Emily Layden, ALL GIRLS: A NOVEL
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:37]Emily Layton is the author of All Girls, her debut novel.
[0:41]Emily is a writer and former high school English teacher from Upstate New York.
[0:45]A graduate of Stanford University, her writing has appeared in The New York Times,
[0:48]Marie Claire, The Bill Fold, and Runners World.
[0:51]Welcome, Emily. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:54]Thanks so much for having me.
[0:56]Sure.
[0:57]Okay, all girls, this book cover sort of stopped me in my tracks.
[1:01]I went to an all-girl school.
[1:03]I have to tell you for nine years.
[1:04]And this was a way of acting to form.
[1:07]But this was the uniform of a lot of the girls down the street who I also grew up with.
[1:11]So for that alone, I was like, oh, this is interesting.
[1:14]And then it turned out it was really great work.
[1:17]So it's pretty good.
[1:19]I'm getting that from, so I worked at several all-girl schools,
[1:23]but I'm also getting that feedback from a lot of people.
[1:26]I think that, like, tartan kill to the very standard girl school uniform.
[1:31]Yes.
[1:32]So tell listeners what your book is about and then what inspired you to write it?
[1:37]Sure.
[1:38]So the novel begins as an alumna of the all-girls at Water School has come forward with
[1:46]an allegation of sexual assault.
[1:48]And the story unfolds over the course of a single academic year as the school.
[1:54]And it's inhabitants react to that accusation.
[1:58]The book is Multi-POV.
[2:00]It's nine interconnected characters navigate the kind of social moorays of prep school life
[2:07]and the broader challenges of growing up against this backdrop of sexual violence and
[2:13]institutional non-transparency.
[2:16]And all the while, the acts of a vigilante prankster threatened to undermine the school's
[2:23]efforts to quash the scandal, really raising questions about at-water's role as a protector
[2:30]and defender of young women and the power those girls have to kind of nonetheless like assert their
[2:36]voices.
[2:37]So that's the book.
[2:40]You asked me about my inspiration.
[2:41]Yeah.
[2:41]After that, we can go.
[2:42]That'll just be all we need.
[2:46]All in the first two minutes.
[2:47]It's okay.
[2:48]So when I sat down to write the book, I really was trying to do two things.
[2:53]I think number one, and I wanted to write something that really honored the experience
[2:59]of teenage girlhood in kind of all its death and capacity.
[3:04]And I wanted to do that through the lens of an all-girls school.
[3:08]As we just talked about, I spent most of my 20s working at various boarding and independent day
[3:14]schools, the majority of them all girls.
[3:18]And I wrote this book from 5 to 6am every morning before going to teach in part because
[3:25]I felt really compelled to write about what I felt I was witnessing every day,
[3:30]which is what it's like to come of age in a place that really promises you the world
[3:37]when that world still isn't totally yours for the taking.
[3:41]Wow.
[3:42]I'm impressed 5 to 6 every day.
[3:44]Literally, as you're saying that I'm sitting here thinking, could I like set aside that
[3:48]hour? Would I wake up before my kids and do it?
[3:51]I don't know.
[3:51]It's a lot of dedication, but also shows that when you do it a little bit every day,
[3:56]you chip away.
[3:56]And then next thing you know, you have this giant book in front of you, which is amazing.
[4:00]I think it's, you know, I think Stephen King, I'm sure many people have said this,
[4:03]but I think Stephen King, who I was very famously said, like if you write a page a day at the end
[4:07]of year, you'll have a novel. And that was sort of, that was the way it had to happen for me,
[4:13]I think.
[4:13]This is a good New Year's thing. I mean, I know your book is coming at,
[4:17]when does it come at February, February 2nd? Is that right?
[4:20]February 16th.
[4:21]February 16th.
[4:21]Okay.
[4:22]That's the day my anthology is coming out, by the way.
[4:24]Oh, I have it.
[4:25]That's exciting.
[4:25]I learned what's a big trend.
[4:27]How did you do it?
[4:28]But this is still early enough in the year that people could stop and say,
[4:33]okay, this year 2021, I'm going to start right now.
[4:36]I mean, I guess it doesn't have to start at the beginning of any year. It could be any day you
[4:39]pay, right?
[4:40]I'm a teacher. I don't go by January to January. It's academic.
[4:43]Yeah.
[4:43]I was a teacher. It's academic.
[4:45]The life is lived in academic years, right? Not, not January.
[4:48]September.
[4:49]Yeah, February 16th.
[4:51]Let's all just start writing books.
[4:54]Sounds great.
[4:55]So the interesting thing about this book, or not the interesting thing, let me
[4:59]rephrase.
[5:00]One of the interesting things about this book is that you cover so many different characters,
[5:05]and you don't necessarily go back and dig way back in and revisit everyone in
[5:10]equal measure, or even at all. And it almost could be interlinking short stories in a way,
[5:17]except that they're all set on campus.
