Dr. Reshma Shah, NOURISH
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[1:52]Dr. Reshma Shah is a board certified pediatrician and affiliate clinical instructor at
[1:57]Stanford University School of Medicine. She teaches nutrition to pediatric residents,
[2:01]speaks to parent audiences and is one teaching awards at Stanford and at Rainbow
[2:06]Babies and Children's Hospital in Ohio. Reshma currently cares for patients at Santa Clara
[2:10]Valley Medical Center and has additional training and certification and plant-based nutrition and
[2:15]cooking. She has been a featured guest on the plant trainer's podcast and has written for
[2:19]Forks Over Knives. She is the co-author of Nourish, the definitive plant-based nutrition guide for
[2:25]families, which offers practical solutions the parents have been waiting for when it comes to
[2:29]deciding what and how to feed their families. Welcome, Reshma. Thank you so much for coming on
[2:34]mom's don't have time to read books. Thank you so much for having me.
[2:37]So Nourish, your book, the definitive plant-based nutrition guide for families.
[2:42]So you open up this book and say why should there be another book? Don't we know everything
[2:46]about nutrition? So what is your big answer to this question? Why take all the time for this
[2:52]plant-based nutritional sort of handbook of sorts? Tell me about it. Yeah, so I think that we're at a
[2:58]really interesting time right now. People are really becoming open and so much more aware of the
[3:05]issues that face us as a community in terms of everything that's been happening with COVID and
[3:11]with all the social justice movements. And I think that people are really willing to look at the
[3:16]impact of their food choices. And the reason that we wrote this book is because it's not a call
[3:21]for everyone to be vegan or for everyone to be perfect or for everyone to eat a perfectly
[3:25]clean diet, whatever that means. But I think it's just really an invitation to look at our food
[3:31]choices and what the consequences of those might be. And the reason that we focus on a plant-centered
[3:37]plant-based approach to feeding our families is because research overwhelmingly supports a
[3:42]plant-centered diet as a foundation for promoting health. And then when you look at the added
[3:46]benefits, the first section of the book is all about the big why. When you look at the added
[3:50]benefits of the impact that our food choices have on our environment and climate change and
[3:56]you know what we do with factory farming. In our opinion, I co-wrote the book with Brenda Davis
[4:00]who's a phenomenal plant-based dietitian, in our opinion, a plant-based approach to feeding our
[4:05]sort of checks out all the boxes. So it supports our health and the health of our family and our
[4:10]communities. It supports the health of our planet. And we think of it as a radical act of compassion
[4:16]when you think about the suffering that we inflict upon factory farming animals. And so
[4:20]whatever we can do to sort of address those issues is a win. So yes, there have been a lot of
[4:27]books on nutrition. And I think our perspective is really focused on families. It's focused on all
[4:32]these larger issues, but it's very much intimately connected to our dinner tables because it has
[4:37]to be practical, reasonable, and doable because I've got two kids. I know what it's like to have
[4:41]a busy household. So it can't be just sort of an academic discussion. So how old are your kids?
[4:49]So I've got a 15-year-old and 18-year-old actually soon to be 16. It's hard to believe how they grow.
[4:53]Oh my gosh. And how did you convince them to adopt this? And have they adopted this? Like,
[4:59]have it has it been from day one? And how did you do it?
[5:02]Yeah. So it's kind of been a full circle experience for me. I'm Indian and I grew up in a
[5:06]vegetarian household. So I grew up eating lots of like lentils and beans and all these things.
[5:11]But you know, I was a typical American kid. So I definitely ate my share of like hot dogs and
[5:15]hamburgers and all those things. And all through medical school and residency training, I actually
[5:19]didn't really connect health and nutrition very much because I'm sure many people come relate
[5:26]to this. Doctors don't get a lot of training when it comes to nutrition. And so when I had
[5:30]kids of my own, that's when I really became interested in nutrition and the role at Clayton
[5:34]our health because all of a sudden I was responsible for these two young beings. And I wanted
[5:40]to make well-informed food choices. And so the more I started sort of learning about what sort of
[5:44]dietary approach is support health, I kept coming back to this sort of plant-centered,
[5:49]plant-focused idea. And one of the reasons I felt like I was very qualified to write this book is
[5:54]because I've made all the mistakes. I was a short order cook. I did all the things at the
[5:58]dinner table that we asked parents not to do. And my family in the beginning, I was super aggressive
[6:04]and it didn't really work very well because when you try and force things on people that you
[6:09]love and care about, they don't really enjoy that so much. And my family was keen on letting me know.
