Benjamin Dreyer, Dreyer's English (Adapted for Young Readers)
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[3:36]within these essays. Benjamin dryer is vice president executive managing editor and copy chief
[3:42]of Random House. He began his publishing career as a freelance proofreader and copy editor,
[3:47]joining Random House as a production editor in 1993. He has copy edited books by such authors
[3:52]as Eel Doctoro, David Ebershoff, Frank Rich and Elizabeth Shroud as well as Let Me Tell You,
[3:58]a volume of previously uncollected work by Shirley Jackson. A graduate of Northwestern University,
[4:03]he lives in New York City. The book we're talking about today is dryers English adapted for
[4:07]young readers. And of course, he's also written the best selling book dryers English. Welcome,
[4:12]Benjamin. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books. Thank you for having
[4:16]me. Happy Friday. Oh, yeah. Oh, my allowed to say happy Friday. Okay. And I'll try to release this
[4:22]on a Friday. Now I have, now I have a vision. I have to remember that. Well, thank you for adapting
[4:29]your magnum opus on grammar for younger readers because now I have two seventh graders,
[4:34]and I am going to park a copy in each of their rims and hope that maybe they will stop only
[4:39]emailing with emojis and all sorts of other stuff as you lament it in your book.
[4:44]Tell me about adapting your book for young readers and what made you write all these books
[4:48]to begin with? Well, to start with the original version of the book, I had just gotten it into my
[4:54]head. There was one New Year's Eve. We were out in Los Angeles. We were having dinner, and I made
[4:59]a New Year's resolution that I was going to start to write a little bit every day, and I hadn't
[5:03]written it in very long time. I had been doing, of course, a lot of copy editing work for years,
[5:08]and I find copy editing hugely satisfying. I think that maybe some people have the idea that
[5:17]editors and copy editors are frustrated writers, but it's a different thing. It's just a completely
[5:23]different thing. But I had loved doing it, but I had done writing many years before to sort of
[5:29]stopped, and I made this New Year's resolution that I was going to start to write. I was just writing
[5:34]a little bit every day, whatever came into my mind. But, of course, as a person who's worked in
[5:40]publishing for years, the idea of writing into thin air seemed sort of peculiar. It's like,
[5:47]so think of a project, to think of something you might actually like to do, and I thought
[5:52]I would like to write a book about copy editing. I would like to write a book about what I do.
[5:57]I am not always the champion of the right what you know idea, but it's not the worst idea on earth either.
[6:06]I think it depends on what you know. Exactly. So I got into my head that I wanted to write this book,
[6:13]and in a not very long amount of time ended up under contract to my own publishing house,
[6:19]to random house. And a few years later, a lot longer than I thought it was going to take a lot
[6:24]longer than everybody thought it was going to take. There was a book, and that book was published
[6:31]actually, it'll be two years ago at the end of this month. Wow. Okay. And it's in like,
[6:37]it's zillions printing, basically. It's either in its zillion printing or it's 11th printing.
[6:42]Whatever. Same difference in publishing. We call it zillion. And the idea of adapting the book
[6:49]for younger readers was I must confess not my idea. It was the idea of the publishers of this new
[6:55]edition of the book. And I thought it seemed like a really fun idea. And so we embarked on this.
[7:02]Now, I'm going to say I had a lot of help because I would not all on my own have known what to do.
[7:11]It was like, do you want it shorter? Do you want it maybe a little less salty? And it's turned
[7:16]out to be both of those things. But there were any number of ways where we worked on making it
[7:23]appropriate. And one hopes a little bit more sort of inviting and appealing to younger readers,
[7:30]changing some of the cited examples of books and authors. And just trying to make it friendlier
[7:37]to a younger class of reader without making it condescending or patronizing. It's still, I mean,
[7:45]it's still me. It's still my voice. It still sounds like me. And I think that I kind of revel
[7:52]in the idea that I think it's a pretty sophisticated book still. And I'm hoping that the readers
[7:59]who come to it will find things in it that they can make good use of. I mean, as was the case
[8:05]with the original version of the book where I did say this is, you know, this is not a primer.
[8:10]This is not an exhaustive book about everything you need to know about everything. It is about
[8:16]subjects where I feel like I have something to bring to the table. So I am grateful in advance
[8:23]for all of the work that English teachers and parents have done for the readers of this new
[8:28]edition of the book. I hope talking them through a lot of the rudiments so that I can come in with
[8:32]some things that I think are helpful to people who want to write to people who enjoy this sort of
[8:40]thing. Well, I also think it's not just for, I mean, I know you say it's adapted for younger readers,
[8:45]but this is like a really good thing even for adults who just maybe they don't have your book.
