Madeleine Dean and Harry Cunnane, UNDER OUR ROOF: A SON'S BATTLE FOR RECOVERY, A MOTHER'S BATTLE FOR HER SON
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:37]I had the great pleasure of talking to Congresswoman Madeline Dean and her son, Harry
[0:43]Knaine, about their jointly authored book called Under Our Roof, a son's battle for
[0:48]recovery, a mother's battle for her son.
[0:50]Madeline is the Congresswoman for the fourth district of Pennsylvania, suburban Philadelphia,
[0:55]a member of the House Judiciary and a House Financial Services Committees, and vice-chair
[1:00]of the bipartisan Women's Caucus.
[1:02]From 2012 to 2018, she served in the Pennsylvania House.
[1:05]From 2001 to 2011, she taught writing at La Salle University, and she has contributed to
[1:10]Newsweek, the Philadelphia Inquirer Philadelphia Daily News, and other regional publications.
[1:15]She and her husband, PJ Knaine, live in Jenkinsown, Pennsylvania, and have three sons,
[1:19]two daughter-in-laws, and three grandchildren.
[1:22]Harry Knaine has been an active member of the Addiction Recovery Community since his
[1:26]recovery began more than seven years ago, participating in a 12-step program volunteering
[1:31]at rehabs and jails around Philadelphia to spread a message of hope.
[1:34]He now works as a resource director for the same treatment center where he originally
[1:38]sought help for his own addiction.
[1:40]He lives in Audubon, New Jersey with his wife, Juliet, his daughter, Aubrey, and his son,
[1:45]Sawyer.
[1:46]Madeline and Harry are the authors of the children's book You Are Always Loved, in
[1:50]addition to under our roof.
[1:52]Welcome, Madeline and Harry to mom's time to read books when we're going to discuss
[1:58]under our roof.
[1:59]A son's battle for recovery, a mother's battle for her son, your amazing book.
[2:04]Welcome.
[2:05]Thank you so much.
[2:06]Thank you for inviting us.
[2:08]From the very first page of this book, I was like trying to push my kids aside to read
[2:14]it without interruption.
[2:15]I'm like, this is so intense.
[2:16]This is so good.
[2:18]Edge of my seat kind of writing and I love how the two of you go back and forth.
[2:22]Tell me about your decision to write this book and second of all, your decision in
[2:27]the format of it and to write it jointly like this.
[2:30]How are you?
[2:31]How do you roll with this?
[2:32]So first of all, writing the book was not our idea.
[2:36]My older brother is a writer.
[2:38]He had published a book after his time in the Obama administration and his agent came
[2:44]to him and said, hey, would you like to do another book?
[2:47]And he said no, but my brother and my mom might.
[2:50]So that's sort of where it all started.
[2:53]But the sense of how we decided to do it in terms of dual voices for us, I think, was such
[2:59]an important aspect of it.
[3:02]And then my mom is very, she was particular on the font, had to be different to sort
[3:07]of show our different voices, but what we did is we really wrote it completely separately.
[3:13]So we came up with an outline of key events and what we wanted to write on.
[3:19]And we didn't read what each other were writing.
[3:21]So we didn't want to score memory or change our perception to try to match with what the
[3:27]other, how the other experienced it.
[3:29]And then our editors, of course, did a wonderful job of help really sewing it back together.
[3:35]But for us, it was really a very sort of individual process when we first went through
[3:41]the first pass of it.
[3:42]And I'll add to that, we didn't think of this on our own.
[3:45]So when Pat and his agent came to us, I was pretty surprised.
[3:50]And I thought this is a daunting project.
[3:52]But then I thought, wait a second, I have to write on the half.
[3:55]So maybe I can get this done, you know, about being busy moms.
[3:58]But we were certain that we wanted to do a couple of things, make sure by way of the font
[4:03]to signal two different voices.
[4:05]Literally, we chose a seraphone for me and a more masculine non-seraphone for him to
[4:11]signal voice and age and gender and roles.
[4:15]And I think the other thing that we did was intentionally not read each other.
[4:20]So you might imagine, maybe you wouldn't.
[4:22]But when I read some of his chapters, there was so much in there I had no idea about.
