Anna Malaika Tubbs, THE THREE MOTHERS
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[3:48]Hey everybody, yesterday started our February book blast. Sometimes I end up with just so many
[3:54]amazing episodes that I have to release a whole bunch at once. So today is day two of the February
[4:00]book blast. And today is nonfiction Tuesday. If you missed it yesterday was memoir Monday. And then
[4:05]we have literary fiction coming on Wednesday, new novels Thursday, and family theme memoirs on Friday.
[4:11]So stick with us for the whole week. Anna Malaika Tubbs is the author of The Three Mothers,
[4:17]How the Mothers of Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin shaped a nation. She is a
[4:23]Cambridge PhD candidate in sociology, a Gates scholar, and the first partner of Stockton, California.
[4:29]After graduating Phi Beta Kappa from Stanford University with a BA in anthropology,
[4:34]Anna received a master's from the University of Cambridge in multidisciplinary
[4:38]gender studies, an educator, DEI consultant, and writer outside of the Academy.
[4:44]She lives with her husband at the mayor of Stockton, Michael Tubbs, and their son, Michael Malaika.
[4:49]Welcome Anna. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books.
[4:53]Thank you for having me. It's really an honor. It's an honor to talk to you. You're such a genius. This
[4:59]book was like amazing. Your book is called The Three Mothers, How the Mothers of Martin Luther King
[5:05]Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin shaped a nation. Yes. Please tell listeners what this is about,
[5:12]because even though this cover is amazing and title is amazing, I still think it's about far more
[5:17]than just those women. This is essentially that, well, you know, I'll let you do it.
[5:22]I know you were doing great. I was like, he's going. Yeah, I know it's about the mothers of
[5:25]Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin, Albert de King, Luis Little, and British
[5:30]Baldwin were their names. But it's also about what they symbolize in terms of Black American
[5:35]womanhood throughout an entire century of American history and what they lived to witness,
[5:41]but also what they live to inspire through not only raising their children, but also through their
[5:46]teachings outside of their families and their communities. And in the many ways that they still
[5:52]inspire us today, even though so many people don't know their names. So it's all about
[5:56]telling their story, taking them from the margins, putting them in the center away from the shadows
[6:02]into the spotlight like they deserve to be all along. It's amazing. But you also go back and give
[6:07]us so much rich history of so many places, people, generations. I mean, some of the things,
[6:15]even from something like Deal Island and how that started or how like the immigration from one
[6:20]country to another. And it's all like you painted such a picture of history in general.
[6:26]Like when I was reading it, I was thinking, okay, well, this is like the textbook. I mean, that sounds
[6:31]negative because textbooks are terrible. But well, now I feel that if you're a textbook writer,
[6:36]I don't mean your book is terrible. I just mean it should be a requirement that they're not
[6:40]usually as readable. It's a little harder to get through them. Yes, required reading on the history
[6:45]of Black America in general, especially from the lens of women. But still, it's like,
[6:50]it was just so, you have so much information in here. And yet you wove it together
[6:56]in a narrative form to make it highly digestible. So that was a big goal of mine. It was an
[7:02]important one. And I wanted it to be a text that people could refer to in terms of learning about
[7:07]American history through this perspective of three Black mothers. And how that changed is the way
[7:12]we view events, like the Great Depression, thinking about the Great Migration, actually getting
[7:16]to know participants in it, all of these things that we think about all the world, both of the
[7:21]world wars. There's so many different things that they live to see multiple different presidents
[7:26]and the way their policies affected them differently in each of the three cases because of their
[7:29]own access to resources and education. I think it allows you to better understand history.
[7:35]So I appreciate you taking note of that. Yeah, it's great. It's like people are always like,
[7:40]we should rewrite history and you did. So there you go. Thank you. Thank you. And I like how you
[7:46]threw yourself in the mix. You know, another way that you made this book so relatable, like
[7:51]literally like starting by talking about whether or not you're getting your periods. Like that is like,
[7:55]I'm like, oh, okay, wait a minute. This book is not what I thought it was going to be. Like she's
[7:59]open. Like the author is open and like talking to me like a friend and now she's going to tell me a
[8:05]story and teach me. And it's like when a great teacher stands up, it's like, I don't know.
