Sara Faith Alterman, LET'S NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS AGAIN
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[3:56]Sarah Faith Alterman is a Bostonian at heart and a San Francisco at present.
[4:01]She's written for the New York Times, mixed weenies and the Boston Globe,
[4:04]as well as the anthology's modern loss candid conversations about grief and not quite what I was planning.
[4:10]Six word memoirs by writers, famous and obscure.
[4:13]Sarah also produces mortified, the acclaimed stage show podcast and Netflix series that features adults reading from their cringe or the teenage diaries.
[4:21]Let's never talk about this again is her third book.
[4:25]Welcome Sarah. Thanks so much for coming on mom.
[4:28]Thanks for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[4:31]Sure, thanks for having me.
[4:32]I do know the name of my podcast. I think I think I just, you know, you're all scrambling day to day to just turn on.
[4:41]I wouldn't worry to say some crazy stuff. It's fine.
[4:44]Awesome. So can you please tell listeners what your book is about and what inspired you to write it?
[4:51]Yes, my book is called Let's Never Talk About This Again and it is about my relationship with my father who was a very strict sort of vanilla person who did not want us to see anything that was beyond sort of g rated.
[5:07]And then as it turns out had a secret career writing sex books and not like clinical textbooks, but very body 1970s like borderline porno books.
[5:18]So it's about my and I found this books when I was a little girl and they taught me about sex and all kinds of other stuff.
[5:24]So it is about my relationship with my dad and trying to sort of reconcile these two dads that I knew about from a young age.
[5:30]And then when he was in his mid 60s, he developed Alzheimer's disease and suddenly we had never acknowledged these books at all and suddenly we were talking about them all the time. So it is about that journey.
[5:44]You just such a good job by the way of like taking us with you. Well, first you like introduced us to your family is so well that I feel like I totally get your dad and you and the whole relationship with the puns and all the rest.
[5:57]And then you see you like going in and getting your sesame street cookbook, which by the way, I would really like to see what a snuffle up against meatball is or whatever it was that you were making.
[6:07]But I'll just leave that alone and you're like finally tell it up to reach the secret stash of books and then you talk about it in the book and then at the end of the chapter you're like, and then I never talked about it for 25 years.
[6:18]Like what?
[6:19]That was impossible. Tell me about that.
[6:22]So my parents had what we called the duck room because my mother had tricked it out with all kinds of duck paraphernalia for no reason and it wasn't cartoonish it was like tasteful ducks.
[6:34]So we had while people that had sort of a mallard pattern on it and we had, you know, chairs that were upholstered in very New Englandy sort of dainty duck patterns and then we had a little phone shaped like a duck.
[6:46]So we called it the duck room and we had these built in bookshelves at the back of the room and so they had sort of like waist high for an adult anyway cabinets for the counter and then you could climb up on top of them and look through the books and my brother and I would do that all the time because we kept some of our books there like my sesame street cookbook as you mentioned and some of my parents stuff like their
[7:06]books from high school and my mom's novels and my dad's cramp just all sort of friendly stuff and I couldn't reach the top shelf till I was like probably nine eight or nine and one day I when I realized I could reach the top shelf I just was like well everything else is for me.
[7:23]Let's see what's up here for me and I found like crammed into the corner this stack of sort of large format paperbacks and I pulled them out thinking okay clearly this is fine.
[7:33]And the first one had a cartoon cat on it that looked a lot like our field and so I thought oh this is like comic strips and I opened it up it was called games you can play with your pussy and being a little girl.
[7:43]I was like yeah, cat book obviously so I don't find enough and it was very clear very quickly that it wasn't really about cats that I couldn't understand what I was missing.
[7:53]And then I kept looking through the stack and I found all these different sex manuals that were again not clinical they were sort of jokey and they had cartoons so like these big.
[8:04]Brested women sitting on men's laps and all kinds of sort of like panting sweating people mashed up together and I did not understand what was going on.
[8:13]And then I found some that were kind of more and more risque and so like once I started to see naked real people I thought okay this is like something I'm not supposed to be looking at definitely.
