Matthew John Bocchi, SWAY
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[1:52]in my car and on walks. I recently finished searching for Sylvie Lee by Jean Quack, also small
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[2:11]or text zibi to 500-500. Did I say that enough times? Matthew Bauci is the author of Sway.
[2:18]Matt began speaking in front of high school audiences throughout the tri-state area
[2:22]delivering a message that embodies hope, resilience, and inspiration.
[2:25]The awestruck reception led him to write his debut memoir Sway, which is the first story told
[2:30]by a child of a 9-11 victim. Matt currently resides in New Jersey and is in long-term recovery
[2:36]with plans to continue more writing and speaking in the future.
[2:39]Welcome, Matt. Thank you so much for coming on mom's time to read books.
[2:43]Morning, Zibi, and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
[2:47]Your book was so good. I loved it. I could not put it down. I read all the way to the end,
[2:53]every word. It was like, don't even talk to me, you know, like when I was reading it. Anyway,
[2:58]congratulations on writing this beautiful memoir. Can you please tell listeners what Sway is about?
[3:03]So I guess the quick synopsis and the easiest way to put it, I mean, in terms of themes and
[3:09]messages, I think that my story encapsulates resilience, inspiration, hope. But my story is really,
[3:16]it starts off as a 9-11 story, but it shifts drastically. My dad worked at Ken and for
[3:21]Sheldon 104, the North Tower, and passed away in 9-11. And the reason why I think 9-11 is such an
[3:28]integral part of the story is because it's the catalyst to everything else that happened in my life.
[3:33]And not only that, but it's really when my life changed. And a lot of our lives really changed.
[3:38]But for someone who was personally affected by it, it had a really long lasting effect on me.
[3:44]And so the early years after 9-11 I spent trying to figure out how my dad died. And hearing
[3:51]what I was told from family wasn't enough and didn't suffice for me. I wanted to have every
[3:59]single minute and second of those last moments outlined and figured out. And I really wasn't going
[4:05]to stop until I got to that point. And so as the years went on, I was really, really direct and
[4:11]poignant with my questions. I had like facts and data and research to back up all the things that I
[4:17]was asking. And this like inquisitiveness really was what was my downfall, my initial downfall.
[4:23]That led to me being sexually abused by a local through marriage. And as dad transpired,
[4:29]the feelings that I started to accumulate of guilt and shame and embarrassment was a big one.
[4:35]All those feelings led me to start using drugs and alcohols a way to cope with my feelings and
[4:40]emotions. And so I went down a path of drug addiction for many years. And by the grace of God,
[4:47]I was able to pull myself out of it. And I've maintained my sobriety sense. But my story,
[4:51]you know, it's a continual downfall as it progresses. But of course, as a happy ending and there's
[4:57]arising at the end. Well, as I was reading it, just one thing after another, I wanted to like
[5:03]reach out and hug you and be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is happening. And now this is
[5:08]happening. And and yet you kept you like, I mean, I guess you just keep on keeping on. It's like
[5:14]what you have to do. But like, you just did it. And you kept, I don't know, your resilience is
[5:19]amazing. I guess is all I'm trying to say. Can we talk first about 9 11? Because you're one of
[5:26]the first people, if not the very first person, to write a memoir from the experience of a child
[5:31]of someone who had died that day. And I, my best friend actually also worked in the North,
[5:36]North Tower in roommate. And it's so crazy for me to think that like just a few floors up,
[5:40]your dad was there and my friend was there. And what happened that day? And like you, you know,
[5:45]you're sort of obsession with or what you later called an addiction to sort of watching the
[5:50]footage religiously almost is something I shared at the beginning, just watching all of the jumpers
[5:55]as so many people probably did to see if they could spy their loved one in the, what were they
[6:00]wearing? What was, you know, and that's such a unique sort of phenomenon to this event, I feel like,
[6:06]right? And that need to understand what happened. So tell me a little more about your compulsion to
[6:15]research and that need you had to understand the end. And like why it felt so important to you
[6:21]to know? I think if you look at 9-11 itself from like a third person, third party point of view,
[6:28]and you just, especially someone who grew up in the tri-state area, people who knew the world
[6:33]traded to be witnessing what was going on with obviously the planes, but then watching people
[6:40]voluntarily jump to their debts as a way out, as a way to not have to deal with what was going
[6:45]on inside. It was so baffling and perplexing to me that I just, I was amazed by it. And so I
[6:51]guess, you know, on some sort of philosophical level, I think I was looking for myself
[6:56]in also trying to figure out my dad's story. I think that I kind of, I was the oldest,
[7:02]I am the oldest before boys, but being a nine-year-old kid at the time, think that there was
[7:08]just a need to figure out who I would become as a person in a sense to and really by
[7:14]watching these moments, these last moments to try to figure out my dad's story,
[7:17]they're trying to figure out who he was as a person, although you can't figure that out in
[7:23]someone's final moments and something so tragic and horrible as what was going on in there.
