Lan Cao and Harlan Margaret Van Cao, FAMILY IN SIX TONES
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[2:15]OK, this was one of the funniest podcasts I've ever done, because I did it with a mother and daughter and kind of watch them as they were fighting and rolling
[2:23]as to each other and all the rest about their beautiful memoir.
[2:26]But it really spoke a lot to their communication.
[2:28]And I found it pretty hilarious, which I hope you will, too.
[2:31]You can also watch this on YouTube as you can on my episodes now.
[2:34]Anyway, it's called Family and Six Tones, a refugee mother and American daughter.
[2:38]And it's by Lauren Cow and her daughter, Harlan Margaret Van Cow.
[2:42]Lauren is the author of Monkey Bridge and the Lotus in the Storm.
[2:46]And most recently of the scholarly work, Culture in Law and Development, Nurturing Positive Change.
[2:51]She's a professor of law at the Chapman University Fowler School of Law and an internationally recognized expert specializing in international business and trade, international law and development.
[3:01]She has taught at Brooklyn Law School, Duke University School of Law, University of Michigan Law School, and William and Mary Law School.
[3:08]Her daughter, Harlan Margaret Van Cow, graduated from high school in June 2020 and is now attending UCLA, although as she tells us remotely and she's not happy about that.
[3:17]She was born in Williamsburg, Virginia and moved to Southern California when she was 10.
[3:21]Hi.
[3:22]Hi.
[3:23]It's so nice to be with Butterfield.
[3:25]Hi.
[3:26]I am.
[3:27]Oh, that's nice of you to say.
[3:29]Thank you.
[3:30]This is called Family and Six Tones.
[3:32]As you know, it is like, and I'm telling this to viewers, not just you, a refugee mother and an American daughter.
[3:38]And this was so beautifully written.
[3:41]Your words.
[3:42]You are.
[3:43]I mean, both of you are amazing writers, but, Lon, your writing is just, I mean, both.
[3:48]No, I feel like I'm being rude to you, Harlan.
[3:50]But anyway, your writing is so gorgeous.
[3:53]And I like kept, you know, I was searching in my bedside table for a pen so I could underline some of the things that you said.
[4:00]But anyway, why don't you guys tell listeners what this book is about and also what inspired you to even sit down and do this memoir and to do it together.
[4:10]So the publishing house actually approached us for it because they had heard an NPR interview that was released on the Ted offensive.
[4:21]That had actually been recorded years before, where I would ask her questions about her time and Vietnam.
[4:27]And by the time it came out, I was about 16, 15 and 16.
[4:32]So we had, she had a lot of connections that were in her first two books.
[4:36]contacted us and they said, you know, I think, you know, Harlan's of age now, maybe we could make this a coming of age book that also links to themes of immigration.
[4:46]So obviously, my mother, her first two books are greatly based on like the war.
[4:51]But to have two people, it's important to have both of us because I think it created more of like a gem or something like most people can relate to on some level.
[5:00]There's something totally separate because it's also about growing up under completely different circumstances, also how the immigration experience affects the family and how the family affects the next generation's life, I think.
[5:16]What was it like collaborating on this project together?
[5:20]It was, I wish I could say it was cathartic, but I think during the time we were going through it, it was very turbulent for us.
[5:29]Because, you know, it's hard to collaborate with another person, even if you're writing non personal stuff.
[5:38]Like, I do a lot of legal writing and many, many legal articles and only one was the collaboration.
[5:45]And, you know, it's hard because you take, you have to take the other person's point of view into consideration.
[5:51]But when it's something so personal and especially between a mother and daughter when sort of the wires are there that connect us, but they can also fray very easily.
[6:02]And electricity is conducted through the wire and sometimes it feels like the installation part of the wire somehow dissipated and we're just now, you know, frying each other.
[6:14]So, it was hard because we had to decide what to include, what not to include.
[6:19]And also, Harlan wanted to include things I didn't want to include and we had to come up with a compromise.