[8:50]Maybe they're your books in that shelf and they want to have the jealous look closer because
[8:54]they're like, wait, what about that comma? And do I put the comma before the quotes or after the
[8:59]I think my favorite line of your book is in the beginning when you're talking directly to younger
[9:04]readers and being like, I know that you think you know how to write, but just wait for it. You
[9:09]might be talking to people who aren't like the people you know right now. Like there might be
[9:13]time in your life where you have to apply for a job or do any of these grown-up things and
[9:18]language might come in handy. So you said it in a very funny way. So if that's the saltiness
[9:22]you referred to, I liked it. And I just, you know, I don't know that it is possible to inspire
[9:30]an affection for reading or writing out of thin air. I mean, I think that there's an audience
[9:36]for this book that is not simply going to be parents buying copies and sticking it under the
[9:43]noses of their children. I'm hoping that younger people who were as enchanted by the written
[9:48]word as I was, you know, virtually from the dawn of my consciousness, we'll find something useful
[9:54]here. And something fun. I mean, I like to think that the original version of the book is fun.
[10:00]I think that this new version of the book is fun.
[10:02]You mentioned in the book, The Sign that hung over the bakery
[10:06]store where you got your hall of rolls every week
[10:08]and how terrible the great grammar was.
[10:11]And that was your sort of origin story
[10:12]for your career in copy editing.
[10:14]Tell me a little bit about that.
[10:16]And also just more about getting started in this world
[10:18]and how you knew you loved language so much.
[10:21]All right.
[10:22]So I always say in the book that the story of my mother
[10:27]understanding me to this bakery, to buy rolls
[10:30]or black and whites or whatever,
[10:31]needed to be brought home.
[10:32]I would say I'd bike up to the bakery.
[10:34]But there was this sign in the bakery that said,
[10:37]try our rug a lock.
[10:39]They're the best in quotation marks.
[10:42]And I remember just sort of staring at it.
[10:46]Either then I have the notion that to quotation marks
[10:48]around something indicated that what you are saying
[10:52]lack the level of earnestness.
[10:54]And I like to say that that's my origin story.
[10:57]That's how I became at the age of 10, a copy editor,
[11:02]even if I didn't get around to starting to do that
[11:04]until decades later.
[11:05]But the real thing, truly, my origin story is.
[11:10]And I remember asking my mother about this
[11:13]while I was working on the book.
[11:16]I said, I don't remember your teaching me how to read.
[11:22]I know that by the time I got to kindergarten,
[11:24]I was already reading.
[11:26]But I don't remember you teaching me to read.
[11:29]And she said, I never taught you to read.
[11:33]I read to you.
[11:34]And at a certain point, you started reading.
[11:38]And I'm not unique in that.
[11:42]I have heard variations on this story from a number of people.
[11:45]But I do still think about that sort of magical thing
[11:50]that happens in a brain associated with language,
[11:55]but not merely imitating that we hear when other people
[11:59]are talking.
[12:00]But to suddenly recognize, as sound and symbol,
[12:05]unite that this stuff on the page has mean it.
[12:11]And I've always read incessantly.
[12:16]I was the traditional kid with his nose buried in a book.
[12:19]So yeah, and as to my getting into this professionally,
[12:24]when I got out of college, when I graduated from college,
[12:28]I just sort of embarked on this wonderful career
[12:30]of not doing very much at all.
[12:32]And I liked it.
[12:35]I liked going to double features.
[12:37]I liked going to the zoo in Chicago.
[12:40]I liked working in restaurants and bars
[12:42]so that I had cash in my pocket.
[12:44]I had your mom feel about that.
[12:46]You know, I think that they were, my parents were sort
[12:49]of indulged in that regard.
[12:51]I mean, they had never been the type to say,
[12:55]you must do this.
[12:57]And I had been pretty self motivating
[13:01]through the 12 years of basic school and the four years
[13:03]of college.
[13:04]And maybe after that, I just sort of had enough for a while.
[13:08]And so I just sort of wandered around and amused myself.
[13:13]But at a certain point, you do kind of recognize
[13:15]that you need to grow up.
[13:16]And I was a bit at a loss.
[13:18]I didn't really know what I wanted to do.