[7:28]But I guess I was extremely naive and I thought I could. And I think that I guess what I
[7:33]started to realize through time and watching certain documentaries was people, they at least
[7:39]claimed that they were getting some sort of closure by finding out, okay, my loved one,
[7:45]good chance my loved one was a jumper. I mean, this picture pretty much looks like them. They
[7:49]knew they had their answers and that was that. So for me, I thought maybe I would have my closure
[7:54]and my piece and know, okay, my dad made a few phone calls after the plaintiff and then
[7:59]he realized there wasn't a way out and that was that, but I didn't have that. So I held on to that,
[8:05]I held on to the belief that maybe, you know, he was able to figure out something, maybe it
[8:09]wasn't so bad for him in there. And so, and just as I continued to watch those videos and stuff
[8:16]and look at the pictures to seem to tragedy unfold. I mean, it's just a horrible thing to witness,
[8:21]obviously. But knowing that my dad was in there and those, that's where he spent his final moments,
[8:27]it just really overwhelmed me to a degree. And now I'm at a point now where I know the answers.
[8:32]I know what I'm going to know and what I will forever know. I also know that I will not be able
[8:37]to find out every little detail and that is something I'm okay with today, but it took me a long
[8:43]time to get to that point to really be at peace, so to speak. I mean, the intensity of the search
[8:50]and all of the ways that you wrote about it were just so moving and even how you described the
[8:57]fact that he was able to call and that you do have a record. So you knew that he knew and then as
[9:03]all these details emerged, how you kind of had to make sense of that yourself, I mean.
[9:08]Yeah. And I think too, he really did know. And that's the thing that's fascinating to me too,
[9:14]is the fact that he called two minutes after the plane hit. And I think that there was already
[9:19]an uncertain, a level of uncertainty inside the tower. I have a feeling that things got bad
[9:24]pretty quickly, just given the fact that he kind of faced that head on. And it would only get worse,
[9:30]obviously, his time would progress. But so also like hearing that too from my family,
[9:35]like I didn't get to witness that myself. I didn't get to go through that myself. I didn't get to
[9:39]speak to him. So I wanted something for myself. I wanted something greater that I could hold on to
[9:43]that I can cherish. And you know, like there's so many like positive stories too, right? There's
[9:49]good Samaritan stories of like, you know, like the guy with red bandana and stories such
[9:55]like that, where there's a happy ending for the family. And so I.
[10:00]was so determined to find that happy ending story.
[10:03]Even though my dad didn't make it out,
[10:05]maybe he did something miraculous or heroic before he passed,
[10:07]you know, and that was something I was really trying
[10:10]to figure out and search for.
[10:12]And all it did was bring up more anger and sadness
[10:16]and confusion.
[10:18]And also, for you, exposing yourself
[10:20]at such a young age to that graphic, awful, violent,
[10:24]I mean, just disturbing imagery, that is a lot
[10:28]for anybody to take on.
[10:30]I mean, that didn't of itself.
[10:32]It's like watching a trillion, like,
[10:35]or rated movies at the wrong age, over and over.
[10:38]Like the trauma of that.
[10:40]I mean, how did we get over that part?
[10:43]And it's real life.
[10:44]And that's the thing that's, like, you go into Manhattan
[10:46]and like, you know, like 20 years old,
[10:48]I have a lot of friends who live in Manhattan,
[10:50]and you go in there and you look at the skyscrapers, right?
[10:53]And like, even like the skyscrapers
[10:55]that are 40 stories high, like that are not like big,
[10:58]buildings, right?
[10:59]That don't like overcome the skyline.
[11:01]And you realize that the World Trade Center
[11:04]was nearly triple that.
[11:06]And that's what people were watching, right?
[11:09]People on the outside were watching that.
[11:10]So, you know, 28 years old now,
[11:13]I've had friends who finished my book
[11:15]and they told me, you know, look, I'm gonna be honest with you,
[11:18]like, I actually started looking at some of that stuff.
[11:20]I was curious after reading what you said and wrote
[11:22]and how you wrote it, I was curious to see it for myself.
