Michelle Buteau, SURVIVAL OF THE THICKEST
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[2:33]Michelle Bhutto is the author of Survival of the Thickest.
[2:37]She is known as an actress for scenes dealing roles in the circle, always be my baby,
[2:42]first wives club, someone great, Russian doll, and tales of the city.
[2:46]She has also co-hosted two podcasts, Late Night Whenever,
[2:50]and adulting with Jordan Carlos, and recently recorded her one hour Netflix stand-up special
[2:55]to be released later this year.
[2:57]In her collection of essays, she reflects on growing up Caribbean, Catholic, and thick
[3:02]in New Jersey, going to college in Miami, her many friendships and dating disasters,
[3:06]working as a news competitor during 9-11, getting started in stand-up, opening for male strippers,
[3:12]burying into her husband's Dutch family, IVS and surrogacy, motherhood, chosen family,
[3:17]and what it feels like to have a full heart, tight jeans, and stardom finally in her grasp.
[3:22]Welcome, Michelle.
[3:23]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books,
[3:26]to discuss survival of the thickest.
[3:28]I'm so excited to be talking to you.
[3:30]I'm excited to be top two.
[3:35]Oh my gosh, for people who aren't familiar with your work,
[3:39]could you give us a little background on why you wrote this book and what it's essentially about?
[3:47]What about a question?
[3:50]I've been doing stand-up damn near 20 years, I know I age really well.
[3:54]And so, you know, I've sort of made the jump into acting and hosting and TV and film and
[4:00]all those really fun stuff.
[4:01]But, you know, my true love is stand-up and I've been doing a lot of podcasts and storytelling
[4:06]shows and I realized, wow, there's other things I could share with people besides these funny
[4:12]ha-ha sassy girl moments.
[4:13]And so, especially after going through a five-year battle of IVF to try and have children,
[4:20]you know, it was really hard being the happy clown with big titties and freckles.
[4:23]And so, as I quietly was going through these really painful experiences,
[4:28]I was also out and about, you know, probably working the most I've ever worked.
[4:36]And so now that I feel like I am healed and on the other side of the mountain,
[4:42]I can look back at my experiences and my pain and my grief and properly write about it and share it
[4:48]because I'm realizing, you know, it's not about me, it's not about like how long can I talk about
[4:55]myself, you know, I'm not like some like reality show, no shade to reality show, hoes, LOL.
[5:01]But I feel like the more I share it, like the more people feel less alone or just simply educated.
[5:09]Or, you know, there's a lot of like that would never happen to me than it does.
[5:12]And so, I was like, wow, what happens?
[5:15]What would happen if I actually wrote a book?
[5:19]And so, I did and it was wild.
[5:22]And it's so, I never want to read a write a book again.
[5:25]It is so much work.
[5:26]And especially, you know, I just remember taking care of teeth and twins
[5:30]who were about 10 months old, still having the same room didn't separate them yet,
[5:34]didn't even realize that was a thing I could do.
[5:37]And then I would go to set to work on a movie called Mary Me with JLo and just being
[5:43]all of like, oh, and Wilson is there.
[5:45]So, I'm gonna be like, this is crazy.
[5:47]And then go to my trailer and try to get like an essay done.
[5:49]And I'm just like, what is this life?
[5:51]And then go home and, you know, go to the store to pick a baby tie-in on, just like keep it moving.
[5:56]And, you know, write this book when I like to left, would fall asleep.
[6:01]And then I remember one that I even realized I had like shit stuck in my nail and I'm like,
[6:04]God, that's always, why is this meant like checking my, like checking under my shoes so dumb.
[6:11]Anyways, I don't even remember the question, but thank you so much for having me.
[6:16]I also have, I have twins, by the way, who are now 13.
[6:20]Yes, it's true.
[6:20]Oh, I can't waste.
[6:22]Well, I mean, pros and cons of every age.
[6:27]But I also did not realize that I should separate my twins and I kept them in the same room
[6:31]for a really long time.
