Caroline Gertler, MANY POINTS OF ME

2021-01-30 · 24:43 · Caroline Gertler · Podcast Audio

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[3:56]Caroline Gertler is the author of the middle grade novel Many Points of Me, a former children's

[4:00]book editor. Caroline has an M.A. in our history and gives tour of old master paintings with a

[4:05]Metropolitan Museum of Art. Caroline grew up in New York City and lives on the Upper West Side with

[4:09]her husband, two daughters, and dog dash, which happens to be one of her favorite forms of punctuation.

[4:14]Welcome, Caroline. Thank you so much for coming on Moms. Don't have time to read books.

[4:18]Thank you for having me, City. I'm really excited to be here today.

[4:21]I feel like it was not that long ago that Sarah might askie introduced us. And we sat next to each

[4:27]other at the library lunch. And you told me about this book you were working on. And now,

[4:32]here we are. And it's coming out many points of me. And it's in my hand that this is so exciting.

[4:38]Yeah, I'm excited. I actually can't believe how fast it's happened. I remember being at one

[4:43]of your events and you announcing to the room that I had just had my book go out on submission.

[4:48]And oh, sorry about that.

[4:50]Oh, really nice. Because it led to a really nice conversation with some writers after.

[4:55]So it was really sweet of you. And you're such an amazing supporter of authors and books. And I just

[5:00]I love watching what you do. So you're really helped get me through some of the pandemic and the

[5:06]foreign teams. Thank you. Oh, I'm so bad. And I really felt like we were all going through

[5:11]that submission process with you. Because you told me like the day you sent it out. And then like

[5:14]every day I was like worrying and wondering and you know, seeing you in the halls at school. And

[5:19]I don't know. It's a nerve-wracking process knowing it's out there. And does the timing of hearing

[5:25]matter and all of that stuff. So yeah, we were like all flies on your shoulder in that event.

[5:29]So sorry for the last in your anxiety out to the crowd.

[5:33]Kind of like I kind of wish I could experience it. It was now that it's come out to

[5:37]you know, publish book. I can say it was it was enjoyable.

[5:41]Oh, well, that's good. So let's go back to the beginning. So when did you start writing at all?

[5:48]And then let's just go from there. I was someone who's wanted to be a writer my entire life.

[5:53]Like since I knew what it meant to be a writer, I would say certainly by the age of I taught

[5:57]myself to read at like three or four, I'd tooled her sister. So I'll all the learned read books were

[6:01]around the house. And I just picked them up and never stopped. And I think my first diary that I

[6:06]ever wrote when I was nine that I kept, I have an entry from when I was six, but I wrote that I

[6:11]wanted to grow up and be a writer and have two girls and a dog. And wow, my husband's like,

[6:16]where was the mention of the husband? And I'm like, well, you know, but the other it's all

[6:21]means to an end. Wow, that's impressive sort of what is it when you like will something into

[6:29]happening? I don't know. Anyway, I'll think of it. Prophecying or something. It's hard work. It

[6:34]was sort of willing it to happen that I had to work and work. It didn't come fast. I mean, I thought,

[6:39]you know, oh, by the time I'm 20 by the time I'm 25. And now here I am in my early 40s. And I just

[6:44]kept working and working and working. And so I think that's what made it happen. It wasn't just

[6:48]a childhood dream. You have to work to make it come true. 100% very true. Yes, this is I was not

[6:55]trying to suggest that like the heavens just threw down the book deal for you or anything.

[6:58]So you knew you wanted to be a writer as a child and then tell me about some of that hard work

[7:03]that led us to this book. Well, I guess just, you know, years of playing as a child and just writing

[7:08]stories and reading. And then I think for a little while I sort of moved away from it thinking,

[7:13]oh, I could never become a writer. And so I looked into journalism and I thought about other things

[7:19]and art history. So I went and I did a degree in art history. And then at a certain point I decided,

[7:24]books are really my thing. I had done an internship in college for a children's book editor.

[7:30]And when I, after I finished my art history master's degree, I actually moved, I was in London.

[7:36]I moved back to New York and I started looking for jobs and publishing. And while I was doing that,

[7:40]I actually got a temporary job working at the bookstore at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

[7:46]They were hiring seasonal temp workers for the holiday season. And so I was there, which was an

[7:52]amazing experience. It was my first exposure to being sort of on the staff side of them at

[7:57]and got some internships and curatorial departments. And I was just applying for publishing jobs.