[6:24]And the reason why we came up with a compromise is because I felt like it's her first experience writing.
[6:30]I didn't want to silence her, even though she wanted to write about things that were hard for me to write about.
[6:37]So, in the end, everything that's on the page was a product of a back and forth.
[6:43]And we also didn't even write together.
[6:45]It was very hard, right Harlan?
[6:47]To write in the same space.
[6:49]We were totally separate and we only came together towards the end to read it.
[6:54]Because at first we read each others and it was explosive.
[6:59]Yeah, we only read each other's stuff at the end when we had to.
[7:03]Like it was a requirement.
[7:04]And I could tell that she came to me and she would tell me like, okay, it's time to read each other's stuff.
[7:10]And she seemed like scared to tell me.
[7:12]Because it was already difficult for me.
[7:15]I think at the time when I got the deal, the book deal, they wanted it to be greatly centered around my mom's like previous two books.
[7:23]Like the brand is about talking about the war.
[7:26]But I don't have a lot to say about it except for what it's done to my life.
[7:30]You know what I mean?
[7:31]Like I can't speak for everybody, but I don't want to sound entitled or anything.
[7:34]And I also had that mindset of like a teenager of like, well, I have so much more I want to say.
[7:38]So why can't I say that?
[7:40]So then when I agreed to direct it all toward a theme.
[7:43]And then on top of it she was nervous to write about certain stuff.
[7:47]It made me upset because I felt like I was in a box.
[7:50]Like I couldn't, there's only like one thing I could write about.
[7:53]And that's so hard to expand in an interesting way.
[7:56]Because I never imagined I'd be writing for like adults.
[7:59]You know, even though kids don't really read anymore, which is really sad, but it's hard.
[8:04]Because I'm thinking like, like probably women, I don't know.
[8:07]I'm not going to guess your age.
[8:08]It's so rude.
[8:09]But like, it's okay.
[8:10]It's okay.
[8:11]I admit it.
[8:12]I am fine.
[8:13]I am at least with my age.
[8:14]It's okay.
[8:15]Yeah.
[8:16]So it's like, everybody's right.
[8:18]And it's not any age that I expected I would ever write for when I was little, thinking I was a writer.
[8:23]So that definitely brought out like a lot of confusing things for me.
[8:26]So it wasn't just the writing process that made it hard to collaborate.
[8:29]And we were just totally different parts of our lives.
[8:32]I mean, I'm going through high school.
[8:34]Everything about us is different.
[8:35]I would write at two in the morning.
[8:37]She would write like throughout the day, little by little.
[8:39]So.
[8:40]Wow.
[8:41]Well, I mean, are you even speaking to each other?
[8:44]Like, like, I like intruded on like a family squabble.
[8:50]And I'm just like, like, like, there was a huge fight before the camera went on.
[8:54]And now you're pretending like everything's fine.
[8:56]Well, you don't have to pretend.
[8:58]But in quarantine.
[9:01]So we're stuck.
[9:02]She's doing her college online.
[9:04]So you can imagine it's all pretty eerie.
[9:08]Wow.
[9:09]And you're aren't you.
[9:10]You see a layer.
[9:11]Did I make that?
[9:12]Yes.
[9:13]You're not letting anybody go.
[9:14]No.
[9:15]It's actually very depressing for me because I picked you silly because of the cake.
[9:19]Like, you picked the school because of what it looks like.
[9:21]As you have like two options that are, you know, this is kind of the same.
[9:25]And like, like, you know, what it will do for you.
[9:28]I guess the campus was important to me.
[9:31]So I chose UCLA over Berkeley.
[9:33]But now Berkeley moves people in.
[9:35]So.
[9:36]Wow.
[9:37]That sucks.
[9:38]UCLA is in a beautiful part of LA.
[9:41]I love LA.
[9:42]You will have the best time.
[9:43]This time will pass.
[9:44]It's a bullet.
[9:45]You will get there.
[9:46]It was the right decision.
