Kate Riordan, THE HEATWAVE
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[1:51]to help Kate Reardon is the author of The Heat Wave. She's a writer and journalist and an avid
[1:56]reader of Daphne Nomare and Agatha Christie. Both of whom have influenced her writing.
[2:01]She lives in the Cotswolds where she writes full-time. The Heat Wave is her fourth novel.
[2:06]Welcome, Kate. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books. Just talk about
[2:10]the Heat Wave. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. Did you intentionally pick a shirt that
[2:16]matched the covers? No, all my clothes agreed. It is fun. Oh, good. Okay, perfect. Excellent.
[2:22]I just wanted to make sure, you know. Good idea. I should have gone with that.
[2:28]So for people who don't know, could you please describe what the Heat Wave is about?
[2:32]The Heat Wave is about a single mother divorced mother, Silby, who's returning to the south of
[2:39]France where she's from, with her younger daughter, Emma, for the first time in 10 years and
[2:44]10 years earlier, she lost her eldest daughter, Ella Dee, there, and the book really is about
[2:50]finding out what happened 10 years ago. So it's a sort of a suspense novel, really.
[2:54]And what is it that inspired you to write the story? I know. It's not your first novel by
[2:59]any stretch. How did you come up with these characters? Why this story? I think I first of all
[3:03]really wanted to set up a conference. So that was my starting point and I've been kind of looking
[3:07]for an excuse for years because I went as a child and spent many, many years in France. My
[3:12]friend is not actually very good, but my heart's in the right place and I do love it. So I always
[3:17]wanted to write book in France. And then I really wanted to write a book about sort of
[3:21]sibling rivalry. And the initial idea was to have it written from the point of view of the
[3:26]younger daughter, the younger sister, Emma, who's sort of 13, 14 in the book. And have her living
[3:32]in the shadow of this older sister that was killed 10 years earlier and how she deals with that,
[3:37]that she's half resentful and half kind of adoring. But then I found when I was writing in Emma's
[3:43]point of view, it was a bit flimsy and I didn't feel as though it was coming very naturally. And so
[3:48]I thought just I'd try out writing in Sylvia's book. It's still been the mother in her own 40s.
[3:53]And it suddenly took off then the book. So then it became a book about mothers and daughters
[3:58]and taught a toxic relationship between a mother and a daughter. And then I got really into that.
[4:03]And I just sort of, I'd found my book then and it came quite easily after that. And there was a
[4:09]a lot of editing. I'm not saying exactly. But recently, I felt immediately so I got the right
[4:15]story when I started writing Sylvia's from Sylvia's point of view. And I loved how it wasn't just
[4:20]from Sylvia's point of view, but it was almost as if it was a letter to Emma. So it's like you
[4:25]came in and I was giving this to you. So as a reader, you feel like you're just sort of listening
[4:30]in on a mother's conversation with her own child telling her this whole story, which was like
[4:34]so great, especially as things escalated and got very, you know, exciting.
[4:40]Exactly. Yeah, I really, I enjoyed doing that. And my addition, I had a discussion early on
[4:45]about do we like this second person narrative is it confusing? And I really suck up for it and sort
[4:50]it made it more intense, actually, because it's kind of why she is really an apology here to
[4:56]Emma and why is that and what's, you know, what's happened and what doesn't Emma know.
[5:01]And that was another reason actually for moving the point of view into Sylvia's head,
[5:04]so that she became a more interesting narrative, because actually the whole point is Emma knows
[5:09]very little. And if you as the reader are stuck with Emma for the whole book as someone who's
[5:13]totally in the dark, I was worried that it would also become quite frustrating for the reader,
[5:17]whereas with Sylvia, she can, there are flashbacks in the book that the present day is actually
[5:22]1993, but it flashes back to the 70s and 80s. And that enabled me to let Sylvia in the past kind of
[5:29]reveal sort of clues as to what happened one by one. So hopefully that kind of draws the reader on
[5:36]and propels the narration along. It was super successful. I feel like from like a craft perspective
[5:42]and structure and everything, it was just perfect. Both sort of went in tandem, letting us like
[5:48]stay in it and yet getting enough of the backstory just enough at each time to really like care
[5:53]even more. So I don't know if that was awesome. We'd be editing. I've got to thank my
[5:57]children. You came out from the US at Grand Central Seema. They really worked me hard to make
[6:03]the book tight and set things like, she's setting by the pool again, things need to happen. So I
[6:08]think yeah, I have them to thank for lots of that. I did the kind of, no, I sat in spare and they
[6:12]helped me kind of nail down the action. So the atmosphere also was fantastic. I felt like it was my
[6:19]biggest vacation in this whole quarantine time where international travel is not allowed and all of
[6:25]the sudden I could smell and taste and see and hear everything going on in the south of France.
