Ladee Hubbard, THE RIB KING
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[3:25]about self care and balance edited by Amy Newmark. This is a fantastic collection of essays.
[3:32]And everyone will find something relatable and that they can use to make their lives better
[3:36]within these essays. Ladeh Hubbard is the author of the rib king and novel. She's also the author
[3:43]of the talented ribkins, which received the 2018 Ernest J. Gaines award for literary excellence
[3:48]and the Hurston Wright Legacy Award for debut fiction. She received a 2016 run a jaffy foundation
[3:53]writers award as well as fellowships from the McDowell colony. Born in Massachusetts and raised
[3:59]in the US Virgin Islands in Florida, she currently lives in New Orleans with her husband and three
[4:03]children. Welcome, lady. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books
[4:08]to discuss your novel the rib king. Oh, no, that's good. Thank you for inviting me. It's my pleasure.
[4:14]I've been really excited about this. Can you tell listeners please what the rib king is about?
[4:19]Well, if a very brief synopsis would be it's about an African-American man who is a groundskeeper
[4:27]and it's 1914 and he invents a meat sauce that becomes a national sensation and it's very popular.
[4:37]It's distributed all over the country and he spends the rest of his life touring the country
[4:44]giving cooking demonstrations as the rib king. Amazing. Was this based on a recipe of yours? Where did
[4:50]this come from? Where? No, do you cook? No, I don't and actually I have quite a few food allergies.
[4:57]So yeah, someone was saying maybe it's like a weird manifestation of my relationship with food that
[5:05]I would want to write about someone that invented a meat sauce but I was really interested in
[5:11]food as a commodity. Back that. So it's more about the circulation of the product that he created.
[5:19]and I love how you set the whole thing up and show us so clearly what daily life is like in this
[5:25]household and literally you're right there on the bus going home with August and traveling and
[5:32]seeing his co-workers house and it's just so vivid and how he is so loyal to his job that he would
[5:39]want to run back in when he saw something amiss and that pride of taking ownership of your job
[5:45]very seriously and you know you go from that to everything else that ends up happening. It's
[5:51]amazing how you painted that picture. How did you go back and recreate? I mean that's such a certain
[5:57]time and place and the bus stops and that you know I mean like everything is so it looks like you
[6:02]were looking at an old picture that was weathered and you were like I'm gonna write was that what it
[6:06]was? Tell me about it. In part yeah I looked at a lot of pictures of homes at the time and just a lot
[6:14]of images a lot of books a lot of research. It was actually really fascinating but it felt very
[6:21]necessary so there's no city named in the book for where it takes place but all the research was
[6:27]based in Chicago so like grounding it in a specific place when I was trying to write it was
[6:34]very important. I think for me to understand the characters right and just how they existed in space
[6:43]that are to try to understand you know yeah so yeah it was a lot of research but little details what
[6:51]you know for me there's a scene in the first part where it talks about one of the the maids putting
[6:57]a cloth over the light. They had to give a particular weight and so little things like that were
[7:04]were just very helpful to find out about in terms of trying to get a sense of where everybody was so
[7:11]it was a lot of research yeah. And when you talked about the effects of the introduction of electricity
[7:16]in their house and how the stains on the couches were suddenly so vivid and how you know for the
[7:22]people working in the house electricity was like not the best thing right so that was that
[7:30]that was part of why that particular period of time was so interesting to me because all of
[7:36]thinking about all this new technology being introduced and again it also relates back to
[7:43]the availability of things like canned food. Do you know what I mean? Like there was you know
[7:48]wasn't that long before the book takes place where accessing products like that would have been
[7:56]extremely difficult or you know a rare experience and so that that that transition was very
[8:02]interesting to me. So thinking about going from like not having electricity to win exactly it was
[8:09]actually something people had in their homes you know. And then like when these big technological
[8:17]things happen to us you don't realize in the moment that they're going to be these huge shifts.