[8:01]And then I got my first one with Kristia Tabiano. It can rehold who I had interned with when I was in

[8:05]college. And I spent a few years working for her and Wendy Lam at Random House. And I think that

[8:12]was kind of like my MFA, like learning about how to write and being on the other side of publishing

[8:18]was just writing on the side and practicing and working. And how did you choose what audience

[8:23]tried for? Why write for younger readers versus adults? Or was it just for this specific book?

[8:30]I think I was thinking to write for adults when I was younger, like in college, I took

[8:35]writing class with Mary Gordon. And so I was writing short stories, but I always was

[8:40]writing about children and childhood. And my absolute favorite period is a reader. Like that time

[8:46]from like 8 to 12 reading middle grade novels was such a rich experience. And just the way those

[8:53]stories made me feel. And then I think also when I got the internship in publishing in college,

[8:58]I had applied to children's book editor and then also to an adult publishing internship.

[9:04]And I went for both interviews and above and beyond, I just fell in love with the children's

[9:09]book world. And I think that's sort of how it came to be. I think for a while on my 20s,

[9:14]maybe you was still trying to write adult stuff. And then actually when I was like 24,

[9:18]so I think I took my first class in writing for children at NYU with Amy Hest. And I think that's

[9:24]when I sort of focused in on really trying to write for this audience. And let's talk about how

[9:30]your experience at the Met ended up informing this book because there's so much of that in it.

[9:35]And the art world and drawing and the famous artist and all of it. So tell me about deciding to

[9:41]use that those bits and pieces of your professional life for the backstory or not even the

[9:46]backstory, but the whole setting and everything of this book.

[9:49]Well, I think first of all, I've loved from the mixed up files of Mrs. Basley, Frank Biler,

[9:53]as a child and the idea of, you know, having some sort of behind the scenes access to the Met.

[10:00]really spoke to me. And there have been a few other books that have done it nicely,

[10:03]master piece by Elise Broch, which I actually got to help work on when I was at Henry

[10:07]Hole. And then under the egg by Laura Marks Fitzgerald was another really good recent one.

[10:13]And so I wanted to write something that was like an ode to the Met and sort of drew on my art

[10:17]history background, my love for art for the place for New York City. So I think that's really

[10:22]where it came from. And then I was just intrigued by the idea of what would it be like to be a

[10:27]kid whose father was a famous artist and who died and sort of left behind this legacy

[10:32]that is visual that people see and have exposure to, but like doesn't necessarily speak to

[10:37]what it actual personal relationship was. And so that was the other part of it.

[10:43]Yeah, that was so interesting how you went into the whole discussion of how you referred to artists

[10:47]in the present tense. And yet they've passed away. So in a way it's keeping them alive, right? Like

[10:53]he is a, right? Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what the first line of the book, which is a line that

[10:58]sort of stayed through several drafts. And then I had actually taken out that line, I think, and

[11:03]one of the fine towards it final drafts that I was working on with my editor. And then I finally

[11:07]was like, I want to put that line back in and I put it back in the beginning. And I'm glad that

[11:10]I did because I'm glad that that was it. No, because it's kind of makes you think, right, about

[11:17]the whole and what it means when somebody like, if you've lost someone and it's up to you to bring

[11:23]back their memory, right? Like if you think of them or items trigger them or something, that's one

[11:27]thing. But it's another thing to have somebody who you're constantly being sort of resensitized to,

[11:34]if that's even right, you're exposed to it. So your trauma keeps coming back up in your loss,

[11:39]but not even because of you, right? Like my grandmother, I can see her sweater and be sad, but, you know,

[11:45]the famous artist here as the dad, like, you can't get away from that. So yeah, it's a very

[11:50]interesting conundrum, the sort of private and public spheres of loss. Yeah. No, it's, it is interesting

[11:56]and I'm sorry for your grandmother. And I don't know what to mean to bring it in. I mean, most

[12:01]people have lost it. I lost one grandmother, but the one I'm really close to, which I can say is

[12:08]luckily still with us, but my heart goes out too. Thank you. Oh, it was very sad.