[6:33]And then I finally, once they were like napping in beds, essentially, I was like, oh, okay,
[6:38]maybe I should split them up.
[6:40]So anyway, one of these million, as long as you go, are they a boy girl or who are they?
[6:46]They're a boy girl, they're 13.
[6:48]Boy was first by a couple minutes and Lord said over her head constantly.
[6:53]But yeah, I, you know, in reading and seeing your Instagram and all of this, like taking me
[6:57]back to the very beginning and it does get easier in some ways.
[7:01]A lot less physically demanding at least.
[7:03]So, um, right.
[7:04]Yeah.
[7:05]Yeah.
[7:06]I do feel like that I love Lucy episode where I'm just trying to keep all the chocolate
[7:09]on the conveyor belt.
[7:10]I'm just like, good diapers, but yeah, I am looking forward to.
[7:15]I want to say I'm looking forward to them talking, but from what I hear talking is good,
[7:21]talking is good, walking is good.
[7:23]There's a lot of great things coming out of it.
[7:26]I feel like by the time you're here, it's more like psychological warfare that we have going on.
[7:30]But, you know, but yes, being a twin mom, you know, people would be like, oh, but my kids are
[7:34]really close in age.
[7:35]So I get it.
[7:36]And I'm like, no, you don't.
[7:37]Sorry.
[7:39]Just a little different.
[7:40]I put her in twins.
[7:41]I wish ones, yes, yes, yes, different.
[7:44]Anyway, okay, go back to the IVF part and the pain and having to sort of mask the pain
[7:49]and keep on keeping on because this is something I find so fascinating.
[7:53]How do you keep all of that emotion inside and just like come out of the trailer as you
[7:59]were saying or come out, you know, head to work when all of that stuff is brewing inside?
[8:03]Did you always talk to your colleagues about it?
[8:06]Like, how did you process it?
[8:08]Did you rave like personal journals?
[8:10]Like, how did you get through that period of time?
[8:12]That's a good question.
[8:13]Now that you are talking about it, maybe I should have,
[8:17]journaled, maybe I should have talked to more people.
[8:19]I felt like I couldn't though because no one knew what I was going through.
[8:23]So they're like, what do you mean hormones?
[8:25]What do you mean shots?
[8:26]What do you mean, that doesn't sound right?
[8:27]Like, they would get defensive.
[8:29]Why are you doing that?
[8:29]Or just like, well, you know what you should do is just eat clean or maybe you lose weight
[8:33]or maybe you don't work as much.
[8:35]And so I felt sort of attacked and shamed from people that I love,
[8:41]who just simply didn't know or understand.
[8:44]And so it kind of felt like I was just in a marathon of an emotional cardio wind tunnel
[8:53]where I'm just like, get the fuck through.
[8:55]Get the fuck through.
[8:56]You will be a mom.
[8:57]This will happen.
[8:57]Get through like after the first miscarriage.
[8:59]I was like, heartbroken.
[9:01]But I'm like, let's go again.
[9:02]And I realized that was normal from my other friends who are talking to me about their
[9:06]miscarriages.
[9:06]And then by the third one, you're just like, okay, let's just wait a second.
[9:10]Let's just take a beat and like really figure out what's going on
[9:13]because maybe it's something other than, you know, nature takes care of itself type situation.
[9:19]And so, you know, I think because I was so busy and had such a huge to-do list work-wise,
[9:25]I was able to sort of compartmentalize what all that was going on.
[9:30]I'm like, okay, I'm going to LA to pitch the show.
[9:33]I just wrote.
[9:34]They're interested in it.
[9:35]So I yourself out, get a doctor's note.
[9:37]Get the needles.
[9:38]Get the disc.
[9:38]Get the progesterone, fuck us up as a toys.
[9:40]Get- and it became like my life and my to-do list.
[9:43]And then I would cry over like the weirdest things.
[9:45]Like, you know, somebody would cut me off on the road.
[9:49]Or, you know, my Uber driver didn't feel comfortable with me putting my window down.