[8:10]And of course, it's probably what you're doing. You're getting your PhD and everything, right?
[8:13]So like, what is your, are you trying to be a professor? What's the goal of there?
[8:17]You know, so interesting when you said the comment about textbooks earlier because I agree in many
[8:23]there you can be a little boring is the only thing. I definitely respect them for what they are and
[8:27]there's such important tools. And for all of my, you know, academic colleagues who do want to be
[8:31]professors right away. Incredible. No, but for me, I'm actually not. I'm much more interested
[8:36]in public intellectual work. And that's why I wanted to produce a book that was very readable,
[8:40]very accessible, while also being a tool that could be used for education. But just in a way,
[8:46]that's more fun. And that you can connect with and it feels personal because I believe that Black
[8:52]feminist theory, gender theory, race, critical race theory, all were meant to help us better
[8:57]understand our world and to survive our world and change it. And it wasn't meant to be
[9:02]exclusive or kept within the academy. But I am grateful for my time in the academy. I am
[9:08]definitely a nerd. I love my degrees. I loved doing all the research to earn them. But it isn't
[9:13]where I necessarily want to stay for now. I'm much more interested in talking to general audiences
[9:20]about what they think and contributing to current conversations because so much is happening
[9:25]so quickly. And sometimes when you're an academic and you're only talking to other academics,
[9:30]you feel like you're kind of missing out because it takes years to develop certain articles
[9:35]and get them published. And then it's only other academics who are reading them. And that's just
[9:40]not currently what I'm interested in doing. Maybe down the line, I would become a professor. But
[9:44]I love just talking to everybody about what they think. And that's what I'm most excited about
[9:49]with the book, seeing all these different people get from it and what they gain from it.
[9:54]Oh my gosh, you're going to have the most amazing conversations. I made it so much in here.
[9:58]I was hoping I could just read this one.
[10:00]that I particularly loved.
[10:02]I mean, it's all the way at the end, I'm sorry,
[10:03]but it's part of our lives will not be erased.
[10:05]And you said, I cannot fully express
[10:07]just how much hurt and frustration the erasure
[10:10]and misrecognition of women and mothers,
[10:12]especially black women and mothers causes me.
[10:14]In my own life, I've experienced others demeaning me
[10:17]and questioning my abilities simply
[10:19]because I am a black woman.
[10:20]How many times have men threatened my sense of safety,
[10:23]hollering at me from their cars?
[10:25]How many times have I heard I was only given an opportunity
[10:27]because of the color of my skin?
[10:29]How many times has another person's looks or comments
[10:32]tried to make me question my worth?
[10:34]I cannot say there have been too many.
[10:35]I'm reading one more paragraph because I'm sorry.
[10:38]I also cannot tell you how many times people have been
[10:40]surprised by my intellect and my successes
[10:43]because they assume I am dumb
[10:44]and that my biggest accomplishment was marrying my husband.
[10:47]My own work has often been hidden behind his,
[10:50]not for lack of his appreciation,
[10:51]but because we still live in a world
[10:53]where women of color are not fully seen.
[10:55]And then you say now that I'm a mother,
[10:57]this erasure takes place on new levels,
[10:59]I have stood at events right next to my husband
[11:01]while he was congratulated on the birth of his son.
[11:05]And then you keep going on and on from there.
[11:07]But wow, that's super powerful stuff right there.
[11:09]That's amazing.
[11:10]Thank you.
[11:11]I think so many women relate to it and can feel,
[11:14]and I would love to hear your own experiences about as well.
[11:17]But so often we're just, you were taken for granted,
[11:20]especially moms.
[11:21]It's this kind of weird balance of everyone expecting us
[11:25]to do everything and get everything done.