[6:30]So it was such a nice little respite. In fact, I put it in my newsletter this week and said like,
[6:35]if anybody wants a trip to France, you know, pick up the anyway. I have all these people saying like,
[6:40]thank you. I got it. I feel like I took a trip with you and it's so good. That's really great.
[6:47]I loved also, as you were mentioning before, this whole relationship with mothers and daughters and
[6:52]how fraught it is. And there's some stuff in here that's very much relatable to really any mother and
[6:58]daughter and any new mother, especially who's trying to get to know their child. And you never know
[7:02]what you get. I mean, yeah, it's not always, you know, I've said this before, but it's like before I
[7:08]was a mother, I thought that I would have a lot more control over how my kids turned out. And as
[7:12]I've had more and more kids, it becomes very clear to me that I have no control on that. They're
[7:15]kind of bored in the way they're bored. And all I could do is sort of, you know, straighten out the edges,
[7:20]so here's one quote, you said, although my joy is laced with fear, it's the kind every parent
[7:27]feels, the kind that hurts your heart and makes the world seem as amazing as it is hazardous,
[7:31]I am a mother. And this is right when she becomes a mother and is sort of trying to figure out how
[7:37]to process this in the context of the world. Tell me a little bit more. Port all goes wrong.
[7:43]Yes, although it goes wrong kind of slowly. And so you get to go along with her, which is great.
[7:48]Tell me a little about that part of the narration and the relationship between
[7:52]mothers and daughters and sort of your own perspective coming into it. Like,
[7:57]did you take anything of this from any part of your life or relationships you've seen or,
[8:02]you know, friends or relatives or like, where did this, did any of this germinate and a part of
[8:07]your life? I think the thing that really is strongly drawn from my life is actually Sylvia's
[8:12]relationship with her younger daughter Emma. So in the present day in 93, a lot of that is me
[8:18]and my mum's my mum's only one. My parents split up and I was five and I've got great set
[8:23]parents and it's all great. But mum and I were very close. So that is very much us. In terms of
[8:28]Elledy, who is the difficult child in the child that Sylvia really struggles to bond with,
[8:34]that is very much me having, well, I've just sounds bad saying having fun with, but really letting
[8:40]my imagination go. And I suppose I've been influenced by other books and other films in that sense.
[8:46]So something like we need to talk about Kevin is an obvious example of that. You know,
[8:51]a mother who actually, I mean, my Sylvia, I think, started off with a much more idealised
[8:56]idea of motherhood than maybe Eva does in, we need to talk about Kevin. But she becomes more
[9:02]and more ambivalent as time goes on and starts thinking. So there's those questions of nature and
[9:07]nurture, you know, have I, are the problems with Elledy my fault or has she born this way?
[9:12]And then what happens is when she ten years later, she decides she's not going to have any more
[9:17]children because she thinks she's terrible at it and she couldn't cope possibly with another one.
[9:22]And then she falls pregnant again with Emma by accident and then Emma's really easy and it's all
[9:27]slots into place and it's exactly how she dreamed it would be. So then she starts thinking
[9:32]more and more and feeling guilty about this. Got maybe it is actually to do with Elledy rather than me.
[9:37]But I think grappling, I think, you know, even if a mother has a fairly straightforward relationship
[9:42]with their child. There's always loads of guilt in there and worry that you're not getting
[9:46]right or that you're going to kind of store up troubles for your children. They're going to be in
[9:50]therapy forever because of some small state you're making down the line. But it's probably also
[9:55]interesting to say that I'm not another. I didn't have children, it didn't happen for me.
[10:00]And that's a whole other story.
[10:01]But I felt actually quite liberated to write this in many ways
[10:04]because I didn't have to, and I'm not saying, you know,
[10:07]women writers who are mothers shouldn't write a book like this.
[10:11]But for me, there were no qualms about writing a book
[10:15]that my child would one day go up and read and maybe think,
[10:18]all did mum feel like this about me at any point.
[10:21]I could just go for it.
[10:22]And I felt as though I've got lots of mum friends
[10:26]who, you know, there are things they don't say.
[10:28]There are still to booze.
[10:30]You know, you might say, oh, go and find it really hard.