[8:23]And they made me uncomfortable but also a little turned on which is weird and then I saw my dad's name as the author on these books and it was just like this.
[8:34]And then I just was so uncomfortable to meet up to my father that I never brought it up ever until you know he was in the 60s and you know that was partly because actually it was entirely because my dad was so g rated and we were not allowed to even watch kissing scenes on TV and you know if he saw people kissing like out in public he wouldn't make a huge scene to just like push us out of the way.
[9:01]like create some sort of distraction by dropping something was very cartoonish and so I knew oh my god if I tell my dad one that I was looking around and stuff that I wasn't supposed to look at and to.
[9:12]That had to do with sex or even kissing in any way I was going to get either in trouble or he was just going to freak out and so I just like put it aside and never mentioned it.
[9:22]And I had to be on that kind of relationship throughout my whole life, I mean when I told my parents that I was pregnant with my son.
[9:31]I was very uncomfortable telling them because it was like acknowledging that I was having sex, even though I was like 34 and Mary nice dogs like oh god, I have to acknowledge that my husband and I've been like putting our parts together in a way that made a baby so it was sort of defines our relationship I think I can talk about this forever.
[9:50]Ironically I can talk about this forever, it's my never role here very easy I just need to hang out and watch.
[10:00]Yeah, I have a coffee right here.
[10:02]Thank you.
[10:02]I'm just going to settle in.
[10:05]I was surprised at the time that you didn't tell your brother,
[10:08]because it seemed like you guys are pretty close.
[10:11]But you kept that aside.
[10:12]Did you debate telling him?
[10:14]He was a couple years younger.
[10:15]He is a couple years younger than I am.
[10:17]And so when I found the books, I was very young.
[10:19]And I just didn't think it was something
[10:23]that he could wrap his head around either.
[10:25]But it wasn't just that I was uncomfortable talking about sex
[10:28]with my parents or kissing with my parents.
[10:29]It was just kind of talking about it in general.
[10:31]And so even when I was a teenager and got involved
[10:35]with the guy that I ultimately lost my virginity to
[10:38]and sort of did all the first with,
[10:40]we never, I couldn't articulate to him
[10:43]like anything at all besides, and this is weird.
[10:45]But I learned a lot of my sexy talk from my dad's book.
[10:49]So not only because that's gross and terrible,
[10:53]but also these books were written largely in the 70s.
[10:56]And so I was a teenager in the 90s
[10:59]and 16-year-old girl talking like a pornie woman
[11:03]in the 70s, it's like a very bizarre,
[11:06]like wrong way to talk in general.
[11:08]And so I just couldn't talk about sex
[11:12]without feeling uncomfortable in any way.
[11:14]And I think in part because I conflated it
[11:15]with my dad and with his books.
[11:17]And so I didn't bring it up to my brother
[11:20]probably for the same reasons I didn't bring it up
[11:22]to anyone because I just couldn't say sexy or sexual words
[11:28]without getting super uncomfortable.
[11:30]It's been, I still feel that way a little bit,
[11:32]which is funny because I'm in my 40s.
[11:33]And I'm talking about a book that has this like,
[11:36]all over the place.
[11:37]You're like, where'd a whole book about it?
[11:38]It's like, it's coming out now.
[11:40]You're a kid, words and all,
[11:43]or words like to say, where you're talking about sex,
[11:45]not words, all the things.
[11:46]But I really struggled and still sort of struggle
[11:50]with talking about sex in a matter of fact way.
[11:52]I think that I always kind of joked about it
[11:55]because I was uncomfortable.
[11:57]And actually that's a note I got again and again
[11:59]for my editor on this book.
[12:01]She'd be like, there's too many puns.
[12:03]I can tell you're uncomfortable.
[12:05]You're writing like a 50 year old Jewish man.
[12:08]Like you got to pull back on the Borsch Beltie stuff
[12:11]about sex a little bit.
[12:12]Because I again would sort of make a new window
[12:15]or kind of like jokey jokes about penises
[12:17]or whatever.