[8:22]I'm like that's who's going to use an iPad that's just stupid. I would never use that you know
[8:28]and then all of a sudden now I have kids all over the house on different iPads like who
[8:32]have thought right it's like it's amazing. So I was thinking about my daughter my eldest child
[8:38]is 20 and I have a son who's eight and I still remember Lisa my daughter playing on those little
[8:46]pretend computers like speaking about things and she perfectly content with that and now it's just like
[8:54]you know just from one child to the next how much their relationship to to all these new
[9:00]things that have happened it's like he won't know he would never play. He wants a real computer
[9:06]and like it's it's pretty amazing how fast things that that thing happened because my stepmother
[9:12]gave them a speaking spell ever funny and they were like oh that's nice and I was like this is amazing
[9:18]I used to use them. I know I know like on the bed like loving it you know and they were like
[9:25]you know back to Roblox so yeah it's pretty incredible but any but then you think about
[9:31]the impact of something like this and how it changed society in such a major way it's crazy right
[9:37]great was that was this by the way something that used to happen the family here not adopted but
[9:42]sort of took these boys as interns if you will in the kitchen that happened around the house and
[9:48]would just like pick them from an orphanage and then sometimes shoot them back and was this
[9:53]something that happened or tell me that like apprenticeships apprenticeships thank you for that
[10:00]And yeah, for I don't know what the term would be,
[10:03]but yeah, people that were, you know, arrested,
[10:06]I guess juveniles for delinquency
[10:09]and didn't have parents and things like that.
[10:11]So yeah, that was pretty variable from state to state
[10:15]at that time, but yeah, I did do research with that as well.
[10:20]I do research and it's like the basis of it.
[10:24]I do not always stick to the facts and the things,
[10:27]like specifically that's part of why I didn't set it
[10:31]in an actual place because it's not really about
[10:36]a specific place.
[10:37]Do you know what I mean?
[10:39]So I was trying to, I wanted to have enough knowledge
[10:42]that I felt like it was a world I could inhabit, right?
[10:46]Both as a reader and a writer,
[10:48]but I didn't really want to be confined
[10:51]by the sort of the facts though.
[10:54]Do you know what I mean?
[10:55]I do, I do.
[10:56]So because sometimes too, like I know,
[10:58]especially when you're talking about how what the law was
[11:02]at that time, the execution of things can be a lot messier
[11:09]anyway.
[11:09]Do you know what I mean?
[11:10]So certain things that maybe were supposed to happen,
[11:14]we all know from the present,
[11:16]you not actually happen that way all the time.
[11:19]So yeah.
[11:20]And as a fiction writer, that's okay.
[11:22]You can take some of these out on the right.
[11:25]Yeah.
[11:26]So and that's then for me, that's part of why.
[11:30]I don't know, I like historical fiction.
[11:32]I think it's really interesting because I think
[11:34]you have a greater freedom to sort of try to explore
[11:37]maybe deeper truths about what's going on
[11:41]and the connections between things as opposed to,
[11:44]I don't know, just remaining in dialogue
[11:47]with a set of facts, do you know what I mean?
[11:50]Yeah.
[11:51]Yeah.
[11:51]So interesting.
[11:52]I still do, I do a lot of research
[11:54]and then try to forget it.
[11:56]So I can be a little bit more instinctual
[12:00]when I'm writing it.
[12:01]So I think sometimes it's clear, not in your book,
[12:05]but you know, occasionally in books
[12:07]where you read a fact that somebody puts in
[12:09]and it kind of jolts you out of the narrative
[12:11]because you're like, we didn't need to know that necessarily.
[12:14]But maybe like the author knew this
[12:16]and wanted to show that she knew this
[12:18]or he knew this.
[12:19]Jamie like this song or this shop or whatever.
[12:22]And you're like, but I didn't,
[12:23]that didn't further your scene.
[12:24]So this just jolted me out.
[12:26]So it's almost like it can be too much
[12:28]when you put in facts.
[12:30]Yeah.
[12:31]Yeah.
[12:32]And I think, yeah, I think sometimes you're trying to,
[12:35]or I know for me, if I focus too much on that,
[12:38]then it's like you sort of feel like you have to explain
[12:41]what you're doing with those facts by getting into the background
[12:46]and all of that.
[12:47]And that really wasn't what the book
[12:48]you were talking about.
[12:50]So I just, you know, I tried to use the facts
[12:53]to the extent that they,
[12:55]I don't know, pushed the book forward
[12:56]in the way I wanted to go.
[12:58]Yeah.
[12:59]That's really like inhabiting the moment for me.
[13:01]Do you know what I mean?
[13:02]So that's great.
