Alice Hoffman, MAGIC LESSONS
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[2:36]Okay, Alice Hoffman's bio is like several pages long because she has done so many amazing things. But I'm going to read you the condensed version.
[2:43]And if you want the longer version, go to Alice Hoffman.com and you'll see why I can't read it. I'll be like my whole episode.
[2:49]Alice Hoffman is the author of more than 30 works of fiction, including magic lessons, the prequel to practical magic, which just came out, which is what we're mostly talking about today.
[2:58]The world that we knew, the rules of magic, the marriage of opposites, practical magic, the red garden, the Oprah's book club selection here on earth, the museum of extraordinary things, and the dev keepers. She lives near Boston.
[3:10]Welcome Alice. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books. I feel like I should call you Mrs. Hoffman. I have like so much respect for you. I feel bad. Just call you Alice.
[3:18]And now please call me Alice. Well, I'm delighted to have you on my podcast. I was actually secretly thrilled when you followed me on Instagram. I was like, oh my gosh, I was off. It's following me. So anyway, it's a thrill. So welcome.
[3:32]Oh, my thanks for having me.
[3:34]And congratulations on your latest book magic lessons.
[3:38]At this point in your career, do you even get excited when a new book comes out? Like, what's it like when a new book comes out when you've already written so many books?
[3:45]I am more get anxious than I get excited because you know, you're with the book by yourself for so long.
[3:51]And then it goes out into the world and it's kind of like sending your kids to school or something like that.
[3:56]You know, you lose control and you don't know how people gonna like that kid of yours, you know?
[4:01]And so, you know, and then once it's out, then it's fine. But it's it's just more like those that, you know, the week before the week of the first being out there, it's anxiety provoking.
[4:12]To do, do you feel any better at this point? Are you like, oh my gosh? Okay. Yeah. I'm glad I caught you on the
[4:20]Would you mind just telling listeners a little more about magic lessons and why you chose to write a prequel to practical magic at this point?
[4:28]Yeah. Well, I wrote practical magic the original book 25 years ago.
[4:32]Right. I never intended to write any more about that family, but I kept getting notes and letters from readers that they really felt like it wasn't enough that they wanted to know more.
[4:41]But instead going forward in time, I'm more interested in going back in time. So the first thing I did was write a book called Rules of Magic, which took place in the 1960s, because that's kind of my era.
[4:52]And I was like a pleasure to write about it. And then what I thought about writing another book because I kept getting letters and I thought I really wanted to see how the family originated.
[5:01]I'm always interested in, I guess, there's a theory of like ghosts in the nursery, you know, those
[5:07]relatives that you've never even met that influence everything about you and your life. And I wanted to go backward in time and see who the the first owns woman was.
[5:17]Wow. And by the way, my husband and I listened to this. Well, we started listening to it in the car together and our last name is Owens. And when
[5:25]And so we started starting the narration and we were looking so like
[5:32]I have the recording is great. It's a foster who I'm. Yes, and she was in younger and she's just a great theater actress. And so it's a wonderful recording.
[5:43]I just had Pamela Redmond on my podcast to wrote younger. So it's like all coming from
[5:49]Yeah, it was an amazing recording and very captivating the drive flew by.
[5:54]So that's why you, but why write it now? Like why at this point? Like you could write any book, right?
[5:59]Like what's it like when you sit down and you're like, what's my next project going to be?
[6:02]How come you arrived at this today?
[6:05]You know, I don't know if I think about it that way because I have like a list of projects.
[6:09]Okay, things that I'm interested in doing, books that I think I'm going to write. So it was kind of sitting there.
[6:14]And I just thought I had a lot of fun writing rules of magic. And so I wanted to get back to that.
[6:19]I kind of wanted to escape. So I felt like this book could be an escape for me as a writer.