[9:54]And I would just like cry.
[9:56]Or my husband would like leave crumbs from a sandwich on the-
[10:00]countertop and I'd be like, I want to divorce and I'm like, oh, or maybe it's the hormones.
[10:06]And so it was crazy.
[10:08]And then as I started working more, you know, I started giving zero fucks.
[10:14]And that's when I really started to book when people were like, wow, she's so edgy.
[10:17]And I'm just like, no, I'm broken, but I will definitely wear the statement lip.
[10:22]And so when I would like improv a scene, it would be ridiculous and then I would just
[10:26]start crying, even though I'm just like, you guys suck as dick.
[10:31]I'd be saying the most dumb things, but crying because I didn't know how to manage
[10:36]all that was going on, but it really kind of like really resonated with people.
[10:41]They were like, ah, man, that, like even my first wife's club audition, which was over Skype
[10:47]because Tracy Oliver, the creator and producer was in LA and I was in New York.
[10:52]And she was like, look, you know, your husband who, you know, in his college has cheated
[10:57]on you finally.
[10:58]And you know, you've, you've, are coming to terms with it now, but you guys are going
[11:02]to therapy.
[11:03]You feel broken.
[11:04]And you're trying to put yourself together every day for your two kids.
[11:07]And I'm just like, oh my God, that's all she needs to say.
[11:10]And then like, waterworks, she's like, phenomenal acting.
[11:12]I'm just like, I gotta go to the bathroom.
[11:15]And so on and so forth.
[11:16]So to be honest, I don't know how I manage, you know, in life, anyways, I'm like, day
[11:22]by day.
[11:23]And now, you know, with totalling twins, they're in quarantine, and still working.
[11:26]I'm like, hour by hour, yes, that's all you can do.
[11:32]Go back to what you said about being edgy versus being broken.
[11:37]Tell me more about that.
[11:38]How do you know which one you are?
[11:39]How do you, what causes what?
[11:41]Tell me about them.
[11:42]I mean, I guess again, it's a case by case basis, but you know, everyone has their opinion
[11:49]of you and like, and you know, you could walk in a room and feel ugly, but people see
[11:54]a confident person.
[11:56]And you never know what you're giving off or what people see, right?
[11:58]And so people were like, well, I can't believe you said that.
[12:01]And I'm like, yeah, because I don't care if you like me or not.
[12:05]You know, I just don't care if you like me or not.
[12:09]I know that I'm actually better than this and this project and this material.
[12:14]And so it did help me in a way where I'm just like, I just want to go home and cry right
[12:20]now.
[12:21]So let's just get the shit over with.
[12:22]But I was also so happy to have things to go to because that sort of like gave me a sense
[12:28]of normalcy like life is still going on.
[12:31]Like if I didn't have anywhere to go, I don't even know what I would be like.
[12:36]And it also gave me a sense of damn bitch, you can get stuff done, which is probably
[12:41]why I decided to write a book.
[12:43]I don't do it.
[12:46]So stupid.
[12:47]I mean, a lot of the book, though, goes all the way back.
[12:50]Like you take us all through your life and being raised by your parents and your friend
[12:54]and like all the little things that happen to sort of make you you and you go into that
[12:59]in a lot of depth.
[13:01]And so I don't want to like mislead that the book is all about IVF or anything like that.
[13:04]And you have a lot also about your body in this book and your relationship to your
[13:08]body and your family's relationship.
[13:11]There was this one passage I wanted to read with your dad.
[13:14]You said there was this one time and when I was about 15 and my father said to me,
[13:18]stop eating pasta and friend of your boyfriend and usually it's 20 pounds because then
[13:21]you'd be so beautiful.
[13:23]I stopped right there.
[13:24]I told him off.
[13:25]I said, I'm beautiful no matter what 20 pounds are not.
[13:28]And if someone is going to love me, they are going to love me for me.
[13:31]look changed immediately and he said, that's my girl, isn't there a better way?
[13:37]Do we have to be G.I.J. right now at the dinner table dad is too much?