[5:20]So did you consider writing a book of short stories, or how did you come up your multi-point
[5:26]of view, point of view?
[5:27]How did you end up doing that in terms of formatting and structure of the book?
[5:32]Yeah, fair question, totally. I think that I, so I don't know if I thought of this as short
[5:38]stories or linked stories, but I know that I never thought of this book as a single protagonist
[5:46]book. I felt that there were too many stories I wanted to tell, and it seemed sort of unrealistic
[5:54]and unreasonable to burden a single character with all that I wanted to say.
[6:00]I felt that I could achieve deeper wells, like a greater exploration of a single issue.
[6:05]So mental illness, trauma, sexuality, if I used multiple videos.
[6:11]So that's part of it. And then I also think that I wanted to depict a community,
[6:17]not just a single person, and that, so I knew I was going to be casting a wide net sort of
[6:23]from the outset. How did you even pick who to start with?
[6:29]That's a great question. You know, I think in some cases the character sort of came to me first,
[6:36]and I had a concept for a character and then sort of swatted her in wherever it felt right.
[6:44]But then the book also roughly follows you into a girl school film. I'm sure you know this too,
[6:49]that these places are really big on tradition, right? Like the events of the year are really
[6:55]important. And so I knew I also wanted to chart that sort of rhythm of the year. So sometimes
[7:02]of in yet, I started with something like the holiday pageant and expanded out from there.
[7:09]Interesting. So the character who had the eating disorder with the insured drinks,
[7:17]and who was running and did track and all of this. Basically, thank you,
[7:23]we see. I know I was kind of like on this podcast to forget all the news.
[7:26]But there are a lot of names to my credit, right?
[7:28]Okay, absolutely. I feel like I remember Lauren's the best, but me,
[7:33]you know, her whole eating disorder and does she talk about it? Tell me a little bit about
[7:38]that because I feel like you hear so much about girls in boarding school who might have eating
[7:43]disorders and you've been a teacher, and I'm sure you've seen examples of this.
[7:47]Just tell me a little more about her character and how she manages this when like at home,
[7:52]you could have somebody's watchful eye over you, right? But then once you're away at school,
[7:56]your demons are packed along with you. So what do you do?
[8:00]Yeah, that's a great question. So Macy is interesting to me because when we talk about
[8:07]disorder eating is often accompanied by, I forget what the technical term is,
[8:12]but like simultaneously occurring disorders. So comorbidity.
[8:16]Yes, yes, thank you. So Macy really struggles with OCD and anxiety and her
[8:25]her disorder eating, which in my mind is actually it's closer to our fed, right? Like avoid
[8:31]and restrictive. Perfect. What is that? Our fed is, and I don't remember the full acronym,
[8:37]it's avoidance, restrictive, food intake disorder. I think maybe they are FID.
[8:43]I thought I was like so up on this. And now there's a new acronym that I don't even know about.
[8:49]Every time there's no eating disorder, like do I have that? Maybe that's the one I have.
[8:57]I didn't, I couldn't remember comorbidity, you know, but I had our thing to us. So we're getting
[9:03]together. So our FID is like a little bit less, it is really less well-known. And it does,
[9:13]it really has a lot of symptoms that are very close to anorexia. So it is a tricky one and a newer
[9:20]one, at least like in the sort of like iced. But the point is that Macy's eating her issues
[9:28]is food get triggered by her anxiety and her OCD. And so that's really what I was trying to
[9:35]mine with her, even though she is a runner and runners tend to have, there's obviously a high
[9:41]correlation between endurance athletes and the further eating. I really wanted to capture with
[9:46]Macy that idea that so often disorder eating is a physical manifestation of a psychological burden.
[9:53]And it's easy for it to happen at school for her because everything's new. There's so many
[10:00]saying that she can be anxious about. So many ways she's thrown out of her normal routine
[10:05]for her and her chapter, the real trigger is initiation and not knowing what that is,
[10:11]not knowing what something is high levels of uncertainty are anxiety triggers. So for her
[10:17]that was just a quick dive. And as you say, particularly when you're young, she's only
[10:23]a freshman, you don't have a great sense of what the resources at school are. So where you
[10:30]would go, who you could go to, you don't really have friends yet. So like, that it's very, you are
[10:36]very alone in a lot of ways. And you have to figure these things out on your own.
