Brittany Barnett, A KNOCK AT MIDNIGHT

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[3:56]Brittany K. Barnett is an attorney, author and entrepreneur.

[4:00]Her memoir, a knock at midnight, was published in 2020 and was named the number one book of the year by Amazon.

[4:08]Books in the Amazon book review.

[4:10]Brittany was a corporate attorney and did a lot of pro bono representation of clients who were buried alive in federal prison under draconian drug laws.

[4:19]Her dedication to this life-changing work paid off tremendously and helped several clients who received executive clemency from President Barack Obama as the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother.

[4:32]Brittany knows firsthand the impact of mass incarceration, which is far reaching and devastates families and entire communities.

[4:39]So she dedicated herself to transforming the criminal justice system.

[4:43]Brittany founded two nonprofits to carry out her life's work, the buried alive project, which works to dismantle life without parole senses, handed down under federal drug laws and girls embracing mothers dedicated to empowering girls with mothers in prison.

[4:57]Welcome, Brittany. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books.

[5:02]Thank you for having me.

[5:04]I am embarrassed to say that I did not know about your book until it won the Amazon number one book of the year and I don't know how that's possible and I must be like under a rock and I try to be on top of all the great books but until then I hadn't even heard about your book and I am so glad I did because it is so good.

[5:25]You are not getting midnight. Oh my gosh amazing.

[5:28]So I have like a bazillion questions for you but first I just have to say I am so impressed by you by not just your writing but everything that happened in this book, your work ethic, your determination, how hard, you're just amazing.

[5:44]You're like a total rock star and I'm like, I need to talk to you today.

[5:48]Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

[5:53]Okay, so for listeners you might not know what your book is about. Would you mind telling them a little bit about the backstory and how it's led to your becoming the advocate you are today for so many people.

[6:06]Yeah, I grew up in rural East Texas, one of those doors unlocked windows wide open pieces of rural Texas and truly had a happy childhood.

[6:20]Unfortunately, during my childhood my mom was also suffering with a drug addiction and her addiction ultimately led to her going to prison and having a mom in prison, it really brought me close and made me very conscious of this issue of mass incarceration that our country faces and so during this time and being so close I got really interested in the criminal legal system,

[6:48]began representing people who were fundamentally set to die in prison under these outdated federal drug laws and so the book follows that journey and follows my journey growing up in rural East Texas, it follows the events surrounding my mother's incarceration and that experience of having a mom in prison.

[7:12]And yeah, the book is truly a memoir that shows how I came to understand injustice in the courts, how I discovered genius behind bars and just how this journey caused my definition of freedom to evolve.

[7:33]How did you remember all of this, first of all, this is such a minor point, but the detail in your book is so great, did you record everything as you went along, like how did how are you able because the way you wrote it, it was like we were literally like standing on your shoulder watching everything you went through.

[7:52]the time you were little to when you then, you know, even show us into Shronda's family and her mother and the being because the accident, I mean, like every detail is so vivid.

[8:02]In fact, but I went on your Instagram and saw a picture of your mom and then your mom Alina, I was like, oh yeah, totally, that's totally what they look like.

[8:11]Yeah, it was a long journey for me to write that book. It took me over two years to write the book and I was just very intentional with every piece of it from every word to every punctuation mark, you know, and so with each section I just became very intimate with it.

[8:32]I made sure that I went back into time in that way and that really helped, you know, once you're there in present and conscious about a particular moment, it's very surprising on how much memory does come back.

[8:46]So did you have any, I mean, I know you didn't, but I was going to ask if you had any idea about the injustices of all the drug laws because I definitely did not realize all of the how unfair and even though, you know, 100 to one sentencing for the difference between like crack cocaine and cocaine and when you're part of conspiracy versus if you're not and how biased it was towards black people and it's just insane.

[9:11]I couldn't believe all the data that you discovered and as you like show the reader, you seem to really surprised by a lot of it too. Tell me about that.

