Gabrielle Korn, EVERYBODY (ELSE) IS PERFECT
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[3:55]Gabriel Corn is a journalist, digital media expert, and the former editor-in-chief of nylon media, an international lifestyle publication focused on emerging culture.
[4:04]She was the youngest woman and first lesbian to hold the position.
[4:07]Prior to that, she was an editor at Refinery29, overseeing beauty content and expanding the brand's concept of what beauty means to the millennial reader.
[4:15]Gabriel graduated from NYU's Gallatin School of Individualized Study with a concentration in feminist slash queer theory and writing.
[4:22]Her debut book, Everybody Else is Perfect, How I Survived, Hypocrisy, Beauty, Clicks, and Likes, is a provocative and intimate collection of personal essays, featuring eye-opening explorations of hot-button topics for modern women, including internet feminism,
[4:36]and possible beauty standards in social media, shifting ideals about sexuality, and much more.
[4:41]I hope you enjoy our episode.
[4:42]Welcome, Gabriel.
[4:43]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.
[4:46]Thank you.
[4:47]Thank you so much for having me.
[4:49]Yeah, it's my pleasure.
[4:50]I'm so excited to talk about everybody else is perfect, How I Survived, Hypocrisy, Beauty, Clicks, and Likes.
[4:58]Amazing cover.
[4:59]Love all these cross ads instead of I am perfect.
[5:02]Everybody else is perfect.
[5:04]Fantastic.
[5:05]Congratulations on your book.
[5:07]Thank you.
[5:08]Can you tell listeners what inspired you to write this memoir?
[5:12]Yeah, so I was the editor in chief of nylon media, a job that I got when I was 28.
[5:18]And I was thrown into this world of having a high profile position in a really visible industry.
[5:26]And on the outside, my life looked really shiny and glamorous.
[5:30]And the truth was that in order to reach that level of success.
[5:33]So young, I totally sacrificed my personal life.
[5:37]So I started feeling like I was surrounded by dualities.
[5:41]There was like what my life looked like during the day.
[5:44]And then there was what happened when I went home, which was I was a total mess.
[5:48]And I was struggling with an eating disorder. I was stating people who didn't treat me well.
[5:53]I was just like throwing my whole self into work and doing things like fighting for representation and body positivity.
[6:03]And wasn't really listening to any of those messages myself.
[6:07]And I realized that that was true for a lot of the women that I was working with.
[6:12]And I was writing about this disconnect and the trap that women's media creates and how we had all become part of the machine.
[6:21]Even while we thought we were fighting against it.
[6:25]Wow, that was a great description.
[6:29]Love that.
[6:30]You know, one of the pieces of the book that I found super interesting is you wrote a lot about being a lesbian in this industry.
[6:37]And how at times near life. And I kind of wish you had put like, and maybe in the final, I'm sure you didn't.
[6:43]But I kind of wanted like a slideshow of all your different looks because you can you constantly not constantly you often described how at this point your hair look this way and at this stage you look like this and how now that you sort of can pass.
[6:57]That's this is you I'm not like saying this as somebody who is straight. And so you wonder with some frequency when to bring it up and is it weird to bring up in a work context.
[7:09]And how do you handle that. And so you had this whole passage where you were so ruminating on that, which I found super interesting. So I was hoping you could talk a little about that not to lead off with like our first question.
[7:22]You know, let me just, you know, get right to adhere with you, Gabriel. Sorry.
[7:27]It's important. I mean, I, especially when I was first starting out in media was more often than not the only lesbian in the room.
[7:36]And when I first came out, the first thing I did was cut off all my hair and like within six months had just shaven my head entirely and it was really important to me at that point when I was 19 to be visibly queer.
[7:52]Because it was such an important discovery and I didn't want to have to explain myself. But within a few years it started to feel like a performance and it didn't feel natural and I had always been super feminine at least aesthetically.
[8:08]And I just, I missed it. And so when I became a beauty editor gradually I slowly became more and more femme. And what I, what I lost was being read as queer and what I gained was being comfortable in my own skin.
[8:23]It eventually got to a point where like I don't really care if people read me as gay or not like I know it'll come up. It's fine. But it used to make me feel really uncomfortable, especially in women's media, which is for a lot of a better way to describe it like straight lady land.
[8:40]And there I was like just feeling like I had a secret if I didn't help people or just feeling like an outsider even though I was an insider.
[8:50]And I just kept trying to change my exterior to make it feel more comfortable, but it was more of an internal struggle.