[10:33]But for instance, I think a lot of moms don't want to admit
[10:35]that it's often quite boring being a mum of young children
[10:39]and very repetitive and you feel like you've lost
[10:41]yourself a bit and you just become mum or mum.
[10:46]So I could explore all that and really go for it.
[10:49]And I was sort of trying to do a bit of a service
[10:51]to mothers everywhere, I think.
[10:53]And that's something that sounds ridiculous.
[10:54]But that kind of, I can be really honest
[10:57]because I don't have children.
[10:58]And I think actually a lot of you feel like this sometimes
[11:01]and that's fine.
[11:03]So thank you.
[11:03]Thank you for the service.
[11:04]And be happy to be there.
[11:06]That sounds like you feel in the middle.
[11:08]Yeah, metal is in FedEx right now.
[11:10]Thank you.
[11:12]Can you talk a little more about your decision
[11:15]to have cancer as a private or?
[11:17]No, I don't.
[11:18]I'm actually quite open about it.
[11:19]I don't mind talking about it.
[11:20]I actually had those miscarriages.
[11:22]And I had actually always been quite ambient about motherhood.
[11:25]I wasn't sure it was for me.
[11:27]I'm quite, I need a lot of my own space and time.
[11:30]I'm not good with noise.
[11:32]So I was never sure that I would be terribly good at it.
[11:35]And then in a sense, it was,
[11:37]I mean, maybe it wasn't taken out of my hands.
[11:39]I could have maybe kept going,
[11:40]but I made the decision that I didn't want to try anymore.
[11:43]And I didn't want to have, I felt as though my body wasn't my own.
[11:46]I felt the hormones were making me mad.
[11:49]And I just stopped and it was a real relief actually.
[11:53]So I have dogs instead, it was much easier, probably.
[11:58]I don't know, I find kids easier than dogs.
[12:00]I mean, I had a couple of dogs, but I don't know.
[12:04]At least kids, you can like reason with them at some point.
[12:07]I feel like dogs.
[12:09]I don't know.
[12:10]I don't know if they understand me.
[12:11]I don't know.
[12:12]I mean, I love dogs, but I don't know.
[12:14]I don't have the gift of dealing with dogs, which I really like.
[12:17]I have very two rescue dogs in there,
[12:19]but one particularly is completely nuts.
[12:22]And I've actually put her to bed in her crate with a cover over.
[12:25]Because otherwise, she would be growling and jumping up
[12:28]and wanting to see who you were and you'll hear your voice.
[12:31]So I, yeah, so you couldn't do that with a child.
[12:34]Probably that would be seen as a bit cruel
[12:36]to put them into the door.
[12:38]Now, I feel a good idea.
[12:39]I would not recommend that.
[12:41]So that's a good thing about dogs.
[12:42]You can do that.
[12:43]It's a lot.
[12:44]That's cute.
[12:45]But I realized that the child equivalent of that
[12:47]is basically putting them in a trampoline.
[12:49]Because they can't really go anywhere.
[12:51]You zip them in.
[12:52]It's like contained.
[12:53]The noise, you know, there is a noise factor,
[12:56]but it's usually outside.
[12:57]So yeah, the trampoline as like modern day playpen
[13:00]for kids up to, however old.
[13:02]And sometimes you can just throw your partner in there.
[13:04]Just, yeah.
[13:05]Anyway, zip it all up.
[13:07]Oh my gosh.
[13:09]In terms of the structure of the book again
[13:11]and I know I'm kind of jumping around here a little,
[13:13]but I've always been wondering when you write two timelines
[13:16]like this and you have like such discreet stories going
[13:19]like two at a time, essentially you're writing two books.
[13:21]at the same time and then they had to somehow, you know,
[13:23]Mary at the end.
[13:25]Did you write like one of them first
[13:26]and then the other or did you write them both in tandem?
[13:30]Like how did you approach this or the writing process
[13:33]of the story?
[13:34]I think I started off just writing random bits
[13:36]that interested me because I have to sort of curse myself
[13:40]into writing quite a lot.
[13:41]I really love it when I do it,
[13:42]but I sort of avoid it and I fight it.
[13:44]So when I'm writing the book at the beginning,
[13:46]I write bits that I'm interested in.
[13:48]And so they'll be all over the place.
[13:50]And I actually welcome Scribner quite a lot
[13:52]because I find, I don't know if you know that program.
[13:55]Yeah, it means you can kind of move things
[13:58]around much more easily than you could in word.