[11:27]If we don't then we're blamed for it,
[11:28]but we're never thanked for being the ones
[11:30]who are running the operation in so many different ways.
[11:33]And of course that's different in different families,
[11:35]but in general, women are underappreciated.
[11:39]We see this in the way that we're treated
[11:41]and lack of safety and general toxic masculinity.
[11:46]So I think part of it was adding my own personal experience
[11:48]to that so that people understand why this book mattered
[11:51]so much to me,
[11:53]but also to be someone who's saying I see you.
[11:55]I see all of us who are going through this,
[11:57]and I hope that this book can be a part of changing that.
[12:00]Even your dedication, I will like started getting the chills.
[12:03]Like, wait, hold on, I have to read this too.
[12:05]And then I'll stop reading.
[12:06]No, I love it.
[12:06]This is so fun.
[12:07]You said this is for all the mamas.
[12:12]You deserve respect, dignity and recognition.
[12:14]I honor you, I celebrate you, I see you.
[12:18]So I don't know if you were talking to me,
[12:20]but I took it.
[12:21]Yes, we do, so you see your time.
[12:23]I mean, perhaps you're, I mean, I know this is geared.
[12:26]Well, it's not geared towards black mothers,
[12:28]but it's mostly about getting the facts out
[12:31]into the world so that they are seen in a way
[12:34]that they have not been in the past.
[12:35]It truly is all for all the mamas though,
[12:37]and I actually define motherhood even more broadly
[12:40]than biological motherhood.
[12:42]It's so, you know, Patricia Hill Collins calls mother work
[12:45]the kind of work we do that's caring for others,
[12:48]the way we're bringing others up, you know, teachers
[12:51]are doing mother work, doctors, nurses, so many of our essential workers, so it is definitely
[12:56]a celebration, specifically of motherhood, very specifically of black motherhood, but also for all
[13:01]of those that are doing work on behalf of many and who feel unappreciated, feel unseen. And it's
[13:08]our time. We need people to give us the appreciation that we deserve. There is nothing that they're
[13:12]going to lose by giving credit where it's due. Oh, maybe there's some tie in here with my podcast.
[13:18]It's our time, you know, something. And I love how you say that because that's also what I
[13:22]try to say about listening to this podcast, because I don't mean just moms, like they're caretakers
[13:28]in so many ways, shape and form, and not that you even have to be a caretaker, but mom itself,
[13:33]the word is so limiting, whereas it's such a broad spectrum of people caring for others these days. And
[13:39]anyway, content is for whoever wants to ingest it. And I believe it'll find the right home.
[13:45]Yeah, I'm excited about that part of the conversation, too, just thinking of the different ways
[13:49]and the different mothers, especially common in black communities, communities of color.
[13:54]The mother is that you have even outside of your own moms because of this, it takes a village
[13:59]to raise a child mentality and practice and tradition that is so beautiful and wonderful.
[14:04]And it's very kind of Western to do this as like an individual journey that everything falls on
[14:09]the one person and that they shouldn't ask for help or they shouldn't admit what something is
[14:13]is hard for them or even when we're having conversations about postpartum depression.