[4:28]So it was kind of stunning.
[4:29]And as Harry said, the editors did a really nice job of weaving our two stories together.
[4:34]What was that like learning about some of the stuff that must have been rough?
[4:38]I mean, there's a lot in here.
[4:40]Sorry, Harry.
[4:41]It's like, if you were my son and I was reading this, I don't know.
[4:44]That would be a tough afternoon on the couch.
[4:48]Oh, it's no longer, I don't believe it's any longer chapter five, but I kept saying
[4:53]to Harry and to Pat, I can't get through chapter five.
[4:56]It was originally chapter five that was really just overwhelming to me in its depths and
[5:01]sorrow of addiction.
[5:03]And so I kept saying, I can't even get through chapter five in any event.
[5:07]We've gotten through it and I think we've learned a lot along the way.
[5:09]And what about you, Harry, were there parts you were surprised to hear from your mom's
[5:12]point of view?
[5:13]They're definitely where, you know, I think what was interesting was, you know, when
[5:18]we started this process, you know, I guess two years ago at this point, I had been in recovery
[5:23]for six years and my mom and I's relationship had grown and, you know, we had already
[5:28]had a wonderful relationship.
[5:30]But sort of once you get a little bit of distance from kind of the active addiction portion
[5:35]of it, a lot of these things you just don't talk about, maybe you don't need to talk
[5:39]about, you don't need to go into the details, it's, so there was so much there that she
[5:45]didn't know and, you know, a lot of people around me didn't know.
[5:50]From my side, what was so valuable was I always had these assumptions of how, you know,
[5:55]how I had hurt her, how I had impacted the entire family, but never really knew because
[6:01]I was fortunate when I got into recovery, my family was incredibly supportive.
[6:06]So they didn't hold a lot of these things over me.
[6:09]I knew there was pain, I knew that I had caused it, but I didn't know exactly what it
[6:14]looked like.
[6:15]So it was very interesting to go back and read and, you know, the one thing with my mom
[6:20]wanted to hire a private investigator to follow me.
[6:23]Like, I had no idea that these things were going on.
[6:26]I think I thought I had it a little bit more hidden than I did, which turned out not
[6:32]to be the case.
[6:33]Well, I mean, there were a lot of times where I found you sort of wondering, should you
[6:39]have known or was this a sign or why did you miss this?
[6:43]Or I felt like you were, you know, maybe not completely beating yourself up, but just
[6:48]like, like, how could you have missed it?
[6:50]Like, tell me about that and looking back, I mean, I can see the pain.
[6:54]It's still painful, right?
[6:55]All of what happened.
[6:56]I mean, any time a child is in pain in any way, it's just almost unbearable for the parent.
[7:01]So tell me, tell me a little bit about how you feel the mothering piece of it was and
[7:06]like looking back and how you, and I don't know, just talk about that.
[7:10]Well, a couple of things, I knew there was something desperately wrong in our house.
[7:15]I likened it to a fire in the walls of the house.
[7:18]And I felt like I was the only one who knew it.
[7:21]There's something desperately wrong going on here, but you see maybe in our writing
[7:26]that it's also met with a bit of denial.
[7:29]All right.
[7:30]You know, is this just normal experimentation, a kid being a teenager and being a jerk to
[7:34]his mother and a fighting and all of that?
[7:37]So in one sense, and particularly because of how Harry was changing from the lively boy
[7:43]and young boy that he was to something becoming flatter and sicker and so unproductive.
[7:50]And platter, there was a darkness to his bright eyes.
[7:54]But you know, this is something that comes on slowly.
[7:57]So, you know, if you've ever been around someone who is sick, when you see them before
[8:01]they were sick to when they're desperately sick, you can't believe the difference.
[8:04]But if you're living it every day, just little pieces of him seem to be ebbing away.
[8:10]And I kept saying, it's got to be drugs it.
[8:13]So you can see I struggled, I ineptly drug tested on the trials.
[8:18]Oh my good, just absolute nitwit of a mother trying to figure out what was going on.
[8:25]But also I didn't understand, I thought I understood addiction as a disease and was
[8:30]it drugs and was he addicted?
[8:32]But I didn't really understand it all until we got into treatment recovery.