[12:13]But so tell me about the writing of this book and knowing your daughters and your life and

[12:20]everything. First and when did you do it? Was it when they were all at school or how did you

[12:26]structure your time? How long did it take to write and all of that? Well, I am the most

[12:30]undisciplined person that exists. And as Sarah, our common friend Sarah, when I was

[12:35]getting to testify, she was so key and helping me to like sort of settle down and like find

[12:41]this a plan. I met her on a plane to Montreal. Like when my older daughter was just starting

[12:46]kindergarten at the same school and her daughter went to. And she would, we actually into the

[12:50]spending 10 hours together in the airport because our flight was canceled. My husband was already

[12:54]up there and she was going up for the holidays and so she kind of, she and her husband took me

[12:58]under their wing. I was with my two girls alone traveling and like helped us all get up to Montreal.

[13:03]But then after that, we started meeting at a coffee shop right after drop off and like she would

[13:09]just make me sit there and a place with no internet and just write. Like she would be like,

[13:13]okay, just sit down and write for an hour. And of course, we had many wonderful conversations too

[13:17]and she'd be like, stop talking now. Right. She really helped me get into this mode of doing that.

[13:23]Then after that period, I started going to the New York Society library on the upper

[13:27]side after dropping my younger daughter at nursery school. And I just, I just made myself do it.

[13:31]I was like, I just have to go and I'm not leaving here. I knew what time I had to go pick up my

[13:35]as I'm not leaving until I get out this number of words and I just kept going. So it was a lot of

[13:41]discipline for someone who's not discipline, which is hard to do. Yeah. I think your story just there

[13:47]negated your claim that you are not discipline. Because you clearly are. But I think having a friend

[13:52]or having accountability of some sort is so key. And I'm jealous of you. I wish Sarah still lived

[13:57]on the east coast. But I'm jealous that she was the one because she's such a champion and cheerleader

[14:01]and to have somebody in your corner who believes in you and wants you to do your work. That's

[14:06]so awesome. I mean, that's really amazing. I was very lucky. And I also had a writer's group that

[14:11]sort of disbanded slightly now. But I would be meeting with them once every other week. And so sort

[14:15]of having that accountability and knowing that I could check in with them was helpful

[14:20]to keep me going. And those times when I just got so down and thinking, this is never going to go

[14:25]anywhere. I'm never going to be able to finish. I don't know what to do. I wish it was just very

[14:29]helpful to have a really emotional support and find those people. Very true. And do you

[14:35]draw? I know there was a lot in here about different types of art forms and all the rest are you

[14:39]an artist at all. I know you know, but maybe a little now. I mean, I love visual arts. I love

[14:46]textiles and fabrics and visual things. But I'm not I cannot draw. And I remember like in college

[14:54]meetings, someone who like, he runs a drawing center or something. And he was like, everybody

[15:00]can learn how to draw. Just close your eyes and like, you know, draw what you see. And of course,

[15:05]I just, I don't know. I'm sure that it's like, never say never anybody can do it. But I'm just

[15:11]not talented that way. And it's like, I think there's a parallel with writing that I think is really

[15:15]interesting. It's just that difference between what you have in your head and then actually putting it

[15:21]onto the page. And so I have no conception of how you'd go about that with a piece of art, like how

[15:27]you would, I mean, capture something figuratively. I guess abstract. I could try to do, but even then,

[15:32]you know, I just don't have it at that vision. But like the with writing, I understand, you know,

[15:36]from the inside out how it works or how it that feels to be able to have this vision in your head and

[15:41]then put it on to paper. And you know, and everyone who writes like knows like what initially

[15:47]comes out is nowhere near close to what you have vision in your head. And even the final product

[15:51]is never really what you had in your head. But you work and work and try to get it there through all

[15:56]the tools that you have as a writer, which you get better at by practicing them. That's true. The

[16:03]artist has all their equipment. They can line up right all the brushes and the colors and everything

[16:09]they need. And then writers, it's all sort of the transition from head to to fingertip in some way.

[16:14]and that's it. You all your thing, all your tools are your hands. I always get so worried, like

[16:19]whenever I slam my finger in the door, I don't know, all these ridiculous things,

[16:22]I'm like, how's it like getting hurt or something's hurting or whatever. And I'm like,

[16:25]what have I kind of used my hands to type? Right? I feel like not only is it like our primary

[16:31]communication method now at least for me, I like rarely pick up the phone, but also just to get

[16:36]my feelings out of my head. And it would be like, so I don't know, it would be like devastating

[16:40]to not be able to know. I'm like jinxing things. Right? I mean, just having I actually, well,

[16:45]two things I have a friend who has arthritis, she got an arthritis at a young age and has that

[16:50]issue. So that she is a hard time taking, but also I just think it's so interesting how we've

[16:55]grown up, like I learned to type in like fifth or sixth grade, like just sort of on the

[16:58]cusp of when computers were becoming common and just how my thinking is so attached to typing on

[17:05]the keyboard and being able to like hit the lead and move and cut and paste. And I don't write well

[17:10]by hand and just how different that is. I would always admire when I hear writers who are still

[17:15]writing their first drafts by longhand. I'm like, I physically like my hands are not strong enough.