[9:48]Don't second guess.
[9:49]I took a writing class at UCLA right after I graduated from college.
[9:53]And my husband always makes fun of me when we drive by it because we spend a lot of time in LA now where he works.
[10:00]he used to work. Anyway, and every time we drive by, he's like, look, you're on the
[10:03]water. And I'm like, I did not go there. I did a lot of it class. I like read some essay
[10:07]about, I don't know, my first for all buying experience with my mother. And that does not make
[10:13]me an alum of there. But thank you. Anyway, well, I know it's a really tricky time for everybody.
[10:19]Do you really feel that was so sad to hear you say that nobody reads anymore? Do you really
[10:23]feel like none of your friends read? Not really. I mean, we like to get information very fast.
[10:29]A lot of kids nowadays it's insane. Have like ADHD and stuff. So I've from like the technology
[10:35]because I think like it'll bleed into one. Like it's been shown like phone to my cause like ADHD or
[10:39]something. So a lot of kids they don't have any time to span. They prefer like, I guess movies
[10:44]and short articles or like a lot of the news that we get now is on social media. And the social
[10:50]media page will like give it to as quickly as possible. Like five words. And then that's it.
[10:55]That's a little disheartening. Only time that we really do read a lot. I can't speak forever. I'm
[11:00]talking about like the people that I get it. I get it. Right. We will read if there's some like,
[11:04]remember the solar stars. For example, yeah, the movie came out right then I'm like, okay,
[11:09]I'll read it now because it's like trendy. So that's what I'm gonna read. I guess that's very
[11:13]disheartening and depressing for me because just because when I first arrived in this country,
[11:20]my only solace was books. And I just feel like, you know, that's why I want to harden. Let's
[11:26]say to love music because I feel like music and books are things that you can always turn to
[11:33]when other things that are not within your control are upside down. And because there will always
[11:40]be something you can't control that hurt you. It could be a person. It could be a wider event.
[11:46]And you can always go to that part. That is the music part, the book part. You can immerse yourself
[11:52]in a different world. So if you don't have that, you know, it just seems, but maybe they're different
[11:58]and they don't need that. But it just seems very different for me. That was my solace. And I was just
[12:03]hooked on things like a thousand and one Arabian Nights because it exposed me to this in shorts.
[12:11]And it's also like a form of traveling to, you know, completely agree, especially now,
[12:17]like especially like in the very beginning of the pandemic when we literally like
[12:20]can not leave our house at all for a week after week after week, I feel like, oh, well, look at
[12:24]this. Now I'm like having coffee in the glass of wine on a terrace in Tuskegee. And now I'm like,
[12:29]you know, here I am in China in this little apartment. And like, you know, I feel like books could
[12:33]take me everywhere. And I totally agree with you. No matter what you're going through, you can just
[12:38]open up a book and you're immediately somewhere else. It's like this empathy and escape. So that
[12:43]makes me sad. But I bet there's a way, well, now this will be my new mission of how to get,
[12:48]you know, because I mean, I also love social media. I mean, I'm like, you know, like I have to get
[12:52]myself a Instagram with like a hook, you know, but there has to be a way to keep that
[12:57]writerly escapist. Well, that's, it's just like the views of books. And I hope that that will
[13:03]work, you know, for the youngsters. Yes. Well, hopefully this podcast will change everything.
[13:07]You know, I mean, I do it. I try really hard. I mean, I hadn't been targeting, you know,
[13:12]young people necessarily, not that I'm so old, but I hadn't been my mission. It was more just to
[13:17]keep people reading who are already reading or who miss reading because life is so crazy. But I
[13:23]think books are so, I mean, I just think they're the coolest. And I think everybody should be
[13:27]doing it. But anyway, all right, well, I'll tackle that, you know, tomorrow.