[8:37]And literally I learned so much more about the depths of addiction because of Harry's honest
[8:42]writing.
[8:43]and some vanilla view of abuse of drugs and what it might be.
[8:47]You can see through this story in the honesty with which Harry tells it, that addiction
[8:51]is a very ugly place to have to go.
[8:53]Yes, I was delighted to see him looking so cleed up and like in a blazer and everything.
[8:59]I'm like, oh thank God, you know, that's like, I'm like, oh, he's all about the local
[9:03]now.
[9:04]Healthy felony style, but you were so, you were so sneaky.
[9:10]I mean, the amount of times you sneaked out of the house and like took the car and like
[9:15]I'm like, I think I need to put like some sort of alarm system in place before my kids
[9:19]like start doing this stuff.
[9:21]And even I couldn't believe when you were in the ER with that horrible allergic reaction
[9:25]and you hadn't told the allergist that you were taking percocet and whatever else at the
[9:29]time.
[9:30]And so you like went into anaphylactic shock and multiple epinephrine shots didn't do
[9:34]the trick and you went to the hospital and you actually took the blood that they took
[9:40]out of you.
[9:41]So you could hide it, unbelievable, I just couldn't believe it, like the extent to which
[9:48]you would go to hide what was going on.
[9:50]Tell me a little more about that.
[9:51]Yeah, I mean, I think it's just summed up in the desperation of keeping that secret and
[9:58]hiding it and...
[10:00]You know in hindsight now into recovery. It's almost seemed silly. You know how
[10:06]Terrified I was to expose what was really going on and I think that's it for me a huge part of
[10:12]The stigma around this. I didn't view it as a disease. I didn't view it as anything other than I knew what was right and wrong and
[10:19]I knew I was incapable of making the right decision
[10:23]Especially consistently. So I just looked at myself towards the end as this horrible horrible person
[10:30]You know and and the shame without any of it coming from outside the shame that I felt was so intense
[10:38]That I was willing to risk anything, you know stealing the blood and you know shattering and trying to hide the vials of blood
[10:45]So they couldn't you know test me, you know everything that I did was a
[10:50]Defense mechanism to protect my secret, but I think you know, it just and that's part of why I wanted to get this out there because
[10:58]In hindsight, it's clear to see but at that moment
[11:01]You know the stigma and the shame and all of the things that go around this topic
[11:06]Really just paralyzed me, you know and the last thing
[11:10]You know I'll say is when I was in treatment and I wrote it in the book
[11:14]But it was just such a powerful moment and such a simple statement of you know when
[11:19]Father Bill who was a priest that you know current treatment centers when where I went
[11:24]Just told me, you know Harry. You're not a bad person
[11:28]Trying to be good
[11:30]You're a sick person trying to get well and that just you know that little thing just flip my perspective on what I was
[11:37]Dealing with because I had no sense of that before. I didn't know about the vials until he wrote that in that chapter
[11:44]I was so desperate to get to the answer
[11:47]I really thought he fought me about going to the hospital, but it was darn scary
[11:52]So I thought I've got this will be the ultimate drug test
[11:56]And of course it was concealed yet again
[11:59]I feel like there's such a history in your family now
[12:03]Madeline from what you wrote about your mother and how
[12:07]Amazingly giving the people in your family are because when your dad was sick and ended up
[12:12]I'm so sorry passing away and your mom was stuck across the country taking care of one of your siblings
[12:18]She said something that I couldn't believe that when she and she really obviously wanted to be there when her husband passed away
[12:25]But she said maybe it was meant to be that I wasn't there
[12:28]If I had been there
[12:29]I would have taken too much of his time
[12:31]Instead he got to spend more time with all of you
[12:35]I mean what a selfless comment that is I just that just really stuck with me
[12:39]Well, and that tells you everything you need to know about my mom
[12:43]She was an only child who went on to have seven children in part
[12:48]As a gift to her own mother who wanted more children
[12:51]My for whom I'm named Natalie eaten and my mother was just like that when we did dealt with my grandmother
[12:58]Who mourned the loss of her husband desperately daily
[13:03]And so when my father died so suddenly I worry oh my gosh, well mommy slip into that same
[13:09]Sadness and instead that was her reaction the generosity of spirit
[13:14]I couldn't believe it and she she said that immediately when we met her
[13:17]She said maybe that was meant to be you all got more time with them
[13:22]Wow, and your generosity of spirit and how you took everybody into your home
[13:26]And all the people you've grown up with from your knees to your uncle and Wally
[13:30]Like all your house is like you know
[13:33]Like a grand central station in a way
[13:35]I'm wondering now like what's the home life like now are you living by yourself? What is it like?