[17:20]I don't have a good pencil group. Like it hurts me. So I just I kind of think there must be

[17:26]something very special about writing it out by hand first and then translating that onto the computer

[17:31]when you don't have the time to like fidget with every word. Yeah, I used to write by hand like

[17:36]ages ago, right? Like 10 and under or something, but maybe even a little bit further. But now I

[17:42]just feel like it's so much faster. Like my, I can't write as fast as I'm thinking. So it's just so

[17:47]frustrating to like wait for the pencil to catch up. I don't know. This is so such a silly

[17:53]where some writers who are like like writers that admire that are very beautiful writers,

[17:58]like they do write, they probably are writing more slowly and more deliberately because they're

[18:02]not just, you know, I'm a speed writer. I'll be like, I'm gonna sit down and

[18:05]hunt and chow at three pages and I can do it in 15 minutes, but it's not always as well thought

[18:10]through as it would be if I slow down and took some time with it, maybe. Yes, I'm not good at slowing

[18:16]down pretty much anything, but good point. Well, having been through this whole process and getting

[18:22]it published, having it coming out into the world, which is so exciting, what advice would you have

[18:26]for young writers? You, you know, years ago, starting on this journey. I think that I mean, the big

[18:33]things are just keep reading so that you learn story and internalize a sense of how a story

[18:38]and plot and character work. I think that's something you just learned by reading a lot

[18:43]and writing just practicing, just doing it and having fun exploring different worlds. I don't

[18:49]know how important finishing a project is. I sort of had this conversation with another writer

[18:54]friend who teaches writing to young children. I never was really great at finishing things when I

[19:00]I was a kid and even well into my adulthood, which I think eventually becomes a very important

[19:06]feat. And I remember the first time I finished something. It didn't matter if it was good or bad,

[19:09]but I think when you're young, you know, you're, you have so many ideas and it's okay to just keep

[19:14]exploring them. And actually my daughter, my almost 11 year old daughter writes and it's so fun

[19:19]to like watch how she, I mean, she's like way better than I ever was or ever am or will be

[19:26]at like thinking of like plot and character and motivation, like all these things that I can

[19:31]like consciously think about. She can like talk through it and it's amazing, but she doesn't,

[19:36]you know, she'll write like a hundred pages of something and then move on to something else.

[19:39]And like is it important for her to finish at this age or just, you know, get it down. She was

[19:43]like asking me about like copyright rule. She wants to quote from like, wow, you hear something and

[19:48]people if I want to have them acting to play, can I use the actual lines of dialogue? And

[19:52]I was like, well, don't worry, like unless you're being, I'm just republishing it like,

[19:56]you know, you could just have fun and use it. And if you do get to the point of

[20:00]pushing it, then we'll figure that out.

[20:02]But it's fun to sort of have that in the house,

[20:05]like this kind of person to have these talks about writing with.

[20:08]And that's amazing.

[20:10]Wow.

[20:10]If the kid of mine could finish a page,

[20:12]it would be like a miracle.

[20:14]I shouldn't say that.

[20:15]Some of them like writing more than others.

[20:16]But none of them are writing 100 pages

[20:18]and worrying about copyright.

[20:19]So it's pretty impressive.

[20:22]Did writing about all of this enhance your appreciation of art?

[20:25]Like, do you have a favorite room in the Met

[20:27]that you really love?

[20:27]Like, do you now feel more attached to it?

[20:29]Having sort of just had it in your consciousness

[20:32]for even longer?

[20:32]I think that came from my, I'm a dosing at the Met.

[20:35]I give tours there.

[20:36]So I've, for the past 10 years, done volunteer training,

[20:41]and we used to have volunteer training on Mondays

[20:43]when the Met was closed to the public.

[20:44]So I got to spend a lot of time there when it was closed.

[20:46]And I think that's really where my love for the Met

[20:49]kind of has solidified that it feels like my own backyard.

[20:53]There's so many things I love.