[13:04]That's great.
[13:05]So once you do all your research,
[13:08]then do you start writing or do you do it in tandem?
[13:10]Like how long do this whole process even take you?
[13:13]Well, for this book, it's interesting
[13:16]because I actually wrote my dissertation
[13:19]like years before on the Chicago World's Fair of 1893.
[13:25]So, and when I wrote it,
[13:27]I was thinking about completely different things,
[13:30]but I, a lot of the information,
[13:34]certainly about commodities and stuff like that
[13:36]came from the research I was doing for the dissertation.
[13:41]So that's why I was aware of that time period.
[13:45]So what I did the, my dissertation was actually about
[13:49]in part about tourism.
[13:51]So it was a completely different subject.
[13:54]We're not completely different,
[13:55]but a very different subject.
[13:56]But it just made me aware of that time period.
[14:00]Yeah.
[14:01]In a way you've made all of us tourists.
[14:04]You have, that's like how you've done it.
[14:06]You're like, all right,
[14:07]you're coming along on the ride with me
[14:08]and we're like tourists right here.
[14:10]So that's an interesting way to think about it.
[14:12]Yeah.
[14:13]Yeah.
[14:14]Through time and space.
[14:15]Yeah.
[14:16]There you go.
[14:17]Now your PhD is justified.
[14:20]Exactly.
[14:21]Yeah, let me search.
[14:22]Yeah.
[14:23]But the writing part itself,
[14:26]how long did that part take when you sat down
[14:28]to make it into a story?
[14:29]A very long time because I started the character,
[14:33]the rib king.
[14:34]That's right.
[14:36]What becomes appears or is mentioned many times
[14:42]in my previous novel, The Talented Rickens as like,
[14:46]because that's a contemporary book
[14:47]and he's the family patriarchs.
[14:50]They reference him,
[14:51]like all of his descendants reference him at one point
[14:55]or another.
[14:56]And in that book, the only image,
[14:58]they don't really know that much about his real life.
[15:01]It's sort of like family lore.
[15:03]And the only image they actually have of him
[15:06]is the label of a cam, right?
[15:10]That he, or these ads he appeared in.
[15:13]So yeah, and that's a,
[15:14]he represented very specific things in that book
[15:18]in terms of like the idea of family and tradition
[15:22]and how that sort of becomes a very willful act
[15:27]like claiming tradition.
[15:29]Because the reason he's a vote while the characters,
[15:31]he comes up when they're kind of trying to justify something
[15:34]they're doing.
[15:35]And it becomes like, this is how we behave in the world.
[15:40]This is because of this example,
[15:42]but they're actually really sort of making it up
[15:45]to a certain extent.
[15:46]So it was about, it was about totally different things.
[15:49]So I start in any event to make a short story long.
[15:53]I've been writing about the character
[15:55]or he manifested itself in my mind
[15:57]like a very long time ago before the first book came out.
[16:01]It's probably around 2013, actually.
[16:05]Yeah.
[16:06]And then in general, I do a lot of background writing.
[16:10]So for that book, I just knew their whole family history
[16:14]by the time the book was published
[16:16]or that book was finished.
[16:18]And so I did some preliminary writing back then, 2013, 2000.
[16:24]The meanwhile, you've been working on this family
[16:26]and this essentially like a series, if you will,
[16:28]like for almost a decade.
[16:31]And yet in the middle of all this now in like news
[16:34]and the worlds, all these things are happening
[16:37]with exactly what you're talking about
[16:39]with a sort of commodification of or appropriation,
[16:42]even of using imagery to sell products, right?
[16:45]Like Uncle Ben's and Aunt Jemima
[16:47]and how everybody is now coming off of these packages.
[16:51]So what do you think about that?
[16:52]Because there's been a lot of different takes on that.
[16:55]And I've heard that the families are not exactly pleased
[16:58]that they're going to lose that income source
[17:00]from having the pictures on those products.
[17:02]Were they receiving income from that?
[17:04]I didn't even know that.
[17:05]That's what I heard.
[17:06]I mean, I should have reached product.
[17:08]I should have researched this.
[17:09]This is from my husband's time.
[17:11]Oh, he was like, he read that the family,
[17:15]at least for one of the products.