[13:32]But back to your bug, because some of the stories in here, and Lauren, I just wanted to talk to you
[13:38]about being 13 and having to leave your country and coming over here just with like a family
[13:43]friend and finally realizing that you weren't going back and watching Saigon fall in 1975 and the whole
[13:50]thing and how you just kind of picked yourself back up. Like, how do you recover from something
[13:56]like that? How do you deal with that separation from family and home and homeland and and just like
[14:02]go about your business? Like, how does that work and how, and maybe this is your way, right?
[14:07]Still writing about it and everything. But tell me a little more about that.
[14:10]I think that my parents had two different approaches. My father was always telling me it's paradoxical
[14:18]what he said because there's the one statement has a paradox within it. Remember what's
[14:23]important and to get it immediately. So just don't focus on the past. And yet, I find that that
[14:30]is very hard thing for me to do because my mother was always dwelling on the past. And as I read
[14:38]more, you know, I hear things like Faulkner, like the past is never even past. It's not dead, it's
[14:43]not even past. So there's always the past and I don't think that one really recovers, you know,
[14:50]just like if you have a death in a family of somebody very close. It's not like, yes, you will move
[14:54]on. But it's not like that part is not forever inside of you. So the notion of losing something
[15:03]of having the rug be yanked out from under you because you never expect the certain things to happen.
[15:09]They were very spectacular. They took a very spectacular form for me because suddenly leaving the
[15:16]country and starting a new and high school was like half literally different. But I think it helps
[15:22]me to compartmentalize, like to just do this and this and this, but never really recovering because
[15:28]I know that I can be easily brought back. I feel sometimes when I'm walking my dog and I had a
[15:34]retractable leash and I feel like I am the dog and anybody actually can just press that button
[15:42]on that leash and it will bring me back, let's say, 275 or 68. Even though it looks like I'm farther
[15:49]away now and there's this leash that takes me farther away from that part but can be brought back
[15:56]very easily and it'll be startling for me because I would think to my, I had been thinking to
[16:02]myself I'm farther away from that now and how did I get back so easily to that vulnerable spot
[16:08]again? I never recovered. Just sort of, you know, move on to the next thing or doing the next thing
[16:16]but it's not really a recovery because I know when I'm, let's say even when I'm dealing with
[16:20]Harla, if I know that the way I parent her is very much based on that experience that I have not
[16:28]recovered from, right? That's a out pusher to always do well in school and maybe all parents do that
[16:35]but I think mine is more urgent and I feel very much like if she were to lose everything
[16:43]one thing that nobody can take away from you because it's inside you is your education, right?
[16:49]So yeah, you know, the fire can come and burn down your house, you can lose all of your
[16:53]possessions, you can lose everybody you love but if you have your education it is the foundation
[17:00]that is portable and it's not geographically anchored towards any place. So while education
[17:07]may be for other parents can be well this is, this is a way for you to move forward in life.
[17:13]Mine is, yes, of course but it also has this kind of, no one can take it from you feeling
[17:18]which I felt happened when, you know, our life was taken from us and we had to start a new one.
