Christie Tate, GROUP
[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:13]Please sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com for weekly updates about my podcasts, events, and more.
[0:20]Also, follow me on Instagram at zibiowens and also at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:26]And finally, join my virtual book club called Zibi's virtual book club, which meets every other Tuesday at 2 p.m.
[0:32]Eastern Time until 3 p.m. and features half an hour of book club discussion, followed by 30 minutes of Q&A with the author whose book we've just discussed.
[0:41]You can sign up on my website zibiowens.com under the virtual book club section or even on Instagram, under the link in my bio.
[0:49]I hope you'll find me in all these different channels and enjoy this podcast.
[0:53]Today's episode has been sponsored by SugarWish.
[0:56]SugarWish is an online gifting site that provides a delightful gift experience followed by delicious treats.
[1:02]They get to choose delivered directly to their dorm.
[1:05]Here's how it works.
[1:06]A SugarWish can be sent to anybody.
[1:09]So if you're the recipient, you open up an email and it says someone is sent you a SugarWish
[1:13]and you open it up, you click and it says pick any four of these delicious candies to fill your basket.
[1:19]So you get to look through everything from gummy worms and M&Ms and skittles and jellybeans and everything.
[1:26]And you click and then check out and it's sent to you in this beautiful box with all these candies inside and a ribbon.
[1:34]And it's just beautifully packaged and sent right to your door.
[1:38]And so somebody basically you get to customize your own gift and it's really awesome.
[1:42]And I did this and I sent them to my son at boarding school and we got some here for Halloween.
[1:47]And I highly, highly recommend this company.
[1:51]Definitely go check it out, sugarwish.com.
[1:54]Christy O. Tate is a Chicago-based writer and essayist.
[1:58]Her work has been published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune,
[2:03]Pithead Chapel, McSweeney's Motherwell, entropy magazine, a perfect wedding together.
[2:08]com, Brainchild and others.
[2:10]Her current book, which I loved, is called Group.
[2:14]And the subtitle is how one therapist and a circle of strangers saved my life.
[2:19]Welcome, Christy.
[2:20]Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:23]Thank you for having me.
[2:24]I'm so excited.
[2:25]I am so excited to finally be talking to you because I got this book in the middle or towards the end of the summer, I guess.
[2:30]And I opened it up and I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover or anything.
[2:34]But I opened this book up this summer.
[2:36]And these are my favorite colors.
[2:38]And this is my favorite design.
[2:39]And this wins my like favorite cover ever award just in case you were wondering.
[2:44]Thank you.
[2:45]I feel super lucky.
[2:46]That was one of the first designs.
[2:47]And I thought this is exceeded all expectations.
[2:50]So I love that blue.
[2:52]Amazing.
[2:53]Yeah.
[2:54]My favorite color.
[2:55]So could you please.
[2:56]I know your subtitle is how one therapist and a circle of strangers saved my life.
[3:00]But could you explain a little more in depth to listeners what group is about?
[3:04]Sure.
[3:05]So the book opens and I had just completed my first year of law school.
[3:10]And I'd gone to the Burser's office and I got a little index card that told me my class rank was first.
[3:17]and I didn't feel any joy.
[3:19]I felt really, really depressed.
[3:22]And I started having suicidal thoughts because my life looked really great on paper.
[3:28]And obviously my professional future was going to be fine, better than fine.
[3:33]But inside, I just was so lonely.
[3:36]And I didn't even have that word yet.
[3:38]I had to go to therapy to learn that word.
[3:40]But I was isolated.
[3:42]I had no post friends.
[3:45]I'd watch people from college go on girls trips.
[3:48]And I'd be like, how do they do that?
[3:50]And people would reach out to me and I didn't know how to reach back.
[3:53]And so I thought, well, this is great.
[3:55]I'm just going to die alone.
[3:57]So a friend recommended her therapist.
[3:59]And I was on a student budget.
[4:01]So I was like, I can't do therapy.
[4:03]And she was like, well, it's group.
[4:05]And so it's cheap.
[4:06]And so I was like, OK.
[4:08]And I could see something different in her eyes.
[4:11]And so it's the memoir is the story of how I went to group.
[4:15]And my life was cracked open by the people I met there.
[4:19]And the therapist who sort of is the ringleader of all of it.
[4:23]Wow.
[4:24]I loved your descriptions of well, not only the other people in the group,
[4:27]but Dr. Rosen and how actually you had met him.