[14:17]So much of that can be avoided or helped and supported if we have more people around that
[14:23]kind of central figure. But also if we just see her and then so many cases, it's going to be
[14:27]a woman who is not seen, who is not given the supports and resources that she needs, we can really
[14:32]change that and make it easier and it's better for our kids and better for society. I'm all about
[14:37]the more you support women, the better society and communities do. So I also hope that it
[14:42]contributes to that as well. I have a lot of goals for the book. So we'll see how many I
[14:46]have before. You should. You should. I believe it will accomplish a lot. So let's talk about these
[14:51]three mothers in particular. You probably know more now about these women than anyone as you spell
[14:56]out so clearly that, you know, even things like the date that they were born is two different
[15:00]dates for certain of the women and for their birth date and just so much conflicting research
[15:05]because they weren't even deemed worthy of recording in a way. But you went and like must have torn
[15:12]apart every library and like every website looking for everything. Well, first I want to know about
[15:18]like your research and how you did that. But I really want to know, let's maybe let's talk about
[15:22]this first if you don't mind. But these three women who went through so much and overcame so much,
[15:30]I mean, it's unbelievable yet they produce these leaders. So is there anything as a main takeaway
[15:37]for other mothers if you want to raise the leader and someone who can speak their mind and affect
[15:41]change in society? Is there anything you feel like they did that we can all do? Well, there is so
[15:48]much that I could say to answer that question because of course the book is filled with those lessons
[15:53]on how did they do it day to day with all of the challenges that they were facing. But I would say
[16:00]something even though I mean, I like to celebrate their differences even more than what they had
[16:04]in common because of this notion that we try to categorize black women as if we're all the same.
[16:09]and so a big part of the book is celebrating how different all three of the mothers approaches were
[16:13]to accomplishing something that you know in the end we have these three incredible men
[16:17]despite the many differences in their backgrounds. But one thing I think that they all had in common
[16:23]was this combination between both vulnerability and bravery and the way they saw themselves
[16:30]and what they were going to teach their children about themselves and how that allowed their kids
[16:34]to understand humanity better. So to break that down a little bit. So often moms feel that we
[16:39]have to kind of, I don't know, put on this brave face all the time. We can't let our kids see us cry
[16:45]or we can't let them see that we're struggling to do something because we feel like we have to be
[16:50]those superhero moms. But in all three of these cases, they were willing to say, hey, this is difficult
[16:56]for me. You know, they're talking was constantly, you know, worried about Martin Luther King,
[17:00]Jr. going out into the world. That was very real for her. That was her son still, you know,
[17:04]no matter what she wanted him to accomplish, no matter how much she had faith in what God's plan
[17:09]was for him. She worried about her baby. We see it with Brutus Baldwin when she loses her own
[17:14]father. She cries in front of her son. She is able to show some of the things that are difficult
[17:19]for her. But we've little who, I mean, again, like filled with examples of her showing that
[17:26]things could sometimes be very scary. But what do you do in those moments where you have sadness,
[17:31]where you have some fear, where you have some worry, you continue to push forward. You ask for help
[17:36]from others. You form communities around you. And they all were examples of that balance,
[17:42]vulnerability and strength and being, you know, that's whole human being that I think allowed all
[17:49]three men to have a really deep understanding. One of the reasons they were all three incredible
[17:53]orators and organizers was they hadn't understanding a humanity that others did not. And I think
[17:59]a big part of that was that their moms were very willing to be honest with them about their own
[18:04]human condition. Okay. I can do that. It's hard though. It really is. I mean, my son still really
[18:12]young, so I'm not sure he's going to ever get all of my own, you know, emotions and majority of being
[18:18]his mother. But I think that honesty is crucial. And especially with sons when they see women
[18:25]in their full humanity and true light, it can make them better human beings. It's great.
[18:31]Well, it's nothing like getting some parenting advice here. I mean, I want all your parenting advice.
[18:36]Oh my gosh. I mean, if your kid has a rash, you can. I will know what it is. I feel like I need to
[18:44]set up shop like a little corner in my pediatrician's office and just be like, why don't you just
[18:48]come through the triage center here? I will let you know what's going on. And then you can leave.
[18:54]It's hilarious. Yeah. That would be actually really effective. I think for hospitals does have
[18:58]some moms sitting there ready to talk to new moms. Yeah. Maybe I should do that. I actually like I'm on
[19:03]the board of something called the parenting center at Mount Sinai Medical Center. It's a lot of
[19:08]parent education and all that. But I've never thought about just plopping myself down one day and being
[19:12]like, all right, listen. Let me tell you how it is. They're fine. Yeah, they're fine.