[17:25]So that in that sense I can see how the fact that I've never really recovered even affects something
[17:32]like the emphasis I place on certain things for her which can be very frustrating for her because
[17:39]she does not have that experience. How do you feel about that early? Well I've always been very conscious
[17:45]of well I think it's just because I really interested in psychology and people so when I was
[17:50]really little from a really young age I figured out that my mom parented because of her experience so
[17:55]it's like also you know it's very easy to call her like overbearing or you know like controlling
[18:03]which she is sometimes but it's hard to be angry about it because it comes from like a very
[18:09]innocent place. Like she doesn't mean to do that you know like no I mean I'm not saying any mom
[18:15]needs to come off as controlling but she literally can't help herself and I can tell like we'll
[18:21]have a conversation we're in an argument and we keep talking over each other. I'm like can you give
[18:26]me two minutes I'm just gonna say something and just be quiet and she's like sitting on her hands
[18:31]she can't even like stay still it's true but it's not, mom no no but you know like somebody is
[18:38]stating something like if they're gonna have two minutes of conversation and the piece that comes
[18:44]out that follows the first place that isn't true. Yeah so in other words it's true to me it's not
[18:50]true to her because she's so defensive so what I'm trying to get at is that in the past most of the time
[18:55]kids can like tell their parents like this upset me when you did this and you're like this hurt
[19:00]my feelings but with my mom she will she doesn't want to hear that in her my feelings because
[19:08]she's defensive and people who are defensive don't admit that they're defensive because that's
[19:12]like the first trait so it's like a thing that goes back and forth and I know she's not defensive
[19:17]because she sucks as a person like she's defensive because she's like her whole life has been about
[19:22]being on defense and even when I talk about her being offensive she doesn't want to hear it
[19:26]either but it's like totally true when you hear the conversation like it's a lot of the time an
[19:32]argument even about the book will start at something where because I don't really try to start
[19:38]the argument and good just being quiet the whole day because as the parent you know she wants to
[19:43]correct and make sure that I'm good when I leave the house officially and like start my own life
[19:48]so she'll start a conversation a lot of the time and even in that conversation I see like
[19:54]this psychology like her psychology and that's not to say like I'm so much better like I'm a kid
[20:00]Oh, so much.
[20:01]No, like that's not what I mean at all.
[20:02]Like, I mean, because we know each other pretty well,
[20:04]I think I can tell where each thing comes from.
[20:08]And I really want to help her.
[20:09]I started in therapy, actually, when I was like 15,
[20:13]from stuff that was going on in school.
[20:15]But when I was in therapy, you know,
[20:18]therapist job, you kind of love
[20:20]and you pay your therapist because they like open you up.
[20:24]They like pride you open.
[20:25]And it's very, it bothered me sometimes.
[20:27]Like I would tell her, she would tell me
[20:30]I'm seeing a pattern and this and that.
[20:32]And I'm like, well, you're obviously like
[20:34]spore keeping in a hostile way.
[20:36]And I took it as an attack.
[20:38]She was actually just pointing out that
[20:40]I'm just like my mom.
[20:42]And I didn't want to hear that
[20:44]because that's the worst thing possible.
[20:46]Even though she's right.
[20:47]You're that.
[20:48]I mean, you're mom might be.
[20:50]Nobody ever wants to hear that.
[20:52]Yeah, nobody wants to hear that.
[20:53]I don't know.
[20:54]So in part, it almost feels like you're fighting,
[20:57]like you have all these natural feelings
[21:00]about your relationship.
[21:01]And yet there's this like invisible thing you're fighting
[21:04]with also, right?
[21:05]You can't you understand it logically,
[21:07]but I feel like emotionally it's hard to to really digest.
[21:12]Like you know your mom had this experience,
[21:14]but still you're annoyed, right?
[21:17]Because I always felt like why can't she
[21:19]have the experience and leave me alone?
[21:22]Why can't you just, you know, we talk about it.
[21:24]We suffer through it together.
[21:26]And then I can she can trust me to live my own life
[21:28]because I was always resentful of like,
[21:30]well, she'll expose me to, you know,
[21:32]like everything that can possibly go wrong.
[21:35]And then she'll show me like the saddest parts
[21:37]of the world when we travel and it's not the saddest parts.
[21:40]Like we go to nice places.
[21:41]But you know, she'll tell me story.
[21:43]She'll read me books.
[21:44]She'll make sure I'm really educated.
[21:45]She'll make me into someone who has like an adult mindset
[21:49]but when it comes to my own life.
[21:51]And like four years old suddenly, you know?
[21:53]So it's like this whole, it's very interesting
[21:55]how moms, they always say like,
[21:59]just go like explore.
[22:00]But when it comes to the kid exploring,
[22:02]they're really scared to do that.
[22:05]I never felt like I could relate to both sides
[22:08]of an argument more than I feel right this moment.
[22:12]Like because I feel like on the one hand, I'm like you.
[22:16]And then I'm like the mom too.
[22:18]I have four of my own kids.