[6:24]And I think it is in some ways for readers. This is such a difficult time. And I felt like I wanted
[6:29]to go back to this other time and escape into magic and escape into this family. But as it
[6:34]turned out, a lot of things that had happened in the 17th century had a correlation to what is
[6:40]happening right now in terms of how women are treated and, you know, the idea of strong independent
[6:46]women being feared. And also I didn't realize it took place, you know, during and after the plague
[6:52]in England. And so as I was writing it, it was just very strange that the world seemed not that
[7:00]different. I was hoping my daughter study for an American history test last night. And I was
[7:05]reading through the things. And I was like, actually, this is very similar to the Black Lives Matter
[7:08]movement that's going on right now. I'm like, you know, they're protests like across the street.
[7:12]They're pro, this is what they did that. And anyway, it's funny how things sort of ebb and flow
[7:17]and cycles really do. It was it was really interesting to me. But also the whole idea of the
[7:22]Puritan mentality. I mean, the Puritans were the ones that started the witchcraft trials here,
[7:27]although they were with that trials all over Europe. And the idea that women were kind of at the
[7:33]root of all evil. It's kind of the idea of Eve bringing evil into the world. And it was really
[7:40]kind of shocking there. Their whole philosophy and a little bit scary because there's a little
[7:45]sum of that happening right now. Yeah, I was going to say that's not completely gone. I would
[7:50]think some people's, you know, imaginations or whatever you want to call it. And why do you think
[7:56]witchcraft? I understand what you're saying about women in general. But what is it about the
[8:01]sorcery, like the witchcraftiness of it? I mean, you have like lists of ingredients and what
[8:06]all of these things do, which you must have researched. I'm a symbiotic. Yeah. Right. So like,
[8:10]what is your fascination with it? I have always been fascinated with witches. I mean, I am
[8:15]I was a fairy tale fanatic as a kid because I felt at that point when I was a kid,
[8:20]I felt like it was the literature that spoke the truth in a very deep way, an emotional truth
[8:26]that other other children's literature didn't at that time. I still think it's the most
[8:32]deepest psychological literature, especially when you're a child. But I feel like witches,
[8:36]they are the senior, the only female mythic creature. You know, they're the only mythic
[8:43]creature with power. And I think that's why, you know, as a little girl, I always wanted to dress
[8:48]up as a witch. I always wanted to read about witches. I just felt like they had power. Well,
[8:53]there you go. It's funny because I never really thought of witches in such a positive way
[8:59]until this whole experience with you. Yeah. And I think the idea of midwives and healers,
[9:07]I mean, I think that's all kind of under the same label as witch, you know, women who
[9:13]do things are not supposed to do. And I thought it was so interesting that during the plague,
[9:19]that women who did herbal remedies had a bigger success rate than doctors, mostly because
[9:25]they washed their hands. And that was just kind of so interesting to me. That is interesting.
[9:30]It's something I try over and over to teach the kids, you know, because this is like of the moment,
[9:35]the most important thing. What about like, mediums today? Do you feel like they're in the same
[9:39]family as the witch or you think it's like witch adjacent or? Which is more mythic, more nature
[9:45]as much as do with like kind of green magic, nature, herbs, healing. I mean, that's how I kind of
[9:52]pursue that. But I have to say like in fairy tales, I can't remember the exact statistic,
[9:58]but something over and
[10:00]90% of the fairy tales have girl heroes,
[10:05]which is very unusual in folk tales or in any story,
[10:10]really, it's that in fairy tales,
[10:12]the girls are the ones that figure things out,
[10:14]the girls are the ones who are kind of at risk.
[10:16]And I always feel like they're cautionary tales.
[10:19]The stories your grandmother would tell you
[10:22]to be aware of certain things and to know certain things.
[10:26]Speaking of at risk, let's go back in time
[10:28]to your career trajectory here.
[10:30]First of all, can you just tell me a little more
[10:32]about how you got started?
