.
[22:03]I mean, that is why I think so many people write.
[22:06]I know, like, anytime I have an issue with anything
[22:10]or I'm like, I'm like, if I could just sit down
[22:12]and put my fingers on the keys and give myself an hour,
[22:16]I will sort through it.
[22:18]It's just, there's something about writing that it, you know,
[22:22]at least I find, and obviously it's better than talk.
[22:26]It's for me, it's so much better than talking.
[22:28]Right.
[22:29]I can try to talk about my feelings.
[22:31]But if I write about it, like, you know,
[22:33]it all like, you know, and I don't know.
[22:36]And it's magic.
[22:37]And there's something about like, like finding the right words,
[22:41]right, like, no, wait.
[22:42]Is that what I'm feeling?
[22:44]No, let me, let me think about it, right?
[22:46]And so then you can really understand it, right?
[22:48]Like, this is exactly what I mean.
[22:50]Where it wears talking is just whatever comes to mind at first.
[22:55]Exactly.
[22:56]Can't like copy and, you know, find the exact right metaphor.
[23:01]Yes, that's true too.
[23:05]So what is coming next for you?
[23:07]I'm trying not to look too far ahead, you know,
[23:10]because of the world, because of everything.
[23:13]So it's kind of like one day at a time.
[23:15]But like I said, I've been, I've been writing a lot of essays
[23:18]or like parts of essays.
[23:20]They're all sort of peripherally about my parents,
[23:23]because they'll endlessly fascinate me
[23:26]and they're also the most important people in my life.
[23:28]So they're like in my life, the material.
[23:31]Yeah, good source of material.
[23:33]Keep tapping that as long as you get exactly.
[23:35]But also exploring and trying to resolve my own relationship issues.
[23:40]I know that was kind of like a very loose thread
[23:43]in the book that I just finished.
[23:45]So we'll see where that takes me, right?
[23:49]I'm just launching now an online publication for Medium.
[23:52]It's called Mom's Not A Time to Write.
[23:55]So if you want to write an essay,
[23:56]if you want to find a home, I'm sure you could anywhere,
[23:58]but you know, we'll publish a month or less and so.
[24:01]Yeah, I know.
[24:03]What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[24:06]Well, I still sort of consider myself an aspiring author
[24:10]that it hasn't fully sunk in yet.
[24:12]But I could see what worked for me.
[24:15]And I think that is finding a story
[24:19]that you have to tell, right?
[24:21]That is just like this inside you and you can feel it growing
[24:25]and it has to come out and finding the story that only you
[24:30]can tell, I think that we all have our own unique perspectives
[24:35]and contributions.
[24:37]And I think what I did a lot of new writers do
[24:40]is maybe tend to focus on the stories they think
[24:44]that they should tell, right?
[24:45]Like what other people think is interesting and important.
[24:48]And that doesn't sustain you, right?
[24:51]Like that won't keep you sitting in a chair writing.
[24:55]So I always try to think about like,
[24:58]what am I constantly worrying about?
[25:00]What am I constantly wondering about,
[25:01]obsessed about what am I trying to figure out, right?
[25:04]And that's what drives me to get me to finish.
[25:08]And I also try to write to myself as a reader,
[25:13]like I think of when I reread my own work,
[25:17]I think to myself like, what do I want to know about?
[25:20]Like what comes next?
[25:21]What do I want to know next?
[25:23]What dark secret do I want myself to reveal?
[25:26]And also just what I want to sound like.
[25:29]I reread my sentences over and over again
[25:31]and try to think like, what would I be proud to say?
[25:34]And then that way I learned to sound more like me.
[25:37]Well, you are truly a beautiful writer.
[25:40]And I love your writing style.
[25:43]I just love it.
[25:43]It's not like overly flourishing.
[25:46]And yet it's still literary.
[25:48]And it teaches and inspires.
[25:50]And I don't know, it's just like very captivating
[25:53]and it makes you not want to stop reading what you're writing,
[25:56]which I don't say often, I have to say.
[25:58]I mean, I mean, I just love what you write
[26:00]and I want to read like anything else that you write.
[26:03]Oh, yeah, it's going forward to you.
[26:05]I can't wait to see what you do.
[26:06]I mean, this is just your debut.
[26:07]So it's always really exciting to come across
[26:10]like someone super talented
[26:12]who's just getting started.
[26:13]That makes me so excited.
[26:15]I appreciate that.
[26:16]Thank you so much.
[26:17]It means a lot.
[26:18]Anyway, I'm proud of you.
[26:20]All right, well, congratulations on speak Okinawa
[26:23]and I'll be following along your journey.
[26:26]And I'm excited for you.
[26:27]Thank you.
[26:28]Thanks.
[26:29]I'm right, take care.
[26:31]Bye.
[26:32]Bye.
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[26:50]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[26:52]to Read Books.
[26:53]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:55]at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:58]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[27:01]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:03]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[27:08]for the Sound Editing.
[27:09]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:11]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.