[13:42]Oh my gosh.
[13:44]So how did you how do you feel about you know, you're you're very open about your relationship
[13:50]with your body?
[13:51]Tell me how you feel about it now, especially after having twins.
[13:54]Well, I didn't have twins, right?
[13:56]So I had a surrogate and for me, I was like, how am I going to feel taking care of these
[14:03]babies if I didn't carry them?
[14:07]And that lasted for like five minutes because I'm just like, oh no, they are mine and I am
[14:11]theirs.
[14:12]And she is a part of our village and extended family chosen family, which is amazing.
[14:18]And so sorry, I totally knew that and I remember reading all that and I don't know
[14:22]why I said that.
[14:23]So I apologize, but I didn't know.
[14:25]No, that's okay.
[14:26]No, that's okay.
[14:27]And no, I still feel like a warrior princess because I went through five years of fucking
[14:31]crazy rigid hormone taking, you know, spreading your legs three times a week to get tested
[14:38]blood three times a week.
[14:40]Like I feel like I've done it all so, but you know, to get back to what you were saying,
[14:45]I mean, I did get away during IVDF and I was so used to it by then fluctuating because
[14:52]I have been since I was 11 that I'm like, you know, it is what it is.
[14:57]And I'll do what I can.
[14:58]I didn't get that overnight.
[15:00]You know, I developed quite quickly and you know, I talk about, you know, wanting a banana
[15:06]seat bike for my birthday, my 12th birthday and I ended up with like woman size tits.
[15:11]And to get unwanted attention from older men is gross and to be shamed by older women is
[15:18]also, you know, really disgusting.
[15:20]I feel like we have to help kids kind of shape who they are in a positive way and that
[15:26]our bodies are all different and that there isn't one way to look or be.
[15:30]And that's okay.
[15:31]And also how to speak up for themselves.
[15:32]Like yes, definitely respects your elders, say please and thank you, but you don't have
[15:37]to take people's criticism.
[15:40]That's wild.
[15:42]And I think that was the hardest part actually, right?
[15:45]And the book was trying not to make it sound like I was mad at my parents, you know, because
[15:54]there was a lot of shame from them to not stick out my chest, but I'm like, I'm standing
[15:59]up straight.
[16:00]You told me to stand up straight my whole life or why are you wearing that?
[16:02]I'm still wearing the same thing I've always worn.
[16:04]It's just, this is how my body is.
[16:06]By the way, every woman in my family looks like this.
[16:08]Like why all of a sudden is it a thing?
[16:11]And so, you know, for me, well, it definitely is survival of the thickest in terms of like
[16:16]having a thick body, but also not shaming people for who they are or what they want in life.
[16:23]That is like I hope a takeaway, whether it's wanting to be with multiple partners to
[16:29]figure out, you know, like their Julia Roberts and like Run Away Bride, how they like
[16:34]their eggs, you know?
[16:36]I refer to that scene all the time, all the time, like I'm so glad you said that.
[16:43]I think about that all the time.
[16:45]I mentioned it to people.
[16:46]Yeah.
[16:47]Yes.
[16:48]So true.
[16:49]Thank you.
[16:50]Nobody ever understands.
[16:51]I'm just like, what?
[16:52]No.
[16:53]It's like one of my favorites.
[16:54]Thank you.
[16:55]And I just feel like like where they now like her and is it Richard, what's this name
[16:59]again with the gray hair?
[17:00]Yeah.
[17:01]Richard Gear?
[17:02]No.
[17:03]Oh my God.
[17:04]I was going to say Richard marks.
[17:05]That's where my brain is on.
[17:06]I'm going to do something else when they're like, they're going to be like cool grandparents.
[17:09]You guys love the grandparents.
[17:10]They'll be like a new Diane.
[17:11]Exactly.
[17:12]Without the white ripped turtle necks.
[17:16]But yes.
[17:17]You know, I do think though that girls developing early is something that that not enough
[17:23]is said about I mean, like I mean, not that I should be revealing this, but like I was
[17:28]definitely wearing a bra by the time I was 10.