[11:26]And I don't know what degree they looked at it,
[11:27]obviously, but I didn't really ask.
[11:29]But I think for so many people,
[11:32]it was so easy to try to forget back then.
[11:36]Especially around my age,
[11:37]like, I was obviously relatively young.
[11:38]So for people to, like myself, to be doing what I was doing
[11:43]and searching when I was searching,
[11:45]and it got to a point where it was completely voluntary
[11:48]and I wanted to try to find something.
[11:50]I think that people realized how almost like,
[11:54]just like heartbreaking, my story is,
[11:56]what I went through as a child
[11:58]because many of my friends who also lost her dad's
[12:01]and I didn't, did not go through that.
[12:03]They didn't want to know.
[12:05]They didn't want to look at that.
[12:06]Or maybe they just accepted it for what it was worth.
[12:08]You know, their dad died and he's not coming back
[12:10]and that's that.
[12:11]But for me, I just, I wanted something more.
[12:14]And I, that's just like the story of my life.
[12:16]You know, nothing was ever enough for me.
[12:19]You know, it's like I always, always,
[12:21]always wanted something greater.
[12:23]Even with like writing my book, it was like,
[12:25]I can't even tell you the amount of rewrites I had done.
[12:27]Now the books and hard cover out for everyone to read.
[12:29]And I'm look, I'm, I haven't even read it back to back yet
[12:32]because I've read it on the PDF and stuff.
[12:35]But if I read that book, like I opened up to the epilogue
[12:38]and I'm like searching through and I'm finding words
[12:41]that I would change.
[12:42]Like this is like what I do.
[12:43]I over-critique myself.
[12:45]And I mean, I'm just trying to like grow as a writer,
[12:49]but you know, I look for things that I wish I wrote
[12:51]differently or maybe had a different change on a certain way.
[12:55]to kind of express something.
[12:56]You know, there's certain things that I wish I did differently.
[12:58]I mean, I guess I could for the paperback book.
[13:00]There's always the paperback.
[13:04]Yeah.
[13:04]Well, I want to talk about your writing,
[13:05]but I just like one story,
[13:07]which will probably make me sound crazy.
[13:09]So I had always believed that my friends,
[13:12]Stacy had died instantly because the plane hit
[13:16]right at her floor.
[13:16]So, and she, her mom said the phone rang once right
[13:20]at that time and Stacy always used to get to her desk
[13:22]and call her mom.
[13:23]And so our belief collectively was that she had gotten
[13:28]to the office sat down, started to call her mother,
[13:31]the plane hit, and she died instantly.
[13:33]So that's sort of like our theory
[13:34]because nothing ever turned up.
[13:36]But then I saw, I had a session with this medium.
[13:41]This sounds so hokey.
[13:42]But until this session, I didn't really believe in mediums,
[13:46]but she said all this stuff at other people
[13:49]that I just thought there was no way.
[13:50]Anyway, she told me that that is not what happened to Stacy
[13:55]and that she heard a loud explosion.
[13:58]So she must have been elsewhere in the building
[14:00]and that she was with a nice older man
[14:02]and that the two of them were trying to find their way out
[14:06]and then it happened.
[14:08]So I don't know if I believe that or not, but I don't know.
[14:12]So you know, she was trying to find her way out
[14:14]and then the building collapsed.
[14:15]Yeah, or something, or yeah.
[14:18]So I don't know.
[14:19]The thing is about these things.
[14:20]We'll never know, but now I have like two theories in my head.
[14:23]So you know, with mediums,
[14:26]I've had one experience with them.
[14:28]Actually, I think that that my mom has had one experience
[14:31]or at least that I know of.
[14:32]I never have.
[14:33]I did a psychic.
[14:34]It wasn't the same.
[14:35]Those I don't maybe believe into a certain degree.
[14:38]You know, if I really believed in that,
[14:40]my book would have been a best seller three years ago.
[14:42]So my mom had an experience with a medium that was,
[14:46]you know, she said, she said what you just voiced
[14:48]that there was no way of knowing some of these things.
[14:51]And I've been kind of curious myself to maybe to check that out
[14:54]and see, but, you know, I don't know.
[14:56]It's like one of those things where it's like, do you believe it?
[14:58]Do you want to believe it?
[14:59]Oh, I know.
[15:00]I know.
[15:01]I don't know.
[15:02]It gave me some sort of sense of peace.
[15:04]I think it's like you're bringing it from someone else, right?
[15:07]I don't know.