[6:14]So there was a period where I was like super forceful. And when I realized that it wasn't working,
[6:19]I kind of backed off. And the single best thing I did to get my family on board was to,
[6:25]I just kept cooking really good food. I didn't really focus on talking to them about this is good
[6:29]for you. You should eat it or this is good for our environment. I just over and over again
[6:35]kept cooking good meals. And gradually they sort of came on board. My daughter, who's 18,
[6:40]she was like vegetarian before any of us were. And so she was fully on board very quickly.
[6:45]My son and my husband came along much more slowly. But now I would say our household is like 95
[6:51]percent my base vegan. So in the house, that's kind of how I cooked. And then when we're out and
[6:56]if they want, you know, a pizza or an ice cream or something, I don't sweat too much about it.
[7:00]Wow. And so you're obviously a really good cook. I mean, did you, the recipes that are in the
[7:06]back are these your own like where do these come from? And which one would you recommend?
[7:11]Like if I'm going to try to convince my kids to give away their chicken nuggets. Like I'm feeling
[7:16]like, I don't know, are they going to go for lemony chickpea pasta with mushrooms and broccoli? Like
[7:20]my kids are not, I don't know. My kids are going to do that. The last is to eat energy balls. Like
[7:25]I would, I would do it. But one of the things I always say is that this is like a guidebook and
[7:30]we're providing you with the resources. But you are the expert of your family and your children.
[7:35]So you're going to know what they like best. The recipes are mine and my co-authors. And you know,
[7:40]I think we have a slightly different approaches. She's a grandmother and her kids are out of the
[7:44]house. And so the way she cooks is going to be slightly different than what I cook because
[7:48]I've got two teenagers who are athletes. And so I, you know, our approach is going to be slightly
[7:53]different. I think know your kid. One of the things I recommend is start with the things that you
[7:58]think are going to be easy and approachable for your kids. Don't start with the hardest things first.
[8:02]So if you've got kids that are really into chicken nuggets and that's a thing, you could try
[8:06]a tofu nugget. But if you've got kids that are skeptical of tofu and it seems sort of strange,
[8:11]you might start with some of the veggie meats that might be a little bit more approachable.
[8:15]I also think that kids require repeated exposure. So even if they don't like it today,
[8:20]it doesn't mean they won't like it tomorrow. And the more that we can use an approach and inviting
[8:24]them, including them, instead of sort of forcing up on them, I think the easier it goes. And for
[8:29]kids that are really, really picky and might just be instead of trying to take things away that
[8:34]you're just adding things in. So serve whatever you normally serve. And then maybe you'll have
[8:39]a huge kale salad or maybe the lemony chippy pasta as a side just so that they don't feel like
[8:46]you're forcing this on them. I know. I feel like we do that. And then, you know, my husband is actually
[8:50]they cook in our family. I don't, I mean, I can cook, but I have to like follow recipes. And then
[8:54]if I deviate something goes wrong, but it takes, you know, he's like, you know, he'll just throw
[8:59]things together and taste great. But I feel like sometimes he'll make, he'll spend all this time making
[9:03]it. And then none of the kids touch it. So he's like, why bother? Like he doesn't, why is he
[9:07]gonna make the same thing again the next night? And I'm like, fine, just give him whatever, you know,
[9:12]well, because you spent a lot of time, you spent a lot of energy. And you know, you don't want
[9:16]the food to go to waste. One of the things that I did early on that helped us at the dinner table
[9:21]tremendously is the semi shopping days usually Sunday. That's when I go to a market. That's one of
[9:25]the most. So I menu planning. And before I would sort of do all that work, I would ask them,
[9:29]what are your wishes for the week? So I would get them involved in the menu planning. And if they
[9:34]said, Oh, I don't really care. I don't have any wishes. The rule in our house is, is that I will
[9:40]try to honor your wishes. But once we're at the dinner table, you're not allowed to complain about
[9:43]the food. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I spent a lot of time making it. And the other thing is, I think
[9:49]always try to have something at the table that you know your child is going to like. So if you're
[9:53]trying like a new vegetable, maybe pair it with their favorite pasta so that there's always
[9:57]something that they're going to enjoy at the table. Because.