[4:30]So you have been intense at 12 step programs for eating disorders for quite some time.
[4:34]And in one of your meetings, you had actually had him come.
[4:37]But he was Jonathan R.
[4:38]and the group.
[4:39]What was, what did that feel like?
[4:41]Well, it was terrifying.
[4:43]Because when he opened the door, I was like, is that the same guy?
[4:48]And then because between the time I made the appointment and then sat in the waiting room and then he opened the door,
[4:54]I decided this is it.
[4:55]This is the one thing that will save my life.
[4:58]And I had my heart set on it.
[5:00]And then he opened the door and I'm like, oh, I know him from 12 step world.
[5:04]And I thought that would be an automatic disqualification.
[5:07]So I'm like, well, I won't tell him.
[5:10]And I was like, why would you recognize me?
[5:12]There's tons of women and people in these meetings.
[5:15]And he didn't recognize me after the first session.
[5:18]But then I started to feel like, well, someday he might, it might trigger him.
[5:22]And then he'd have to kick me out.
[5:23]And that would be so embarrassing.
[5:25]So it became like one of the first like tests.
[5:28]So can I tell the truth?
[5:30]Can I, can I risk rejection by saying what I know?
[5:35]Which is, I know you from meetings.
[5:37]It seems like you're not supposed to know that about your therapist.
[5:40]And this goes back to like Lori Gottlieb Smith.
[5:43]You know that now she talked in the beginning of that book as a therapist of running into a patient at the Starbucks and having,
[5:50]you know, she was a mess and that forever altered her relationship with her patient.
[5:55]And now we go to your book where it's sort of similar where you have this in, you know,
[5:59]view into your therapist that most people do not have.
[6:02]I don't know.
[6:04]Yeah, I don't know how to.
[6:06]I obviously only know what it transpired for me.
[6:09]But the idea of the blank slate is not quite as blank in my case.
[6:14]I suppose traditionally.
[6:16]I could so relate to the times in your book where in therapy, you were asked to do or say something.
[6:23]And you were just so uncomfortable that I could like feel you cringing off these pages.
[6:28]Like you were like, no, no, no, I'm not doing that.
[6:31]And they were like, I actually can't even say it on this podcast, but they were suggesting that you do.
[6:35]But you're like, I could never because part of the work was opening you up to love and not just totally bad for you guys.
[6:45]Yeah.
[6:46]Yeah.
[6:47]And I think that that part of what drove me in was the I was bereft of all relationships, but it was particularly salient in my relationships with men.
[6:57]I penned it for to fall for guys who were alcoholic or had very serious depression and didn't have the ability to be in a relationship and find out I didn't either, but I could just focus on them and say, why don't you love me.
[7:12]I bought you pineapple, you know,
[7:15]the reliable pineapple love trick that we all we all rely on so much.
[7:20]You know, it's very standard.
[7:22]Very standard.
[7:23]My question about groups therapy, by the way, because I've never actually been in group therapy, but have been in regular therapy.
[7:29]Do you ever get a diagnosis?
[7:31]Like, does that I mean, I know you had three sessions at the beginning, but does everybody get like a pull aside.
[7:37]Let's go in the corner PSU of OCD or something like that.
[7:40]That is such a great question.
[7:42]And I, I think so how I've seen this play out for me and my groups is people have brought in insurance forms and you have to put in a code in order to get reimbursed.
[7:54]And so everything that is negotiated happens in group.
[7:58]So if I had, I saw many people come in and say, I need your signature doctor Rosen on my insurance form that they want to code and they say to him, like, what do I have?
[8:08]Like, what am I?
[8:10]And, you know, we would have long discussions like anxiety and depression is a certain code or whatever.
[8:15]And I remember I always paid out of pocket because I was, this is terrible.
[8:21]This is like not a part of the book, but I'm very, very afraid of forms.
[8:24]And so I just felt like it was easier.
[8:26]I had just always knew I'd have to earn enough money to go to group because I'm so afraid of forms.
[8:31]Anyway, so I remember one time I said, this was probably year two.
[8:35]And I said, what, what do I have?
[8:37]Do I have PTSD?
[8:38]Do I have anxiety or depression?
[8:40]And doctor Rosen said, well, why do you want to know?
[8:43]And I was like, well, what's wrong with me?
[8:46]What's, what's my thing?
[8:47]What's my label, right?