[15:08]I know what happened, but she's OK now.
[15:10]And you know, anyway, let's go back to your writing
[15:14]of this book because the writing itself is amazing.
[15:18]And you didn't, as some memoirs, you know,
[15:22]along the way, they might say that how much they loved writing
[15:24]or something.
[15:25]So I didn't get anywhere in here that you had turned to writing
[15:28]as like a coping technique at all.
[15:30]I mean, the drugs and all the other stuff you did were very
[15:32]spelled out.
[15:33]So I was wondering, like, when did the writing start?
[15:35]And have you always loved to write?
[15:37]And I just didn't come through in the text.
[15:40]And how did you do this?
[15:41]Because it's the crafting of it is exceptional.
[15:44]It's really all of it, the time, the way you go back and forth
[15:48]and time, the language, the immediacy.
[15:51]Anyway, tell me about that part.
[15:53]Well, first of all, thank you for that.
[15:55]Because I, like I said, could take my writing.
[15:58]And I'm really overly critical too.
[16:01]And then I think I do like probably like what authors and writers
[16:04]should not do 101 is read people's reviews of your book.
[16:07]And a lot of people, not a lot of people, OK?
[16:10]So this is where I like, I focus on the minority, right?
[16:13]That's what the way it always goes.
[16:15]I have a lot of good reviews.
[16:16]And then I have like a couple of reviews that have said where I either
[16:20]skipped out on parts or maybe like fast forward
[16:22]or through parts or something.
[16:23]So I think I, so I briefly mentioned it towards the end
[16:27]about how I used to journal as a kid.
[16:29]I'm not sure if you remember that part.
[16:30]So what it came down to was my mom's brother is a music journalist.
[16:35]And he gave me my first journal when I was 10 years old.
[16:39]And you wrote a little note on Christmas morning.
[16:42]And he said, you know, just write in this one.
[16:44]He's like, I've gone through hundreds of these journals in my life.
[16:47]Write whatever comes to your mind.
[16:48]And you know, don't overthink it.
[16:50]And so in the beginning, I did that.
[16:52]You know, I wrote whatever I, whatever came to my mind, I wrote.
[16:55]Then I started treating it sort of like homework.
[16:57]And I kind of straight away from it because I didn't really like that.
[17:00]It was like I would come home from, I would go to bed.
[17:02]I'm right, like, oh, you know, school is good.
[17:04]There was nothing deeper.
[17:06]So I was talking about this actually, one of my friends
[17:08]was going to know about in college.
[17:10]My biggest regret, one of my biggest regrets in college
[17:12]is that I didn't pursue creative writing, the way it shows,
[17:17]or writing in general.
[17:18]And I didn't pursue my goals and dreams because I was so obviously
[17:22]I was going through addiction.
[17:23]But I think I was fixated on, on filling the, or, or continuing the story
[17:29]that people wanted for me, which was, you know, going to finance or whatever.
[17:32]So when I got sober, I started speaking at schools.
[17:36]And as time went on in my speaking, it was, I started off as the basic 9, 11
[17:42]story into drugs, now recovery.
[17:45]Well, then I started going a little bit deeper.
[17:47]And then when I got deeper and I talked about the abuse and then, you know,
[17:51]my obsession with my dad's death and all that stuff, people were really
[17:55]blown away by that and said to me, you should write a book.
[17:58]And so for me, the journaling started to continue in sobriety.
[18:02]I shouldn't say started to continue.
[18:03]It, it reemerged in sobriety.
[18:05]So I started writing just like basic things, you know, it was just like,
[18:09]whatever was coming in my mind and just like pain.
[18:12]Like just like the pain, physical pain, emotional pain, mental pain, all the
[18:15]things I was feeling.
[18:16]And then in 2016, I said, you know what, I'm going to do this.
[18:20]And it was like the end, tail end of 2016 and I started writing sweat.
[18:25]And the way I did it initially was I didn't even have a laptop at the time.
[18:29]Like I had like not like nothing.
[18:31]So I borrowed my brother's laptop and I started dating stories.
[18:34]And I still have that original document.
[18:36]I started dating the story and it would be like, it was like December 2014.
[18:40]And then I would just write out the story.
[18:42]And then I finished that, I finished about 50,000 words in like three months.
[18:48]And then I went to an editor.
[18:49]He's like, yeah, I think you need to like do this, do this.
[18:52]We worked on it.
[18:53]I wrote another 30 or 40,000 words, but then cut out like 15.