[10:00]That's not the time that you want to be sort of arguing, bickering. I think the average American
[10:04]family spends 17 minutes at the dinner table and make those 17 minutes count. That's a time
[10:10]for connection and join one of those company. It's not the time to be pat sort of battling about
[10:15]food. I feel like 17 might be generous. I don't know if we make it 17 minutes. I mean, that's the average
[10:22]time, right? So that's the average time. So tell me, take me back a little to you
[10:30]and your career up till this point and you're becoming a doctor and where you chose to specialize
[10:35]in how I heard how you this became another interest. But where did you start out?
[10:41]So it's kind of like a windy sort of path for me, I think a little bit. So I actually kind of early
[10:46]on you, I wanted to go to medical school. And I can't tell how much of that is I definitely wanted to
[10:51]be in sort of a helping profession. But I think growing up in an Indian community, becoming a doctor
[10:55]was definitely like the path to success. So I think that was kind of ingrained in me. And after
[11:01]medical school, I actually started out in obstetrics and gynecology. I did a year training in that
[11:05]and decided very quickly. It didn't feel like the right fit. And for me, when I don't know what to do
[11:10]in life, I always go back to school. So I went back to school and got my masters in public health
[11:15]and then made a shift in pediatrics. And it definitely felt like a much better fit for me. And so
[11:20]for quite a long time, I'd say for the first 15 years, I did general pediatrics. I worked
[11:25]in the emergency room. I had my own patients. And I've worked with residents and students at
[11:30]case Western and Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital on Cleveland. And then we moved to California
[11:34]about seven years ago. And I decided I wanted to make a little bit of shift. I had done primary care
[11:39]for a long time. And I've been working in the urgent care. It's a large medical facility that's
[11:45]this Stanford residents and medical students rotate through. So I've been doing some teaching.
[11:49]And really for the last six months or so with COVID, I think life has been so different. I've been
[11:54]focusing on just finishing up the manuscript and getting the book out. And for me, I think like
[11:59]I really enjoyed teaching and working with the residents and students, but writing has become a
[12:03]passion. I didn't even know I had. Wow. How did you learn how to write? I don't. I mean, I don't
[12:08]really know how to write. I never thought of myself as a writer, but I think that the core of writing
[12:14]is really teaching. And I think teaching is something that I've always done in some capacity,
[12:19]whether it's working with medical students or residents. I've had the fortune of doing some
[12:24]talks at Stanford. And so I think at the core of writing is really teaching, right? There's something
[12:29]that you feel you want to convey to people that can help them in their daily lives. And so
[12:34]that's been sort of a long passion of mine. And it just sort of overflowed in writing. And
[12:38]I was really lucky to have a writing partner because I co-wrote this book. So there was a lot of
[12:42]collaboration and, you know, sharing of drafts and back and forth and things like that. So
[12:47]amazing. How did you do that? I always wonder how collaborators collaborate, like, what system did
[12:53]you use and how did you assign the workload and everything? So it's a really interesting story. My
[12:58]co-author, Brenda Davis, this is actually her 12th book. So she's written many, many books before.
[13:03]And when we decided to write this book together, I really drafted out the outline of it.
[13:09]And we had certain sections that we were each going to work on. So the first section is mine,
[13:14]the second section is hers, the third is mine. And then the fourth was a combination. And so
[13:18]the way that we did it is I, you know, we would write a chapter at a time. I would send it to her.
