Paola Mendoza and Abby Sher, SANCTUARY
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[1:42]Paula Mendoza and Abby Sherr are the co-authors of Sanctuary and I did an Instagram line with them about this book and want to tell you a little more about them individually.
[1:52]Paula is a film director or activist author and artist working at the leading edge of human rights.
[1:58]As a co-founder and artistic director of the Women's March, Paula co-author The New York Times Bestseller Together We Rise.
[2:05]She's a film director whose films have premiered at prestigious international film festivals and tackled the complex issues of poverty and immigration on women.
[2:12]and children in the United States. She was named Glamor's Woman of the Year in 2017 and won a filmmaker magazine's 25 new faces of independent film.
[2:21]Co-author Abby Sherr, who I've already had on the podcast for her book called Miss You Love You Hate You Buy, is an award winning writer and performer.
[2:29]She's the author of many books, including all the ways the world can end, breaking free, amen, amen.
[2:35]memoir of a girl who couldn't stop praying and the young adult novel kissing snowflakes.
[2:40]Abby's work has appeared in the first season of Amazon TV's Modern Love, as well as in The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Self-Jane L. Heeb and Red Book.
[2:52]Abby has also written and or performed for The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Second City, Upright Citizens Brigade, HBO and NPR.
[3:00]In Sanctuary, Co-author's Paula and Abby have crafted a narrative that is as haunting as it is hopeful.
[3:06]The young adult debut was released to critical acclaim and creates a future dystopia where siblings must escape a xenophobic government to find sanctuary.
[3:15]Hi Paula. Hi. How are you?
[3:18]I'm good. How are you?
[3:19]I'm good. Sorry. It took so long for us to connect on this, but congratulations on your book.
[3:24]Thank you so much. Thank you so much for reading it and having me here today.
[3:29]Oh, you're welcome. It's a chilling sort of thought what would happen if this was reality.
[3:34]How did you envision this alternate universe? Like what made you? How did you think about it?
[3:39]And then how did you make it into a novel or did it all which came first?
[3:44]So I've been working in the immigrant rights space as a storyteller for over 15 years.
[3:50]And I've heard and had the privilege to listen to the stories of immigrants specifically undocumented
[3:56]immigrants in this country for a very long time. In 2018, the Trump administration implemented
[4:01]a horrible policy called Family Separation. And what that did for those that might not remember
[4:07]is that families across the border, the southern border into this country were ripped apart from
[4:12]their children and their kids were placed in foster care as their kids were placed in strangers at
[4:17]some instances. And to this date almost three years later, families are still not off families have been
[4:24]reunited. So in that moment of despair and darkness, there was a group of us that started organizing
[4:31]against this policy. And we organized marches across the country. And the, I don't want to ever say
[4:37]good news, but there was a positive outcome in that the zero tolerance policy that allowed
[4:42]family separation as we knew it, then it stopped. And it was ended within six weeks. And then
[4:48]I started to imagine what would have happened if we hadn't stopped that policy. What would that
[4:53]allow the Trump administration to like what would he have done next? What would have been the
[4:58]horrible thing that he would have done next? And I started to imagine the beginnings of the
[5:03]world of sanctuary. And I started to see this really scary, dark, unfortunate place that I didn't
[5:09]want to live in in the United States that seemed possible, but definitely not the future that
[5:15]we wanted. And so I then asked myself, what's the answer to this horrible nightmare? And the
[5:22]the answer was Bali, our main character, a 16 year old in the book. And she's undocumented in
[5:27]the book. And she, she does extraordinary things to protect herself and ultimately protect her community.
[5:32]And that was the beginnings of sanctuary. And then I, I started working with Abby Sure, who's my
[5:38]co-writer and the two of us really dug deep into the bones of the book and wrote this together.