[13:40]We're still trying to adjust we you should have seen our house on trash day that trash cans lined up
[13:46]Like we had a real group home going on there
[13:48]But I love that I worry sometimes that maybe it was a little too much and was I
[13:54]Sapping any of the time from the children
[13:56]But I thought we're here. We have all this we should share it
[13:58]Now we just sold our family home at the big house that we lived in
[14:03]And where all of this took place to downsize because it was just PJ and me and sometimes
[14:07]It was just me and sometimes it was just PJ
[14:09]So we've downsized at least our main house
[14:12]bought a condo and I have an apartment at DC
[14:16]We're on by myself. It's a very different world
[14:18]But we have a place in cake May that we all come to so that's our new
[14:23]Not new that is our our the place that is a magnet for all of the kids and now the grandkids
[14:29]It hopefully has better plumbing than the place you got at the shore that summer
[14:33]Which sounded horrific. Oh my gosh, we've got our
[14:38]Good, oh my gosh
[14:40]The thing about your addiction Harry, which I'm sure is true of so many is that you really
[14:47]Communicate it in the book
[14:48]You're desired to stop at many times and yet the complete inability to do so
[14:53]Especially when your girlfriend gets pregnant
[14:55]Tell me about that experience and how when you knew you were going to be a dad
[14:59]What that did to your desire to get sober again
[15:04]So I'm glad you picked up on that because I think you know
[15:07]There's often an impression that you know
[15:09]This is what they want to do and you know for somebody who's caught up in it
[15:13]So when I found out I was going to be a father. I was 20 or 21 years old
[15:18]No, it was 20 years old and
[15:21]Completely caught up in addiction
[15:24]My life was a complete disaster
[15:26]I was you know failing at school and working in a warehouse and
[15:31]Nothing was going well, but I was immediately filled with this sense of hope
[15:36]Because naively I believe that was you know the willpower that was it
[15:41]I knew the kind of father I wanted to be
[15:45]And I just believe that I was going to do it
[15:48]So for me it was such a hopeful moment
[15:50]But as you know as you see it wasn't the cure that I thought it might be
[15:54]And and I really really struggled afterwards
[15:57]And that struggling after was just the most hopeless and sort of soul crushing
[16:04]Experience that I could have imagined because every day
[16:09]You know I knew before it was a problem
[16:12]But every day after she was born just every decision I made
[16:17]Was counter productive to the person I wanted to be the person
[16:21]I knew I could and should be and it just brought me to a point where
[16:26]I believe there was nothing that could pull me out of this that this was my life and I was going to die this way
[16:31]Oh, it's like soul crushing
[16:34]What was that period of time like for you? I know you were
[16:37]So upset my lane when you heard the news about
[16:41]Becoming a grandmother at this point when Harry was only 20 and kind of a mess in his own life and
[16:46]You know he was bringing a baby into the world like tell me about that inflection point
[16:51]Well, it was a very dark moment
[16:54]We were struggling with somebody who was 20 who seemed arrested in his own maturity and development
[17:00]Some years back struggling to be successful struggling to succeed whether it was in high school or college
[17:06]Struggling to stay with his work
[17:09]Sickly and I just thought so sad that here his his would-be childhood was coming to a very abrupt end
[17:18]I didn't think he was taking good care of himself and clearly he wasn't able to at that point
[17:23]So it was just dark that he would now face becoming a father
[17:27]I've had other mothers who tend a son or daughter with an unexpected pregnancy and that same kind of darkness comes over you
[17:36]The same feeling I have to tell you how
[17:40]Beautifully it's lifted my
[17:42]A baby on her way
[17:43]So for that time it was I was very blue
[17:47]But obviously the new life and the gift of our our granddaughter Aubrey changed that dramatically
[17:54]And meanwhile you weren't just at home being a mom trying to help her son
[18:00]You are also becoming a congresswoman
[18:03]Along the way and and getting involved in politics and all sorts of different ways and going door to door
[18:08]I mean there was all this you had a whole separate thing going on
[18:11]Which is like giving back to the world at large
[18:14]Tell me about the intersection of of what you were trying to do at home versus in the bigger political sphere
[18:20]And even now well, you know in those days, you know, it was um
[18:24]I had been teaching I was a lawyer as a younger woman
[18:27]Then I had the chance to teach at Lesai University for 10 years