[8:48]I knew I had an eating disorder, but that was before I even got there.
[8:51]And he really discouraged me.
[8:53]I didn't press it super hard because as soon as he said, why do you want to know?
[8:58]I realized my motives weren't good for me.
[9:02]I wanted to know something I could be in that box and then I could like go off and do a checklist and a magazine.
[9:08]And I have not pressed it and I'm not asked for my notes, but I can imagine a scenario where somebody had a reason.
[9:16]And if somebody had a needed to know or wanted to know, it would be disgusting group and they could get that information, but it's hard to get information and group about a full discussion, which is something you have to weigh if you really want to go there.
[9:29]Wow.
[9:30]Well, I was just could not believe all the stuff that came out in your group.
[9:34]And even your unexpected moments with individual members of the group and how those just you were like, wow, I'm not alone anymore.
[9:42]And you know, it was just so sweet and like heart warming in a way. I don't know.
[9:48]Which is not your, I mean, not that this.
[9:51]That's probably mischaracterizing this book, which is very emotional and but it's so funny too. And I don't know.
[9:58]Well, it's fun.
[10:00]like sessions themselves can be very brutal and that would be my lived experience like someone
[10:06]confronting me on things I don't want to talk about or that are painful or or or I start
[10:13]to talk about it and then I misunderstood that experience is so painful and that's some of the
[10:19]work of intimacy that I had just never done. I never I was really immature in that way and that's
[10:25]why I was so alone but when I look back and some of the quieter moments with individual group
[10:30]members in group and outside they were so filled with like love and care and I had just been
[10:37]running from people for so long that I couldn't I didn't know that people might just like rub
[10:42]your back if you're crying or hand you the tissues or offer to come get you I just I had kept myself
[10:49]so isolated that those acts of kindness couldn't even penetrate my defenses essentially.
[10:54]When I met my current husband by the way and we were like walking down to the tennis court and I
[10:59]was upset about something that happened with my daughter that day I didn't know him that well
[11:03]and I wasn't looking for a relationship but he put his hand on my back and was like are you okay
[11:08]and I married him. I married him. Yes, I married him. So I'm just I get the power of those little
[11:16]connections when you feel like you haven't had them in so long and you so need them and I don't
[11:21]know. He's probably like what am I even doing here. So big mistake anyway. But the part of your book
[11:30]during the accident on the beach in Hawaii was first of all so well written and just like
[11:35]edge of my seat type of reading which is always wonderful as a reader but I'm so sorry for what
[11:40]happened. Are you able to share now or do you want to like keep it quiet or whatever? Yeah I think
[11:45]probably sharing is probably helpful. I feel like that experience like I was so young. It was
[11:53]right before my 14th birthday and it was such an amazing I mean I was from a very modest family
[12:00]in Texas and we weren't going to be going to Hawaii you know and I had there was a friend of mine
[12:06]and her family had been so welcoming and so loving to me and we went to Hawaii and while we were there
[12:14]her father drowned in the water of the ocean and I really like for years I just didn't talk about it
[12:23]and but I thought about it. It's not like I thought about all the time but like right around the
[12:27]anniversary time I get really emotional and kind of a panicky feeling and I felt like I was never
[12:33]allowed to talk about it because it was a long time ago. I mean I remember saying that was a long
[12:39]time ago and it had been eight years you know and so each year I had an excuse not to it wasn't
[12:45]my dad. I think I had the overriding feeling that well I got to go home to my family in Texas and my
[12:53]dad and mom were alive and we were all well and so I felt like well that's not really my it's almost
[12:59]like it that didn't happen to me because it wasn't my father and so that's some of the early work
[13:04]I had to do in group to see what the cost was of disavowing the trauma for me and how how that might
[13:13]have impacted my ability to attach you know I was like really I was so out there like I'm a recovering
[13:19]bulimic and I had all these I had stories I was willing to tell about myself and there were these
[13:24]quiet ones that I felt buttoned down about and they were I think they were obviously tripping me up
[13:30]in relationship before the accent on the beach or the drowning were you able to be more open with
[13:37]people like do you feel like I know it's such a an important age right where things would have
[13:43]developed and then didn't but like as a child were you very withdrawn in terms of how you were
[13:49]talking to people or did anyone notice a shift in you like did your family or anybody yeah that's
[13:55]a great question I think I mean before Hawaii I was there was already I mean I'm pretty outgoing
[14:01]and extroverted and I did always have friends I think I from a very young age I had a lot of shame
[14:08]shame about my body I remember that by age five I wasn't actively believing until I would write
[14:14]before Hawaii actually so I think I think timing really matters like the woman that I went
[14:20]she was a girl at the time the family that I went with she and I tried out for cheerleader
[14:25]the summer or the winter before we done skiing and she's lively and hilarious and I was there