[13:20]And I had a friend who was a published writer.
[13:23]And I said, there has to be something
[13:26]in publishing I can do.
[13:28]And he introduced me to the person who hired me
[13:32]to do my first proofreading jobs.
[13:34]And from learning how to proofread, which I sort of faked
[13:39]my way into, I learned then how to copy at it.
[13:43]Because when you're proofreading,
[13:44]you're looking at a manuscript on which copy editing
[13:47]has occurred.
[13:48]So I'm seeing this sort of dialogue that's
[13:50]going on between copy editor and the author.
[13:51]And I found it very interesting.
[13:54]And what I found as I was doing this work,
[13:56]this proofreading work, and then after that copy editing work,
[14:00]was that I had a really good instinct for the work,
[14:06]but based almost not at all on knowledge of it.
[14:11]Real knowledge of it, terms.
[14:13]I mean, my education in English language
[14:15]was to put it nicely rudimentary.
[14:18]So I had to learn all this stuff.
[14:19]I had to learn what a subjunctive was.
[14:22]I had to learn how semicolons worked.
[14:24]I had to learn all of this.
[14:25]But the funny thing really is that when you're doing the work,
[14:28]when you are copy editing for a while,
[14:31]you learn it all, and then you go back
[14:35]to relying on your ear and your eye.
[14:38]It's good to know what things are called.
[14:40]But ultimately, it's a conversation between you and a writer,
[14:44]and it's about hearing the words and seeing the words,
[14:47]and getting them to work as effectively as they possibly can.
[14:51]I feel like I learned most of the stuff, not in school.
[14:55]But when I had to study for one of those achievement tests
[14:58]to get into college, and you get this study, guys,
[15:01]I feel like that's when you learn.
[15:02]I feel like sometimes in school, as much as they teach you,
[15:05]and I went to really great schools all the way through blah,
[15:08]blah, blah, blah.
[15:09]I don't stop and say, then I know you shouldn't say you're anxious for this.
[15:13]You should say you're eager to do that, and all these things.
[15:15]And for whatever reason, when I learned all that stuff,
[15:18]when it was all spelled out to me, it stuck in my head more than anything.
[15:22]Forget all the other subjects and everything.
[15:25]But those are the things that never my husband's like,
[15:28]oh, I was really anxious to do this.
[15:29]I was like, no, you're eager to do this.
[15:32]It bothers me so much.
[15:33]So you have your whole chapter on pet peeves, and I'm like, yes,
[15:36]these are just a lot of me so much for no good reason.
[15:41]But I don't know why.
[15:42]I mean, there is grammar, obviously, taught in school,
[15:44]but I just feel like they just miss a little bit of this stuff.
[15:48]I mean, well, there's been a while since I was in school.
[15:53]There's so much going on.
[15:55]There's so much to teach.
[15:57]There's so much to learn.
[15:58]There's so much to absorb.
[15:59]There's only so much time.
[16:01]Yes, very.
[16:01]And yes, of course, I remember being taught the difference
[16:05]between a subject and a predicate,
[16:08]the difference between an adjective and an adverb.
[16:11]And basically, from my teachers who were my favorite teachers
[16:17]in elementary school and high school and in college,
[16:20]the ones that I appreciated most were simply
[16:23]the ones who helped me love to read, who
[16:28]were able to convey the excitement and the joy
[16:32]of what you can learn in reading.
[16:35]And not only learn, I mean, reading
[16:38]is not just for learning.
[16:40]Reading is for art.
[16:42]Reading is for the love of it.
[16:44]Reading is for the pleasure of it.
[16:46]But unless you're a pro, unless you're
[16:50]doing this for a living, you do get to retain for your entire life.
[16:54]I hope the pleasure of simply reading a book,
[16:57]for the pleasure of simply reading a book.
[17:00]So do you still enjoy the pleasure of simply reading books
[17:04]despite all the books that you work on?
[17:06]You know, I do.
[17:08]I do.
[17:09]And I have always been happy when the workday is over,
[17:12]because I'm still working for Random House.
[17:14]And I have time to read things that are entirely divorced
[17:18]from my job.
[17:20]I have certainly found in the last year,
[17:23]since the descent on us of the plague,
[17:26]that I know I am not unique in this,
[17:29]my attention span is a little diminished.
[17:32]Sometimes I watch a lot of movies on TV now.
[17:37]But I do still read, but I find myself rereading things.
[17:42]There's a great pleasure.