[17:16]I don't know if it was Uncle Ben's or Aunt Jemima
[17:18]that they had been receiving with dividends of sorts
[17:21]from having it be part of their family
[17:23]and that now with the picture and the label being changed
[17:26]and everything, they were gonna stop receiving that money.
[17:28]And so they were like, wait,
[17:29]you're doing this to sort of help us, but you're hurting us.
[17:33]That's what I heard.
[17:34]Well, I know, I don't know as much about Uncle Ben,
[17:38]which I know was later, Uncle Ben.
[17:40]I believe came about in the 1940s, maybe,
[17:45]even maybe it was earlier, I don't know.
[17:46]But Aunt Jemima is not a real person.
[17:50]That was always fictitious.
[17:51]And it was actually introduced
[17:53]at the Chicago World's Fair of 1893.
[17:57]So that was the intersection of that research.
[18:02]And so it was a fictitious character
[18:04]and it was originally portrayed by a woman named Nancy Green.
[18:08]She performed Aunt Jemima and it's been performed
[18:11]through a series of, there's not,
[18:13]she's not a real person.
[18:15]I don't think Aunt Jemima was ever a real person.
[18:18]And the other one that I know about
[18:20]is the cream of wheat, man, breakfast.
[18:24]Yeah.
[18:25]So, and a lot of people don't know because of the name,
[18:28]but it is rastas.
[18:30]And so far as I understand,
[18:32]I think the image proceeded,
[18:35]at a certain point there was a story
[18:37]that he was based on an actual person,
[18:40]but the image actually proceeds the story.
[18:43]So I'm not sure who would be receiving,
[18:46]do it.
[18:46]I will do some digging into this.
[18:48]But I don't get it.
[18:49]I'll go get it.
[18:50]I know, I just, I don't,
[18:52]there's not a real,
[18:53]I know there's not a real Aunt Jemima.
[18:55]And I'm not sure there might be,
[18:57]there might be, I had, I knew his name,
[18:59]but I would say it wrong.
[19:00]I know that supposedly the cream of wheat,
[19:02]man, that picture was based on a real person,
[19:05]but I'm not sure.
[19:07]So I don't know if anyone's actually been receiving money
[19:11]for the use of these images.
[19:13]Okay. Well, let's put that point aside
[19:15]in case I'm not interested wrong.
[19:17]I'm not just totally impossible.
[19:18]And talk about even the fact that the images are coming off.
[19:23]I, what do you think?
[19:24]Let's just talk about that.
[19:26]Okay.
[19:26]Well, that was pretty wild, right?
[19:29]Because they have the book come out the year
[19:32]that they're supposed to be retired
[19:35]after in Aunt Jemima and Rastas's case
[19:38]more than 100 years.
[19:41]So for me, it was, it was of interesting
[19:45]for personal reasons
[19:46]because part of the reason why I wrote the book
[19:50]had to do with things that were going on in the country
[19:54]around 2013, 2014.
[20:00]So the whole, there's a plot, part of the reason Mr.
[20:04]Sitwell, the man who becomes a rib king,
[20:07]is such a loyal servant, is because he's very concerned
[20:11]about these three boys that are working in the house.
[20:14]And he doesn't want them to wind up with no jobs.
[20:18]So he's doing all he can to sort of keep the house stable.
[20:23]There's only so much he can do, of course,
[20:26]but to keep us stable because he sees it as a safe place
[20:30]for them to be, for him to be, and for the employees
[20:34]of this family to be.
[20:35]And he doesn't want them all to wind up without jobs.
[20:38]But his primary preoccupation is these three boys.
[20:42]And that was very much inspired by,
[20:46]at that time, there was a lot of talk
[20:48]about the vulnerability of African American children
[20:53]to racial violence.
[20:54]And sort of specifically, I think I was thinking
[20:58]about the reaction to Trayvon Martin's, what happened with him
[21:03]and the emergence of the Black Lives Matter
[21:06]as like a slogan, right, or a hashtag.
[21:09]And so that also just the circumstances
[21:13]that there were all these protests last summer.
[21:16]And that as a result of that,
[21:19]you would have this specific response
[21:22]to images that have been in place for 100 years.
[21:27]Like that now we need to deal with this.
[21:29]And we recognize that there is a problem
[21:32]or that they speak to a wider context
[21:34]that there's clearly a problem that needs to be dealt with.