[14:00]And so often I'll write sections and then move the order
[14:03]about and with this one particularly,
[14:06]I've written a lot of the kind of more difficult things
[14:09]shall we say, the bits that maybe go in the last sort of two
[14:12]thirds because it's the flashbacks
[14:14]are chronological, they see energy growing up.
[14:17]And I need more at the beginning
[14:19]so they're kind of the softer bits,
[14:20]the bits about when she's pregnant
[14:22]and she's still getting on with her ex-husband Greg.
[14:24]So lots of those are actually slotted in and written quite late.
[14:28]And I think if you do that, then you can kind of,
[14:30]you can play around with it
[14:31]and you can also find little patterns.
[14:33]So if in the 1993 scene,
[14:36]there's a sort of a theme going on.
[14:37]You can maybe have a little hint of that
[14:40]in the flashback that follows that ties those two things
[14:43]together.
[14:44]It might be something to do with the house,
[14:46]a little feature that crops up in the house
[14:48]that reminds the reader that this is the same place.
[14:51]And I think that can add to the atmosphere
[14:53]and the idea of the place
[14:55]that was being haunted by memories.
[14:57]So yeah, I do lots and lots of moving about
[14:59]and even old scenes, I will then re-jig
[15:01]and adding different nuance.
[15:03]And one of the main things I had to work on
[15:06]in the edit quite hard was actually to make
[15:08]the more dramatic scenes more.
[15:10]So when, this is hard not to give stuff away
[15:12]with this book, the LEDs is a very troubled child.
[15:16]And there are scenes where she's being a bad child
[15:19]and kind of scary.
[15:21]And some of that stuff I had to work on
[15:23]because my editors felt maybe some bits weren't scary enough.
[15:26]I was actually being too subtle with it,
[15:28]which was interesting to me
[15:29]because I think I've got a heart brother and sister,
[15:31]but they're quite a lot younger than me.
[15:33]So I did grow up more or less as an only child
[15:35]and I was putting in sibling rivalry scenes.
[15:38]And my editors were saying,
[15:40]that's kind of normal.
[15:41]And I was thinking it was really disturbing and dark.
[15:44]So I had to kind of up all that stuff,
[15:46]but keep it on the right side.
[15:48]I didn't want it to get stupid.
[15:49]I don't want it to become sort of almost far sickle
[15:52]and two-groom and two-gory.
[15:55]Because with that kind of ideas of callous
[15:58]and unemotional children who you worry
[16:01]might grow up to be psychopaths,
[16:03]you, there are a lot of tropes that you use again and again.
[16:07]And it's very hard to sort of escape them entirely,
[16:10]but I didn't just want the neighbors cat ending up dead.
[16:13]And I wanted to do something a little bit different if I could.
[16:16]So working on those bits was fun.
[16:19]But I've gone on a mass of talent
[16:20]from your original question.
[16:22]So I don't know, right in order by any means,
[16:26]I kind of mess around and come back to bits
[16:29]and then flot it all in as a jigsaw at the end, really.
[16:32]And tell me about how you have to motivate yourself to write
[16:35]and tell me about that even though you've decided
[16:38]to be a writer, like, oh no, I know, I'm a mass of this.
[16:42]I do, yes, I love it.
[16:43]And if I had a good day of writing,
[16:45]I feel so sort of calm and lovely and yogic that evening.
[16:48]And I think, oh, I'm just going to do that again tomorrow
[16:50]and I'm going to have a proper routine
[16:52]and it all goes out the window.
[16:53]It's really weird.
[16:55]I don't understand that resistance
[16:56]because it's my job.
[16:58]And if I couldn't get any more book deals,
[17:00]I'd be distraught.
[17:01]So who knows?
[17:03]But I mean, they get done.
[17:04]I've written five books, so I just think,
[17:07]I maybe don't beat myself up too much
[17:08]because they do get done in the end.
[17:10]And I never miss a deadline.
[17:11]So, but I think I was a journalist before I was a writer
[17:14]and I think I wasn't even on monthly magazines.
[17:16]I was on weekly magazines.
[17:18]And that really suited me
[17:19]because I quite quick at getting stuff down.
[17:21]And I quite like that doing a little bit of research,
[17:24]write it all up and then form it's done.
[17:26]And it's in and it's complete.
[17:28]And I can move on to something else.
[17:29]Whereas, you know, with a book, it is a kind of right
[17:31]we'll see you in a year.