[8:57]And so ironic that like you are writing about beauty and all of your, a lot of your issues were about how you should get your inside out right.
[9:07]And I think this is something not just with sexuality, but so much stuff that so many people deal with every day, like whether it's some personality element or some part of your racial identity or your any kind of thing that's inside because we all hold so much.
[9:23]on our interior lives. How much do you want to broadcast that to the world and in what way are you supposed to do it. I don't know it's such an I find it's such an interesting question.
[9:31]And I think with any identity that isn't like red is neutral, which I think is like white heterosexuality is red is neutral if you are anything but that the choices that you make in how you appear to the world speaks volumes to what you think about yourself and what you think about your worth.
[9:53]And it's kind of a constant conversation for everybody to figure out like how vulnerable do I want to be like.
[10:00]Like, do I want my body hair showing
[10:02]because I love having body hair
[10:04]or do I not want it showing
[10:05]because I don't wanna deal with people staring at me.
[10:08]And in which people to sort of let in to that.
[10:11]Yeah, exactly.
[10:12]There's some things you can't necessarily hide
[10:15]not that you would want to hide anything,
[10:17]but like some things are just so obvious
[10:18]and others you get to.
[10:20]I don't know, I had this idea,
[10:21]this sense of ridiculous,
[10:22]but there should be all these like,
[10:25]you know, a line of clothing where you can put things
[10:28]like, you know, struggling with ADHD
[10:31]or like just lost to my mother
[10:35]or like all these things that you may or may not want people
[10:39]to know but they wouldn't know by looking at you.
[10:41]And then if they did know they might have more compassion
[10:44]and empathy when they spoke to you
[10:47]as opposed to just making all sorts of assumptions
[10:49]based on maybe your blazer.
[10:51]Yeah, that is really.
[10:53]And I think as people grow up
[10:56]we realize that absolutely every single person
[10:59]is struggling with something that you'll never know about.
[11:02]And I think realizing that allows you to have empathy
[11:04]for people and be kind, even if it's hard.
[11:08]But I think there's definitely a period of time
[11:11]that most of us go through when we don't realize that.
[11:13]And we feel like we're the only person struggling
[11:14]and everybody is staring at us.
[11:16]And it's just not true.
[11:18]Yeah.
[11:19]I mean, the t-shirt line would have to have
[11:20]lots of different options.
[11:21]Oh really?
[11:22]It has to rise a little.
[11:24]Yeah.
[11:25]Because also so many of the issues that are hidden are,
[11:29]it's the specific combination of those things
[11:32]that makes your own experience unique.
[11:35]Anyway, I'm speaking in generalities and I'm sorry.
[11:38]It just, when I read this part of your book,
[11:40]it just like sparked this whole thought.
[11:41]And anyway, and let's talk about,
[11:44]I mean, you're eating disorder kind of like feeds into this,
[11:46]yeah, no pun intended, as I'm sorry, it was terrible.
[11:50]I have not had enough sleep.
[11:51]That's why I could excuse myself and my bad puns today.
[11:55]Tell me about that part of your life
[11:58]and how it stands today.
[12:00]How did you get from there to here
[12:02]and how do you cope with having it all in the past?
[12:06]So the thing about having an eating disorder
[12:09]is that until it's diagnosed,
[12:12]you don't know that it's an eating disorder,
[12:14]you just think it's what you're supposed to do
[12:16]and how you're supposed to eat.
[12:18]So I was really not aware of it for a real long time,
[12:21]but looking back on my life,
[12:22]I can remember different periods of time
[12:25]that I became really skinny because of things
[12:28]that were happening that were beyond my control.
[12:30]And, you know, I think it probably started in like middle school
[12:34]and like came and went during high school
[12:37]and then came back right after I came out
[12:41]and was really struggling to figure out
[12:43]how to find my queer community,
[12:46]how to reimagine my place in the life I was already leading.
[12:50]And like the only representation I had access to
[12:53]was, of course, the women on the L-word
[12:55]who were real thin and six feet tall.
[12:57]And I was like, oh, that's what I'm supposed to look like.
[12:58]Great, I can do that.
[13:00]And just kind of stopped eating.
[13:02]And it came and went for the next 10 years, I would say.
[13:05]And it came back with a vengeance
[13:08]when I started climbing the ranks at nylon
[13:13]and what was true was that the skinnier
[13:18]to that end blunder that I got,
[13:20]the more attention I got, the more money I got,
[13:23]the more I was noticed by street style photographers.