[12:18]And she was like, we're all adults, you got to move faster.
[12:22]So, you know, editor as therapist, if you will.
[12:26]I feel like they all, they always.
[12:29]Because you have to really, especially when you're
[12:31]writing memoir, you have to allow yourself
[12:33]to be vulnerable, even when it's really uncomfortable.
[12:35]And I would get on the phone with her.
[12:38]And of course, this is about the illness
[12:39]and death of my father.
[12:40]And so it was a really, you know, obviously,
[12:43]for most people it is a really difficult topic.
[12:46]And so I would get in a zone where I would be writing
[12:50]about some of the harder scenes, like when he was ill
[12:52]or when he was dying, which is not a spoiler.
[12:54]Because I think the second sentence of the whole book
[12:57]says that my father died.
[12:58]So hopefully no one feels spoiled.
[13:00]But I would call her and we'd have to talk through these scenes.
[13:02]And I would have to really be honest with her.
[13:05]And, you know, again, vulnerable in a way
[13:08]that I hadn't really been with anyone else, even my husband.
[13:11]And so she would listen and she would, to her credit,
[13:14]be very sympathetic, but also give me wonderful advice
[13:17]on how to write about something painful,
[13:20]which I imagine is a really hard position
[13:22]to be in because you're trying to comfort someone,
[13:23]but also critique them and kind of like emotionally
[13:27]cradle them through a difficult time,
[13:29]but still focus them in a productive direction.
[13:32]So I give her a ton of credit.
[13:33]This would have been a totally different book without her.
[13:35]And what made you start writing memoir and personal essay,
[13:40]like all that, when did you start doing all of that?
[13:42]So I have a background in sketch comedy
[13:46]and also in producing and storytelling shows.
[13:49]So one of my jobs is I produce,
[13:52]or one of the producers on a show called mortified.
[13:55]It is a live stage show where adults read
[13:57]from their teenage journals, like to the great embarrassment
[14:01]of themselves and like the delight of an audience.
[14:03]So I've spent many years performing myself in the show,
[14:07]but also working with people to go through their diaries,
[14:12]to pull out the funniest and yet also most vulnerable parts
[14:16]to make a story.
[14:17]So a lot of people think that mortified,
[14:19]who've heard of mortified,
[14:20]think that it's like an open mic,
[14:22]you just kind of show up and read your diary,
[14:24]but it's actually really curated.
[14:27]We don't make anything up, but we want to make sure
[14:29]that what's coming out of the mouth of a performer
[14:32]is relatable to and funny for an audience.
[14:35]So I've been, let's see, doing that show for about 12 years,
[14:40]I think is a producer.
[14:41]And so I've spent over a decade working with people
[14:43]to tell their own stories and like I said,
[14:45]you've read how many have read all those people's diaries,
[14:48]essentially.
[14:49]Yeah, like hundreds of times.
[14:51]And it's amazing that people turn their diaries over to me.
[14:55]Again, and that sort of same relationship
[14:57]that I have with my editor, Suzanne,
[14:58]it's a real relationship built on trust and compassion
[15:03]and belief that I'm not going to exploit them in some way.
[15:06]And so being on the editorial side of that,
[15:09]but also the performer side of that,
[15:11]it just felt natural to start telling my own story
[15:15]because I help other people tell their own stories.
[15:18]And actually this book came from,
[15:20]well, obviously it came from my life,
[15:22]but the idea for the book originally was from my performing
[15:26]at a storytelling show in San Francisco
[15:28]that's called Body Storytelling, B-A-W-D-Y.
[15:31]That is a sex storytelling show.
[15:33]And I am being really uncomfortable talking about sex,
[15:37]especially in public, did not want to do this show,
[15:40]but I know the creator who's an amazing woman
[15:42]or named Dixie Dayla tour,
[15:44]and she was trying to get me on the show for years.
[15:47]And so after my dad died,
[15:49]I just felt compelled to talk about him
[15:52]and talk about his books to try and keep him alive a little bit.