[10:34]I mean, I know I've read about it,
[10:35]but if you could just tell me the story
[10:37]of how you're passionate for writing translated
[10:40]in such a unique way into becoming a writer.
[10:42]Well, you know, I never thought I'd be a writer.
[10:44]I was a reader.
[10:45]So I was a fanatical reader.
[10:47]And, but I was a secret writer
[10:49]as I think many people are, especially girls.
[10:51]So I had, you know, stories and notebooks
[10:53]that I never showed anyone.
[10:54]And then when I was about 16, for some reason,
[10:57]I wrote a story and I sent it to Esquire Magazine.
[11:00]I had never seen Esquire Magazine.
[11:02]I just heard of it.
[11:03]I, you know, I'd never read it.
[11:05]And I sent them a terrible story about the end of the world.
[11:08]I didn't use any capital letters.
[11:10]And I got back a handwritten note from somebody
[11:13]who said to me, you know,
[11:15]you should use capital letters and grammar.
[11:17]But also, if you have another story some time
[11:19]and you're not kidding around, send it to us.
[11:22]And I was in shock.
[11:24]It was kind of like this thing where suddenly
[11:26]I was in touch with the outside world.
[11:28]And someone at this mythical magazine
[11:32]thought I was a writer.
[11:33]So I think that stayed with me and I kept writing.
[11:36]You know, I never intended to go to college.
[11:38]I, you know, I lived in a very working class world.
[11:42]And I started going to college.
[11:44]I went to night school and then I applied to,
[11:47]my brother lived in California
[11:48]and said there was a really good school letter.
[11:50]I should apply and then I could move to California.
[11:52]And I've never heard of the school,
[11:53]but I applied and it was Stanford.
[11:55]And they gave me a fellowship.
[11:58]And I had a great mentor
[11:59]and it just totally changed my life.
[12:01]And I feel like sometimes you have this one teacher
[12:03]that just changes everything.
[12:05]And my teacher was Albert Girard
[12:07]and he sent my first story to City College
[12:10]to a magazine that they had called fiction.
[12:13]A friend of his was the editor.
[12:14]And it was published, which was a shock.
[12:16]I mean, there's no money involved.
[12:18]You know, I don't think we can write us
[12:20]to make money or anything back then.
[12:22]And after the story was published,
[12:24]I got a letter from a very famous editor named Ted Solitara
[12:27]and he said, do you have a novel?
[12:29]And I wrote back and I said, I do.
[12:31]And I started writing it that day really fast.
[12:34]And I think that's why I'm a fast writer
[12:35]because I just felt,
[12:37]I don't know if this guy's gonna keep his job
[12:39]or what's gonna happen,
[12:40]I better write this novel fast
[12:42]because no one's ever gonna ask me this again.
[12:45]Wow, so how long did that take you?
[12:47]Six months, but it was terrible.
[12:49]It was terrible, but he helped me with it.
[12:52]And in the end he didn't take it,
[12:53]but he sent it to my agent.
[12:54]And I feel like it was just, you know, it was luck,
[12:57]but also every time somebody opened the door,
[12:59]I walked through.
[13:00]And, you know, I didn't say, I don't know.
[13:02]I don't have a novel or it might take me two years.
[13:04]I just felt like this is my chance and I'm taking it.
[13:08]That's great.
[13:08]And you don't have the same agent, do you?
[13:10]Was my agent until she passed away?
[13:12]Oh, I'm sorry.
[13:14]Yeah, she was my agent for I think 40 years.
[13:18]I'm so sorry.
[13:19]I was really lucky.
[13:20]She was great.
[13:20]Her name was Elaine Marks and then she was amazing agent.
[13:23]I also noticed you started the Hoffman Center
[13:25]for breast cancer research.
[13:27]Is that right?
[13:28]So I just wanted to find out more about why you started that
[13:30]and what that whole initiative is about.
[13:32]Well, I'm a breast cancer survivor of 25 years.