[5:44]And what made you decide to have a co-writer? It's a great question. Three things of them being
[5:48]really honest. One, I have written a book previously by myself. And I hated every moment of writing
[5:53]by myself. Okay, it was just to just I'm a collaborator. I love collaborating as an artist as a writer,
[6:00]as a director. And that process was so solitary. And so lonely that I was like, I will never do that
[6:05]again. That's one to also the Trump administration working within immigration and telling stories of
[6:12]immigrants, what we've seen in the past three and a half years is that Trump really attacks
[6:17]and dislikes immigrants. And as policies are really horrible towards immigrants. And so I knew that
[6:23]I didn't have the luxury at this moment in time to post up in my house for two years and write
[6:28]and just write a book. I knew that my I was going to be needed to do other things on top of writing
[6:34]this book. And so in order to accomplish to write this book within the two year time period that
[6:40]we had given ourselves, I had given us because I wanted it to come out before the election.
[6:44]I knew that I couldn't do it alone. And so those are the two real answers. And I think
[6:50]the third answer I would say is that I'm a better artist when I collaborate.
[6:54]All of my previous work, whether it's filmmaking, whether it's visual art, photography,
[6:59]writing, I'm a better artist. I create better. I enjoy the process better when I am collaborating.
[7:06]And I feel like my voice is actually much clearer when I'm collaborating. So I was excited to
[7:11]experiment with collaborating on writing a novel, which is probably the artistic process that has
[7:18]the least amount of collaborations in it. So how did you do it together? Like did you each take a
[7:23]section or did you literally were you on the zooms together? How did you, what was the process like
[7:28]of your cover? Everyone is very curious. Yeah, I know I'm always so intrigued by this. How do you
[7:35]do this? It's like, you know, it's like making magic together as like a witch's bro or something.
[7:41]Anyway, it is a witch's bro. It absolutely is. And we didn't like set out with any specific rules
[7:48]in place. It just kind of fell into place. So we don't live in the same city. We live close enough,
[7:54]but not in the same city. So a lot of the work was actually done remotely. So Google docs were
[8:00]our best friends. We wrote on Google live on Google all the time. We would plan out the story
[8:09]more than just a detailed outline, like specifically all of the action plot points of what was
[8:14]happening when and how the character got here and what they encountered. And the conversation was
[8:19]about this. And it was a very, very, very, very detailed outline for lack of a better word. So we
[8:25]each knew where the story was going. And then that took obviously a very long time because it was
[8:31]so detailed. And then we would go and we would individually write and our strengths revealed
[8:37]themselves. Abby is much more her strength is in character and in detail. And my strength is in
[8:44]plot and in story. And so we knew that that's where our mastery was. And that's what we gravitated
[8:51]to though. It doesn't mean that we didn't work on other aspects of it because we did. At certain
[8:56]points, you know, the drafts were just going back and forth and we're editing and writing and writing
[9:01]and going back and forth with one another. So it's unclear like exactly who did what because it just
[9:07]becomes this, which is brutal, as you said, we were just there stirring the pot. Well, it's great.
[9:14]You found somebody you could work so well with. I mean, that's so great. You are great at collaborating.
[9:18]I just feel like it's so easy to find the wrong person or you can like someone a lot. It's a person,
[9:23]but maybe you also work stuff well together. And you don't know until you until you know. And so
[9:29]hard to get into that when you're writing a book, I would say. It's true, but it's a marriage,
[9:35]but it's a marriage that will last a finite period of time. So hopefully it doesn't end in divorce
[9:41]in our case. It did not end in divorce. We're renewing our vows. So that is good. Are you ready
[9:47]another book together? Yeah, that's the plan. We want to. Awesome. We want to write the second book
[9:52]to sanctuary. Maybe if marriage actually was for a finite period of time, more people would be able
[9:57]to be successful at it. If you knew.
[10:00]you know, just saying, maybe it's time, maybe I'm something. I don't know, not that I want my marriage to
[10:05]end up very happy. Anyway, back to the book. So tell me a little more about your background in film
[10:14]and photography and how it all kind of like, how all this creative, all these creative juices
[10:18]seem to flow new. How did this all happen? And how did you get started? I started off as an actress
[10:24]actually. I have my undergraduate and my graduate degree in the theater and acting and directing
[10:29]and so that was what I wanted to do. But then I realized as I started working professionally
[10:36]as an actress that the life of an actress was not for me because I didn't want to tell the
[10:42]stories that were being told. I had other desires for the stories and it was very unfulfilling
[10:49]and I had nominal success. I was a working actress but it was just not a happy place for me.