[15:54]And so I did a show where I've told
[15:58]an abridged version of this story.
[16:01]And the audience really liked it,
[16:03]and I'm not too late, but really liked it.
[16:06]And I ended up from there crafting a book proposal
[16:11]because I've written two other books in my early 20s
[16:14]and I have the same literary agent as I had,
[16:17]I mean, she's been my agent for almost 20 years at this point.
[16:19]So I had talked to her about,
[16:22]hey, I'm thinking about, I don't know,
[16:25]like this germ of a book idea.
[16:26]Here's the audio of a storytelling show
[16:28]that I did, what do you think?
[16:29]And she was like, this is the one.
[16:31]So it sort of began as me trying to vomit out
[16:36]my feelings on stage.
[16:37]And then from there over the course of a couple years,
[16:41]I ended up shaping into a book.
[16:43]And I feel like I am a talker when it comes to writing.
[16:47]I get asked about my writing process a lot.
[16:49]I don't know why I'm doing quotes.
[16:50]I get asked about my writing process a lot.
[16:53]And for me, it's really talking out loud.
[16:57]Like I will run a log alone in a room
[17:02]to kind of get out what is in my head.
[17:05]And they work a story out out loud.
[17:08]And then sometimes I'll record it, but sometimes not.
[17:11]And only when it feels good coming out of my mouth,
[17:13]that's when I sit down and actually write it.
[17:14]And so, you know, taking the story from the stage
[17:19]to the page kind of made a lot of sense to me.
[17:22]I feel like I'm the exact opposite of you.
[17:24]Like I can't even get a coherence sentence out
[17:27]until I write it down first.
[17:29]The idea of like, I'm just gonna try to randomly talk
[17:32]and maybe that will lead to something I write
[17:35]is like, I have so much respect
[17:37]for you for being able to do it that way.
[17:39]Thank you.
[17:40]I mean, as you can probably tell, I am a talker.
[17:42]I can just go and go and go.
[17:44]And I don't know.
[17:45]There's something about talking out loud
[17:46]that for me helps me find the cadence of a sentence.
[17:49]And so that's just kind of how it, how it worked out.
[17:52]I don't know.
[17:53]I think any time I've tried to really sit down
[17:55]and focus and write by sitting at the computer,
[17:58]it's just not successful for me.
[18:00]So I have to either talk out loud or handwrite.
[18:02]I would go when I was writing this book,
[18:04]I would take a notebook and go to a coffee shop.
[18:06]And I live in the San Francisco Bay area,
[18:08]which is like tech central.
[18:10]And so I'd go to a coffee shop
[18:11]and there would be everyone on their computers.
[18:15]Some tables would be dudes, it's always dudes,
[18:19]talking about their startup
[18:20]and how they're gonna get funding.
[18:21]I was just surrounded by technology.
[18:23]And I would be writing on my notebook.
[18:26]And I got a lot of strange looks because I was just like,
[18:31]probably looked like I was writing in a diary
[18:32]or something, but that's how I have to do it.
[18:34]I don't know.
[18:35]It's just, it's how it's what happened.
[18:38]I'm not sure why.
[18:38]That's great.
[18:39]I mean, whatever it works.
[18:40]It's art, this is like an art form.
[18:43]So you do it however you do it.
[18:44]There's no right way around me.
[18:46]Tell me a little, I read your New York Times article
[18:48]about how when you were pregnant with the ice cream
[18:51]and the Mr. Misty or whatever it was.
[18:53]And then you were pregnant as your father
[18:55]was sort of descending rapidly into Alzheimer's
[18:58]and your belly was expanding out.
[19:00]It was such a powerful sort of visualist.
[19:02]Both of you sort of expand and contract at the same time.
[19:05]Tell me about that experience
[19:07]and what it was like having to cope
[19:09]with something so traumatic while going through something
[19:13]physically very traumatic in a way too.
[19:16]So it was traumatic, both things.
[19:18]I mean, I talk about this pretty candidly in the book
[19:20]but I did not want to have children.