[17:43]There's always been a great pleasure for me,
[17:44]and returning to books that I love.
[17:46]But sometimes that's really all I've got the strength for.
[17:50]What a big rereader.
[17:51]I read read a book I loved.
[17:53]Like in my 20s recently, it's called Drinking, A Love
[17:55]Story by Caroline Knapp.
[17:57]And I just, and I was like, did you read that?
[17:58]Anyway, I loved it.
[18:00]I loved it when I came out.
[18:00]I was like, oh my gosh, I love this one.
[18:02]Then when she passed away, I was like, so sad.
[18:04]Like it was like a friend who passed away.
[18:06]Anyway, then I was like, well, I haven't read this in two decades.
[18:09]I wonder why I loved it so much.
[18:10]And then I went back and read it.
[18:11]And of course, you have like a new set of life experiences
[18:14]that you bring to it, right?
[18:16]So you interpret it in a whole new way.
[18:17]And I was like, well, I don't know.
[18:18]It's just different.
[18:19]You just relate to things completely differently.
[18:21]But maybe that's the magic in rereading.
[18:22]I don't know.
[18:23]You know, I mean, it can be.
[18:24]If it's a thing that you like to do, I mean,
[18:26]and I've always been like a crazy rereader.
[18:28]I just like to go back to books that I love
[18:31]and just go through them all again.
[18:33]One of the things that's interesting now,
[18:35]and one of the things that sort of plays into my love
[18:37]of rereading, is that I now work on my next book,
[18:41]which is to be called, unless anybody changes their mind,
[18:44]which is to be called Dryer's Fiction.
[18:46]Ooh.
[18:47]And in it, I am simply taking passages from works of fiction
[18:52]that I deeply love and trying to explain
[18:56]from a copy editorial point of view why they work,
[19:00]and how they work.
[19:01]And I hope that people will enjoy it just for the sake
[19:04]of seeing things kind of broken down into their parts.
[19:08]But also my intention is to,
[19:10]it's like, what can this teach you as a writer?
[19:12]If you happen to be a writer, what can we learn from?
[19:16]And so it's gonna be a lot of books that I love.
[19:18]So what can we learn from Shirley Jackson?
[19:21]Like, you don't want that in my favorite writer.
[19:23]You know, what can we learn from the haunting of Hill House?
[19:25]What can we learn from Marilyn Robinson's housekeeping?
[19:29]I was gonna say, from Edith Wardens, the house of birth.
[19:32]I seem to like books that have houses,
[19:34]but so I'm now I'm going through my whole library
[19:39]and going back to these books and rereading them
[19:41]and finding things in them that I hadn't necessarily noticed
[19:45]before.
[19:46]That's really interesting.
[19:48]And I'm having a very, I'm so far,
[19:49]I'm having a very good time.
[19:50]Oh, I can't wait to read that, that's so cool.
[19:52]I mean, you touch on some of the things in this book
[19:54]of like what makes a good description
[19:56]and how to introduce people in fiction a little more.
[19:59]But.
[20:00]to go into past passages. Essentially copy editing, it's almost like you're the makeup artist
[20:05]of the talented celebrity. They have talent already, but they're going to look so much better
[20:12]once you've had a chance. That's great. That's great. I love that, because that is how I think of it.
[20:18]It's like my job, as I like to say, is to help and author make their book into the best possible
[20:26]version of itself. That it can be. It's about polishing and refining and maybe just sort of
[20:34]switching things around a little bit. Once a manuscript's got going into copy editing, the writer
[20:41]has presumably spent a very long time with it. As I certainly learned when I was in the editing
[20:47]process of my book, at a certain point, your eyes just rolled back into your head at the very
[20:54]site of their own work. I just can't see this anymore. I need somebody who's not me to look at it
[21:03]and tell me where it's not working, where it can be better. What I learned as a copy editor,
[21:12]learning that my job is to assist writers with respect and with a sense of, I don't know,
[21:19]like the word humility, but a sense of, I'm here to help you that, you know, no copy editor can
[21:25]make a bad book into a good book, but you can always take a good book and make it a little better
[21:32]and you can make a great book. Well, it's great already, but let's see what happens when we just
[21:37]sort of tighten the screws a little bit. Yes, I love that. Well, maybe I'll send you a little makeup
[21:43]kit so you can remember. Also, in the beginning of this book, when you talk about the one
[21:51]intensifiers and throat clears and like all the words you should try not to use like really and
[21:55]actually on stuff, I am going to take this challenge because I like to write for fun myself. So I
[21:59]am going to try for like the next two weeks to not use any of these words and that is a big challenge
[22:05]because I feel like I used them a lot, especially just and of course and whatever. Anyway,
[22:10]so I'm taking your challenge to heart. I'm going to try it. You know, I mean, and the thing is it's
[22:15]like there's a reason why I put that very beginning of the book because people seem to find it
[22:20]highly amusing, but also it's just it's just it's so so so so so so so it's so simple. It's here are
[22:28]some words and here are some words that don't accomplish much and let's see if we can do without
[22:38]you know, the thing that I always as I always do say is a, I'm not telling you how to talk
[22:44]because if you tried to regulate your own speech and stopped every time you were about to
[22:50]utter the word very or rather or actually you would just stop talking and that's not a good thing.