[22:19]And so I totally get where you're coming from.
[22:21]It's, you know, as much as you love
[22:24]and what your kids to go off, like it's like a part of you.
[22:29]It's like your right hand is out there.
[22:31]Like walking around, like it's a part of you.
[22:33]And you don't mean to necessarily.
[22:35]It's like if you're about to touch the fire, right?
[22:38]You want to grab your hand back.
[22:39]It's just you do it.
[22:40]It's instinctive.
[22:41]So and I think coming from a past like yours line
[22:45]where, you know, you've had all of this really trauma
[22:49]before you are even a, you know, a teenager essentially.
[22:52]Like it's a lot.
[22:54]It's a lot to bring into like what should we have for dinner?
[22:57]I'm actually amazed that the two of you got this book done.
[23:00]Now that I, I've talked to you at all my friends
[23:04]that had to hear about it for two years.
[23:06]Oh my gosh.
[23:07]So does this now make you still want to be a writer?
[23:11]Ireland, are you okay?
[23:13]I do want to write movies more because I'm being honest,
[23:17]like I think movies are more my thing
[23:19]if I could like get up the nerves.
[23:22]And also like, I really just want to make like a lot of money
[23:25]and then give it to a lot of animals.
[23:28]Okay, important to me too.
[23:30]But writing, I would write another,
[23:31]I would write one by myself.
[23:35]And maybe like one day when I'm older have,
[23:39]it'd be really cool to like end a career.
[23:42]Starting it with a memoir and then ending it with a memoir.
[23:45]So maybe when I'm like 660,
[23:47]I'll write about what it was like to write with my mom.
[23:51]That would be cool.
[23:51]She's very good with conversation.
[23:53]So I think like a movie would be good for her
[23:56]because it's back and forth.
[23:57]Yeah, I need writing description.
[23:58]I like dialogue.
[23:59]I don't like descriptions.
[24:00]Ron, how did you, did you just write like this
[24:04]from when you first started writing
[24:06]or did you learn to do it?
[24:08]Because the way you even describe things is so beautiful.
[24:12]And you can tell even the way you speak
[24:14]with all of your analogies, how you think about things
[24:16]in terms of just like the beauty
[24:18]and how you can talk about it.
[24:19]I'm trying to find like a quote that I had.
[24:21]It might seem strange that being a refugee
[24:23]and being a mother feels so similar to me.
[24:25]But both involve a torturous and lifelong drive
[24:28]and search of home and security in one case or oneself
[24:32]in the other even more furiously for one's child.
[24:35]The journey of a refugee away from more
[24:37]and lost toward peace in a new life.
[24:39]And the journey of a mother raising a child
[24:41]to be secure and happy are both steep paths filled
[24:45]with detours and stumbling blocks.
[24:46]For me, both hold mystery.
[24:49]That's beautiful.
[24:50]I had never heard refugee being a refugee
[24:53]compared to being a mother in quite the same way
[24:55]before what you do like throughout.
[24:57]And tell me a little more about your actual writing.
[25:00]Maybe your novel writing sort of is the practice you needed.
[25:05]You know, I think I wrote basically because I read.
[25:09]And I love to write because I'm not talking about
[25:12]legal scholarship.
[25:13]I like to write because the kind of writing I do for writing
[25:18]because it's very unruly.
[25:19]It's to me, it's like a dreamscape.
[25:21]So even in this book, which is very much based on our lives,
[25:25]it is the stuff that is underneath the surface
[25:30]that I'm interested in.
[25:31]So a lot of times when you write even a memoir
[25:34]where you know things that happen already,
[25:36]I feel very much like I enter into a world
[25:39]that I normally don't enter in my awake life.
[25:42]So it's like going to sleep on your dream.
[25:44]You can never tell yourself what dream you're going to dream.
[25:48]And the act of writing is very similar to me.
[25:50]It unravels, it unspools.
[25:53]And it paps into a part of the self
[25:57]that is a little bit more of the unconscious digestion
[26:00]of what happens in the surface of nearly life.