[13:25]And so the correlation between my weight
[13:28]and my success was very, very real.
[13:30]And I was chosen by my boss to be on camera
[13:34]and to be the brand face.
[13:36]And it really felt like if I wasn't this skinny
[13:39]this wouldn't be happening for me.
[13:41]And I'm not sure if that was untrue
[13:44]based on what I know about how the industry works
[13:46]and that particular generation of people
[13:49]who were making decisions for me.
[13:51]And it kind of just spiraled out of control
[13:54]during that period of time.
[13:55]And what ended up happening was I got really sick.
[13:59]And the person I was dating at the time
[14:01]who I was trying to break up with
[14:04]was basically like, and I had been in therapy.
[14:06]And she was like, you have to tell your therapist
[14:09]that you're not eating.
[14:10]So I told my therapist
[14:12]and then everything kind of fell into place after that.
[14:14]She convinced me that I needed to see a doctor
[14:16]and the doctor sent me up with an nutritionist.
[14:18]And I had this group of women that I really respected
[14:22]saying to me, like, you have anorexia.
[14:26]You need to learn how to eat.
[14:27]And I eventually just had to realize that it was outside
[14:32]of my control that I had lost the privilege
[14:35]of making decisions for my own body
[14:37]because I was doing a bad job.
[14:39]And the thing, and I wrote about this in the book,
[14:42]but the thing that really got to me
[14:43]was in analyzing my different levels.
[14:48]The doctor told me that my T3 was dangerously low.
[14:52]And T3, something you get from like good baths,
[14:55]like fish oils, it lines your brain,
[14:57]it helps the synapses connect.
[14:59]And she was like, this is affecting your thinking.
[15:02]And it's going to take you two years
[15:05]from your recovery to fully heal
[15:07]from the damage you've done to your brain.
[15:09]And I was kind of like, well, my brain is the only thing
[15:13]that I believe in.
[15:13]Like being smart is the thing that I've always had.
[15:17]And if I lose that, I don't know who I am.
[15:19]And it's not worth it to lose that.
[15:22]So I committed myself to my recovery.
[15:26]It's an uphill battle.
[15:28]I think it's something that will always be with me.
[15:32]There's nothing like being quarantined for a year
[15:35]to like really flare some things up.
[15:37]But I also am in a loving, nurturing partnership.
[15:43]I'm in a better job situation.
[15:45]And so the things that felt like they triggered me,
[15:51]just kind of have been removed.
[15:53]I think like what's really important to note
[15:55]about eating disorders is that they happen in context.
[15:58]People don't just like catch anorexia.
[16:01]Like there are things in your life that
[16:05]make you feel like you have to be a certain way.
[16:07]And so keeping that in mind, I've
[16:09]been able to really like forgive myself for certain things.
[16:11]Like I wasn't doing these things in a vacuum.
[16:13]I was responding to things around me.
[16:15]And if I can be aware of those things,
[16:18]then moving forward, it makes it a lot easier.
[16:20]And what do you think?
[16:21]And first of all, thank you for being so open.
[16:23]And I'm sorry for totally prime.
[16:25]I feel like I have the right to prime, which I do not,
[16:26]just because I read your very private memoir.
[16:29]So I feel like I get to continue the conversation
[16:32]that you had with me.
[16:33]But like you didn't know you were having it with me.
[16:36]I'm glad you asked because it's important.
[16:39]And there were moments when I felt like this
[16:41]is too personal, like, oh God, what have I done?
[16:44]And I had some really great conversations with my agent
[16:48]about it.
[16:48]And she was like, you know, this is not about you anymore.
[16:50]This is about the people who need to hear this.
[16:53]And that makes it feel less scary.
[16:56]But since you're watching me over video,
[16:58]you can see that I'm someone who turns red when I'm nervous.
[17:01]So, well, I'm not trying to make you nervous.
[17:05]I hope I'm not being you nervous.
[17:06]I'm sorry.
[17:07]No, you know, it's just vulnerable.
[17:09]Yeah, no.
[17:10]And I have so much respect for you for sharing
[17:12]with the world, everything that you've got there.
[17:15]And I also feel like sometimes it's
[17:17]a little different when you write about it.
[17:18]Like I feel like I can pretty much write about anything
[17:20]because I'm just putting it on the computer
[17:22]in front of my own face.
[17:23]But then if somebody reads it and talks to me,
[17:27]even if it's something stupid, like my son went to school
[17:30]and I feel sad.