[14:32]and I remember like this is not even if I can't quite remember who I was I know who she was and she
[14:38]wouldn't have picked some morose like bump on a lot like I remember us laughing I have like
[14:44]snapshot memories of us laughing and I was kind of a good student but I was also kind of like a
[14:50]wise cracker as you can maybe imagine from the book and I was kind of like the I had an irreverent
[14:56]sense of humor that seemed maybe a little more male than female but at the time the way the Texas
[15:01]is coated so I think that it was like the beginning of adolescence and the trauma and probably even
[15:08]without that I was gearing up for just regular adolescence strife and then I think you add in that
[15:15]I think it's sort of like bumped me off the road for quite a while and you say you know it wasn't
[15:20]your dad but it's not like you were in the hotel and you found out he drowned I mean you were
[15:25]on the beach and saw him and had to pull him on the beach and get help and you yourself at almost
[15:29]round a second ago I mean that is hardcore I mean I have not I've had you know everybody's had stuff
[15:36]in their life but most people have not had to pull a drowning grown man out of the what I mean that's
[15:41]a lot to hold onto and not talk about and to not feel like you have permission to cope with it
[15:47]is a lot yeah you know it's funny I'm sure a lot of people have this experience but
[15:53]now that I have a daughter who is she's not that old yet but as I imagine like packing her off
[15:59]to go on a trip with another family and imagine getting the phone call that my parents got and
[16:05]I just it's now I have much more compassion for myself and carrying that burden and I thought
[16:12]like I had the insane idea that it was I could have prevented it or I should have or
[16:19]that is a lot for a kid to carry and I can see that now that I have kids approaching that age I'm
[16:25]like whoa wow I would have done that I'm glad I got the help I needed let's say that by the way
[16:32]do people still go on vacations with other families because my kids I don't like nobody I know
[16:37]kind of does that anymore maybe families go together but like the idea of like sending my kid off on
[16:42]someone else's vacation yeah I mean it's just like yeah used to happen all the time I brought kids
[16:47]all the time I went on other I mean it's like yeah that's a really funny question like I don't know
[16:52]of any the only instances where I know that like in our community is there we know some kids who
[16:58]were only children and so they may double up for obvious reasons but you know it's not it's not
[17:05]nearly as prevalent as it was when I was growing up in the 80s you know yeah me too I was like
[17:10]like who's coming on vacation with us each of you take a friend you know yeah yeah bring a friend
[17:15]thing it's like I would take friends to the exotic location of forest in pexas where my grandparents
[17:21]had a farm and it was like super fun and I would take all kinds of friends there and like now I just
[17:27]like it's funny that's an interesting marker of change and generations yeah I don't know I mean
[17:33]and the idea that I would just like not spend my vacation with my child
[17:37]do I mean I like I'm fighting my exesment about like how many days of the vacation can we have
[17:42]and to be like I don't know let's just send her with like the Joneses over there I don't know
[17:49]it's so funny not that there's anything bad in it I just used to happen all the time but yeah
[17:53]oh well so tell me about the act of writing this book so you you sort of alternate between being
[18:01]private and not private right like some of these things you held close to home some you feel
[18:05]okay with but now you've like let it all out yeah you know it's I when I started the book I did
[18:13]a first draft I started the book on November the 9th of 2015 and I remember the date because I
[18:20]I just did some research about it I was like how long have I been living with this book and at first I
[18:24]was you know the first draft first drafts are terrible right and it was just like antidote like
[18:29]they have my therapist said this and then I dated this guy and it didn't have any like art
[18:35]or some of the heart and no specificity like there was no scene of me binging on apples I was very
[18:41]light about the Hawaii situation it's just pretty superficial and I got feedback that it was
[18:49]superficial and I needed a big deeper and I didn't know how I didn't know how to revise a novel
[18:55]I mean it's not a novel I did not a revise a whole book links and I ended up in a situation where
[19:01]the writer Lydia you can a bitch she does a class called Body of the Book and you can workshop
[19:06]in a small group the first 130 pages of your work and I thought oh I'll do that and then they
[19:12]can tell me what's missing or what's what am I doing and it was incredibly transformative because
[19:19]they were able to both Lydia and my workshop mates who were incredible they would circle something
[19:25]like I said oh I vaguely made a comment like oh I binge on apples at night and then I moved on
[19:30]very quickly and everybody circled it like in bed pin like show us and I was like show you like
[19:37]every apple it felt to me like that would be tedious and once I went in there all the places where
[19:44]they said give us a scene I started building scenes and I think that's where a new energy
[19:51]this sort of came to life instead of just being I mean telling I was showing what I was like
[19:57]what happened and what I'm like
[20:00]now because of this process.