[26:04]And I think that's from having read so much.
[26:07]It helps me to write because I didn't take a writing course
[26:11]per se.
[26:12]It's just like if you read, you just know what works for you.
[26:15]And in many ways writing is very similar
[26:17]to other forms of creativity.
[26:19]So for example, Harlan likes so much movies,
[26:21]but also when I watch movies, I see and this helps me
[26:25]with writing, I see the angle of the camera
[26:29]or I see how the director may be places and objects,
[26:33]which may be recur in the next scene.
[26:35]So these are devices that are very helpful
[26:39]when you're trying to construct the story.
[26:41]In the movie, it's visual in writing, it's less visual,
[26:45]but we all use the same device, right?
[26:48]Which is a premonition, a foreshadowing,
[26:52]recurring images.
[26:54]And I combine that with more of the dreamscape.
[26:57]So if both of you would give advice to aspiring authors,
[27:00]what would you say?
[27:01]I would say that it helped me when I first started
[27:04]that I knew nothing about the business.
[27:06]So having that beginners, I remember there's a book I love
[27:09]called Zen Mine Beginners Mine.
[27:12]And a lot of times we think of knowledge
[27:14]as something we accumulate and the more, the better.
[27:17]But sometimes removing excess is also really good,
[27:21]things that are just baggage.
[27:22]And I think knowing too much actually about something
[27:26]can be a hindrance because it makes you feel overwhelmed
[27:29]and then you don't get to the core.
[27:32]And if the core is I wanna write,
[27:34]then you should just write and not worry about the next step.
[27:37]So shedding knowledge, actually, for me,
[27:40]was good for writing.
[27:42]Because if I had known how complicated the business is,
[27:45]I don't think I would have had the innocence.
[27:47]I guess when someone writes, it's important to understand
[27:51]that I can only speak to the memoir like fiction
[27:54]or something, not research.
[27:57]But you're writing just about life.
[28:01]And when you write about your own life,
[28:02]or you write about an ordinary life,
[28:04]it's not superhero or something like that.
[28:06]It's something that is possible for everybody to go through.
[28:10]Like every book is really just about different human relationships.
[28:13]And everybody's gonna experience that one point,
[28:15]other it's just like your job is just to say it in a way
[28:18]that's like aesthetically pleasing
[28:19]that people like to read about.
[28:21]So just to, I guess to just try to keep as much
[28:25]like relatability as much as possible.
[28:27]And remember that even though your writing is different
[28:32]and you're talking about something different,
[28:33]you are very similar to everybody else.
[28:35]You have to have something universal.
[28:36]And I think all human yearnings are universal.
[28:38]So when you write about your yearning
[28:41]and how it relates to the world,
[28:43]I think that it will create that connection with the reader,
[28:48]which is what you want to do
[28:49]because you know, writing is so solitary.
[28:51]You're just writing by yourself.
[28:53]And it feels very, very disconnected sometimes.
[28:56]But if you know that there is this connection
[28:59]you're going to make, then it's very helpful.
[29:02]Well, I can tell you I felt like super connected
[29:04]to both of you.
[29:05]Having read this and hearing your earmost thoughts
[29:07]and how like literary they were and, you know,
[29:10]you're anger, you're like, you know, like it's great.
[29:13]It's really good stuff.
[29:15]And then to be able to chat with you is
[29:16]thank you so much today.
[29:18]So thank you, family and six tones.
[29:20]Thank you so much for all of your time.
[29:22]We have such a busy schedule.
[29:23]We will follow you on social on your Instagram.
[29:26]You will do that.
[29:27]Okay.
[29:28]All right.
[29:29]Have a good day.
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[29:53]Thanks for listening to this episode
[29:55]of moms don't have time to read books.
[29:57]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zippyowans.
[30:00]And at moms don't have time to read books.
[30:02]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com
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[30:06]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[30:11]for the sound editing.
[30:12]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:14]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.