Raven Leilani, LUSTER
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[0:53]The sponsor for this whole Labor Day book last week is firstbook.org.
[0:58]Obviously, the pandemic is crippling education for millions of students, especially those in low-income communities.
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[1:44]They need your support to ensure these children have what they need to learn during this
[1:48]critical time. Visit firstbook.org to help Raven Leilani is the debut author of novel
[1:55]Luster. Her work has been published in grand-time mixed weenies quarterly concern,
[1:59]the Yale review, conjunctions, the cut, and New England review among other publications.
[2:04]She completed her MFA at NYU. Welcome, Raven. Thank you so much for coming on mom's
[2:08]don't have time to read books. Thank you for having me. This is such a pleasure. So first of all,
[2:13]your book Luster has been on like every single list of books. You must be like over the mood.
[2:20]It's gotten so much attention and success and everything. What has this been like for you?
[2:24]It's been really, really surreal. Like truly, I think when we were originally going to
[2:30]with me acquired the book, I think the main concern in the publishing industry at the moment,
[2:36]like a year ago in the before time, you know, was how do you publish a book doing what is
[2:43]sure to be like a very insane election year. And then, you know, we had the year we had and it felt
[2:50]and there's so many things that happened. Things that happened that almost make it feel inappropriate
[2:55]in a way to be talking about my book. But I feel really heartened that people have rallied
[3:00]around books and that people are connecting with my book. You know, that's really the dream
[3:05]of that you put the book out there and people care about it, you know, and I used to work in
[3:08]publishing. So I've also seen like the other side of it. And so my expectation for very managed,
[3:14]you know, like I had an idea of how this goes and it's really just surpassed my expectations.
[3:20]Amazing. So for people who don't know what Luster is about, can you give a little synopsis
[3:27]about the plot and then what made you what inspired you to write this book and come up at the
[3:32]Sure. So like in a nutshell, Luster is about a young black woman who is trying to lay claim to
[3:39]the right to make art, but it's also about a relationship with a man who hasn't opened marriage,
[3:45]but more so the relationship that she develops between or with his wife and child. So that's like
[3:51]the general plot. But in writing this, I'll say like when I start any project, I don't really,
[3:58]I really know what's going to be and what it is or even what I mean by it. You know,
[4:02]until I'm like maybe halfway through. And so when I got to the page, the thing that was really
[4:07]animated me was I wanted to pick a black woman who is full of yearning and desire and was seeking
[4:15]connection in a way that feels, you know, that feels human. You know, I wanted to make room for her
[4:22]to stumble, you know, to make mistakes, but also for her to express that earnest
[4:28]in part. But I also, you know, I wanted to worry about art, but that was sort of the second half.
[4:33]And more just because it's something that always finds its way into my work,
[4:37]art making, but also the role of failure and art making is really important to me.
[4:43]Because I think that is like, I mean, 80% of the endeavor. And then I wanted to talk
[4:49]kind of bluntly about that. So do you perceive all different forms of creativity as art,
[4:54]regardless of the medium? Yes, 100%, 100%. I think that no matter what you're making,
[5:01]if you're making it right, you're making something, there are hurdles, you know, that you have to
[5:07]jump in order to be able to realize that vision. And it's a, I mean, it's like a, it's kind of a
[5:14]hard and occasionally demoralizing state to be. And right, when you have a thing that you want to
[5:19]communicate and you cannot effectively articulate it or create it, I wanted to write about
[5:27]how you potentially move from that, from that state into one that feels generative, you know,
[5:32]and I think for me, being able to write about it in a way that will honest, I hoped would feel
[5:39]liberating because I know that while I was writing SEO, I was, I was in my MFA as in school and
[5:44]I was working full-time. And that is generally sort of the framework around how I wrote anything,
[5:51]really anything I've ever written has been in those all hours after 9.95. And so my journey to
[5:58]even writing this book was really, you know, it was really jagged. And it wasn't straightforward
[6:04]progress, you know? And so I felt it was important to talk about that. The idea that sometimes
[6:11]there are hurdles, sometimes there are detours, and then that's okay. So take me back to like
[6:17]the very beginning of you to find out how we got here. So like, where were you born? And when did
[6:22]you start to like writings? Like when did you know you were a writer and take me along your,
[6:28]your jagged path that you just referred to? So I, it's funny, like, I've been writing for like
[6:34]taking this for a while, you know, I might, my, the event of my childhood was when, you know, my mom
[6:40]and I looked like Walden books. And we'd get my, and one new sketchbook and one new journal.