[20:01]Well, so in terms of like the law career and where you are today,
[20:06]now, of course, you're an author, which is amazing.
[20:09]Yeah.
[20:09]What is like your daily life?
[20:11]Like, tell me about like your daughter.
[20:13]And no, I mean it.
[20:14]Like, because now I feel so invested in you with the book.
[20:17]I feel so I feel really lucky.
[20:21]The great thing about like talking about the book now or having it out in the world is
[20:26]every day I feel grateful.
[20:28]Every day I talk about the book, I touch back to that woman who was first in her class.
[20:33]And I clung to that because it's like all I had.
[20:36]And now it's so obnoxious to be like, what is the valedictorian?
[20:40]But it's like literally it was like the only tent pole I had.
[20:43]And so when I look back, I get to think about who's in my life today.
[20:48]You know, I have two children, I have a husband, it's Corona time.
[20:52]So we're all home doing our things in our little corners of the world.
[20:56]And I still go to group.
[20:57]And so in the mornings, my writing time and I still work full time.
[21:01]So that's that.
[21:02]So I really, really committed.
[21:04]I get up really early in the fives and I do writing.
[21:08]I also do meditation just because I don't know how to survive things that are happening in
[21:13]the wider world without a little bit of meditation, do the writing until the people wake up
[21:18]around me.
[21:19]I get them going.
[21:20]I do my day job during lunch.
[21:22]I do more writing.
[21:24]That's when I meet with a writing group.
[21:26]And then twice a week, I zoom into my therapy group.
[21:29]And you know, as you can, if what readers will see is like the
[21:33]members of my group and I are very close.
[21:35]And so I'll go on a walk with someone from group or we'll meet for a socially distant copy.
[21:41]And so it's a really full experience.
[21:45]And the other day, I was complaining to one of the characters in the book, Max.
[21:50]You know, this is like a super obnoxious thing.
[21:52]I'm so busy.
[21:53]I've so much going on.
[21:54]And he first faced everyone's does to get over yourself.
[21:58]And also he'll say to me, whenever I complain, I'll say, this is the life you wanted, remember?
[22:03]And I'm like, oh, yeah.
[22:04]Like, driving my son to the baseball field or getting my daughter to her outdoor dance class.
[22:11]It's like, this is exactly what I wanted in my minivan and my family.
[22:17]And all these people and phone calls to return to people who love me and who might want to
[22:23]who want to fill me in.
[22:24]Like, that is exactly what I wanted.
[22:27]And it's like anybody who has a full life.
[22:29]It's kind of like, what played am I going to drop today, but it's a privilege to have plates.
[22:34]It's a privilege to have plates.
[22:36]I love it.
[22:37]It's so true.
[22:38]In terms of advice to other people who might want to write a memoir, what would you say?
[22:43]I would say read, read, read, read the memoirs you love.
[22:48]Read them again.
[22:49]Recently, this this is like super advice I'm taking myself right now, which is I've reread
[22:55]some memoirs that I really love, particularly clear theaters, love and trouble and geese,
[23:01]layman's, heavy.
[23:03]Every year, I read Lydia Yuknovich's chronology of water because I love those books and their
[23:09]artists and I want to get inside of what they're doing.
[23:12]And I think that the idea that like the only part of writing a book is sitting down and writing
[23:18]has not been my experience.
[23:20]So I would say weaving widely also like joint a writing group.
[23:25]Like I get together, we were all long distance my writing group.
[23:29]We've been together almost three or four years.
[23:32]We all live across the country.
[23:33]We were telephonic because this is before everything went zoom.
[23:37]So now we've got on zoom, but it's free.
[23:40]I mean, you'd have to make the time for it.