[13:23]She would give me her feedback. And it just kind of kept going back and forth like that
[13:26]until we had it the way we wanted. And it was, it was really wonderful because I think we each
[13:31]have our own strengths instead of experiences. So it was a really beautiful marriage of both of our
[13:37]backgrounds, our experiences. But we also had a very similar work ethic. So I think it's
[13:42]a writing partner is kind of like a marriage. You don't exactly know what the relationship's
[13:45]going to be like. But it ended up being a beautiful collaboration. And she has become a true
[13:51]friend through the whole process. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So put your pediatrician hat back on, if you
[13:57]will. And pretend you're talking to kids, like my kids, my friends kids, about about the
[14:05]advantages of a plant-based diet for their health, not the environment and not about the animals,
[14:10]both I think are easy for me to explain, and which they would get pretty simply. But in terms of
[14:15]what it actually does for you, why should they give up these other things that they've come to
[14:19]like? What are the benefits? Yeah. And I think when we have these conversations with our children,
[14:23]I think it's really important to be careful and tender because you don't want to be alarming. And
[14:28]I think, you know, especially in pediatrics, this whole conversation around pediatric obesity has
[14:33]become, I feel like it's like present in every exam room and every conversation. And at the end of
[14:39]the day, I always try to focus on health and healthy habits instead of things like weight, because
[14:45]that can be a really tricky conversation. So one of the things I would say is for kids, when you look
[14:49]at the longest live populations in the world. So there are these areas called the blue zones. And
[14:53]the blue zones are these geographical pockets throughout the world where they have the highest
[14:57]concentration of centenarians. So people that are living to age 100 and beyond in fairly good health,
[15:02]like they're still working in their garden, they're still part of their communities. All of these
[15:06]communities follow plant-centered diets as a foundation for their diet. So following a plant-based
[15:11]diet can help you to reduce your risk of developing a lot of chronic diseases like heart disease,
[15:16]type two diabetes, certain cancers, even neurocognitive diseases like Alzheimer's and things like that.
[15:22]So I think with kids, though, those long-term effects can feel so far away. But kids who we plant-based
[15:28]diets tend to have higher overall nutritional quality. They tend to consume definitely way more
[15:33]because plant foods are full of fiber and animal foods contain no fiber. Also, a lot of protective
[15:37]phytonutrients and it gives them all the energy. And I think it gives them all the energy, the nutrients
[15:45]and appropriately plant-based diets are safe for children during all stages of life cycle.
[15:50]In terms of specific benefits, there have been fewer studies on our children than they have adults.
[15:55]So I couldn't say for instance, some of the health outcomes that we measure in adults in terms of
[15:59]hypertension and diabetes. We just don't see those as often in kids. But one of the culprits in kids
[16:05]health that we've seen a lot is dairy. So dairy has been linked to increased incidence of
[16:10]colic in babies, constipation in children for sure, acne and a whole host of other conditions from
[16:15]eczema and asthma and other atopic illnesses as well. So dairy is definitely something to consider.
[16:20]The way I approach it with children is I never say you have to sort of eliminate these things.
[16:24]But let's say for instance, your child has a lot of acne or has been really suffering with
[16:28]eczema or asthma. One approach could be let's see, let's see how things go if we just eliminated
[16:33]for two weeks. Like we don't have to do it forever, let's just try for two weeks. And sometimes if
[16:37]they see enough of an improvement in their constipation or their asthma or their allergies,
[16:41]they will likely say, oh yeah, that's there's so many alternatives. I will gladly forego the dairy.
[16:46]So I don't know if that answers. Totally looking for this kid. Yeah, that's great. I feel like
[16:51]when I was little, I didn't quite realize that by shifting sort of all the different levers of
[16:56]what pieces of nutrition, I could adjust some of the things with my own body and my own
[17:01]health where I feel like now the focus is so much more like in the weeds, right? Not really weeds
[17:07]obviously, but like I could eat more avocado and I could eat more, you know, omega threes and salmon
[17:12]and that will help my brain. And this might help my hair and I don't know. I just feel like it's
[17:17]important to convey all that. Like there are these little magic ingredients in every food and
[17:22]maybe somehow making it seem like, I don't know, like a treasure hunt for what your body needs or
[17:27]I don't know, something like that. I think kids are definitely fascinated by that. And if you
[17:32]have a child that's really inquisitive and really curious, I think those conversations can be a
[17:36]lot of fun. I think you just have to be careful, because for some kids it can cause more anxiety
[17:41]around food. And our whole goal as parents is to make it a joyful, inviting experience.