[18:58]Finish the first chapter 2017 and then started pitching it to agents and
[19:02]nothing was happening.
[19:03]And then I started rewriting it.
[19:06]And that's where I like, I think I started to find my voice big time.
[19:11]Because I really had to get vulnerable.
[19:13]There was a lot of things that weren't there in the beginning.
[19:15]I didn't leave it as it was very surface level.
[19:19]And so I got really deep and basically just said my whole entire story in detail and
[19:25]graphic detail.
[19:26]And I think that's what people are, I guess, amazed by is the honesty.
[19:32]Especially as male heterosexual male, like saying some of the things that I said that I admitted
[19:37]to happening, you know, like most people don't want to talk about that stuff.
[19:40]And so I think that sort of, that vulnerability was important for me in order to grow
[19:44]as a person too.
[19:45]So then I can just, I continued rewriting stuff.
[19:49]Like I mean, the ending, the first ending that I had was not well rounded.
[19:54]What I ended up doing was it was strictly chronological in the beginning.
[19:58]And I didn't want that.
[20:00]wanted something, I was doing it almost as a movie,
[20:02]and I wanted it to be a little creative.
[20:04]Like I wanted parts to move around.
[20:06]And so that's when I started moving,
[20:09]I started moving segments around.
[20:10]I had to find the right spots warm.
[20:12]And I finally had like these clicking moments
[20:15]where it was like, here it is.
[20:16]And then like for instance, like the car, my dad's car.
[20:19]Oh, oh my God.
[20:20]That scene with my uncle going to get the car
[20:22]was initially like weighing the beginning.
[20:24]I changed that to move it to the end
[20:26]and then finished the story with us driving the car.
[20:29]So as time went on, I found my voice.
[20:31]You know, I did.
[20:32]And now I write every day and I'm focusing.
[20:36]I think one of the issues that I ran into, not issues,
[20:40]but sort of like at the lemma was I was writing
[20:43]the way I write now for my nine-year-old voice.
[20:47]So as like, I had to go back in time to not reflect.
[20:51]It had to be like in the moment.
[20:53]Like what were you feeling in the moment?
[20:54]And for me, to remember some of those details
[20:57]was really, really hard.
[20:58]But I had to put myself back there to do that.
[21:00]And same thing with like 14-year-old, because it was like,
[21:02]I know what I look at, look back at now
[21:06]and how I reflect on these moments.
[21:08]I can't have the, that can't be laid out for the reader, right?
[21:12]It has to be in the moment and that has to progress.
[21:15]So what's, I guess, a beautiful thing now
[21:17]is that I can write now.
[21:19]Like this is like, I'm 28 years old.
[21:21]This is my writing now and it's a little bit slower
[21:24]with like dragging out imagery a little bit more.
[21:27]And that's like, I'm trying to like really slow it down
[21:30]for a reader, like every little deep, like the cardigan
[21:33]and like describing the cardigan, like things like that.
[21:36]And whereas I felt at times, I had to kind of condense
[21:41]certain things, you know, certain parts of the story,
[21:44]where maybe I would like to have expanded a little bit more
[21:46]or gone into a lot more detail, it gets to a point too.
[21:51]Because, you know, with the editing process,
[21:53]where is it really, does it need to be there?
[21:56]Is it really gonna move the reader one way or the other?
[21:59]So I'll be honest with you as a kid and as time went on,
[22:02]did I envision myself to be writing?
[22:04]Absolutely not.
[22:05]And there's like days that I don't wanna do it for, right?
[22:07]There's days that it feels like a job and that, in that sense.
[22:11]But then there's days where, you know, like a daylight today,
[22:13]a muggy day, where all I wanna do is reading, right?
[22:16]So, you know, it has its perks and benefits sometimes.
[22:20]I literally like posted a picture yesterday of me
[22:23]like reading a book because it's like so disgusting.
[22:26]And I'm like, yeah, that is all I wanna do.
[22:28]And it's not what I'm doing, but like reading, writing, cozy,
[22:33]like maybe under the covers, that would be like a dream day.
[22:37]But anyway, that's one of the perks of writing, I guess.
[22:41]So are you working on another big project or what do you have to?
[22:45]So there's a couple things.
[22:47]I was approached by a couple screenwriters
[22:49]about adapting it to a movie.
[22:50]I would like to have some sort of say in the writing process
[22:54]for that.
[22:54]So there's been discussions of that.
[22:56]That's sort of where I'm going.
[22:57]But the thing is writing a memoir versus a screenplay,
[23:00]it's totally different type of writing.