[19:22]And it's not as though I had my son against my will.
[19:26]It was just more, it took a lot of convincing.
[19:28]And I had my reasons for not wanting kids
[19:30]and my husband had his reasons for wanting kids.
[19:33]And so it was like a big decision that we made
[19:35]and it happened really quickly.
[19:37]I'd gone to my OB, I think I was 34.
[19:41]And she had said, it's gonna take a while,
[19:44]usually women in their mid to late 30s.
[19:47]It's a process so in a year or two
[19:48]when you're not pregnant, come back to me.
[19:49]And I was like, yeah, I have a year or two, it was great.
[19:52]And then I got pregnant very quickly.
[19:53]And it was upsetting, which is, I think some people
[19:58]probably think that's a horrible thing to say.
[20:00]was upsetting. It's not what I wasn't ready. And so I was already coping with the emotional
[20:05]trauma of coming to terms with the fact that I was going to be a mom before I was ready.
[20:08]And the physical trauma you have foretold on, you understand of your body just taking over and
[20:13]there's nothing that you can do. And this little like creature inside of you, this little vampire
[20:19]creature just kind of sucking everything out of you. So that was hard. And my father was diagnosed
[20:23]right around the time that I found out that I was pregnant. And so I was dealing with the trauma
[20:29]of accepting that I was going to be a mom. You know, the trauma of accepting that my father was
[20:33]dying. It was a lot. And I was sort of growing this baby as my father was becoming more of a baby,
[20:39]which was profound in a way that I have a hard time articulating. And so that process was just
[20:46]trying to focus on the good and the beauty of both experiences. You know, I tried really hard to focus
[20:53]on the beauty of growing a child and the beauty of having an expiration date on my relationship
[20:59]with my father and saying all the things that we never said and really kind of treasuring our
[21:05]time together in a way that I don't think I would have. I mean, I always treasure my time with my
[21:09]parents, but it just felt like, okay, every moment, every conversation, I really need to be the
[21:14]best that I can because, you know, I'm not, I don't know how much longer I'm going to have
[21:18]these conversations with my dad. And how did your mom and your brother, like, how did other people
[21:24]in your life respond to this book? And even just this piece of your dad coming out, my whole family
[21:30]has been on board since the beginning. So I know a lot of memoirs or there are memoirs in the world
[21:37]that are salacious and kind of tell all. And I didn't want to write a salacious book. And I also
[21:43]am really uncomfortable writing about someone without having their permission, especially my mom
[21:47]and my brother and my husband. And so they all gave me their permission ahead of time to even
[21:52]write the book. And then they were really instrumental in helping me recreate, not recreate,
[21:57]but help me remember things that had happened. And they all kind of signed off on the book before I
[22:03]submitted it. And so, you know, I want especially my husband because so much of the book is about
[22:07]our developing relationship. And so we spent a lot of time talking about, oh, remember when we
[22:13]went on this camping trip together, remember the lead up to our wedding. And we would sort of
[22:17]work together to make sure that I was remembering things correctly and also representing him in a way
[22:21]that he felt was accurate. So I did that with my mom and brother as well. And there were a couple
[22:27]things that people weren't comfortable with. And so I just took them out or I changed the way
[22:31]that I talked about them because I wanted everyone to be on board with this book. I don't think that
[22:37]I could be comfortable with myself. If I had written something kind of despite other people's
[22:43]opinions, I mean, not just by my family's opinions. So they were happy. My brother is a very
[22:52]that's the word I want to find. He is someone who's very stoic and does not really talk about
[22:57]feelings. He was in the military. So I'm sure that's part of it. And so I sent him the book and he
[23:01]texted me a thumbs up emoji and that was it. So I mean, I guess I have his sign off. And my husband
[23:09]really loved it. And my mom was really proud and she feels like it is an homage to my dad. And
[23:14]that's it. I mean, what I wanted. And it was one of the time books of the year. That was awesome.