[17:31]And then somebody like, excuse me, it's like,
[17:33]oh, are you doing okay?
[17:34]I'm like, oh, you know that I'm sad?
[17:36]Like I'm like, it's like nameless, you know, audience
[17:41]versus like a face.
[17:42]And now here I am like, you know, crying.
[17:44]So no, it's great.
[17:45]And I studied, I'm a, I'm very interested
[17:48]in eating disorders personally.
[17:49]And I like sort of studied them majored in that
[17:51]in psychology and college and worked at an eating disorders clinic.
[17:55]It's a personal interest of mine for various reasons.
[17:57]So anyway, that's in part why I was interested.
[18:01]I actually, I don't know if you've seen Taylor Swift's
[18:03]new documentary.
[18:04]Have you watched that been intense?
[18:06]I can't say I have.
[18:07]I don't even know why I did.
[18:11]I have a teen daughter among other children
[18:13]who should have been watching it instead of me.
[18:15]And my husband and I were like, hey,
[18:17]in the new to watch a Taylor Swift documentary,
[18:19]I was like, I really want to watch it.
[18:20]Anyway, in the documentary, she said the same thing as you,
[18:23]which is she didn't know she hadn't even
[18:25]disturbed either.
[18:26]She just thought that's what you were supposed to do.
[18:27]She was getting really famous and all this stuff.
[18:30]And everybody wondered how to be thin.
[18:31]She felt, and she's like, it was an eating disorder.
[18:34]I was not eating.
[18:35]It was an eating disorder.
[18:37]And she had to then deal with it.
[18:38]And now she feels like, people are just as judgmental
[18:43]with her for having recovered from it and not being
[18:46]as rare thin as she was before.
[18:48]Anyway, if you're super bored, have a lot in common.
[18:54]But it's one of those things.
[18:55]Actually, yes.
[18:56]I mean, she is just a, we're all just like people trying
[18:59]to make it through this crazy world.
[19:01]And even though she has performed in front of millions
[19:04]of people, she struggles with some of the same exact things.
[19:07]And it's not so different in a way.
[19:09]I mean, yes, we might not all have the same trappings,
[19:12]but I don't know.
[19:14]Anyway, off on my Taylor Swift tangent.
[19:17]Tell me a little bit about writing this book.
[19:20]I mean, I was saying how I felt writing.
[19:22]But maybe you didn't feel that way.
[19:23]How did you feel writing this book
[19:25]and putting your feelings out on the page like this?
[19:28]And was it really challenging?
[19:30]Or was it something you felt just so needed to be said?
[19:33]It was both.
[19:34]I had moments where the writing came really easily
[19:39]and moments where it was really painful.
[19:42]And I was like, I need to figure out how to do this,
[19:44]how to write about these things without like retromitizing
[19:47]myself, because you do have to sit in the memory
[19:52]of hard things and figure out like practically speaking,
[19:56]what is relevant, what's not relevant,
[19:57]how do I describe this thing?
[19:59]And it's like.
[20:00]like taking this objectivity to your trauma
[20:03]that I think is in a way really helpful.
[20:05]And in another way was awful.
[20:08]And I think the hardest part was that
[20:11]for the majority of the book,
[20:13]I was working an insane job and had no time.
[20:17]And basically the majority of what I wrote
[20:21]happened on the subway, like on my phone in my notes app
[20:24]because that was my 45 minutes a day
[20:26]where like someone wasn't asking me questions.
[20:29]Hopefully.
[20:31]So it was hard to find time.
[20:34]And then when I had time, it was right after I left my job
[20:38]at nylon and I had nothing but time.
[20:41]And that was also hard because I had to write a new conclusion
[20:46]to the book.
[20:47]And I think my feelings hadn't fully settled
[20:50]about what had happened.
[20:51]And I had to like try to have empathy for my future self
[20:53]about how I would feel about the things that were so immediate.
[20:57]And that was also really good
[20:59]because that kind of became my healing process too
[21:02]was like forcing myself to reach some sort of resolution
[21:05]and have a positive takeaway from things
[21:08]that ultimately didn't feel positive at all.
[21:10]Wow.
[21:11]And that's like the definition of sort of learning and coping.
[21:14]It's like, this was your tool.
[21:16]Yeah, except we all get to hold it.
[21:17]Nice.
[21:19]So what is your new job?
[21:21]You referenced that you have a new, what's your new?
[21:25]I am at Netflix.