[6:47]And like, I actually currently have an entire, a wooden chest of all the journals. And I kept,
[6:53]and because I was, I was constantly writing, I was, I grew up seven-day Adventist. And part of that
[6:58]is keeping the Sabbath. And, you know, my means of rebellion, I think, was writing, like,
[7:04]privately, you know, these like, little private stories. But I think it really wasn't until pretty
[7:09]recently where I, I really wanted to make a real go of it. I was, I was living in D.C. and
[7:15]been there for like four or five years, kind of just working. And I came up student loans and kind
[7:20]of just trying to work. And then I, it was like 2016, 2017. And I decided to come back to New York
[7:28]to pursue my MFA. I was really looking for a community of writers. And you know, with MFA,
[7:33]you never know. You might not, you don't know what that will actually yield ultimately,
[7:37]but I knew I needed an environment where there was a certain seriousness and, and rigor
[7:43]around the work. And you don't, you know, like, you can find that in a number of ways. But that
[7:48]was the moment where I was like, I'm really, really gonna try and do this thing. And so it was,
[7:52]it was like, just since like four years ago, I was like, I feel really serious about this. And I
[7:56]at least try and go after it. But I will say, in the years before that, I was really just doing,
[8:02]like, like I mentioned, I was writing after work and writing short stories and submitting them
[8:07]that everywhere. Like, like hundreds of places, hundreds of, I'm not 100 stories, but like,
[8:12]you know, I kept an Excel document with all projections, you know, from a literary magazines.
[8:18]And I, so that was the first, those were the first steps I took to try and be serious about it.
[8:23]So it's been, it's honestly been a journey. And most of the work has been kind of work that
[8:28]is private and so almost like invisible. And so right now, I'll say like, it feels like a dream
[8:35]how a visible thing in the world. So amazing. Just little tip as an aside. I also kept like a whole
[8:43]cabinet of all my journals from, I kept growing up. I have like, all different, you know,
[8:48]different formats and, you know, whatever was trendy at that time, the different colors.
[8:52]Anyway, I have like piles and piles and recently my 13 year old daughter, like stumbled upon them.
[8:58]So keep them locked up. It's really ready to have like all the
[9:03]of whatever is in there. It's so funny. You say that because like when I was getting all of that
[9:09]stuff out of storage, because that my parents storage, and I was, you know, taking it at home with me,
[9:14]my boyfriend was with me and he happened to pick up one of the journals. I was like, no,
[9:19]you can't, you cannot see that exactly. I mean, some were pretty chased. Like, I had my first
[9:25]students today, like, I mean, marker, you know, but then yeah, even like, like all the yearbooks
[9:34]with all the messages in them. I'm like, let's just keep all these years. Oh my gosh. Anyway,
[9:40]you never know where these things are going to end up. So, but but meanwhile, Luster is so,
[9:46]I mean, vivid and almost with this like, reason sexuality. I mean, there is like, no holds
[9:52]hard. My niece was listening to us and I was like, this is not the podcast I heard of you
[9:57]like sitting on.
[10:00]I, this is, I don't know how this is going to go.
[10:01]But anyway, tell me about like not only writing about all
[10:06]the sort of sexual feelings and experiences and everything
[10:10]from like, you know, not having the right batteries
[10:12]for the vibrator to say, yes, you know,
[10:14]to like, you know, all the fantasies before
[10:17]and getting ready for the, you know,
[10:19]why is he not having sex?
[10:20]Like just so much stuff.
[10:22]Yeah.
[10:23]Now that's like, totally out there.
[10:25]Do you ever feel like, well, Daddy,
[10:27]you feel about that.
[10:28]I mean, I, I will say I didn't,
[10:30]I didn't actually anticipate the intensity of their response,
[10:34]you know, to those scenes in the book.
[10:37]Cause I kind of feel like I just wrote it.
[10:38]The only way I could, which was in a way that made room
[10:42]for that, you know, the parts of bodily drama,
[10:46]the parts of sex that are like concrete and, and ugly,
[10:50]in a way, you know, it's important, right?
[10:52]So to talk about not being able to find the right
[10:54]batteries for the vibrator, you know, like,
[10:57]is a character who is, you know, who feels deeply
[11:01]and then cares deeply and is, is really seeking that
[11:06]out in the world and, you know, making mistakes
[11:08]and service that.
[11:09]But like that, it's, it's, it's actually kind of trick
[11:12]we talk about because there's so much about ED
[11:15]as a character that's sublimated, you know,
[11:17]like if we weren't privy to her interior, you know,
[11:21]to her candid thoughts, she would be a very different
[11:24]character if we only saw those, that external behavior.
[11:27]So it's not that she is always earnest in that she's
[11:30]expressing herself, but she is her core is earnest
[11:34]and that she is full of yearning and full of desire
[11:37]and an unabashed in a way that she tries to satisfy
[11:41]those carnal, but real human needs.