[19:18]I mean, my biggest parenting lesson that I feel like I probably say too much is that
[19:22]you don't have as much influence. I think as you think you have. I mean, I think that my kids,
[19:26]each one is born the way that they are and they're also different. And you know, their genes may
[19:32]be the same generally, right? But they're completely different people. And I just am here to sort
[19:38]of like watch them, you know, with my first kids, I was like, you know, on top of them, like,
[19:43]what are you doing? What are you doing? How can I make you better? You know? And at this point,
[19:47]I'm just like, huh? Look at this. You know, my sense like redesigning his room. How about that?
[19:51]Yeah. The creativity. How wonderful. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So,
[19:56]anyway. That's actually even, I mean, to that point with these three moms, they had several
[20:00]for other kids.
[20:00]And we so often only talk about their famous kids,
[20:03]but that's another really cool way to see
[20:05]even how they approach their different kids
[20:07]and their personalities and what they wanted to do
[20:09]with their lives.
[20:11]And I think we can gain a little bit from those lessons as well.
[20:14]There was this show that I used to watch
[20:17]and it was only on for like one or two seasons
[20:18]and then it was canceled.
[20:20]Now I'm gonna forget the name again.
[20:21]Something like Bob and it was about when JFK
[20:25]and his brother Bobby were boys.
[20:27]And it was trying to show like,
[20:29]what did you see in them when they were boys?
[20:31]And it was a lot about their mom
[20:33]and how she was raising them.
[20:34]You should try to get it.
[20:36]Yeah, it feels like it's up my alley.
[20:37]Yeah, it's really, it was so good.
[20:39]And I was like, I am, oh, it's called Jack and Bobby.
[20:41]And I am like the, I feel like the only person
[20:43]who maybe watched it, but I think maybe I was pregnant.
[20:46]There's some reason I was home watching a lot of TV.
[20:49]Anyway, it's worth, it's sort of the same theme.
[20:51]It's like, well, what was it in their childhood?
[20:53]I mean, that's not exactly what you were doing.
[20:55]But you know, it's always so interesting to look back
[20:58]and see, well, could this have been the influence?
[21:00]And what about this and how did she handle that?
[21:02]And or is it in spite of your parents
[21:05]that you end up becoming home?
[21:05]Definitely, that's definitely the case sometimes, for sure.
[21:08]Well, go back to how you dug up all this information
[21:11]and wrote this book, especially you have your child.
[21:13]Your son must be like, what, one and a half or something?
[21:15]Yeah, now he's 15 months.
[21:17]Okay, so like full on toddler mode,
[21:19]he's just running around and talking
[21:22]and has some comparative statements.
[21:23]We have no idea what he's saying,
[21:24]but he's really emphatic.
[21:27]Oh my gosh.
[21:28]It's a really cute stage.
[21:29]How did you do this whole book at the same time?
[21:32]Or you must have done a lot of it before,
[21:34]but do you think about that?
[21:35]Yeah, I started the research before.
[21:37]We were expecting my son and started with my PhD program,
[21:40]but definitely the journey of becoming a mother
[21:43]while moving through the different stages
[21:46]and having my son while I was editing the book,
[21:49]gave me this very rich, deep, personal connection
[21:52]to the three women that I'm really grateful for
[21:55]because motherhood can be an incredibly scary journey
[21:58]as much as it is really exciting,
[22:00]but especially for black women in the United States
[22:03]and seeing what they were able to push through
[22:06]but also the way they were able to transform their communities
[22:09]to better meet their needs,
[22:10]brought me incredible inspiration.
[22:12]But in terms of the nitty gritty of actually finding
[22:15]all of this information around their lives,
[22:17]it was really hard.