[10:42]The initiation chapter was like, I don't know. I was like panicking the whole time myself. I feel like
[10:48]it gave me anxiety just reading it. I can't believe they're like in the dark, like what in the
[10:53]lake now, what is it doing? Like thank God, I didn't go to that school. I wouldn't have made it to that
[11:00]part. So I noticed in your acknowledgements, which are always my favorite part of the book to read,
[11:07]you mentioned this part about therapy, which I thought was so interesting. So I hope you don't mind
[11:12]them and I'm going to read this part rather anything in your amazing book. But you said the transition
[11:18]into this new career would not have been possible without the support of my therapist. Good therapy
[11:22]with the right fit is transformative. And yet the fact that I am able to pursue treatment is a
[11:27]privilege. Mental health care should be accessible to any individual who needs it. And I hope that
[11:31]one day such a system will prevail, which is an amazing sentiment when I completely and totally agree
[11:37]but to thank your therapist openly begs the question, okay, so what are your what what were you
[11:43]in there? I just kind of like business, but you know, you're you're the one who put it in the
[11:49]book. So I'm trying to get to ask now. It's totally fair. And I definitely wrote it into you
[11:56]write that knowing that people might ask today. I am people. Yeah, exactly. So we were just talking
[12:04]about Macy. I do really struggle with anxiety and that and I and I and disordered eating not
[12:12]are fed. But becoming a full-time writer, you know, I love teaching. I left teaching to do all of
[12:19]this. We sold the book very quickly. My life changed overnight. And that was very, very difficult.
[12:27]It was it was that one of those moments, you know, people talk about all the time. It's
[12:31]everything you've ever wanted. And it feels terrifying. And I really don't know. You know,
[12:42]it's a combination of you feel immense pressure. You know, we did tell the book very quickly.
[12:48]And I suddenly felt like I had better live up to this. Even though the book was already done,
[12:52]there's really nothing left to live up to, but you feel like I'd better live up to this.
[12:57]And now this is my job. I had best to write another book. I had better prove that I'm not just
[13:06]the one hit wonder or at least those are all the thoughts that manifested initially, right? Like
[13:12]now I know how to talk back to some of those. And I am working on that publishing as a journey in
[13:20]which like 90% of it is out of your control. But that whole new job, whole new world, whole new
[13:28]set of expectations, even though I had a sensibly asked for all of it, that was incredibly
[13:34]anxiety inducing and really a moment when I needed to, I've had fair, I've been in and out of therapy
[13:41]for a decade, but it was really a moment where I like, I really needed that, needed that safe
[13:46]to proper. I feel like I should run a support group for big deal first-time authors.
[13:54]I just like earlier today I was on an author who had been on the bestseller list forever and
[14:01]she recounted her fear at starting her second book. And you know, how her husband had to talk her
[14:07]into doing it and saying it doesn't have to be the same book and it's okay that it takes you longer
[14:11]and you know, the pace might be different and it's okay. And because she couldn't even write,
[14:16]she was so thrown. I think with most successes, people only focus on the good parts. Well,
[14:22]must be perfect. Like blah, blah, blah, but there's a lot that goes into everything and change
[14:28]in and of itself can be very stressful and anxiety producing. Even if it's something good,
[14:32]like good change or and bad change, changes change and change rocks the system and brings up all
[14:38]sorts of old issues. So I get up. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so hard because it is like,
[14:44]I know how lucky I am and I'm so grateful. And I know that two years ago, I would have
[14:49]committed murder to be where I am right now, but like it's real nonetheless. So yeah, I know
[14:55]it's universal. Even if it's good, doesn't undermine what you're going through.
[15:01]Can you go back a little bit to the selling of the book and so you wrote the book from five to
[15:06]six in the morning? And then what happened? You got an agent and immediately sold the book? Is that
[15:11]what happened? Yeah, so I it's funny. You know, I actually do come from a family of writers. My dad
[15:18]is a writer, my uncle is a long-time journalist, my cousin who I'm very close with as a television writer,
[15:24]but I still went through the normal like query process. I just finished the manuscript and I
[15:29]sent it out to a bunch of agents, got a few offers and ended up with Lisa, who is just like
[15:36]I adore her. Talk about their best you have really does her fair share of that for me.
[15:42]And we did I would say a light revision together and then we sent the book out. This was like June
[15:48]of 2019. And yeah, sold it. I mean, it was the next day in 24 hours. So in 24 hours, I was teaching
[15:56]it was the last day of school. And Lisa was calling me and emailing me. And I'm really like trying
[16:03]to, you know, wrangle a bunch of kids and keep just like keep them safe on the last day of school
[16:09]and also kind of like pause without a book. Have you read writers and lovers by Lily King?
[16:16]I have not. It's a huge fun. Yeah, I need to read it. You definitely need to read it after that story.
[16:22]Not to get anything away about that book, but you have to now you have to go like wipe time
[16:27]clean in your holidays season or something. Okay. Okay. Well, it will relate. Well, that's crazy.
[16:33]And it just happened. And then you went with that publisher and that was it.