[23:42]But I learned so much from the women in the way that they push themselves and some of them are
[23:50]novelists, some of them are essays, some of them are memoirists.
[23:53]And having the community is invaluable.
[23:56]Learning from them, getting that every two week feedback on my writing, I still get like they're
[24:02]we're going to talk about one of my pieces this afternoon.
[24:04]I still get nervous like even though it's a first draft and it doesn't need to be great.
[24:09]But just the exercise of putting myself out there, I think that's really invaluable.
[24:14]And for years, I wanted a writing group and I didn't know how to get one.
[24:19]And what worked for me was I took a couple classes.
[24:22]And then I would ask people in the classes like can we, it doesn't have to be
[24:28]giant. It could be one other person.
[24:30]I just think having company and feedback is really invaluable.
[24:34]I don't know how people do it without it.
[24:37]It's great advice.
[24:38]And so what are you working on now?
[24:39]What's your piece for today?
[24:43]Well, I was trying to write a piece about one of the things that I'm interested in
[24:48]is what's happening to my body right now.
[24:51]It feels like, well, there's middle age of course, there's anxiety, there's, you know,
[24:56]upcoming elections and book publications.
[24:59]I've been having this totally random trapezius pain.
[25:02]And I didn't even know what the trapezius was still like at the pain.
[25:06]And so I'm writing about what the different, the sensation and what the trapezius means,
[25:13]like in other, like in some, you know, like in Woo Woo Eastern medicine,
[25:18]the trapezius is the, it's the heart of the back or whatever.
[25:22]So I'm just exploring what that pain means.
[25:25]And I think when it started was when I went to record the audiobook,
[25:30]I was sitting there and I was reading a scene.
[25:34]It was painful when it happened.
[25:36]Painful when I wrote it.
[25:38]It was like one of these groups that was very intense.
[25:40]And I'm alone in the booth.
[25:42]And there's this old engineer and I'm talking about my sort of problematic sex life.
[25:47]I'm like sweating.
[25:49]I'm sweating.
[25:50]I'm alone with this man.
[25:51]I'm reading it into the world.
[25:53]And my shoulder or my trapezius is like instantly crimped.
[25:57]And like, I've had enough therapy to know that those are all related.
[26:01]And I think I'm interested in thinking about what part of me is still afraid to have
[26:08]that my story out there, my truth, my experiences to get bigger in the world.
[26:14]And I think my body is registering my anxiety.
[26:17]And it's right now showing up in my trapezius.
[26:19]So we'll see what they think about if they got any of that in the 2000 words I gave them.
[26:24]But I think that's so interesting.
[26:27]We'll see.
[26:28]I love it.
[26:29]Yeah.
[26:29]I feel like new aches and pains come every day.
[26:31]And I'm like, really, I'm only in my 40s.
[26:33]Like I thought this was like a 60s, 70s situation.
[26:36]Totally.
[26:37]It's so humbling.
[26:38]So humbling.
[26:39]Yeah.
[26:39]Yeah.
[26:41]Well, thank you.
[26:42]Thanks, Christy.
[26:43]I loved this book.
[26:44]I'm so excited.
[26:44]You came on the show.
[26:46]I can't wait to see it come out into the world.
[26:47]I'm just so rooting for you and your corner and all that.
[26:50]Thank you so much.
[26:51]Thanks for all you do for writers and readers and listeners.
[26:54]It's incredible.
[26:55]It's such a bright light.
[26:56]You are a bright light.
[26:58]And I'm so happy to be here.
[27:00]Oh, thank you so much.
[27:02]Thank you.
[27:02]OK.
[27:03]Well, I want to say I want to read that essay, by the way.
[27:05]So it's another.
[27:06]I am serious.
[27:07]Send it over.
[27:08]I will, I will, I will, I will definitely will.
[27:10]OK.
[27:11]Yeah.
[27:11]We'll check it.
[27:12]And then I want to see it.
[27:12]Perfect.
[27:13]OK.
[27:14]See you.
[27:15]Bye.
[27:16]Thanks again to today's sponsor, SugarWish.
[27:20]Send a surprise SugarWish to somebody you love
[27:23]and check it out yourself, SugarWish.com.
[27:26]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[27:28]Have Time to Read Books.
[27:30]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zippy Owens,
[27:33]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:35]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[27:37]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:39]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:42]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[27:44]for the Sound Editing.
[27:45]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:47]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.