[22:19]I say in the book that it was finding a needle
[22:21]and a haystack for every single,
[22:23]even if you just take one paragraph,
[22:26]you'd have to break it down into almost each sentence
[22:28]that I had defined a different fact in order to complete
[22:31]that one paragraph because information about them
[22:34]was so scattered and then there were conflicting documents
[22:38]on what one person said versus another scholar versus
[22:42]all of these things,
[22:43]but that's what adds the complexity of their humanity
[22:45]and it's definitely a challenge that I appreciated,
[22:48]but what frustrated me most was how little there was
[22:52]out there because there's so much more about their lives
[22:55]than I think that I hope maybe the families will be more
[22:58]willing to speak about them now.
[23:00]One of the problems, maybe it's not a problem,
[23:02]but it's a challenge that they wanted to protect their moms.
[23:06]These are three families who had been through
[23:08]so much scrutiny, so much inquisition from different sources
[23:13]or that was scholars or journalists, et cetera.
[23:15]And I definitely felt their need to kind of keep this person
[23:19]who was so important in their life guarded
[23:22]from that kind of scrutiny.
[23:24]And I am excited though now that they're able to see
[23:26]what the product was and what I wanted to do all along
[23:28]that they feel proud of it and they're happy
[23:31]with what I was able to do that hopefully
[23:34]that will allow us to hear even more stories
[23:36]about these three women,
[23:37]but so much to that was going through all of the men's works
[23:40]first, then anything that people had written about the men,
[23:43]which there is like so much, it's incredible.
[23:46]Every single year there's a new book about one of these men,
[23:48]which I find incredibly brave by these writers
[23:52]because what else is there to say?
[23:53]It's like really, I don't know how brave they are to go in
[23:57]and say I have a whole new thing about these three men
[24:00]that we've already learned so much about,
[24:02]but there's nothing wrong with that.
[24:03]I just hope we can have multiple books about the moms as well.
[24:05]And taking them, like I said earlier from the margins
[24:08]and bring them to the center.
[24:09]So if there was just like a small mention,
[24:11]I would take that and I had to really like kind of go away
[24:14]from my computer.
[24:14]I had poster boards all over my walls
[24:16]and these like really huge timelines
[24:19]and I was filling them in with post-it notes.
[24:21]And then I could see where I had really big gaps,
[24:23]which actually tended to be towards the beginning
[24:26]of the women's lives before they were married.
[24:28]You know, before a man made their life worth recording really
[24:31]unfortunately, that's kind of how it appeared
[24:34]and what it symbolized and I had this huge gap between
[24:37]like maybe they were born this year,
[24:39]but we know for sure they married their husband not here.
[24:42]And this is when they had their favorite sons.
[24:44]So going back and filling that in with historical context
[24:47]and going really like on a deep dive into Grenada's history
[24:50]and deal Island's history and Atlanta's history.
[24:53]So that's kind of how I just filled it all out
[24:55]and took little parts for other people had said, you know,
[24:58]like Maya Angelou had described for this Baldwin.
[25:01]So finding her name in one of my Andrew's speeches
[25:04]and you know, learning about, she was really short
[25:07]and that Maya Angelou had to bend to half her height
[25:09]to kiss her on the forehead.
[25:11]So that was kind of how it all came together
[25:13]and then I called different historians
[25:15]and around the country.
[25:16]I was also able to work with some researchers
[25:19]at different sites who helped me find first certificates
[25:22]and marriage certificates and doctors notes
[25:25]even from some scholars who studied the men
[25:28]and had this like archives that no one had asked
[25:30]to see before about the moms
[25:32]and they just kind of shared those with me.
[25:34]So it was an incredible journey, really difficult
[25:37]but also a really beautiful one at the same time.
[25:39]Well, in a fabulous final product.
[25:42]I feel like, and maybe this is already in the works
[25:44]but shouldn't this be like a three-part series on HBO
[25:47]or something like that?
[25:48]I would love that.
[25:49]I really would.
[25:51]There's definitely some interest in it.
[25:52]I do have a film and TV agent.
[25:54]So we will see how that goes.
[25:55]The way I kind of pictured is like, yeah,
[25:57]Netflix limited series, like maybe two episodes
[26:00]for each mom and just getting to better understand
[26:04]again what we were saying at the beginning,
[26:05]the context of US history.