[13:35]And when I was being treated at Manover in hospital,
[13:38]which is a Harvard teaching hospital,
[13:39]it was a small hospital, they didn't have a breast center.
[13:42]So while you were waiting for radiation,
[13:44]you'd be sitting next to someone who had broken his arm
[13:46]or once I said, ex to Gina, my wonderful dog groomer,
[13:50]it's just like there was no privacy.
[13:52]And I think when you're going through treatment for that,
[13:54]you need something special.
[13:56]So when I finished my treatment,
[13:58]I asked some of the doctors over there,
[14:00]you know, what could I do?
[14:01]And they said, let's start a center here.
[14:04]That's what you can do.
[14:04]So for 25 years almost, maybe it's more like 20 years,
[14:09]we've been doing an event every spring
[14:11]with right where writers come and read
[14:13]and we have had incredible writers.
[14:16]Everyone from Amy Tan to Celeste.
[14:19]Just so many amazing people who have given so generously
[14:24]of their time and created the state of the art
[14:27]breast cancer center.
[14:28]So I'm really proud of being involved with them.
[14:31]I want to get on the list.
[14:33]Put me on the list for the benefit.
[14:35]That sounds great.
[14:36]I'm obviously, we've discussed with my love of books,
[14:39]I'm sort of a sucker for hearing authors talk
[14:41]and I never seem to get tired of it,
[14:42]which is sort of shocking even to me.
[14:45]So it of course is important, a great cause
[14:48]is also wonderful.
[14:49]I don't know what we're doing this year
[14:51]because everything is different this year.
[14:53]Yeah, everything is different everywhere.
[14:55]And I'm beginning to think it's just never going back.
[14:57]I've given up, I've given up.
[15:00]Zoom is here to stay, don't you think?
[15:01]And I think I do.
[15:02]I can't understand, you know, certain things
[15:05]I think are not going back.
[15:07]It is nice not to have to move around as much throughout
[15:10]the world to see all these different people,
[15:11]which is nice, that's the only part.
[15:14]I felt.
[15:16]So a lot of your books have been adapted to movies,
[15:19]film TV, how does that process fit into your thinking
[15:23]when you're writing the book?
[15:24]Do you think it do visualize scenes at all movie-wise
[15:29]or do you not even, does it not even come into your consciousness?
[15:31]Well, you know, the truth is I was a screenwriter
[15:33]for 25 years, some with my own books,
[15:36]but mostly for other people's books.
[15:38]And I think I learned a lot from being a screenwriter
[15:42]and I learned a lot about telling a story.
[15:45]But when I'm writing, I don't think of it as a movie.
[15:48]I feel like it's something I'm living.
[15:50]No, but I feel like I'm in the book,
[15:52]I'm living it, I am the characters.
[15:54]So we don't really think of it as a movie,
[15:57]like would this make a good movie?
[15:59]That's not really the way I think about it.
[16:01]And I'm sorry, I did know that
[16:02]because you wrote Independence Day, right?
[16:04]Tell this video for that and yes.
[16:06]Anyway, I'm sorry.
[16:08]I have heard from other authors how critical a skill it is
[16:12]to be able to screenwrite and then turn to know.
[16:15]I feel like there's so many people who write fiction
[16:17]primarily and they're like,
[16:18]well, now I'm gonna try screenwriting,
[16:19]but I think there's something in the reverse
[16:21]that's very powerful.
[16:23]Well, I think it does teach you something about telling a story.
[16:27]And it's really different.
[16:29]It's really different.
[16:30]They're very different things.
[16:31]But I think that it teaches you
[16:34]to know what the heart of your story is
[16:37]because I think when you're writing a novel,
[16:38]it just happens to me, you can just really get lost
[16:42]and in these kind of offshoots and tangents,
[16:45]and sometimes they're really interesting,
[16:46]but basically with a screenplay,
[16:48]you're pretty much telling a straight-on story.
[16:50]And that's helpful, I think.