[23:02]So I'm a little hesitant in a way if I wanna put,
[23:05]you know, both feet into that fully.
[23:07]The thing with my story is I knew this going into it.
[23:11]I could have split it up into three books essentially.
[23:13]I didn't wanna do that at the end because what I felt was,
[23:17]especially 911 and drug abuse,
[23:19]or excuse me, the sexual abuse led into everything else
[23:21]that I did.
[23:22]I don't blame them and I don't use them as reasons
[23:24]for doing what I did.
[23:25]I know I have an addictive personality
[23:27]and it's just who I am as a person.
[23:29]But I felt that it would be remiss if I didn't include it all
[23:33]because these all played into each other.
[23:35]And it was just a domino effect.
[23:38]And so that was like people were saying,
[23:40]well, maybe you should split it up,
[23:41]maybe you should split it up.
[23:42]Like, I didn't want just a story of me 911 and all that.
[23:46]Like, I wanted it to be different.
[23:48]And I think it certainly is.
[23:49]But now, you know, it's been where the book ends
[23:53]versus where I am today is about four years,
[23:56]besides the epilogue where I feel the readers
[23:59]and not where I am, where it ends was four years ago.
[24:01]So I have four years of insularity struggles
[24:05]and other things that I went through.
[24:07]And I'm debating about sort of taking like an Augustine
[24:09]bros type of spin on it, you know,
[24:10]and like kind of continuing.
[24:12]And then maybe in continuing the story,
[24:14]I can also really touch back on things from my childhood
[24:17]that are not in Sway, where it's not gonna be repetitive.
[24:21]And obviously, there's like a,
[24:22]there has to be creative and like artistic approach
[24:24]to do that.
[24:25]I don't want it to be repetitive.
[24:26]But I think that there's a lot of stuff
[24:28]that has transpired in the last four years
[24:31]that people who were really into my story
[24:34]and wanted to know more about where I am today
[24:36]and all that stuff will definitely,
[24:38]I think they'll find it maybe some,
[24:40]some of us satisfying and see a little bit more growth
[24:43]in the last four years.
[24:44]I also really wanted the continuation
[24:46]of how everything that happened
[24:48]towards the end affected your family.
[24:50]You had like one sentence about it.
[24:51]Like this destroyed my family or whatever.
[24:52]So I was like, wait, what, like what happened?
[24:55]And that's the big thing.
[24:57]Yeah.
[24:58]So, you know, with the way I had, it was really tough
[25:01]because I could have continued writing and writing
[25:03]and writing and writing.
[25:04]No, you ended at a good place.
[25:05]I'm just right now, you know, talking exactly.
[25:07]I don't want you to give away the ending to other people.
[25:10]Well, yeah.
[25:11]So, but they answered your question.
[25:13]Yes, there's a lot that I could fill in for that.
[25:16]And there was a lot of things that we could take it offline.
[25:18]But there's a lot that happened
[25:20]that I think I could tie it back creatively
[25:23]to when it happened originally.
[25:24]And like some of the feelings that came.
[25:26]So, so you are definitely never going back to finance.
[25:29]Is that it?
[25:30]Yeah.
[25:32]Unless they, you know, some place wants to pay me
[25:35]some great money to sit on a board
[25:36]and do not think, I mean, look, I,
[25:39]I said this about two and a half years ago.
[25:42]I was working out with the company.
[25:43]My dad would be working at now if he was still alive.
[25:46]And I was there for about four months.
[25:49]And then I didn't pass one of my serial exams,
[25:52]financial serial exams.
[25:53]And I was presented with the opportunity to leave
[25:55]or basically drive myself to insanity by staying there.
[25:59]And I was like, I'm leaving.
[26:00]And so, back then I was like,
[26:02]all right, I'm going to take my dad's death
[26:04]and the feelings that he had leading into his job
[26:06]and like that day of wanting to quit
[26:09]and not having a chance to do it
[26:11]and finding a street passion in life,
[26:12]I'm going to do that.
[26:13]And I didn't do it.
[26:14]Now, after finally getting the story out there,
[26:18]you know, the publications there, it's out.
[26:20]You know, everyone can read it.
[26:21]Couple of my dad's colleagues reached out to me.
[26:23]And one of which was in the book,
[26:25]and it changes name,
[26:26]but he's in the book, Peter is his name in the book.
[26:28]And he said to me, you know, he's very proud of me.
[26:31]And he's like, you're definitely very proud of you.