[21:38]So the whole thing for me personally
[21:40]in terms of what inspired the book
[21:42]and the wider context of things going on
[21:45]when the book is being published
[21:47]was very interesting to me.
[21:49]Because I was responding really to sort of,
[21:52]it's almost like the opposite, you know what I mean?
[21:54]But if the relationship between the two for me
[21:58]was being manifest as the book.
[22:00]Because I think I was really struck by,
[22:04]for as much as things have changed over 100 years,
[22:09]that there are so many things that have not changed
[22:12]and that if you, in terms of the level of anxiety
[22:16]or worry about the safety of your children,
[22:21]do these sort of external things that are going on
[22:25]and has nothing really to do with who your children
[22:27]actually are, right?
[22:29]And that's part of why I wrote that.
[22:31]It was in response to a contemporary context
[22:35]that was sort of manifesting itself
[22:37]by a fixation on these images on cream of weed
[22:41]and on Jemima that they're just there.
[22:44]And it's like a through line
[22:46]that people don't really pay attention to.
[22:48]So yeah, so it was kind of, it seems,
[22:51]it was very, for me personally, it was very interesting
[22:55]that the sort of the dynamics that inspired
[22:59]in large part writing the book
[23:01]would sort of have this opposite manifestation
[23:04]around the time the book was being published.
[23:07]Does that make sense?
[23:08]Enough.
[23:09]Okay.
[23:10]I'm a good.
[23:11]That's like all you have here.
[23:13]So most of you are so far.
[23:15]Oh, that's good.
[23:17]Okay.
[23:18]Yes, it makes perfect sense.
[23:20]Okay.
[23:20]And wait, can we go back to what you said at the very beginning
[23:23]about your own relationship with food and allergy?
[23:26]Oh.
[23:28]Tell me about that.
[23:29]So what types of allergies and what is your relationship
[23:32]with food like that you would want it to play out on
[23:35]a, you know, national level inside this book?
[23:39]No, no, but I'm just,
[23:41]the book, you know, in my conscious mind
[23:44]was a very separate thing.
[23:46]It's just, some people have pointed that out to me
[23:48]that I have like, I don't, I can't eat,
[23:51]I don't eat red mean, I don't.
[23:53]I can't eat wheat and I can't eat dairy.
[23:57]I can't eat.
[23:58]So there's just so much that actually tastes good
[24:02]is like off limits to me for the most part.
[24:05]But I mean, in my conscious mind,
[24:08]that was a totally separate thing.
[24:11]But it just is kind of funny because I, you know,
[24:16]there's so much that actually tastes good
[24:18]that I can't eat and I'm talking about like delicious sauces
[24:22]and foods and stuff like that.
[24:24]And it is kind of funny.
[24:26]Yeah.
[24:27]Well, anytime I try to really like watch it,
[24:29]I'm like, well, I should really just cut out like wheat
[24:31]and dairy.
[24:32]So, you know, you have a leg up on,
[24:35]that's probably why you're such a trip.
[24:37]But it's different if it's like a choice.
[24:40]Do you know what I mean?
[24:41]Like, I feel like I've maybe,
[24:42]if I made like a committed decision,
[24:44]like I'm not going to eat these things for, you know,
[24:47]health or whatever, that would be different
[24:50]than all of a sudden you can't eat these things.
[24:53]I don't know.
[24:54]It's very weird.
[24:55]I seem to develop a new allergy every time I have children.
[24:59]So that's sort of how they like mark there.
[25:04]I don't know what it is.
[25:06]Every time it is, because it's not seriously,
[25:08]every time I have a child, I developed another food allergy.
[25:13]I developed some food allergies after my third child.
[25:17]And I was like, oh, what do you mean?
[25:18]I can't eat like strawberries.
[25:20]I eat like a pack a day or I can't eat like all of a sudden.
[25:23]I did this allergy test and they were like,
[25:25]you're pretty much like allergic to food.
[25:27]Like your body is rejecting everything.
[25:29]And here are the 12 things you can't eat.
[25:31]And I was like, what?
[25:32]I can't eat like, who's allergic to carrots?
[25:35]It was like the weirdest thing.
[25:36]But I think mine at least seemed to be going away.
[25:39]And then I was like, well, that's good.