[23:20]Thank you. Yeah. I was totally floored and grateful, especially because this year so many incredible
[23:25]books came out. I mean, you've interviewed so many of the authors of the incredible books that
[23:30]came out this year and plus what a year, right? And so I went to garbage here for so many reasons.
[23:37]And so it just, I felt really grateful for having that, you know, having that exposure or having
[23:42]validation from a publication that I really respect. I wonder sometimes, I mean, we spend,
[23:47]we all collectively spend so much time bashing 2020, you know, myself included, can't wait for 2021
[23:53]but what if, like, I mean, we'll all remember it. Like, I just wonder in a decade, I mean,
[24:00]obviously, you know, you take some parts of memory with you and others you forget, you know,
[24:06]like, having a kid, like, a little thing, but I don't know. I mean, of course, there's like,
[24:11]on a national scale, it's been horrific and there've been, like, horrific personal things. But
[24:16]I don't know. I just wonder, looking back, was it the year that you end up, well, people say,
[24:21]like, wow, that's actually the year I ended up like repairing these relationships with these people
[24:25]and re-prioritizing my life. And I don't know. I just wonder, but food for thought.
[24:31]I completely agree with you. And I sometimes feel a little guilty talking about silver linings
[24:37]that I have found because the year has been so difficult and painful for everybody, but to some
[24:42]people, especially in a horrifying degree to a horrifying degree. And I feel so bad for my older son
[24:46]because I'm, like, constantly trying to find silver linings amid his existence, as I mentioned
[24:53]before. But, you know, he's, I've had so much time with him this year that I would not have had.
[24:58]And I mean, sometimes it's awful and stressful and difficult, but sometimes when I'm really
[25:04]getting down about this year, my husband will say, listen, Colin, my oldest, is going to look
[25:09]back on this and remember he just gets to be with mom and dad all the time. And he's going to be
[25:13]happy. And so I've really hung on to that and hung on to getting to know him and my youngest,
[25:19]who's almost too, being around for him in a way that I was not around for my older one when he
[25:25]he was the same age. So I've been trying to hold down to that. Colin, my oldest is also really
[25:30]as manic. And so whenever he gets what would to other kids be a little cold, it's always emergency
[25:37]level. He's never had a little cold. It's always a horrible respiratory infection that lands
[25:42]us in the hospital. And he has not been six since February, which is literally the entire,
[25:47]it's the longest he has not been sick in his entire life. And so for me, COVID is extra scary because
[25:53]I have a little kid that is high risk. And he has not even had a little, he hasn't had anything,
[25:58]and it's been incredible. So for me, those are the silver linings that I try to really hang on to
[26:03]because being a mom, even though I was so reluctant to become one has become a huge part of my
[26:11]identity. And the thing that I am the proudest of is my relationship with my kids and that they
[26:17]seem to be turning out to not be sociopaths. Those are the things that, yeah, I hope to look back on
[26:24]2020 and remember the good that came out of it for my family might as well. I don't know.
[26:33]You referenced earlier when we were chatting that you have one writing project that you're working on,
[26:37]but otherwise your stuff is sort of on hold. Can you talk at all about that writing project or
[26:41]not really? A little bit. So I've been working on adapting my book for television for a couple
[26:46]years. I sold the auction for the book at the same time as selling the book itself. So I actually
[26:51]wrote a TV pilot and a book at the same time and was also pregnant with my own website. So it was
[26:57]a very intense time. So I can't talk too much about it, but the book has been is in development
[27:03]for television. And that's been a ride. It's been wild. So I've been sort of focusing all of my
[27:09]energy lately on to exciting. That's great. Thank you. I'm excited. I also have started very
[27:16]tentatively to put together an outline for another book, which I think is also going to be
[27:22]memoir about a time in my life that was bonkers, which was right after undergrad, I moved to Myrtle
[27:28]Beach South Carolina, which is like, I was there for my graduation retreat with my own college class.
[27:35]Anyway, good. So you'll understand why to me it's funny anyway, that I moved to Myrtle Beach
[27:41]in an effort to like really find myself and figure out what I wanted to do with my life.