[16:53]And so which of your many projects
[16:55]are you gonna pick up next?
[16:56]Oh, well, I'm working on the fourth magic book.
[16:59]And I thought I was finished until I talked to my editor,
[17:02]but I'm not finished.
[17:05]So I have some more work on it,
[17:06]but that's been both really fun and really sad
[17:10]because I feel like it's the last book
[17:12]and it's the end of a 25-year relationship
[17:15]of the Owens family.
[17:16]And so it's been both things,
[17:19]but it's also been a great escape
[17:21]during this time that's such a terrible time.
[17:23]Which period of the world,
[17:25]like what timeline are you writing that book in?
[17:28]It's modern times.
[17:30]Oh, wow.
[17:32]How great.
[17:33]And you can have a whole box set.
[17:34]Sellage, you know, I mean,
[17:37]that's not all published by the same publisher.
[17:39]So.
[17:40]Oh, so you can't do that?
[17:41]I can't do that.
[17:42]Oh.
[17:43]All of them, yeah.
[17:44]All right.
[17:45]Well, that's okay.
[17:46]You can make your own.
[17:47]That's a good idea.
[17:50]I'll get bags.
[17:51]I don't know.
[17:52]What advice do you have to aspiring authors?
[17:54]Well, you know, I mean, I really think
[17:56]the best advice is to do it every day.
[17:58]And I used to, my life is like a little complicated right now,
[18:02]but I always would get up really early,
[18:05]before anybody else was awake,
[18:06]before the phone's ringing,
[18:08]and work for like at least two hours
[18:10]so that you get that two hours in.
[18:11]So if you get up at 5.30 and start working from six and six
[18:15]or whatever time it is for me,
[18:16]that always was really helpful.
[18:18]And when I had other jobs,
[18:19]I'd get up, you know, before that other job and write then.
[18:22]I feel like if you write every day,
[18:24]it's not so hard to go back to it.
[18:26]And if for me, I always feel like if I stop writing,
[18:28]I'm never going to be able to remember how to do it again.
[18:32]So that's my tip is that, you know,
[18:34]you have to write in order to write.
[18:36]It's so funny that you've been such a,
[18:39]like establish literary figure
[18:41]and you still are afraid that if you like take too long
[18:43]of a occasion, you'll lose it.
[18:45]I know that I'm going to lose it.
[18:47]And every time I start a book,
[18:48]I feel like I don't know who wrote the other books.
[18:51]I don't know how they did it.
[18:52]I don't know how to do it.
[18:54]I have to like relearn how do you write a book.
[18:56]And how do you do it?
[18:59]Do you just, do you get it all out?
[19:00]Like do you ever outline your stories?
[19:02]Or do you just...
[19:03]Yeah, outline, I make a lot of notes.
[19:05]I do a lot of kind of, what's fun for me
[19:07]is like world building, you know,
[19:09]I write down lists of plants and, you know,
[19:12]list of places and if I'm, you know,
[19:14]writing about the 60s in New York, you know,
[19:15]all the different music clubs
[19:17]and all the different bookstores that were there.
[19:19]And, you know, just starting to build the world
[19:21]for the characters to move in.
[19:23]Wow, that's beautiful.
[19:24]I mean, it's amazing that there's a job
[19:27]that allows you to just recreate the universe
[19:30]in which you live every time you open your laptop.
[19:33]Right?
[19:34]It's just so...
[19:35]Yeah.
[19:36]It's a good job.
[19:37]But you know, it's kind of like what you do as a reader
[19:39]is that you leave this world behind
[19:41]and you go into a book and, you know, you escape.
[19:45]And I feel like it's the same thing when you're writing.
[19:47]It's like you're creating this other world,
[19:50]you know, using things that you knew, you know,
[19:52]who you are and how you see the world.
[19:53]But it's just creating something brand new.
[19:56]And I know the world has changed so much
[19:58]from when you first went to...