[26:06]Like that's the thing that we have next in
[26:08]because all three of these moms never met each other.
[26:10]Their sons would meet each other eventually,
[26:12]which I think is really a beautiful part of the book as well.
[26:15]But to see how something might happen nationally
[26:19]and then you get the scene through that mother's life,
[26:21]I think would be really beautiful.
[26:22]So we'll see what happens.
[26:24]Okay, fine.
[26:25]It won't be two parts.
[26:26]It won't be three parts.
[26:27]I've now expanded my order to perhaps
[26:30]the six, seven or eight part miniseries.
[26:33]Or even a musical.
[26:34]I think of musical musical.
[26:35]Beautiful.
[26:36]Yes, like I hand out in,
[26:38]but you know, where the characters like actually
[26:40]people of color, so that would be cool.
[26:42]I miss the theater so much these days.
[26:44]Me too.
[26:45]Oh my gosh, I'm like,
[26:46]I didn't think I would miss it so much.
[26:48]But then when you can't, though,
[26:50]you're like, I want to go so badly.
[26:52]Right.
[26:53]Anyway, wow, that would be really interesting too.
[26:56]Well, so much you could do.
[26:57]Yeah.
[26:57]I feel like I want to pause life right here for a minute
[27:00]fast forward like 20 years and see what you're doing
[27:04]because I feel like you're going to do really amazing things
[27:08]in the world for so many reasons.
[27:10]And I'm just like really excited.
[27:12]Just like watch how you end up using harnessing your intellect
[27:17]and hard work and perspective and empathy.
[27:21]All of it combined to like effect change.
[27:23]That means the world's amazing.
[27:25]I really appreciate that.
[27:26]And hopefully we'll have more conversations whenever, you know,
[27:28]20 years from now, we'll have it in a minute.
[27:30]So when you are, whatever you want to be,
[27:32]whether you're the president or whatever,
[27:35]what do you have like giant aspirations or not really?
[27:39]You know, it's so crazy because in many ways,
[27:40]I'm like living the dream that I've had for so long.
[27:43]I wanted to write books and travel and speak about them.
[27:46]The travel aspect is definitely being hindered by COVID right now.
[27:49]But that's okay.
[27:49]I'm getting to travel from my living room,
[27:52]which is a lot of fun.
[27:53]But I really did just want to produce my writing.
[27:56]I do fiction and non-fiction.
[27:59]So my next one is going to be a novel
[28:01]that I'm finishing up.
[28:02]But hopefully we'll be able to pitch this year.
[28:05]And just talking to people about it
[28:07]and getting everybody excited about things
[28:10]that can be complicated and theory that people feel
[28:13]maybe is overwhelming and that pushes, you know,
[28:15]them out of the conversation.
[28:16]But that actually brings them into a welcoming environment
[28:19]where we can sit and talk about things
[28:21]that are affecting us as a nation.
[28:23]And we'll see maybe that turns into like TV show at some point
[28:27]or I don't know.
[28:29]I'm excited to see, but it's fun.
[28:31]And you know, hopefully maybe having some more kids.
[28:33]I think that's a huge part of my journey as well.
[28:36]And I have not what the future holds,
[28:38]but I'm really enjoying the moment.
[28:40]This is where I've wanted to be for a long time.
[28:43]And I cannot believe the book is now out.
[28:45]So exciting.
[28:46]Well, enjoy it.
[28:47]I didn't mean to not give this moment its due.
[28:50]I was just like sure.
[28:51]No, I appreciate that.
[28:52]Yeah, I'm excited too to see what happens.
[28:54]So yeah, what about you?
[28:56]Where do you want to be?
[28:57]I just want to keep doing more of what I'm doing.
[28:59]Like I want to just expand all the things I'm starting.
[29:01]And I don't know.
[29:02]I'm like, I just want to see where it all goes.
[29:04]It's such a good position to be in
[29:06]where you're like, I love this.