[25:41]So I don't know if you've tested yours out,
[25:43]but I kind of served toously eat a piece of shrimp now
[25:46]and again.
[25:47]And I'm like, I seem to be okay.
[25:48]It's so stupid, but that's great.
[25:50]But yeah, so that's interesting.
[25:52]So that's basically what happened to me.
[25:55]So.
[25:56]And my taste for red meat, not that this is relevant,
[25:58]but I used to eat red meat.
[26:00]And after I had my third child,
[26:03]I can no longer ever eat steak.
[26:05]Like the thought of any kind of meat like that
[26:07]like turns my stomach.
[26:08]Whereas before I had it on like my wedding night.
[26:10]You know what I mean?
[26:11]So, who knows?
[26:12]These weird things that happen to our bodies.
[26:14]It is very strange.
[26:16]Yeah.
[26:17]I should probably investigate more and try to.
[26:19]Yeah.
[26:20]We know what the actual link is, but I don't,
[26:24]but it's a notable thing for me.
[26:26]So I'm glad I'm not glad.
[26:29]But I'm, you know, it's comforting to know
[26:31]I'm not the only one that has this issue.
[26:34]Me too.
[26:35]Actually, I've heard it before
[26:37]that other people have told me that after them as well.
[26:39]Yeah.
[26:40]Well, I wish I had developed analogy to maybe.
[26:43]No, I don't.
[26:43]I don't want to say that.
[26:44]I will say, I take it back.
[26:46]God, I take it back.
[26:47]I didn't say it.
[26:48]It didn't even all come out.
[26:50]Yeah.
[26:51]So do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[26:53]I guess persistence is really,
[26:58]in my case certainly is the key.
[27:00]Yeah, keep writing.
[27:03]I learned so much from writing.
[27:05]I learned so much, you know, every day still from writing.
[27:10]So to write consistently and to just be persistent.
[27:15]Do you know what I mean?
[27:16]Consistent and persistent.
[27:19]Yeah.
[27:19]I think it's, you know, it's hard to,
[27:22]or it's a certain amount of work to, you know,
[27:24]sort of believe that what you're doing is important
[27:27]and valuable.
[27:28]And it's finding a way to sort of hold on
[27:31]to a sense of that is really important as well.
[27:34]I don't know if that's helpful,
[27:36]but it's helpful.
[27:37]It is helpful.
[27:39]It is honest.
[27:40]That's the truth.
[27:41]So you're so funny because you've written,
[27:43]you're like, clearly so bright, right?
[27:44]You have all these degrees and you've written all these books
[27:47]and you're like, so great.
[27:48]And yet you, you're always like, does that make sense?
[27:50]And is that okay?
[27:52]And I'm like, you got it.
[27:53]You, I know, I mean, that's just the way I talk.
[27:57]No, no, it's like, you're like a rock star
[28:00]and you're like, yeah, it's so timid about it.
[28:02]So it's funny.
[28:03]Anyway, well, thank you so much.
[28:05]Thanks for coming on mom's turn to read books.
[28:06]Thanks for this fun half an hour,
[28:08]like flew by for me.
[28:09]So anyway, it was really nice to meet you.
[28:12]Wonderful.
[28:12]Thank you so much.
[28:13]It was nice talking to you as well.
[28:15]Thank you.
[28:15]Congratulations on your book.
[28:16]I'm so excited about it.
[28:18]Thank you.
[28:19]Thank you.
[28:20]All right.
[28:20]Take care.
[28:21]Bye.
[28:22]Bye.
[28:24]Thanks to today's sponsor, chicken soup for the soul,
[28:26]making me time 101 stories about self-care and balance
[28:29]edited by Amy Newmark.
[28:31]And just a reminder, again, please pre-order a copy
[28:34]of my book, Mom's Don't Have Time
[28:36]to A Quarantine Anthology.
[28:38]And go to my website under the anthology tab
[28:42]for the fundraiser.
[28:43]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me for,
[28:46]and I should have mentioned,
[28:48]I'll proceed to go to COVID-19 research.
[28:50]So please join me for the fundraiser.
[28:53]Thanks so much.
[28:54]Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's
[28:56]Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:57]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens,
[29:00]and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:02]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[29:05]and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:07]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[29:12]for the sound editing.
[29:13]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:15]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.