[21:26]I joined the editorial and publishing team,
[21:28]which is kind of marketing, but it's social media focused.
[21:32]And I'm running the social media platform
[21:35]that is dedicated to the LGBT community.
[21:37]That's amazing.
[21:38]It's really, really fun.
[21:40]It's social media was like one eighth of what my job used to be.
[21:45]So it's really incredible to be able to just focus on it
[21:48]and like know that I know how to do it
[21:50]and that that's just what I have to do.
[21:53]And it's also really amazing that I didn't create this job
[21:57]that like that's the person who said we have to do representation.
[22:01]It was like they already knew and they created the department.
[22:04]And I'm just like stepping into the role.
[22:06]It's like, it's so different.
[22:07]That's great.
[22:08]Do you have any social media tips?
[22:10]Anything I should do, I'm going here.
[22:13]Like the giver now on every level.
[22:15]Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on what your goal is.
[22:19]Like I think the most important tip for social media
[22:21]is to take breaks from it, honestly.
[22:24]But if you want to grow your platforms,
[22:27]you have to use all of the new tools as they're created.
[22:31]And that's how the algorithm will prioritize you.
[22:33]Yeah, I've heard that like the reels and all that.
[22:35]Yeah, which personally I cannot do reels.
[22:38]I am not good at reels.
[22:40]Yeah, I just won't do it.
[22:41]So I like recorded myself walking through the house
[22:44]or something.
[22:44]I was like, this is not fun.
[22:46]Nobody wants to watch this at all.
[22:48]Me cleaning up my kids choices is so boring.
[22:50]It's like such a specific kind of like whimsical humor.
[22:54]No, I mean, not that you're actually asking,
[22:57]but my goal is not so much to build my platform.
[23:00]It's to make it better.
[23:01]Like my Instagram is private.
[23:03]And I mean, maybe I shouldn't say this,
[23:05]but I don't let that many people follow me
[23:07]because I put a lot of personal stuff out there.
[23:10]And I was getting very nervous by some followers.
[23:15]And I was like, I don't care if I have a zillion followers.
[23:17]Like that's not what I'm trying to do,
[23:20]at least for my personal page.
[23:21]Like I don't know, but I would like to make it better
[23:25]and more engaging.
[23:26]And I use it mostly to write.
[23:28]I mean, I honestly like, like you were saying
[23:31]with your book, like I have something painful happen.
[23:33]And I put it, I mean, I can't believe it's become this,
[23:36]but it's like my sort of like real time diary in a way.
[23:38]Like even if it's a paragraph of how I'm feeling
[23:41]and I get so much immediate feedback, it's amazing.
[23:45]I have found it to be at least not for my podcast page,
[23:49]but at least for my personal page, you know,
[23:51]this untapped resource of like a support group of sorts
[23:56]and different people sort of rise to the top of the bubble
[24:00]depending on what the issue is, right?
[24:02]And so that's interesting too.
[24:04]It sounds like you're using it in the exact way
[24:06]that you should be using it.
[24:08]Oh, okay.
[24:11]Thank you, I'm glad.
[24:13]But you know, I can always do it better.
[24:14]I like to do everything better than I'm always doing it.
[24:16]So I feel like you can relate to that.
[24:19]I'm because I'm just gonna go out and live and see that.
[24:24]So I'm sure you're super busy,
[24:26]but in terms of writing, where do you stand
[24:28]with writing in your life?
[24:30]How do you get that need met now?
[24:33]I have actually been doing a lot of writing this year,
[24:37]or I guess in 2020 because I mean,
[24:41]I just having reasonable work hours has been life changing
[24:44]and not having a commute has been life changing.
[24:46]Like it's never been hard for me to think of things
[24:49]to write.
[24:50]It's been hard for me to find the time.
[24:51]And I really committed myself this past year
[24:55]to filling my free time with writing
[24:57]instead of just like thinking,
[24:58]oh, I should write that down.
[25:00]So I started writing a novel.
[25:03]Oh, that's exciting.
[25:05]So we'll see.
[25:06]I mean, it was the most fun I've ever had doing a thing.
[25:09]So I'm hoping that it resonates with someone somewhere.
[25:13]I mean, in hindsight, I just wish that I had like
[25:17]taken three weeks off from work
[25:20]to write everybody else's perfect.
[25:21]Like I could have saved myself so much sleep
[25:24]if I had just done that,
[25:25]but it really wasn't possible.
[25:26]I was so tied to my office.
[25:31]So I'm really envious of people who are full-time writers
[25:34]who can just do that and live comfortably.