[29:07]And let's just do more of this on bigger levels.
[29:10]Bigger skills.
[29:11]I could just like replicate myself.
[29:13]Yes, that would be good.
[29:14]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[29:19]Wow.
[29:20]Yeah.
[29:20]I mean, I think so for me, I always talk about the fact
[29:23]that it was not an easy journey necessarily.
[29:25]You know, I am young, but I also applied to PhD programs
[29:28]four times.
[29:30]Didn't really find where I wanted to be,
[29:32]didn't get into all the programs I wanted to get into.
[29:34]It was really sad.
[29:35]And like every time I got this introduction letters,
[29:38]I was like, but everyone told me that I had done
[29:40]what I needed to do to like make it to the next step.
[29:42]And I've done all the work.
[29:43]And then it just was perfect where I ended up
[29:46]and being at Cambridge and having the support
[29:49]of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
[29:51]and being able to complete my PhD within three years.
[29:53]And I had become really obsessed with like doing
[29:56]an American PhD program that was gonna take me
[29:58]in like seven years.
[30:00]And when I wasn't getting into those programs felt really
[30:02]dejected and felt like maybe I was not understanding what I was
[30:06]supposed to be doing with my life.
[30:07]And then now fast forward to finally getting into a perfect
[30:11]program and having my book out.
[30:13]So you just have to really push forward past those rejection
[30:17]letters.
[30:17]There's going to be so many of them, you know, even if you want to
[30:20]not necessarily, I mean, self-publishing is a different route.
[30:23]But if you want to work with an agent and you want to, you know,
[30:26]get a book deal, some agents aren't going to work with you.
[30:28]They're not even going to reply to your query letter.
[30:31]But you'll find the ones who believe in you.
[30:33]And then from there, it's just the ball just keeps rolling.
[30:37]So it's probably very cliche.
[30:39]I think everybody says this.
[30:40]And it's so much easier said when you've accomplished the
[30:43]thing than when you're in the middle of the struggle.
[30:46]But definitely from somebody who received a lot of
[30:48]rejection letters and who at times felt like maybe I wasn't
[30:52]doing what I really in my heartfelt.
[30:54]I was supposed to be doing just to keep pushing.
[30:57]But also being understanding with yourself.
[30:59]And then with the novel that I'm hoping to pitch this year,
[31:01]I've been writing it for like four years.
[31:03]So it's a long, long process.
[31:06]And I remember other writers telling me that as a beginning.
[31:09]And I didn't really believe them.
[31:10]I was like, sure, you maybe had just wait that long.
[31:13]I'm going to have this book out so much sooner.
[31:16]And I'm on like my sixth round of edits.
[31:18]And it's getting closer and closer each time.
[31:21]But it is a journey.
[31:23]So just kind of stick with it if you really love it.
[31:26]And it's definitely worth it once you're able to
[31:29]to show the world your work.
[31:30]Perfect.
[31:31]Great.
[31:32]Well, Anna, thank you so much.
[31:33]Thanks for coming on the show.
[31:35]And thanks for having me.
[31:36]Amazing book.
[31:37]And all of what you have to teach in so many different ways.
[31:40]Thank you so much.
[31:41]They'd be, I really appreciate the time.
[31:42]Okay.
[31:43]Take care.
[31:43]Bye.
[31:44]Bye.
[31:46]Today's episode has been sponsored by This Is Everything,
[31:49]the podcast by Ali Levine.
[31:51]And just a reminder, again, please pre-order a copy of my book,
[31:55]Moms Don't Have Time To, A Quarantine Anthology.
[31:58]And go to my website under the anthology tab for the fundraiser.
[32:03]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me for, and I should have
[32:07]mentioned, um, I'll proceed to go to COVID-19 research.
[32:10]So please join me for the fundraiser.
[32:13]Thanks so much.
[32:14]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:17]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[32:22]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[32:25]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[32:29]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[32:33]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and