[26:32]But you're definitely really proud of the fact
[26:34]that you're not trying to go down this road.
[26:36]He's still in finance
[26:38]and he was trying to get me to come work for him.
[26:41]And this was like recently,
[26:42]this was like right before COVID.
[26:43]So he's like, he's like,
[26:44]I'm not going to even like offer you a job
[26:46]if you even like, if you beg.
[26:48]Like he's like, you gotta,
[26:49]he's like, you're good at this.
[26:50]You should pursue this.
[26:51]This is what is your path.
[26:53]And I think I've done my path.
[26:54]So I'm sticking with this, you know,
[26:56]I'm sticking with it.
[26:57]Good for you.
[26:58]I mean, that's the best ending to any story
[27:01]is finding your purpose in life, right?
[27:03]And I think, you know,
[27:05]the only perk perhaps of 9-11
[27:08]is that it caused so many people to switch gears, right?
[27:11]And say like, this is important to me.
[27:12]Life is short, right?
[27:14]This is what I'm going to do.
[27:15]That's sure.
[27:16]It just took you a little bit longer, maybe.
[27:18]But one question I just have to ask is,
[27:21]when I know we're up the time,
[27:22]but I want to know how your brother's
[27:24]and your mom are doing
[27:25]and how they felt with the book coming out.
[27:28]Okay, so they're all doing well.
[27:30]My mom, as time went on,
[27:32]she, I started to give her,
[27:35]I print out old fashioned,
[27:36]print out a chapter at a time.
[27:38]She got to chapter five or six,
[27:40]around the time where the review starts
[27:42]and put it on pause for a little bit.
[27:44]And then when I got my complimentary copies
[27:46]from the publisher,
[27:48]she was like, you know, I got them about,
[27:50]about a month or so prior to that coming out.
[27:52]And she was like, all right, like here's your book.
[27:55]And she's like, all right, I'm not going to read it.
[27:58]I'm not going to read it.
[27:59]I'm going to read it.
[27:59]She didn't know what to do.
[28:01]And then she got to her own answer of,
[28:03]you lived it, I can read it.
[28:05]And she read it.
[28:06]And my mom is not a quick reader,
[28:08]but she breeze through it and she loved it.
[28:10]And there was a lot of difficult,
[28:12]it's difficult for her to read, obviously.
[28:14]My brothers were very proud of me.
[28:16]They're very, very proud of me
[28:18]for getting my story out there
[28:19]and being diligent with it
[28:21]and determined and persistent to get it done
[28:23]and get it out to my knowledge.
[28:25]I don't know if they've read it yet and full.
[28:27]It's hard for them.
[28:28]It's hard for them
[28:29]because they didn't have the same effect with 9-eleven
[28:32]that I did.
[28:32]They didn't go through the other things
[28:33]that I went through, but they know about it.
[28:36]But to read it on paper,
[28:37]I think makes it a little bit more real.
[28:38]And it certainly is the same for a lot of my family too.
[28:42]My mom and dad both sides of my family.
[28:44]For them to read it, just makes it more real.
[28:46]You know, this is not some random author.
[28:50]This is not some fiction pieces.
[28:51]It's, you know, they're nephew or they're, you know,
[28:54]grandson or whatever.
[28:54]So it makes it a lot.
[28:56]I think in some ways, it makes it a lot harder to swallow
[28:59]too, because it's just, you know,
[29:01]how crazy that this all happened under everyone's eyes.
[29:04]No one was expecting that.
[29:05]But they were, you know, it was really cool
[29:07]for them seeing me on TV and stuff.
[29:09]And like, you know, I hit a couple
[29:10]of my brother's favorite spots.
[29:12]So he was really happy about that.
[29:13]But it was just important, I think,
[29:15]to finally get to be upfront and address this
[29:19]and be okay with who I am, you know,
[29:21]to say that on national TV is like,
[29:24]my mom was saying to me,
[29:25]doing like the release.
[29:27]That was the one thing that they were asking me,
[29:29]a lot about was like, you know,
[29:30]how are you feeling?
[29:31]Like how are you doing?
[29:32]Like, and it's just so surreal as you're going through it
[29:35]that it just almost doesn't feel real.
[29:38]And it's like, it's like four years ago,
[29:41]I was writing this book.
[29:42]I had no, I was thinking at first, I'm like,
[29:45]okay, I'm gonna write it.
[29:47]I'll get an agent probably like three months.
[29:49]Maybe a month.
[29:50]Like I'll reach out to like 10 agents
[29:52]and one of them is gonna grab and you know the process.