[25:37]I think it's a really hard thing to do.
[25:40]And I like having my health insurance.
[25:43]So I also, having heard from lots of full-time writers
[25:47]the excess of time can be a constraint as well.
[25:51]It can be overwhelming when all you have
[25:53]when your day is cleared to write and be creative.
[25:56]They're something what you're saying.
[25:57]I mean, the image of you writing on your phone
[26:01]in the subway is like from another lifetime, right?
[26:04]The being packed together and like holding up your phone
[26:06]and like that whole thing.
[26:08]But you fit it in because you had to, right?
[26:10]It's like give a busy person something to do if you,
[26:12]and like you said even still like when you had all day,
[26:15]that was also hard.
[26:16]So I feel like some writers, although grateful,
[26:18]and I don't want to speak for other people,
[26:20]but it can be oppressive having that much time
[26:22]and having to produce something of high quality
[26:26]when so many other distractions are always around.
[26:29]So it's always glass half full, I think.
[26:31]And I think it's also important to be like experiencing
[26:35]the world while you're writing about it.
[26:37]And I think like there is a really real reason
[26:40]why I didn't have any ideas for a book when I was 22,
[26:44]and that's because I hadn't like lived at all.
[26:46]And if it weren't for the experiences of the past 10 years,
[26:50]I'm not sure if my perspective would be something
[26:53]that could fill a whole book.
[26:54]Like you have to be, you have to have experiences
[26:58]to have something to say.
[26:59]So I think that's also what makes it hard
[27:01]when you have nothing to do.
[27:02]But right is that like it's just you.
[27:05]And it's so solitary.
[27:07]And I think you talking to yourself only gets you so far,
[27:11]at least for me, especially for a nonfiction.
[27:14]Yeah, that's completely, completely true.
[27:16]I mean, imagine how much more you'll have to say
[27:18]when you're my age.
[27:18]I mean, I'm like, I'm 44.
[27:20]I mean, you're gonna have so much more that's happened.
[27:22]And then I think of people who are like 70 writing their stories
[27:26]every year I game, there's more material.
[27:28]Even some things that I was like thinking of doing
[27:30]before the pandemic, I had like left this like half
[27:33]finished book proposal.
[27:34]And I looked at it recently and I was like, oh,
[27:36]because I hadn't lived the last two parts of my book.
[27:40]And then I like put them in.
[27:41]I was like, oh, well, okay, now it's done.
[27:43]Yeah, exactly.
[27:44]So anyway, well, what is your parting advice
[27:47]to aspiring authors?
[27:48]I know we've talked a lot about writing that
[27:50]if you have any parting advice.
[27:51]Yeah, I mean, I think the thing about writing
[27:54]is you have to just do it.
[27:56]Like I think within the aspiring,
[28:00]it's so easy to feel like if you just wish for it hard enough,
[28:03]it'll happen.
[28:05]And it's not going to happen like that.
[28:08]You have to just commit yourself to doing a lot of hard work.
[28:12]and like making time for it and putting yourself out there
[28:16]and pitching it.
[28:17]Yeah, that's pretty true.
[28:19]That's great advice.
[28:21]Well, thank you.
[28:22]Thank you for your book.
[28:23]Everybody else is perfect.
[28:25]Thank you for letting me like talk to you
[28:27]in like, I'm a total stranger about all these personal issues.
[28:31]And thank you for being brave enough to share them
[28:33]and respectful and all that stuff.
[28:35]So thanks.
[28:37]Thank you so much.
[28:37]It was a pleasure talking to you.
[28:39]You too, and take care.
[28:40]Good bye.
[28:41]Bye.
[28:43]Thanks to page and pairing.com for sponsoring today's episode.
[28:47]Go check them out, page and pairing.com, the weekly email that
[28:51]brings you book, wine, and recipe recommendations.
[28:54]And just a reminder, again, please pre-order a copy of my book.
[28:57]Moms don't have time to a quarantine anthology.
[29:00]And go to my website under the anthology tab for the fundraiser.
[29:05]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me for,
[29:08]and I should have mentioned all proceeds
[29:11]go to COVID-19 research.
[29:13]So please join me for the fundraiser.
[29:15]Thanks so much.
[29:16]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[29:18]to Read Books.
[29:19]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans,
[29:23]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:25]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com
[29:27]and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:29]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:31]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at the Texture Sound
[29:34]for the Sound Editing.
[29:35]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:37]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.