[17:48]And sometimes overcomplicating the message for children can create anxiety. I think that
[17:52]you just have to know your kid. And if your kid is really interested in these conversations,
[17:57]then go deep as deeply as they want to go. But the main focus should be on including a variety of
[18:04]foods, you know, eat the rainbow in terms of fruits and vegetables, make sure that the food is
[18:09]really satisfying and tasty because anyone can do something for a week. But if you're in it for the
[18:14]long haul, it has to be enjoyable, I think, for kids and families. And for adults too.
[18:19]Totally. Yes. So now that you've tapped into your love of writing as a form of teaching,
[18:27]what are you going to write about next? I have no idea. I know sometimes as a first time writer,
[18:32]I'm sure you've experienced this with other conversations you've had. You know, you begin to wonder
[18:37]like this might be the only thing I actually have to say. So I haven't really let this book fully,
[18:42]like percolight. And we'll see. I would love to do more writing and whether it's sort of as a book
[18:47]or even in other formats. I think it's a really wonderful way to be able to sort of
[18:52]to teach. I think it's a really, it's a really powerful teaching method. And this book has been,
[18:58]it really, I mean, it was two years in the making in terms of all the research. It's very
[19:01]evidence-based. We have tons of references at the end. So I don't exactly know what I would want
[19:06]to write next, but I would love to continue to write. Maybe you should do a children's book,
[19:10]version of it. That's actually a wonderful idea you could do because I've even like all the
[19:15]colors on your cover. I'm looking like this would be like, you know, if you had like it illustrated
[19:19]and you still called it nourish and maybe this, I don't know, maybe you have to find this leaf on
[19:24]every page or you know, make it like a little bit. I don't know. Actually a fantastic idea. I've
[19:28]never even thought about it. There you go. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[19:36]I would say for me having like a vision of what I wanted this book to be really helped. Our
[19:42]publisher was very open to a lot of ideas. Like for instance, the cover of the book that they proposed,
[19:48]it just didn't fit my vision. And so I was fairly aggressive in saying, I don't think this will
[19:54]work. And I had to think outside the box. So I found my own photographer. I sort of, you know,
[20:00]So this is what I imagine.
[20:02]Do you think you can do this?
[20:03]And once I sort of presented the full photograph
[20:06]and everything to the publisher,
[20:07]they're like, oh yes, this is beautiful, this works.
[20:09]So I think having a vision of what you want the book to be
[20:13]and just being persistent, but also collaborative.
[20:16]Totally great strategies.
[20:18]Awesome. Well, I love whatever you did.
[20:19]I'm like, I find this photo just,
[20:21]I know I'm being ridiculous, but you should like sell prints
[20:24]of just the photo, or you could like personalize,
[20:26]I don't know.
[20:27]It's such a no, it's just a great share.
[20:29]I can share with you what the original cover was.
[20:31]And you'll see that right.
[20:33]Yeah, I'll send you a copy of the original cover.
[20:34]And you know, it was, I think that again,
[20:37]it goes back to having a vision of what you wanted the book to be.
[20:40]And for me, more than anything,
[20:43]I wanted this book to be an invitation for families.
[20:46]Like not, this is how you must do it.
[20:47]It's not meant to be prescriptive.
[20:49]It's really meant to be an invitation.
[20:50]And I wanted the cover to reflect that of it.
[20:53]It's very inviting.
[20:54]Oh, congratulations, congrats on this book.
[20:57]And thanks for trying to help so many people live
[21:00]healthier, better lives.
[21:01]And the planet as a whole, I mean,
[21:03]that's really, it's a big mission that you've taken on.
[21:06]And it's great.
[21:06]So thank you.
[21:07]Thank you.
[21:08]And thank you for the idea for the children's book.
[21:10]Like now my brain is buzzing with all kinds of thoughts.
[21:13]So it's such a pleasure chatting with you.
[21:14]And yeah, maybe you all be back on once the children's book
[21:17]is done.
[21:18]I would love it.
[21:20]All right, take care.
[21:21]Have a great day.
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