[27:46]And other people were going there to just like get wasted and party. And so the book right now,
[27:51]like the germ of an idea is a memoir about, yeah, the search for finding yourself or like the
[27:57]effort to find yourself in a place where people go to lose themselves. I have like wild stories.
[28:03]And it'll be personal and vulnerable, maybe not to the same degree that this book is, but it
[28:09]wasn't just wild time in my life. But a wild time in a way that Myrtle Beach is like a different
[28:16]different wildness than Myrtle Beach is for other people. So it's like, it's like going on a
[28:22]yoga retreat to Daytona Beach or something, right? It's like something that's like so not
[28:27]what you imagine when you think of a place. It's great. I love it. That's awesome.
[28:33]Great seeing you. Yeah. So that's what I'm doing and just mommy.
[28:39]As you know, well, I really love the way you write. And obviously I can tell now you write
[28:44]the way you speak, which is even better, which I guess means I'd like the way you think in general,
[28:49]which sounds weird to say to somebody else, but I feel like you could write a book about anything.
[28:53]Jeremy, like you're just describing your point of view of experiences. I'm sure you'll have lots
[28:58]more books coming out of you over the years. But do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[29:03]Yes. Two pieces of advice. The first piece is don't be afraid to be vulnerable, which I know
[29:10]I've talked about a lot already in this conversation. But for me, it was a huge revelation to
[29:15]just lean into pieces of my life or pieces of my story that I didn't want to write about.
[29:20]I ultimately realized, okay, those are the pieces that are the most interesting or at least
[29:25]the most compelling, you know, don't back off of an idea or of a sentence or a story just
[29:31]because it makes you feel uncomfortable because often I think that's where the best stuff comes from.
[29:35]And also don't be afraid to suck. I mean, I have gotten in my own way so many times just
[29:43]ripping a page out or deleting a bunch of stuff because I thought, oh, this is garbage. And then
[29:47]you just get up and walk away, right? And I think because I would reread something that I wrote
[29:53]first draft and think, this is a piece of, I'm not going to swear, but this is a garbage sentence.
[29:59]I'm done.
[30:00]And if I had just continued to erase things rather than put them out in the world, I don't think the book would be where it is.
[30:09]One of my saying don't be afraid to suck because your first draft two drafts five drafts are going to suck, but they are part of the process of getting to the draft that is good.
[30:18]I mean, I wrote this book. I probably wrote three full drafts of this book.
[30:22]The first draft was a totally different book. It felt different. There were different stories, the same characters, but a few extras.
[30:29]It was very dark and morose in a way that didn't feel good, but just felt like this is what's coming out right now.
[30:38]It was awful and my editor was incredible at being shiny about her critique that it was terrible.
[30:45]I put this in the acknowledgements, but I made a lot of jokes about like murder and death and like trying to be funny ha-ha. She was like, this is not good.
[30:52]So then the next draft wasn't great either, but, you know, they were like stepping stones to getting to what the book is now.
[30:59]And if I hadn't accepted my suckiness, I don't think that I would have been able to polish stuff into the final version.
[31:07]So don't be afraid to be vulnerable and don't be afraid to suck because both of those things will lead to greatness.
[31:14]Love it. Thank you. Thanks Sarah. This was such a fun conversation.
[31:17]And now I have to go back and like watch your show and stockpile from all your productions and everything, but anyway, I'm really glad we connected.
[31:26]Thanks so much for having my pleasure. Good luck with everything.
[31:31]Bye.
[31:33]Thanks to page and pairing.com for sponsoring today's episode.
[31:37]Go check them out, page and pairing.com, the weekly email that brings you book, wine and recipe recommendations.
[31:43]And just a reminder, again, please pre-order a copy of my book.
[31:47]Moms don't have time to a quarantine anthology and go to my website under the anthology tab for the fundraiser.
[31:55]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me for, and I should have mentioned, I'll proceed to go to COVID-19 research.
[32:02]So please join me for the fundraiser. Thanks so much.
[32:06]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:09]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:14]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[32:21]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at the Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[32:25]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.