[16:36]Yeah, it was so if we had a we had a pre-empt offer. So, okay, you know, instead of going to auction
[16:42]and and I talked to, I talked to Sarah at St. Martin's and she didn't go to a girl school, but she did
[16:49]go to a prep school and she's been looking for a campus novel forever. And I felt like she really
[16:56]understood exactly what I was trying to do with the book. So it's been great working with her.
[17:01]That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Very exciting. So have you found it to have made it more difficult
[17:08]to write having the success and the sale and everything. Are you able to write now? Like, are you
[17:13]working on another book or? It's true. I think. And I've heard other people, other writers say
[17:18]this on your podcast that sometimes I think the last time you have some more productive people
[17:22]are. Yes. So I definitely think that in some ways, when I had to go teach all day and I only
[17:31]had that hour in the morning, I really used that hour. I was super focused. You know, no having
[17:39]around online. It was just I was in the zone because it's all I had. Now, I find sometimes I can
[17:45]feel four hours, but there is that still rustling a little bit with that pressure of like feeling
[17:55]like the next one has to be, have to live up to whatever expectations have been created by this one.
[18:01]I am working. I've got I'm working on a couple of things. I am sort of bouncing between a multi
[18:07]generational family narrative, sort of in the vein of everything I never told you. And a book
[18:15]that is engaged and exploring kind of what it means. The difference between like gold star
[18:24]good. So like, you know, like in school when you get like a gold star. It's a gold star good. And like
[18:31]ethically, morally good. So when we say that someone is a good girl, for example, what do we
[18:39]what do we mean by that and which one and which set of expectations are we operating with?
[18:43]So very, I was vague, but it stayed. Yes.
[18:54]It won't get I won't try to tear anything else out of here. What advice would you have to
[19:00]aspiring authors? So I'm an athlete. I'm a runner. And just as sort of the only way to be good
[19:07]at running is to do it, right? Consistency is the key. I feel that way about writing too. That's the
[19:14]only way to get better at writing is just by writing. But I would also I would add that
[19:21]in running rest days are important as well. And I think that in writing the same history,
[19:28]but it is important to take time away from the project. Tell me regularly to give yourself
[19:34]space. So I could tell. Well, I couldn't tell necessarily, but I had a feeling that you were
[19:40]runner after what you wrote in the book and the feeling of running and what it did for you
[19:44]or the character emotionally. And there was something about the past year right there that I was
[19:49]like. This is only talking here. Yeah. Yeah. Kelty. What event did you like? Did you
[20:00]compete in track?
[20:01]No, so, well, so I actually, I played the Cross at Stanford.
[20:05]And then in my, I've always been like running
[20:08]as I've been the law, then La Crosse was kind of the sport
[20:10]that just gave me other opportunities.
[20:12]And so now in my post collegiate life
[20:15]have been very happily, a just a runner.
[20:20]So I do, I do races, but like, and any distance,
[20:23]but yeah, it's more about the day to day.
[20:26]I played the Cross at high school.
[20:28]And then when I went to Yale, I was like,
[20:30]oh, well, maybe I'll try to walk on the La Crosse
[20:33]team here and I'll give it a shot, you know?
[20:35]They're pretty good.
[20:36]I like, goed up to, yeah, I know.
[20:39]Which is why it did not work.
[20:43]I showed up my first day, you know,
[20:45]like, hey, I'm walking, you know, everyone's like,
[20:47]oh, I have the most assists.
[20:48]Like in the country, I was recruited from XYZ school
[20:51]and then I don't know.
[20:53]I lasted maybe a week and I was like, OK, not only
[20:57]am I like, two feet shorter than everybody,
[20:58]but I'm definitely less skilled.
[21:00]I'm only 5-1, so you can be, I say, OK, you can be sure.
[21:03]I'm 5-2, all right.
[21:06]All right, well, I can't use that excuse,
[21:08]but I like, I like that excuse.
[21:10]There are many others.
[21:13]That's so funny.
[21:13]Yeah, well, all right, well, I could have played you
[21:17]if I weren't probably 20 years older than you as well.
[21:20]No, I'm kidding.
[21:22]OK, well, anyway, Emily, congratulations on this book.
[21:25]I'm so excited.
[21:26]I'm excited.
[21:27]We have books coming out on the same day,
[21:28]even though my mentholgy, you still like it.
[21:31]I did and I'll be rooting for you at the success of this book
[21:35]and you have a natural built-in audience
[21:37]with all the girls' schools, and that's very strategic
[21:40]and awesome of you.
[21:40]So yeah, it's great to meet you over Zoom.
[21:44]It was great to meet you too.
[21:45]Thank you so much for having me.
[21:47]We're so welcome.
[21:47]All right.
[21:48]All right, bye-bye.
[21:51]Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's
[21:53]Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[21:54]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[21:57]and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[21:59]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[22:02]and sign up for my virtual book club
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[22:06]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[22:08]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[22:10]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:12]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.