[10:56]And so I decided that I wanted to make a documentary. So I picked up a camera. I worked with one of my
[11:02]best friends. He had never made a documentary. Either the two of us were like, let's figure this
[11:06]out and we had a lot of filmmaking friends. So we called them and we were like, we have this camera.
[11:10]How do we turn it on? That's where we started and we followed a family for about a year and a half
[11:16]really committed to their story and learned how to make a movie while we were making a movie
[11:23]both of us did. And then we edited the film, learned how to edit while we were editing and got
[11:30]finished this film and I fell in love with the movie making process. I fell in love with the ability
[11:35]to see a story and vision a story and tell the story how I wanted to tell it. And then I was like,
[11:41]okay, I was a documentary. Let me, I want to write a script. Never had I written a script but obviously
[11:46]had read so many plays and as an actress I'd read so many scripts and I was like, I'm just going to try
[11:52]work with a friend of mine who had been my editor on the documentary and I was like, let's write
[11:56]this script together and then she'd never written a feature script either and she was like, okay,
[12:00]let's do it. So we figured it out. I mean, it was based on my mom's story when we first came to
[12:04]this country and the film was called Anthony Nelson. I was like, well, I want to direct this.
[12:08]Let's co-direct it together and so we co-directed Anthony Nelson. And that's kind of just been
[12:12]the process. My first book, the opportunity landed in my lap and I was like, I've never written a book
[12:17]before but let me try. When it comes from this idea of experimenting in different mediums comes
[12:25]from actually something that I, when I taught, I taught quite a lot before I had my son.
[12:30]It was something that I told my students and it's really the mantra that I live by as an artist
[12:35]and I would tell my students, don't be afraid to create bad art. We will all create bad art.
[12:42]If you just embrace the fact that what you try and do might be bad but it doesn't make you a bad
[12:48]artist, it's more freeing because I look at my work and what I'm working on as the body of work
[12:57]that I will be work that I'm telling the story, the entire body of my work that I'm working on
[13:01]for my entire life. That will determine my value personally and I'm not talking about the value
[13:07]to the exterior world but my value personally as an artist. There might be some work that is way
[13:13]better than other work and there might be, you know, there might be some, there definitely is some
[13:18]bad shit that I've created but that doesn't determine my value as an artist. Nor does the quote
[13:23]unquote masterpiece I might have created to determine my value as an artist. It's about the entirety
[13:28]of my body of work and knowing that it's allowed me to go out and experiment and try things that
[13:33]I've never tried before and get an idea and be like okay let's try it, let's figure it out and
[13:38]let's try it and see if I like it and see if it works and sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't.
[13:44]Your son is so lucky because that's like exactly what they tell you to do as a parent is encourage
[13:49]your kids just to try and not to worry about if they're doing it well or not doing it well because
[13:53]that's like how you end up creating all of this stuff if you're afraid to try and fail then forget
[13:58]it right? So that's amazing and very inspiring. So you know you liked writing. So this is now
[14:04]something you want to like keep doing and not just at one time experiment do you prefer different
[14:11]media like which is your favorite if you had to rank them just watching. Yeah I think that I am more
[14:19]naturally a director and I that is definitely my initial voice but in the past three and a half
[14:26]years since Donald Trump was elected to the presidency I realized he making movies takes years
[14:32]to make writing a script and getting a movie produced. I tend to work in an independent film takes
[14:36]a very long time. So I knew that I was not going to be able to do that in the Trump administration that
[14:41]I was again going to have to be working on a much faster pace and so all that to say is that I
[14:47]haven't made a feature film in a very long time but my heart is like pulling me back to that
[14:52]and I feel that that is kind of my natural zone is an artist but to have the ability to
[14:58]to experiment and other things it's really exciting to. So are you going to make this or use
[15:02]sanctuary going to become a movie? That's what we hope. Yeah so we're a process of
[15:07]crossing your fingers lots of things can happen but that's what we're trying to make happen right now.