[20:54]I love the period rooms, which I think I mentioned in this book,

[20:57]that you feel like you're walking through

[20:59]like a giant dollhouse.

[21:00]I mean, the American rooms are amazing too.

[21:03]Of course, I love European paintings,

[21:05]which is my field.

[21:06]I'm especially a fan of 17th century Dutch art.

[21:09]And they've had a special exhibition on it

[21:13]for the past couple years as they're renovating

[21:14]the European paintings gallery.

[21:16]So they're all gathered together in one place.

[21:18]And I could just live there.

[21:19]But there's so many wonderful places to explore.

[21:22]It's funny when I go with people to the Met.

[21:24]I'm like racing through, like I know,

[21:25]I could like cover the whole Met in 10 minutes

[21:27]because I used to give a tour of the whole museum.

[21:29]And I forget that not everybody is as comfortable.

[21:33]Like it doesn't have the whole floor plan of the Met

[21:36]like living in their heads.

[21:37]So it's a really special privilege

[21:40]to be able to have that relationship

[21:41]with such an amazing place.

[21:43]I have that with the Museum of Natural History

[21:46]because all four of my kids took class there

[21:48]like for several years each child.

[21:51]And we had to trump through every single thing.

[21:53]And I think that's also the Elizabeth, actually.

[21:56]And yeah, so there you go.

[21:58]I have for years, like I actually, the asterisms

[22:03]in the book, like the stuff about the dad painting stars

[22:06]and he painted the series of asterisms.

[22:07]I learned about asterisms from the Natural History

[22:10]class that we did last year.

[22:12]And this year we were doing even more like astrophysics

[22:15]and learning even more about stars.

[22:16]And I was like, oh, I wish I had had all this information

[22:19]last few years ago because we're going a little deeper now.

[22:25]You know, I'm like, as I go from child to child,

[22:27]I'm like, can I remember the answer to these questions?

[22:30]Sort of like, you know, one time I was a six year jump.

[22:33]So I was like, okay, all four of them were.

[22:35]Yeah, I did it with all four of them.

[22:36]I'm always amazed with those parents

[22:38]who are there with like four times a week

[22:40]with each one of their kids.

[22:42]No, I never did more than two times a week.

[22:44]But yeah, and Dutch art.

[22:45]I love, I took a class in college.

[22:47]I took art history every semester,

[22:49]but I didn't major in it

[22:50]because I only wanted to take the ones I wanted to take.

[22:53]And there was some amazing class by Christopher

[22:55]Wood.

[22:56]It's just like preeminent scholar and Dutch art.

[22:58]I'm sure anyway, he was amazing.

[23:00]And so I hear his voice every time

[23:01]I'm trumping through exhibits and it's like that.

[23:05]Anyway, well, Caroline, thank you so much.

[23:07]It's so exciting that your book is coming out.

[23:09]I'm excited to do the event together at Shakespeare.

[23:12]And to have this book, I started reading it out loud

[23:14]to the kids, but then I couldn't read it fast enough to them

[23:16]for the place that I wanted to read it.

[23:18]So at least they got a few pages,

[23:20]but it's really awesome.

[23:21]And I'm so excited for you.

[23:22]It's really fantastic.

[23:23]Well, thank you so much, that this is fun.

[23:25]And I'm looking forward to our event.

[23:26]And I'm also looking forward to your books coming out

[23:29]next year here in biology and picture book.

[23:32]Thank you.

[23:33]Yes, that'll be fun.

[23:35]All right, awesome.

[23:36]Okay. Thank you.

[23:37]Well, thanks for having me.

[23:40]Thanks to page and pairing.com for sponsoring today's episode.

[23:44]Go check them out, page and pairing.com,

[23:47]the weekly email that brings you book, wine,

[23:49]and recipe recommendations.

[23:51]And just a reminder, again,

[23:52]please pre-order a copy of my book,

[23:54]Moms Don't Have Time To, a quarantine anthology,

[23:57]and go to my website under the anthology tab

[24:01]for the fundraiser.

[24:02]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me

[24:05]for, and I should have mentioned,

[24:07]I'll proceed to COVID-19 research.

[24:09]So please join me for the fundraiser.

[24:12]Thanks so much.

[24:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time

[24:15]to Read Books.

[24:16]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,

[24:19]at ZB Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[24:22]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com

[24:24]and sign up for my virtual book club

[24:26]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[24:28]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at the Textures Sound

[24:31]for the Sound Editing.

[24:32]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[24:34]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.