[29:54]I mean, it's hard.
[29:55]So the thing that it can't, it actually happened
[29:58]is just is to me.
[30:00]biggest success that I can have.
[30:01]If it does really well, bestseller lists,
[30:03]I obviously I'll be happy,
[30:05]but that wasn't my end goal from day one.
[30:09]And the little messages I'm receiving
[30:10]on Instagram and stuff like that are to me
[30:13]what I did this for.
[30:15]Parents of sons or daughters with addiction,
[30:19]people went through 9-11, that's why I did this.
[30:21]People to be like, thank you for telling your story
[30:24]and that they can get something out of it, you know?
[30:26]I mean, that's like the true gift that you leave, right?
[30:29]It's a true gift.
[30:30]Okay, last question, what is your advice
[30:32]to aspiring authors?
[30:33]Okay, it sounds very cliche,
[30:35]but just don't ever give up.
[30:36]I mean, I think it was really easy,
[30:41]at some points in life, in the writing life,
[30:45]I was very, not that self publishing is a sign of failure.
[30:48]It's not, but I was very close to either saying,
[30:52]I'm not gonna get this book out there ever,
[30:54]and I'm not gonna even self publish it,
[30:57]or I'm gonna self publish it,
[30:59]and then we'll see what happens.
[31:00]I didn't go with the traditional way either,
[31:02]you know, I don't have an agent right now.
[31:04]I was able to get in contact with my publisher,
[31:07]it was a little bit smaller,
[31:08]and we worked out a great deal and everything
[31:11]that was okay with me and, you know,
[31:13]definitely has its perks for sure,
[31:16]but it was not an easy, easy stuff getting.
[31:19]I mean, the rejection is, I think,
[31:22]what a year's a lot of writers
[31:23]and prevents them from really kind of continuing to pursue it
[31:26]because, you know, you get a couple rejections from agents,
[31:29]and you think, mom, my story's not good enough,
[31:31]or my writing's not good enough,
[31:33]and it's really hard to hear it,
[31:35]but you have to just keep going
[31:37]and you'll find your right fit, finally.
[31:39]One day, you'll find that fit.
[31:41]I mean, I remember there was one time I had an agent
[31:42]who lost their uncle on 9-Eleven,
[31:45]and I'm reading her response,
[31:47]and I'm like, oh my God, this is it,
[31:48]I finally found the one, and then she's like,
[31:50]but it's too close, it was started for me, I can't do this.
[31:53]You know, so it's like,
[31:54]I think that it was really hard for me
[31:56]as someone who has insecurity issues to begin with,
[31:59]and, you know, self-confidence and self-esteem issues
[32:03]to get those rejections,
[32:04]and sometimes they're just so bland
[32:07]that it's like, this person's like, my story sucks.
[32:10]Like, my writing's not good.
[32:12]Like, it's very easy to get in your head,
[32:14]but you really have to stay persistent
[32:16]and know that, you know, your writing is good
[32:19]in whatever way that, you know,
[32:22]someone's gonna find something from your story,
[32:24]whether it's non-fiction or fiction.
[32:26]So that would be my advice to keep going, don't give up.
[32:29]Excellent advice.
[32:31]Well, Matt, thank you, so nice to meet you.
[32:33]Yeah, no, likewise, likewise.
[32:35]Yeah, it was awesome.
[32:36]It was awesome.
[32:37]But thank you so much for coming on the podcast,
[32:40]and for this beautiful book,
[32:42]I'm pleased with this amazing cover, by the way,
[32:43]which I didn't even pick up on what this was
[32:46]until like half of it through the book,
[32:47]and I was like, oh, anyway, so well done.
[32:50]Thank you so much, and we'll certainly be in touch,
[32:52]and yes, I'll keep you posted.
[32:54]And by the way, thank you.
[32:55]I have to thank you again for nominating my book
[32:58]for the Gmail list.
[32:59]Of course, it was so funny when I got,
[33:02]when I found out the connection to that,
[33:03]I was like, oh my God, this is like,
[33:05]I have to reach out to her.
[33:06]I have to try to get on her podcast.
[33:07]No, no, I actually had meant to reach out to you,
[33:10]and then, you know, things kind of crazy.
[33:12]So I'm so glad that you did.
[33:13]So yeah, I wanted to have you on
[33:15]from when I first got hold of it, so.
[33:17]Thank you so much.
[33:18]Okay. All right.
[33:20]Okay, five minutes.
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[33:41]of moms don't have time to read books.
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