[15:12]Amazing. Do you have any advice for people just starting out writers, creators, anybody who could use
[15:18]your encouragement because you tried and like how successful you've been? I would say
[15:25]a most importantly don't be afraid to create a bad shit bad art that's really important and
[15:29]until tell the story that is keeping you up at night tell the story that you can't ignore.
[15:36]Tell the story that maybe it's lived inside of you for decades and maybe it's just like got
[15:42]planted into your heart or just started whispering in your ear but tell that story because
[15:48]the road to creating art is a very difficult road it is not easy and everything in the world
[15:55]will conspire to make you stop but if you have this this story inside of you that you can't
[16:01]let go that you can't ignore you will be able to push away all the things that are telling
[16:07]you to not do it and get to the finish line and tell the story how you want to tell it. So be
[16:12]be very protective and specific with the stories that you invest in. And will you continue to be
[16:18]like an activist slash creator? Like would you see yourself as an activist? Yeah absolutely you know
[16:26]I all of my artwork is social in its story telling. I didn't want to label you an activist if you
[16:36]you don't identify that way. Yeah you know I definitely self-identify but I do as an activist but
[16:42]I absolutely identify first and foremost as an artist. I'm an artist first and an activist
[16:47]after my art. Awesome. Well this is great thank you and now we're going to try to Abby but thank you
[16:53]so much for coming on and testing and I'm sorry we can't I'll do this all three of us and I'm
[16:58]like a moron for not remembering that the gram couldn't be three ways but this is great too.
[17:02]No worries. Thank you thank you thank you so much for having me thank you and I just want to say
[17:07]that the book is available at all bookstores just can click on my link or my name up there and
[17:13]I'm the link is in my bio and please support women writers like next writers and please support
[17:19]immigration stories and go out and vote right now if you can because early voting is happening now
[17:25]I voted by. Good where do you live? What state do you live in? I live in New York but I got an absentee
[17:30]ballot because I wasn't sure if I would be in the city whatever. Right. So everyone can leave me
[17:34]alone. Wonderful. I'm so glad that didn't feel good to vote. It did I felt like a huge relief and
[17:40]I felt like I was happy to spend a month telling everybody that I already did it. Good wonderful thank
[17:46]you so much take care. Bye. Okay and now we're going to talk to her co-author Abby Sher and let me get
[17:54]her to join. Abby was also on my podcast for love you miss you hey to bye which was a fantastic
[18:02]like hi. How are you? I'm good how are you? Good where are you? I'm doing something scary just for
[18:12]you Debbie I'm doing this from soccer practice for my son. I'm sitting on a public bench which
[18:19]freaks me out but I thought walking around would be a little bit more disturbing so. Did you put
[18:26]like something down like I don't know these papers or something. It's just me you want to say
[18:32]yeah that's me. Okay it's going to be okay yeah it's going to be okay I'm just going to wash my
[18:37]butt really well tonight. Get your clothes put in the laundry this is so typical it's like
[18:44]mom said a century books here at soccer practice during your life you know. Let's hope no one
[18:49]gets hurt yeah I'm just going to keep one ear over there. Yeah well I just like to polish she's
[18:54]amazing and that was so fun and I didn't know her at all so that was great or I hadn't talked about.
[18:59]Tell me your side of collaborating with her and how it went on this book my name written all by
[19:04]yourself and now together what was it like? Yeah oh I have to say now that I've tasted the juice it's
[19:11]really fun to collaborate it really is. I do think of it as a very solitary writing as a very
[19:17]solitary sport and I think I've wined for the past 10 years like I just want to do this with someone
[19:25]and it was really dreamy because we as Paola said like I think we just gravitate towards different
[19:31]things I gravitate towards the character side of writing and sheet gravitates towards the plot
[19:36]and it's not like we set that out for each other but it really helped us because she had a vision
[19:43]of where these characters needed to go and then I would need to get in their brains and be like well
[19:48]why would they chew you know I was staying up at night going like well how do they why would they
[19:54]want to go into a desert and she was staying up at night plotting out how physically they would get
[19:59]out of the desert.