[18:30]Which worked really well with the balance of family life and I really loved that and it helped me work with young
[18:37]People finding their their way in their words, but I always knew I had an itch in me from the time
[18:42]I got started in politics at 18
[18:45]Literally ran for office for this little position called committeewoman and I knew someday
[18:50]And you and you won and I run I took out a bit was
[18:54]But I literally in my 30s and 40s I thought about getting into politics running for office
[18:59]But thought out that'll rob the kids. They're we don't get to do this child
[19:02]But twice and it'll we're so busy as it is that would rob them and so but I I got it
[19:09]She I turned 50 maybe I'm a late bloomer and had the chance to go to school first
[19:14]Take a couple courses at Penn and then was asked to run for township commissioner
[19:19]So all of this is going on as I'm struggling with this newness of running for office
[19:24]And then serving and you know when you have a problem in your house
[19:27]The problem can become all-consuming
[19:30]So it was difficult to navigate those two worlds
[19:34]But somehow we muddled through and we did it. Wow if you could go back and
[19:40]Tell yourself while you were going through this for anybody who is going through this any moms who have a child who
[19:46]They suspect is struggling in some way or they know to be fighting addiction or any of that
[19:52]Like what would you say to that mom or dad? Yeah, the reason we wrote this book was we thought maybe our story
[20:00]Could help somebody else that if we reveal and be honest about you know, obviously in this book you see honestly the mistakes
[20:07]I made the things I didn't know the stupidity to stumbles and yet the
[20:13]Mother's desperation to find out what's going wrong with her beautiful son
[20:17]So I would say reach out to others as for help bounce this off somebody else
[20:22]There was a person you saw in the book who helped me just by having coffee with me a couple of times and talking to me and saying
[20:30]You know your instincts are probably right Matt. He's lying about it. He's he's trying to cover it up
[20:34]He's trying to say maybe it's gambling maybe it's something else
[20:37]But your instincts are right staying with it
[20:40]I did homework on where he could get help if I could ever get him to the point of admitting what was going on
[20:45]But I I guess I would say to mothers and fathers or loved ones if you're self-abrake
[20:50]It's not easy to try to discover what's going on with somebody else if they're dealing with addiction
[20:55]But don't give up hope that's the worst, you know, the words that you're using whether it was desperation
[21:01]You know, desperation is a loss of hope don't give up hope there is always hope that's what I would say be self forgiving and
[21:08]Don't give up hope. How about you Harry? What would you what would you say to parents of people or even maybe I mean
[21:17]I don't think any kids are listening, but I don't know
[21:19]What would you say to anybody about your story that might be helpful? No, I mean of you know the areas where my mom and I
[21:25]Disagree this isn't one of them, you know, I think that really there is help
[21:30]You know, and even though it often does not feel that way just sort of a concert reminder of that and I think the other thing
[21:37]You know, I've learned both through my experience receiving treatment and also in my current work is
[21:43]There are so many resources out there. There's so many different pathways to recovery
[21:49]It's not a you know one size fits all. It's not you know
[21:53]This is what you have to do everybody's different and that's why there's a lot of
[21:58]Different resources out there. So find somebody
[22:01]That you trust and talk about it, you know, that can be a friend a neighbor a therapist whatever the case is
[22:09]Start talking about it, you know, it's not as scary as it seems to talk about this because what I found and what we found
[22:19]You know and doing this is you know, though
[22:21]I tried to hide it and you know our family didn't talk about it that broadly
[22:26]This is happening in so many households almost everybody knows somebody
[22:31]You know, it might not be in their immediate household
[22:34]But just about everyone knows someone who is struggling and I think I found once you kind of strike up a conversation
[22:41]They may be a little bit more open to sharing their experience with it
[22:45]You know, so find somebody that you trust and talk to them and just remember there is always always help and just to close
[22:52]I know you had this beautiful quote at the beginning of the book, which of course now
[22:55]I won't be able to find but something to the extent that an addiction affects the whole family. Where is it?