[9:20]Oh yeah, I had no idea. So I am in law school and truly wanting to be a corporate lawyer.

[9:28]I was going to follow my path for that. I had a job lined up after law school and corporate law.

[9:34]So during this time I took a critical race theory course and it's a course that analyzes the intersection between race and the law.

[9:41]And I was writing my paper about this disparity in sentencing, you mentioned between powder cocaine and crack cocaine and how it was disproportionately impacting people of color in particular black people.

[9:54]And I was shocked by what I learned. I was shocked at how little to know legislative history.

[10:00]Three was there surrounding this law,

[10:02]which was the 1986 anti-drug abuse act.

[10:06]I was shocked at how arbitrary the disparity

[10:10]in sentencing was with this 100 to one ratio,

[10:14]which means that you could have 500 grams of powder cocaine.

[10:18]I could have only five grams of crack

[10:21]and we would receive the same sentence in prison.

[10:24]And you know, it's not lost on anyone,

[10:27]then especially now that in the late 80s,

[10:29]more affluent white people were using powder cocaine

[10:33]and crack cocaine was running rampant

[10:35]through communities of color in particular black communities.

[10:38]And this caused such a wide disparity in sentencing

[10:43]to the extent that even today,

[10:45]over 80% of the people in federal prison

[10:48]for drug offenses are black and brown people.

[10:51]And it was shocking to me as a law student

[10:53]to learn that, especially learning it based on

[10:58]just how unfounded these assumptions were

[11:00]that crack cocaine was more severe than powder.

[11:03]And what was also shocking to me was after the law passed,

[11:07]the sentencing commission and members of Congress and courts,

[11:11]they all began to see just how unjust these laws were.

[11:16]And so to see how the laws were put in a place

[11:18]to see this change of heart, if you will,

[11:22]surrounding the laws, but to know that people are still

[11:25]in prison, serving these draconian sentences,

[11:28]it was quite eye opening for me.

[11:30]And even as laws started to change and you would get so excited,

[11:34]then you would realize that a lot of them weren't retroactive.

[11:37]So I feel like you were bringing your hands

[11:39]a lot of the time, it was like how could you change it?

[11:41]And then finally, you were able to figure out your path.

[11:45]Absolutely, absolutely.

[11:46]It was totally just the way it reads in the book,

[11:50]trial and error, for sure.

[11:53]And even learning that, like, oh, I'm getting so excited

[11:57]because I see how minds are evolving

[12:00]and this country's evolving as it relates to crack cocaine.

[12:03]And I'm seeing the law change.

[12:05]And then I'm like, oh, it's not retroactive.

[12:08]Oh, another law change.

[12:10]Oh, it's not retroactive either.

[12:12]And so it was just unconscionable to me,

[12:15]that we have people serving life sentences today

[12:19]under these outdated, federal drug laws.

[12:22]And to me, and I would think to any reasonable person

[12:26]that the law is wrong today, it was wrong yesterday.

[12:29]Right.

[12:30]And I saw, and now, of course, you've

[12:31]started all these different nonprofits

[12:34]to helping people escape from these sentences

[12:37]and overturn what had been going on before.

[12:39]You're buried alive projects on the website.

[12:42]It said something like there were still three or 4,000 people,

[12:46]3,400, maybe, I don't know, I can't remember.

[12:48]Something awful, like all these people

[12:50]and the laws have changed and they shouldn't have been in there

[12:53]and they shouldn't be serving life sentences.

[12:55]And yet there they are.

[12:56]And like, what can we do about it?

[12:57]And that's why, so tell me about how the nonprofit has built

[13:01]that you've built up around it and how those people can get out.

[13:05]Yeah, I co-founded the buried alive project

[13:09]with two of my clients, Charanda Jones and Corey Jacobs.

[13:12]They were both sentenced to life for federal drug cases.

[13:16]Both had never had any convictions before,

[13:20]Bellini or otherwise.

[13:21]And we were able to secure clemency for them

[13:24]from President Barack Obama.