[20:00]or spoiler alert, they get out of the desert.
[20:02]But you know that, that's okay.
[20:06]I feel like you have this great skill
[20:08]of getting into the minds of, I guess, high schoolers,
[20:11]or I feel like your last book was all about helping a friend
[20:16]through a really difficult time
[20:17]and getting through that period of life.
[20:19]And now we have Bali who's getting through this
[20:22]and like doing with her brother
[20:23]and like eagerly sitting there while her mother,
[20:26]what's going on with her aunt
[20:28]and like all that anxiety you feel
[20:29]is like a pseudo adult, tell me about that, you know,
[20:33]so much music, Tori O'Connell just wrote
[20:36]you're a YA savant.
[20:38]That's perfect.
[20:40]Sorry, that's because I'm stuck at that age.
[20:43]I think I've been told by many a therapist,
[20:45]like are you sure that you're in your 40s
[20:47]because you act like a 15 year old?
[20:50]Yeah, I think the teenage mind is really,
[20:52]like I do think that I in many ways
[20:54]am emotionally stuck as a teenager.
[20:57]And I also think that they wear it all,
[20:59]like they have it all happening to them.
[21:03]They don't know how to hide it very well.
[21:07]I mean, they put on a good show,
[21:09]but they don't know how to hide their feelings very well
[21:12]and they don't know how to process them very well.
[21:14]So it gives me as a writer, a real treat
[21:19]to like try to process it with them.
[21:22]And I think we, you know, we have,
[21:24]we've been talking to some middle schools
[21:27]and high schools now, which has been really, really fun.
[21:29]So we're talking to students who are this age.
[21:32]And it's fascinating to see,
[21:36]like Valley doesn't want to be an activist.
[21:38]Valley doesn't want to be a revolutionary.
[21:40]She doesn't want to be in the limelight.
[21:42]She doesn't want, you know,
[21:43]she's not like someone who's even going to go try out
[21:45]for the spring play.
[21:47]She's a very thoughtful, a thoughtful teenager.
[21:51]She wants, you know, I mean,
[21:53]she's concerned about friends and like loss
[21:55]and like things that we all are concerned about.
[21:57]There's no part of her that's like,
[21:59]I'm going to change the world when we start the book.
[22:02]And she's forced into this role.
[22:04]And I think that's how a lot of us learn our skills,
[22:08]you know, is that we're forced into it.
[22:10]I didn't want the circumstances I was raised in.
[22:13]And she certainly does not want the circumstances
[22:16]she's raised in.
[22:17]And so it's fun seeing a class the other day be like,
[22:21]well, like how do you learn how to fend for yourself like that?
[22:25]Or how do you know that there are,
[22:28]they didn't know, you know, exactly what it meant
[22:30]to be undocumented.
[22:32]And Pell is really, really great at explaining it to any age.
[22:36]But it was really fun to see how a 16 year old process
[22:39]is that literally like right in front of you.
[22:42]Wow.
[22:43]So yeah.
[22:44]I mean, do you, Pell is saying she identifies first
[22:46]as an artist and that is an activist.
[22:48]Where are you on the activism scale?
[22:51]I think, well, I think she's changed me.
[22:53]So I didn't start this book thinking
[22:55]that I needed to be an activist.
[22:56]I thought like moms don't have time to read.
[22:59]Moms don't have time to get out and, you know, I'll march.
[23:03]I have my pussy hat.
[23:04]I will do all those things that I can.
[23:06]But at the end of the day, I also have soccer practice.
[23:09]Like I don't know how to do that without somebody
[23:12]really falling through the cracks.
[23:14]But Pell is definitely inspired me to take more action.
[23:17]And I've brought my kids to a lot of marches.
[23:20]They did family separation marches.