[23:00]It was like it brings the whole family down. It's not just about the one person, right?
[23:05]It's about the whole system
[23:07]So in terms of your whole extended family and I know how you held your older brother pattern such high regard and you can see that like
[23:14]I don't know what your relationship is like now
[23:16]Although if we had like another half an hour, I'd want to talk about that
[23:19]Because you you clearly like just thought he was I don't know yet such idolized
[23:24]relationship of him and how great that he's the one who now got you guys to write this book
[23:27]But in terms of family systems like what can we all do to help families that are struggling?
[23:32]What do you think because we all know as you said people but when there are family systems that are you know
[23:38]Weathering the storm who have that internal fire and the walls and don't quite know what to do
[23:43]Is there anything we can do to help others? My dad flies a lot or you know pre COVID flew all the time a little bit less now
[23:53]But what he has always said which I think is valuable
[23:56]You know when looking at the family system, you know
[23:58]We're looking at the person who's suffering but the analogy of you know when the mask the oxygen mask falls
[24:06]Secure your mask before assisting others
[24:10]So I think when there's this
[24:12]You know fire within the house you can't control
[24:16]What the person who has a substance use disorder is doing you can't fix it you can't manage it
[24:23]You can be there and try to you know try to offer help and solutions
[24:28]But what you can do is work on yourself
[24:30]You know and try to be able to
[24:32]Find some comfort some piece within yourself because if you can't heal
[24:38]Then it's going to just be even harder for the person who is struggling to heal
[24:41]But if they see you healing it may give them hope
[24:45]You know, so I think that's something that's so important is no matter what's going on
[24:49]The only thing you can control is
[24:53]What you're doing for yourself and self-care?
[24:55]The quote you were thinking of
[24:57]Was something my friend Lois used to say all the time?
[25:00]Lois to Vita used to say a family is like a mobile and so when one spins out of control
[25:06]The whole mobile tries to go to compensate
[25:09]And I saw that in my own family when I was a child growing up when a brother had was drafted and served in Vietnam
[25:16]How the whole family sort of suffered and struggled with that and so
[25:21]What I would say to your audience is that's really true a family dynamic moves in synchronicity or out of sync together
[25:30]The outcome for us. I never could have foreseen
[25:34]Which is as Harry was spinning out of control and we were desperately trying to figure out what was going on
[25:39]Once we figured it out and he said yes to recovery, which is a miracle moment
[25:44]Something he can be extremely proud of to simply say yes to be vulnerable and say yes
[25:50]What happened then? I could not have predicted which was his brothers
[25:55]He always was going to be there and I was always going to be there
[25:57]But his brothers without any judgment came in and surrounded him and doused him with love and support and a lot of good
[26:06]humor a lot of ribbing and a lot of good fun
[26:08]But it actually made us stronger as a family
[26:13]I think by coming face-to-face with this disease
[26:18]And the reality that it could take your life and for us
[26:22]It was a very powerful terrible time to go through, but on the other side of it
[26:26]I think it made the love bond in our family stronger. It's amazing
[26:33]Well, well, thank you
[26:34]It's so nice to meet both of you having just read this book which is so good under our roof
[26:39]Thank you for sharing your story. It's really powerful
[26:42]And I'm sure it's going to help so many other people so well done. Thank you
[26:47]You have to tell someday you'll have to tell me about you. I'd like to interview you and you
[26:52]Putting this podcast together. I think it's very terrific. Oh, thank you anytime. I'm around
[26:59]Thank you so much. All right. All right. All right. Take care. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of mom's don't have time to read books
[27:08]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at mom's don't have time to read books
[27:13]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week
[27:20]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan fact texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this
[27:27]Fantastic intro and out trim music