[22:55]But even when you're writing, I mean, you can write those words down, but if you're actually
[23:01]writing something, the intention of letting somebody else see it, when you go back through it,
[23:06]the second time is when you can is when you can prove is when you can cut things out that
[23:11]aren't helping you at all. I think one thing that's very important for anybody who's writing is that
[23:18]if you if you turn on the editorial switch too soon, if you turn on the editorial switch when
[23:25]you are in the act of composing, you will paralyze yourself and that's not good. So do what you're
[23:32]doing. You know, I mean, I don't write thoughtlessly. I don't go into a trance in three hours
[23:37]later. There's 2,000 words that I'm like, oh, where does come from? You know, I write consciously
[23:43]and I do tweak a little bit while I'm composing, but you just have sort of let yourself write.
[23:48]You can always fix it later. I think you're so right. I think people just get caught up and
[23:54]is the sentence right? Can I make the sentence better and then they don't go to the next sentence
[23:59]next thing. You know, five or five years go by and you know, they have nothing. Nothing. They're like,
[24:03]why can't I write a book? But you're absolutely wrong. The wrong switches got turned on.
[24:07]Yes. Maybe you're more like a mechanic. I don't know. I'm like, I think of it and I was being a
[24:13]cobbler. Okay. All right. It's a it's a crap. Yes. It's a piano tuner, right? A piano tuner. Yes.
[24:22]We'll just keep going with these. Well, you've already given so much good advice. You have any
[24:27]parting advice for everybody who's listening. Maybe something that they didn't know or something.
[24:32]I'm just going to say that that I think that one of the best things that anybody who is writing
[24:39]can do when they are trying to figure out what's working and what's not working is
[24:46]read your writing aloud. You'll hear what's wrong. And I also think that there's always that
[24:52]there is much to be learned for for writers. There's there's two things you can do as a as a
[24:58]budding or even not so budding writer. If you really want to break things down and learn things,
[25:03]A, read somebody else's work aloud. You know, your own work, somebody else's work. But an experiment
[25:10]that I tried once and I learned so much from it is take something you really love,
[25:16]play the book in front of you, open up a word file, and type it all out like a short story
[25:24]or or a chapter. The art, the art, the act of recreating somebody else's writing with your own
[25:31]hands with your own fingers. You'll be amazed at how much you can learn and think it's a great way
[25:38]to to meet somebody else's writing and to help you figure out what the what the magic might be.
[25:45]Benjamin dryer recommends plagiarism more 11. That's an excellent tip. I have not heard that before
[25:53]and that seems like a really fun thing to do. I mean, why not? That's really interesting. Very cool.
[25:59]Well, thank you so much. There's so much I didn't get a chance to ask you, but it was lovely to
[26:02]meet you and thank you again for all your tips and for putting a lot of debates to bed by having
[26:10]the actual answers out there in a book, particularly when I can share with other people in my family.
[26:15]So thanks. All right. We'll have a great weekend.
[26:21]You too. Thanks for sending time with me. I'll see you. Okay. Bye. Bye.
[26:25]Thanks to today's sponsor, chicken soup for the soul, making me time 101 stories about self-care
[26:30]and balance edited by Amy Newmark. And just a reminder again, please pre-order a copy of my book,
[26:36]Moms Don't Have Time To, a quarantine anthology. And go to my website under the anthology tab
[26:43]for the fundraiser. And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me for and I should have mentioned
[26:49]all proceeds go to COVID-19 research. So please join me for the fundraiser. Thanks so much.
[26:55]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[26:59]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign
[27:04]up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors
[27:09]on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[27:14]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.