[13:26]And once they were free, they felt a survivors remorse,

[13:31]if you will, because they knew they had left so many people

[13:33]behind who were just as deserving of freedom as they were.

[13:38]And so I linked arms with my clients

[13:40]and we co-founded the buried alive project

[13:42]to provide legal representation pro bono

[13:46]for people serving life, for federal drug offenses.

[13:50]And to date, we've helped free dozens of men and women

[13:54]who were set to die in prison, who are now living their life

[13:57]after life as we like to call it.

[13:59]And you know, still there are hundreds and hundreds

[14:02]and hundreds more.

[14:03]And so we're doing what we can to build a super team

[14:07]of lawyers to help litigate these cases through the courts

[14:11]and also working on clemencies and working through Congress,

[14:15]quite frankly, to ensure that we have laws that are changed.

[14:19]What was that like?

[14:21]What's the feeling like when you've literally been able

[14:24]through your hard work and dedication,

[14:27]given someone their entire life back?

[14:29]Tell me about that moment.

[14:31]Oh, it never gets old.

[14:33]It is a feeling that, you know,

[14:37]words can't even begin to touch.

[14:39]It's such a joy and elation.

[14:43]People have to understand, you know, and remember

[14:46]that life without parole is the second most

[14:50]severe penalty permitted by law in America

[14:53]other than the death penalty.

[14:55]And this sentence, it screams a person as beyond hope.

[14:59]It screams a person as beyond redemption.

[15:02]And it truly suffocates mass potential

[15:05]as it varies people alive.

[15:07]And to know that my clients, people like Shimaranda Jones

[15:12]and Corey Jacobs and Chris Young, who you read about in the book

[15:16]are set to die in prison.

[15:19]They're literally serving the same amount of time

[15:21]as the uniballman.

[15:22]It's heartbreaking for me.

[15:23]And so to be able to tell them that we've given that

[15:26]life sentence back as we like to say, and they are free.

[15:30]Yeah, I get chills just thinking about it, you know.

[15:34]You are an angel.

[15:36]I mean, truly that this is your become your life's work

[15:39]and that you're so smart and dedicated that you can do it.

[15:43]It's amazing.

[15:43]Like it's just amazing.

[15:45]It's amazing to watch from the outside and to read about it

[15:48]and even when your name was in my inbox,

[15:52]I was like, oh my gosh, because I feel like you're just

[15:55]such a hero.

[15:56]It's truly amazing.

[15:58]And I feel like it would be so great if other people

[16:01]would follow in your footsteps, other people

[16:03]who have your brains and your potential,

[16:05]who could work towards helping people get their lives back

[16:09]versus, I know in the beginning, you

[16:11]wanted to be clear-hustable and be a big corporate lawyer

[16:15]and you were and everything.

[16:17]But wow, the value you've added to society

[16:20]by having all these people come back and people's lives.

[16:24]Even reducing the sentence for your one family friend

[16:27]when you were like, well, I got him from life

[16:29]to something like 32 years.

[16:31]And how they were all accelerating.

[16:33]I mean, it's a huge, it's just a huge deal.

[16:36]I mean, it sounds so obvious, but I don't know.

[16:39]I'm just heaping praise, which is so thank you.

[16:42]I appreciate it.

[16:43]I appreciate it so much.

[16:44]And it's an honor and a true privilege for me

[16:49]to do this work.

[16:50]I am grateful to my clients for trusting me

[16:53]with their lives, literally, trusting me with their lives.

[16:57]And it's a task that I don't take lightly.

[16:59]And I always say I fight for my clients' lives

[17:02]as if they were my own, because it is.

[17:06]We are all one.

[17:07]And what impacts one directly impacts us all, indirectly.

[17:13]And there is so much untapped genius

[17:17]in this population of people, people who are incarcerated,

[17:21]who are formerly incarcerated.

[17:23]And I've seen it firsthand.

[17:24]And it's true ingenuity, our nation needs to thrive.

[17:28]And so the human potential there keeps me going.