[20:00]to Stanford until now. Is there anything that you miss from the way the publishing industry
[20:05]used to work? Is there anything you long for?
[20:08]Well, when I started, like, nobody talked about getting published. Nobody talked about money.
[20:14]It was kind of right after, like, kind of a Ken Keezy era. You know, it was like,
[20:19]yes, you want to write a perfect story or something like that. But you didn't think about
[20:23]what they were in a book tour, except for people like Norman Mail or something like that.
[20:27]you know, there were no book tours. And it wasn't about kind of the outside things that
[20:32]was about the inside, about wanting to be a writer, wanting to tell a story. And I think there's
[20:38]a lot more pressure on people right now. I think it's harder to get published. You know,
[20:43]the publishing houses are conglomerates and they were a lot more publishing houses. And
[20:48]but now there are also different options about publishing in different ways online or with small
[20:53]presses. So I don't know. I kind of missed that, that freedom to just kind of do whatever you
[20:59]wanted to. And it was about what you wanted to write, not about what's published at all. And I
[21:05]think now for people starting out, they have to think about both things.
[21:08]That's true. It's sort of the commercialization of even fiction writing.
[21:15]But I often hear that the best advice is to ignore all of that as I'm sure you would agree and
[21:21]just do what's fun for you and what you need to write or else you can kind of tell when there's
[21:25]no passion in it, right? Absolutely. I mean, you have to have passion. But I think if you wanted to
[21:30]be published, you also it also can't be like a diary. Well, right. Yeah. I mean, I always feel
[21:35]like I'm writing for myself and I'm writing the book for myself. But then it has to be able to
[21:40]all somebody else has to read it and have it mean what it means to them. And is there anything
[21:44]any innovations that you've particularly adapted well to that you're like, I love X, Y, or Z?
[21:50]I don't even know why I'm asking you these questions. I'm just curious.
[21:54]I love Google because if like I don't know what year something happened and I'm in the middle
[21:58]of writing, it's like I don't have to like go through all my books. I can just like find out what year,
[22:03]you know, the same, which trials ended, you know, it just real quick, you know, it's kind of,
[22:08]it's very helpful. Also, it just took some, you know, when I started people were typing and it
[22:13]took a long time, every time you rewrote, you know, you rewrote the home manuscript really. I think
[22:19]it was kind of good practice actually, but it was just as time consuming. I am old enough that I
[22:24]used to use a typewriter for my school assignments. And have my mother like, you know,
[22:30]help me and have to restart in the white out and oh my gosh, yeah. I'm like, the idea that you can
[22:38]even produce as clear a thought when there's so much on the line, right? We have to start over again.
[22:44]As opposed to now, it's like, I'll change that, right? I don't know.
[22:47]I actually think that's good for writers and I tend to still do that. Like, when you start at the
[22:53]beginning again, instead of just moving things around the way we can do now, it gives a different
[22:57]rhythm, I think. I don't know, it makes for a different kind of revision. I mean, I think sometimes
[23:03]when I talk to, I'm involved in a program for young writers at a Delphi University
[23:07]out on Long Island every summer. And sometimes I think, you know, they really think that writer's
[23:12]just write it down and that's it. And that's not it at all. I mean, most people have to do lots
[23:18]of revisions and lots of changes. And I think that's just a good thing to know when you're starting
[23:23]out that everybody does it. Yes. Wait for those comments in Google Docs and then everything,
[23:31]you know, meld together. Your love of Google. There you go. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for
[23:36]chatting with me today. I'm sorry. I had random questions, but I was really curious about sort
[23:40]of like the lifespan of being an author for so many different like periods of time and as the
[23:47]industry has changed and you stayed just as current. It's truly awesome. So I don't know,
[23:52]it was a unique vantage point. So thanks. Thanks for chatting with me today. All right. Thank you.
[23:57]All right. We'll have a great day. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye.
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