[17:32]And I find that quite tricky to navigate
[17:35]because I've always been a last-minute person
[17:37]and you really can't be a last-minute person
[17:39]if you're writing a 90,000 word novel,
[17:41]you know, have a nervous breakdown
[17:43]if you've left it to the last month.
[17:45]So, I have to be consistent.
[17:46]So, I walk around with a lot of guilt.
[17:48]But I'm coming round to thinking that actually
[17:51]a lot of days when I'm, I think I'm,
[17:54]we're saying we're in skiving.
[17:55]I don't know if that's a word in America
[17:57]where you're kind of dunking off
[17:59]or these are all really kind of British terms.
[18:02]But you know, they're not doing shurking
[18:04]and not doing the work you should be doing.
[18:06]Maybe procrastinating or you're better.
[18:09]But actually, I think I am doing work in my head.
[18:11]And I'm walking with dogs
[18:12]and I'm making little notes on my phone.
[18:14]So, I think I do more work than I think I do.
[18:17]Things are kind of percolating all the time really.
[18:20]Hopefully.
[18:21]Yeah, we're gonna go with that one.
[18:22]Yeah.
[18:23]Non-stop, workaholic.
[18:25]Yeah, I never saw.
[18:27]Never stop.
[18:28]Oh, no, not already.
[18:29]Come on.
[18:31]So, are you already at work on your next novel
[18:33]or what's going on in your time now?
[18:36]Yeah, I'm busy at the moment
[18:37]with stuff of the heatbait, which is really fun.
[18:39]Like this kind of thing.
[18:40]But yes, I started, I've done about a fit
[18:42]of a book set in Italy.
[18:45]And I used to go to Italy this summer
[18:47]with my parents actually and do some research.
[18:50]And I was really looking forward to that.
[18:51]But obviously, that's being postponed.
[18:53]But that is about, that's more I suppose
[18:55]the heat wave is about mothers and daughters.
[18:57]This is about marriages.
[18:59]And I just put up my husband quite recently
[19:01]which is totally amicable and nice.
[19:03]But I think I'm 42 and I think it's an interesting age,
[19:07]actually, or early 40s, late 30s.
[19:09]I think you still very much young enough
[19:11]to kind of start again.
[19:13]I mean, not that being 50s, not young enough to start again.
[19:16]But you know what I mean?
[19:17]You're kind of probably halfway through your life
[19:18]if you're lucky.
[19:20]And I think it's a time where you think
[19:22]like what do I want the rest of my life to look like?
[19:24]And is this enough?
[19:25]And so it's exploring those kind of things.
[19:28]But I keep saying to my ex,
[19:30]it's not going to be about you and me.
[19:31]It's not going to be about you and me.
[19:33]But I mean, it never to be due draw from your life a bit.
[19:36]But it's I'm really looking forward to that.
[19:37]And there's some American characters in that as well
[19:39]that I'm looking forward to writing.
[19:41]So maybe I can do a research trip to the States as well.
[19:44]Totally.
[19:45]Yeah, come visit.
[19:46]I had the same thing.
[19:47]I got divorced five years ago, I'm 43.
[19:50]So when I was 38 and I'm remarried now.
[19:53]But yeah, it's a good, I feel like hitting your 40th birthday,
[19:55]there's a big shift in recognition, like, you know,
[20:00]get one life's live and life's too short to be miserable
[20:04]with everything. So you might as well, but it's still a big step
[20:07]and a big risk. And I don't know, but anyway, so yes, I am
[20:12]really eager to read your next book. Yeah, you might like it.
[20:16]And like, you know, it's a really interesting age. And I've got
[20:18]lots of friends who are going through similar things and it's
[20:21]all happened around the same time almost as though it's
[20:23]contagious. And lockdown kind of finished a few friends off
[20:27]as well in terms of, you know, their marriage relationships. So
[20:31]yes, strange times all round really, but I'm hoping I can, you
[20:35]know, write something that speaks to people about that stuff.