[17:31]My clients, prayers, and strength, and empowerment

[17:34]keeps me going.

[17:35]And yeah, I agree with you.

[17:37]I truly hope that more people join us

[17:42]to help push and drive for impactful change.

[17:45]And tell me about gem and Malena rain and 16 cap,

[17:51]all these like, how are you running

[17:53]for different nonprofits in the same time?

[17:55]This is insane.

[17:56]How are you sleeping when you're following everything?

[17:59]Yeah, well, only two of them are non-profits.

[18:01]You know, if it's business.

[18:03]Yeah, I totally believe we can't non-profit ourselves

[18:07]to a better and just society.

[18:09]But I do have two non-profits buried a lot of projects

[18:12]and girls embracing mothers.

[18:14]And girls embracing mothers is a non-profit dad

[18:17]and powers young girls with mothers in prison.

[18:20]We partner with the Texas Department of Criminal Justice

[18:23]and every single month, take a group of girls

[18:25]to visit their moms in prison.

[18:28]And we're truly working to break the cycle

[18:31]and build a bond.

[18:33]And that organization is so near and dear to my heart.

[18:36]It's to them solely from my own experience

[18:40]of having a mother in prison.

[18:42]And we've been operating for seven years now.

[18:45]I have amazing teams.

[18:47]That's one of the reasons I'm able to carry it all.

[18:50]I are program girls embracing mothers,

[18:52]our program director, Angelica.

[18:54]She was formerly incarcerated.

[18:57]In fact, her and her daughter in our program

[18:58]just a few years ago.

[19:00]And that's so important to me

[19:02]that directly impacted people are centered,

[19:06]they're amplified and you know,

[19:08]they're leading the way on any movement

[19:09]and any work surrounding them.

[19:11]And so linking arms with surrounding Corey

[19:14]with the buried alive project

[19:15]and having Angelica Lee girls embracing mothers

[19:18]is truly my life's work

[19:20]to ensure that they are at the table for sure.

[19:24]And Melina Rain is a company named after my grandma,

[19:28]Melina.

[19:29]And it's there.

[19:30]I just want to cultivate talent from the South.

[19:32]Hit writers from the South, showcase their talents,

[19:35]break through to get opportunity.

[19:38]And 16 capital partners is similar.

[19:40]I'm working with that company to bridge the gap

[19:43]to provide resources and capitals

[19:44]to formerly incarcerated entrepreneurs.

[19:47]You know, one thing I realized doing the work

[19:49]and writing the book really helped me reflect on this

[19:52]is we have to change the laws.

[19:56]We have to continue our work to get people out of prison.

[19:59]But I realized.

[20:00]also that we can't keep rescuing people from prison and restoring them to poverty. And I'm holding

[20:05]this vision of creating sustainable liberation, you know, which includes economic liberation and

[20:11]includes equity. It includes ensuring that directly impacted people have access to resources and

[20:17]capital, not just so they can survive, but so they can thrive and flourish. You know, and that's

[20:23]what I'm working with 16 capital partners. We've invested in a couple of companies so far

[20:29]that are ran by formerly incarcerated people, including Sharonda Jones, who is recently in the

[20:34]process of opening a food truck and she'll hire directly impacted people. You know, to work

[20:41]in her food truck. And so it's just about paying it forward and, you know, realizing too that

[20:47]systemic change doesn't always have to come from Capitol Hill. We need the laws to change for sure,

[20:53]but the people that we are freeing, they're pushing forward a movement of such power and dignity,

[20:59]that they're going to create a semi change and they're going to have a positive impact on

[21:03]anyone that they encounter in the future. And it all just keeps me so hopeful. It's amazing.

[21:10]So how has your life changed if at all since this book came out and your story became a much

[21:16]more widely known phenomenon? Well, it's been amazing. I'm truly grateful at just the public

[21:23]reception of the book. I'm self thankful to Amazon editors for choosing my book as the best book

[21:30]of 2020. Never in a million years at this small town country girl think that this will be the case,

[21:35]but it's been great. It's really helped to elevate what's important for me. And that's this issue

[21:41]of mass incarceration and help raise awareness for causes I'm very passionate about.