[17:30]And I've like never felt comfortable in that regard ever since.
[17:34]Like I, my mom did a tie bra and I hid between all the robes in the store.
[17:37]And I was like, I don't know.
[17:38]You want to see me like, you know, no, but I feel like, and with you two like age 12,
[17:43]like you're, like you're not necessarily ready for that.
[17:48]And how do you then deal with your body and the rest of your life when something, it's
[17:52]almost as if there's this something that's out of your control from the minute you get
[17:55]going, right?
[17:56]And you're struggling to catch up afterwards ever since.
[17:58]Yeah.
[17:59]Not only are you struggling to catch up, but you also want to fit in because you're at
[18:03]that age where you don't want to be different.
[18:05]Yeah.
[18:06]And then, you know, you become a teenager, a young adult, and everyone has a different
[18:11]relationship with sexuality.
[18:14]And because we were religious, it was just like shame on shame on shame on shame and shame.
[18:18]But I knew deep down on the side that, you know, I want to be this happy, vivacious,
[18:24]sassy, let's see what it looks like naked person, but you know, those people sounded like
[18:31]mean and bad people.
[18:34]And then when I finally moved away and had sex, I was like, no, this is great.
[18:40]This is amazing.
[18:41]And there's nothing wrong with that at all.
[18:44]In fact, it was like a great lesson in sort of speaking up for what I wanted, whether
[18:49]it was dating somebody casual or serious, whatever it was, it's like, oh my God, there's
[18:54]no classes in school that will tell you how to speak up for yourself.
[18:59]At least when I was going to school, I don't know about now.
[19:01]there's like a class for everything, but yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's a wonderful
[19:07]lesson.
[19:08]And I feel like, wow, you know, in comedy, they always tell you to learn from the good
[19:11]and the bad, like learn from when someone's killing on stage and when someone's just dying,
[19:15]which is very violent and all of them saying that that loud, but I feel like the same
[19:19]could be said from your childhood experiences.
[19:23]Do you feel like when you were writing the book that it always had to be funny?
[19:26]Like, did you, as a comedian, do you feel like I better make this section funny or how
[19:30]do I, how do I turn this piece?
[19:32]Because a lot of it was very funny, but a lot of it was, there was pain beneath some
[19:36]of the humor, right?
[19:38]So how did you?
[19:39]Yeah.
[19:40]In terms of tone.
[19:41]I mean, I couldn't answer that.
[19:42]I was just truly like these are the stories I want to share, get it done on paper because
[19:47]it's so, it's easier to do a show or host a dinner party or storytelling show and just
[19:53]talk it out, but to put it in print, I'm just like, you know, all over the place and
[19:59]as.
[20:00]I am on stage. I'm just like, what's the beginning, middle and end? And so I never thought about being funny
[20:05]because I feel like that's there, no matter what, even the way I describe something,
[20:08]everyone's just like, who the fuck? And I was like, me? That's how I describe it.
[20:12]You know, emotional cardio is the only cardio I'll be doing. Everyone's like, who says that?
[20:16]Me, bitch. So like, I already knew it would be funny, but I also knew that I
[20:21]want to share these more painful, more sincere moments. Yeah, I was just like, get it done.
[20:28]You know, that's been a big thing for me. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's just
[20:31]got to get done. And why did you say that this is like the worst thing you've ever done,
[20:36]and that you wouldn't ever want to wrap up? Well, I mean, again, it's like the hours, the sheer
[20:42]hours that it takes to write something is crazy. And when, for me, at least I have like every
[20:48]hour booked in my life, in my day, I even have like an hour to relax. If I do, like I will say, I'm
[20:55]going to go in this dark room. It's usually my closet. And I just let me do my thing.
[21:00]So it was just an added thing that I had to put in the schedule of already crazy. And then also
[21:09]just sort of be vulnerable in a way that I never had before. Like, it feels like, what if I just
[21:15]mean an album, a singing album? And I'm like, okay, Christine, I can later listen to this. It's like,
[21:20]I'm not a right. I'm not a right. Like I've written like TVs and punch-ups. And she like is like
[21:25]so much different than an author. Can you say author?