[20:38]You know, I think as I've gone on, I have written a few books
[20:41]now and I used to write more kind of historical fiction. I
[20:44]think as I've gone on, I've got more confident and maybe
[20:47]been happier to write stuff that's closer to me. And certainly,
[20:50]I'm among my mum read the heatwave for the first time. She said,
[20:53]oh, this is really, this is like you. And she didn't mean, you
[20:56]know, that silvy is me. Oh, yeah, or energy is melody. Yeah,
[21:02]okay. Couldn't say, you know, imagine that. But just that it felt
[21:05]as though it was kind of me speaking. And I thought, yeah, I
[21:08]think that that's that's a confidence thing. And I think the
[21:11]next one will be the more that way. That's great. Well, we'll
[21:15]get all the way to maybe a memoir in like 40 years, who knows,
[21:18]you know, work your way slowly there. What did you in your
[21:21]ex decided to do about the dark just out of curiosity? We
[21:24]do share them currently. He's kind of between places that
[21:27]make, because I bought him out. So I'm in the cottage. So
[21:29]they're with me all the time at the moment. But he's, yeah,
[21:31]we're going to have a week on a week off. And that was
[21:34]sweetening, because I like spending some time in London. I've got
[21:36]family there, because I live in the cots world,
[21:38]in the middle of nowhere. So I kind of like having that kind of
[21:41]city country thing. So I think that will work well. But
[21:44]yeah, currently, I'm kind of a single mum to them. And it's
[21:47]quite hardcore Sundays. Especially when it's raining, I have to
[21:49]say, well, but yes, that's how we just, I think, yes, it's been
[21:52]very nice and very amicable. And he's big support to me
[21:55]always. So yeah, so you know, as divorce is going, it's been a
[21:59]good one. Do you ever feel scared? I feel like if I were in a
[22:03]big cottage in the middle of nowhere with just me and my two
[22:06]dogs, I don't know. I feel like I get scared all the time
[22:08]outside of cities, having grown up in New York City.
[22:11]At any time, I'm like in any sort of wilderness. I'm like,
[22:13]what's that noise? Yeah, though, I was like that to begin
[22:16]with the first night we spent here as kind of it was that it
[22:19]was so dark. I couldn't tell my eyes were open or not. And I was
[22:22]born in London. So I'm like you that I've got used to it. And
[22:26]it's luckily weird. It's 1750s this cottage, but it really
[22:29]not very creaky. Fortunately, what there is is a lot of spiders
[22:33]at the moment because they're all coming in to mate. So every
[22:36]night, I'm going to deal with like these huge house fighters.
[22:39]So I really grown up in the last couple of weeks. So yeah, that
[22:44]it's not fun. I must say so I needed so fairly soon with quite
[22:47]like another husband really. Or perhaps just just
[22:51]exterminate. Yeah, maybe I'll get a cat or something and they
[22:54]can get spiders apparently they do. So do you have any
[22:59]advice for aspiring authors? I think well, this is also
[23:03]advice to me. Give yourself a break. Don't beat yourself up
[23:05]all the time. I remember I was talking about this because I
[23:07]love Stephen King, but he wrote a book on writing and it
[23:10]really actually intimidated me. He said because he's got
[23:13]this prodigious work kind of, you know, ethic. And he said,
[23:17]you know, if you're not writing 2000 words a day, then, you know,
[23:19]what, what the hell are you doing? You're not really a serious
[23:21]writer and you don't obviously want it. And it really made me
[23:25]like not write for ages because I thought, well, I'm just not
[23:27]doing it properly. So I would say, you know, do what you can,
[23:31]you know, but also read, read, read, read, because I was a
[23:34]reader way before I was a writer. And you will learn what
[23:37]you like and what you don't like and what's effective and
[23:41]you read a book and you're on the edge of your seat. You can look at
[23:44]why that is and look at it as a kind of piece of like a
[23:47]construction. And that's the best way to learn, I think.
[23:51]So there you are. I totally agree. Well, if you end up needing
[23:55]to do, you know, research on American divorcees, you can just,
[23:59]you know, DMA or something, you know, keep this conversation going.
[24:03]I love this book. That'd be great.
[24:06]Well, thank you. Thanks, Keith, for coming on. I absolutely love
[24:09]this book. I've like recommended 100 times in everywhere
[24:12]I recommend books. And just the way you write, and I know we
[24:16]talked a lot about sort of structure and and all the rest, but
[24:19]your actual writing style is so beautiful. And I just loved it.
[24:25]I just loved it. I emailed your publicist in the beginning.
[24:28]And I was like, I love this book. I love you so much.
[24:32]Anyway, thank you. I love that. That's really made my day.
[24:35]Thank you. Yeah. Good. Okay. All right. We'll have a great day and
[24:38]and talk up on the green shirts for future interviews.
[24:41]And, you know, good luck with the dogs.
[24:45]All right. Have a great day. Thanks so much to firstbook.org for sponsoring
[24:51]this Labor Day book blast. Please consider giving to firstbook.org
[24:56]to help their network of 475,000 educators serving children in need.
[25:01]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:04]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
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[25:16]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[25:20]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:24]now trim music.