[21:49]And that, you know, that's always a win. Do you find any time for yourself where you're not like

[21:55]working? Have any time when you're not emailing or doing stuff or fighting or I don't know,

[22:00]I feel like even when you would talk about going to work and then you'd come home and then you'd

[22:04]have these like buckets of cases and files and transcripts. And I'm like, did you get dinner? Like,

[22:10]when is the first day? Well, I'm an eating word, you know, I do. It is something that I'm working to

[22:17]center the self care practice and, you know, self care taking it back to its radical rules, right?

[22:24]Like, not self care is this form of escapism, but self care in order to rest so that I can be

[22:30]fully restored to continue the work, you know, the amazing poet Audrey Lord says, you know, self

[22:38]care isn't an act of adult self indulgence is an act of self preservation, you know, and it's an act

[22:46]radical act. And that's what I try to try to practice. And I'm practicing, which means I'm getting

[22:52]better. I'm not all the way there. Yeah, but I definitely try to work to take that time to focus on

[22:57]me. Is this going to be a movie? Has this been option? It must have been. Well, you know, we're in

[23:03]a lot of talks. So hopefully there's some news I can share soon. Okay. I bet I can't wait to watch

[23:09]it. I mean, I feel like I watched it because they read it. It's so cinematic. The whole thing

[23:13]Oh, that's a cool writer. Like everything is just so clear. And oh my gosh, how is I want to

[23:19]like follow up on all the characters? Like what's up with your sister? How's she doing?

[23:23]Yes, she does. She's doing amazing. She's actually in law enforcement now. And yeah, she's doing

[23:32]really well. I'm so proud of her. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about like what

[23:40]is next. You have so many projects, so many good deeds you're doing. Do you want to write

[23:45]anymore? Do you want to just soldier on with your all of your, you know, mission driven activities?

[23:52]Like what is what is your next five years look like for you? I mean, you know, I won't rule out

[23:57]writing another book. I definitely won't rule that out. Definitely going to keep moving forward

[24:03]with what I'm calling this liberation heist, getting people out of prison, making sure we're serving

[24:09]women and girls who are directly impacted as well. You know, and then I'm going to continue the

[24:15]work to ensure that resources and capital are allocated to formerly incarcerated people and just

[24:23]as impacted people for sure. So do you have any ambition to run for office? I don't. Okay, I don't.

[24:31]You say it's in like a, it's no failure. I'm just asking, you know, you know, no, I don't. It's not my

[24:37]thing. I get it. I totally get it. So back to the writing for two seconds. You said it took

[24:43]two years, which you said was a long time, which PS is not a long time for a book.

[24:49]Things I've heard, like where in when did you write this? Like when did you fit this into life?

[24:54]And then do you have any advice to aspiring authors? Yes. Well, I'll first start with my advice

[25:00]to aspiring artists. And that's to do it. Share your story. The world needs your story. No one

[25:06]can tell your story or any fictional story you're dreaming up better than you. And the world needs

[25:12]it. You know, that is motivation that I received from people that I want to definitely pass that

[25:17]along. I found time in between the work. Honestly, I had hoped to set aside a period of time

[25:26]to just focus solely on the book, but you know, freedom calls. And as my shirt says, there's

[25:31]nothing more urgent than freedom. And so I was still able to set aside blocks of time to write

[25:38]in box of time to work. And for me, it was a process that was in a way therapeutic.

[25:47]As I talked so much about my childhood experiences and having a mother who was incarcerated.

[25:52]So I had to really be gentle with myself during the writing of that. And also ensuring that whatever

[26:01]time I set aside that I was solely focused on the work, especially related to my client stories,

[26:09]I was so intentional there. And I wanted to really show their heart beats on the page and hopes that

[26:20]their lives and stories could impact the reader on the page the way it impacted me in real life.