[21:31]Yeah. And then like the edits where you have to like go back and read it. And then like the note
[21:37]where someone else is ready. It's so crazy. It does feel like you are fully frontal,
[21:44]lean fucking naked, getting a pap smear in Times Square. Wow. That would not be
[21:51]things to do. So yeah, I can do what I'm doing again. So I know how busy you must be because
[21:58]we scheduled this at like 10, 15. And I'm like, that is a really busy person who's scheduling
[22:02]things on the quarter hour. Well, I'm in England right now. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm in Manchester.
[22:10]Off the record. Is that how you say it? I'm filming the circle, which is the show I host on Netflix.
[22:16]And so it films in England. And so I managed to bring the kids and our nanny with us because I'm
[22:22]here for six weeks. Well, two more weeks, four weeks down. Wow. I can't wait to go home. At least you
[22:27]got to travel. I feel like there's no travel allowed for so long. But anyway, yeah.
[22:32]So what is coming next? You're always doing a million things. And now you've got this book
[22:36]lunch on top of everything. So what what is like your next year? Do you have any idea? Like,
[22:41]what's it looking like for you? It's summer. Well, first of all, shout out to whatever dog just
[22:44]shook themselves. I know. I love it. Sorry. I am so sorry. No, I love it. I have a lab Mastiff. And so
[22:51]she shakes like a pony. Yeah. Black lab. What's next? I feel like something is next, but I don't
[22:56]remember. But you know, I'm also like for once in a long time, not living in the, what's next?
[23:01]What's next? I'm just like, this is dope. Let's just enjoy this. Like, I'm not hooked up to
[23:05]a ventilator. I've just dropped some really important black joy content that I've worked really
[23:10]hard to put together. Sucks that there's a quarantine, but also amazing that people are enjoying
[23:15]it within like a pandemic and a race revolution. Fucking bananas. And so I think for me,
[23:21]you know, I've really enjoyed acting and hosting and all the above. I really also enjoy being
[23:26]the bridesmaid, but I can't wait to be the bride. Amazing. So what advice would you have to
[23:35]aspiring authors? And don't say, like, don't write the book because it has to be a little more
[23:39]positive than that. Oh my goodness. Well, I said it already. I mean, don't worry about it being perfect.
[23:45]Just doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be done. You can always go back and edit, but
[23:50]you know, I think that and also don't do whatever you think people want to hear. That's whack,
[23:59]you know, do what you are passionate about. And that could be anything. It could be knitting or
[24:06]snails or beaches or, you know, whatever time in your life or just a collection of like essays and
[24:13]short stories. It doesn't have to, no one, no one is Stephen King out the damn gate. Very true.
[24:20]Start somewhere. That was like one piece of advice, but here we are. You know, people can need all
[24:25]the advice they can get. I think that's awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for talking about your
[24:30]book. It was so good and so funny and a really refreshing style. I mean, you just like, oh, you know,
[24:38]tell it like it is. I mean, no choice. I was like, I'm trying to like go through the essays and like
[24:46]figure out what I want to do as a promo video. And I'm just like, who was with like, you know,
[24:51]if your relationship stinks like fish is probably extra pussy, like that's something I'm wrong.
[24:56]If someone's mom, I'm a good person. Anyway, nice. Nice to meet you. Best of luck with the
[25:03]lunch and everything else. And I was so nice to share some time with you today. Likewise. Bye. Bye.
[25:11]Thanks again to Farity for being a sponsor today. Go to Farity brand dot com slash zibi
[25:17]and get 25% off. Enter code zibi for 25% off. These amazing comfy winter clothes and summer,
[25:25]but for now winter and we will thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of mom's don't
[25:30]have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at mom's
[25:35]don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my
[25:40]virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and
[25:45]Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to morning moon productions for
[25:49]providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.