[23:23]And now I just don't even offer it as an option.
[23:27]I just say mom has to, you know, mom has to go canvassing.
[23:30]And if there is an argument, I guess it happens
[23:33]when I close the door.
[23:36]That's a really great parenting.
[23:38]Don't take this advice.
[23:41]I'm actually, I was thinking that I'm thinking, wow,
[23:42]this is impressive.
[23:43]And if I say like I'm going to the doctor's point,
[23:46]I'm just like, why can't you tell me where I can't
[23:49]you do this?
[23:49]I'm like, I don't know.
[23:50]I just can't.
[23:51]So, exactly.
[23:53]No, they definitely that there's, and, you know,
[23:56]and then the more that they learn,
[23:58]then the skierter they get right now.
[24:00]Like, well, why are you going to a protest?
[24:02]People, you know, can people shoot you at protests?
[24:05]Can you?
[24:06]It's a really, it's a crazy time to be alive.
[24:10]And it's a crazy time to be raising children
[24:14]and trying to explain what's going on.
[24:16]Wow.
[24:17]Are you one of these people who's asking everyone
[24:19]if they voted?
[24:20]Well, I will be honest.
[24:22]I have not voted yet.
[24:23]I have my ballot.
[24:24]I don't know exactly what I've been waiting for.
[24:26]I think I'm going to be so sad when I let it go.
[24:29]Like, I feel like it's my conscience, but I have to do it.
[24:32]Okay.
[24:34]Oh my God.
[24:34]Yeah, I've been phone banking.
[24:35]That's not fun.
[24:36]I hate phone banking.
[24:38]Wow.
[24:38]I know that Paula said she wanted to work on another
[24:41]book with you, and that's really awesome.
[24:42]Are you also doing stuff on the side just yourself?
[24:45]Like, for your own writing?
[24:47]Are you waiting to do another one with her?
[24:48]It's sort of, I mean, I'm always noodling on something.
[24:51]So I've been playing with these characters for a long time.
[24:55]It's an adult book, I hope.
[24:57]Although I always say that and then it winds up being a YA book.
[25:00]So I'm trying to, I'm trying to take it
[25:02]from the perspective of the mom for voting.
[25:06]And I've been, I've been working with Rebel Girls,
[25:08]which is a really fun company that started
[25:11]good night stories for Rebel Girls.
[25:13]And I love the spirit of that whole team.
[25:16]They just had a virtual rally this weekend,
[25:20]which was really fun and girls from all, I mean,
[25:22]people from all over the world joined in,
[25:25]and it was led by girls who are, you know, young activists.
[25:29]And so I'm, yeah, I'm dipping into things,
[25:32]but my goal is definitely to write the next book of Paula
[25:36]and see what happens of these movie talks and things like that.
[25:41]That's exciting.
[25:42]Well, it's really good to see you again.
[25:46]I know, we talked like right before this all happened,
[25:49]right before the lockdown.
[25:51]You're like one of my last in person,
[25:53]if you like interviews and I don't know.
[25:55]It was my other life, another life.
[25:57]No, no screens, got to know a lot of people.
[26:00]So anyway, we'll be in rats on this book
[26:04]and it's saying, yeah, we'll stay in touch.
[26:07]Okay, okay, okay.
[26:09]I have a big, big, big, big, okay.
[26:11]Bye.
[26:12]Bye.
[26:13]Thanks so much to today's sponsor,
[26:15]my bookshop.org and my Amazon influencer store.
[26:19]You can check out my Amazon store at amazon.com
[26:22]slash shop slash moms.
[26:24]Don't have time to read books.
[26:26]And my bookshop.org store,
[26:28]which is bookshop.org slash shop slash zibi Owens.
[26:34]And I hope that you will find every book
[26:36]that you are looking for.
[26:38]Thanks, thanks for listening to this episode
[26:40]of moms don't have time to read books.
[26:42]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[26:45]and at moms don't have time to read books.
[26:47]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[26:50]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:51]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:54]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[26:57]for the sound editing.
[26:58]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:00]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.