[26:27]And I knew, you know, because we're dealing with such a vulnerable population and

[26:32]mass incarceration still has all these pigments and stereotypes that, you know, one word, if I chose

[26:39]one wrong word, you know, it could help perpetuate these pigments and biases. And so I was

[26:45]really intentional with my client stories. I really held them close to heart. And I'm just so

[26:51]hopeful that people see their brilliance and genius and just truly how amazing, amazing they are.

[26:57]And you know, I say all the time, you know, many, many people in prison, they're not bad people

[27:03]that just made bad choices. And we all made bad choices every day. And really having a chance at

[27:10]redemption is something truly powerful. Amazing. We didn't even get to like the abuse of

[27:17]I mean, there's like so much in this book. This is and I see all these books behind you by all

[27:23]these amazing authors. So I'd love to read as well. I see the kind love to read. I love to read.

[27:29]You get to actually have behind your shoulder, I'm seeing both of them books. Not, yes, there we go.

[27:35]Tell me about read. So what are you just read everything or what's your favorite kind of book to

[27:40]read? You know, I read everything. I really am hooked on reading books by black authors from the

[27:48]South. As you see, Jasmine Ward behind me, TSA layman behind me with heavy Sarah Broome, the yellow

[27:56]house. I've recently read Brit Bennett, the vanishing cast. She's coming to South. Well, it's so

[28:02]good. And I had the podcast. You should listen. Oh, really? I would love to read her one day. I

[28:08]have been reading so many memoirs and not fiction. And to dive into her book that's fiction. Oh,

[28:14]my God, it was so good. And then you know, I mixed it with other books. Like I'm reading a book

[28:19]on the business of venture capital. Right now, you know, as I'm trying to break into that space

[28:26]to create access for directly impacted people. So it's all a mix, but I've definitely been

[28:33]finding myself draw more to fiction lately. Well, that's a great example of amazing fiction.

[28:38]And I feel like your book and her book were two of the best of this whole year. So,

[28:43]Oh, thank you. And you should definitely, you know, if you ever need a moderator, I'm happy to

[28:47]moderate that conversation. Thank you. With over your mind. Yeah, I'd invite you over and have

[28:55]like a salon. Anyway. And I also have a book club called Divis Virtual Book Club. So if you

[29:02]have any interest, I would love to have my whole book club read your book. And then you come talk

[29:06]and like do some Q&A for half an hour. I don't know if you'd be interested. I would love to. Let's do

[29:10]it. Let's do it. Okay. You know, you got times in the New Year. So, okay. Awesome. Well,

[29:16]for any thank you, thank you so much for all that you do for people in the world. And all you do

[29:22]to uplift others and open everybody's eyes to the injustices that are there and do it in such a

[29:27]classy way. It's just really awesome. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me today. It's been

[29:33]a pleasure to start my day off. And you are a GM. Thank you. Thank you. All right. We'll stay in touch.

[29:42]Book club coming up. Okay. Bye. Thanks to page and pairing.com for sponsoring today's

[29:51]episode. Go check them out, page and pairing.com, the weekly email that brings you

[29:57]book, wine, and recipe recommendations. And just to wrap

[30:00]My dear, again, please pre-order a copy of my book,

[30:02]Moms Don't Have Time To, A Quarantine Anthology,

[30:05]and go to my website under the Anthology tab

[30:10]for the fundraiser, and I hope you'll buy a ticket

[30:13]and join me for, and I should have mentioned,

[30:15]I'll proceed to go to COVID-19 research.

[30:18]So please join me for the fundraiser.

[30:21]Thanks so much.

[30:21]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have

[30:24]Time to Read Books.

[30:25]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,

[30:27]at ZB-O-N's and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[30:30]Also sign up for my newsletter at zB-O-N's.com

[30:33]and sign up for my virtual book club

[30:34]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[30:37]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at TextureSound

[30:39]for the Sound Editing.

[30:41]And thank you to Morningland Productions

[30:42]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.