[11:45]So writing the sex, you know, that too,
[11:48]it felt like an extension of her seeking, you know,
[11:51]like writing, when she's not having sex
[11:53]and when she's like dying to like be touched, you know,
[11:56]is it felt, but I didn't want to care,
[11:59]want to write a character who was actually to live, you know,
[12:02]like she makes jokes about wanting to be that
[12:05]and wanting to curate an image that looks like that.
[12:08]And that too is like, but you mentioned fantasy, you know,
[12:11]what it looks like when you come up against the fantasy
[12:14]and you have to reconcile it with much, as she does with Eric,
[12:17]you know, and the role that fantasy has in that, like,
[12:21]in reinvigorating that, that connection between them
[12:24]and the way it's obliterated when they kind of get
[12:26]to know each other is really fun to play with,
[12:29]but I think the reality is of body and of, you know,
[12:34]however many bodies in this space
[12:36]revealing themselves to each other is really fun, you know,
[12:41]real estate to play with.
[12:43]And it was important for me to make room for the way
[12:45]it's to be silly and strange and contradictory
[12:49]and to be really, you know, to be really direct
[12:53]about especially the drama, like inherent of the female body,
[12:58]you know, there's so much that's always going on
[13:01]that I think we are conditioned to not to talk about
[13:05]and also to, to prove up.
[13:07]And so I wanted you to know what was happening for battles.
[13:10]So, you know, like I wanted, I wanted that backstage work
[13:15]to be to forward.
[13:17]I mean, what you just said a minute ago about how the outside
[13:20]from looking at someone on the outside,
[13:22]looking at either the other side,
[13:23]you wouldn't know all the things going on and inside.
[13:24]That's like the main gift of writing, right?
[13:27]That's right.
[13:28]So I know we get to pull the curtain back on a person
[13:30]or a character and figure out like what the internal monologue is
[13:34]because then you figure out all the things that you can
[13:36]potentially share with somebody, right?
[13:37]Like, there's so many things that you wouldn't know
[13:40]because we don't talk about, but maybe everybody's looking
[13:42]for batteries.
[13:43]Not, that's right, that's right.
[13:45]This is an example, I'm just saying.
[13:47]I don't know.
[13:48]I think that's like one of the greatest parts
[13:49]about being able to share the interior life.
[13:53]100% like whenever that, the question of like,
[13:56]I don't know if you'll ask it anymore.
[13:58]So maybe this is like, you know,
[14:00]resurrecting out in the old argument or question,
[14:03]but like the idea of like the death of the novel, right?
[14:05]And the reason why we'll never die is because if the way
[14:09]you can represent consciousness on the page,
[14:12]like I don't think,
[14:14]I mean, I don't think there is another medium
[14:16]that can be depicted in that way.
[14:19]I totally agree, except perhaps memoir.
[14:21]Yes, right, right, yeah, which is me out.
[14:24]And I like the writing as a medium.
[14:27]No, writing as a medium is like unparalleled access
[14:30]in such a, like I don't know.
[14:33]Without it, I feel like we would lose so much connection
[14:36]with people.
[14:36]That's right.
[14:37]That's what people are searching for every time
[14:39]they open a book truly, connection, no matter what,
[14:42]form that may take, even if it's escapist
[14:44]or they want to forget their own life.
[14:46]It's, I don't know.
[14:47]No, I'm sounding ridiculous, but I do know.
[14:50]That is ridiculous.
[14:51]And you know, that is why I open a book
[14:52]is because I want to feel absorbed in the reality
[14:55]of someone, you know, like you're totally unwanted to me.
[15:00]You know, it's like writing, I think that reading is
[15:03]like it's an active discovery.
[15:05]And there's nothing more like I'm also just,
[15:07]this is my taste where I love feeling like I'm looking
[15:11]at a thing that is authentic in the way that it is not
[15:15]studied, right?
[15:17]I love the feeling of being a lawyer,
[15:21]looking in on a private moment.
[15:22]And I think, I think the novel does that so well.
[15:25]You're absolutely right.
[15:27]Yeah, because it's not like people are gonna sit down
[15:28]and tell you about it.
[15:30]Right.
[15:30]Right.
[15:31]Somehow it's okay to write about it.
[15:33]And then we can write about it.
[15:34]And somehow that's all socially acceptable.
[15:36]Right.
[15:37]Right.
[15:38]Let's just know with it, right?
[15:40]Truly.
[15:40]Getting on a stage and performing this with the content
[15:44]of this book.
[15:44]Like, truly, I mean, I'm also a severely introverted person.
[15:48]So this is the only way I could ever written a thing like this
[15:50]is like, written it on the page and then release it.
[15:53]Oh, I was so shy as a kid.
[15:57]And I like, I went a whole summer like on a summer program,
[16:00]just not even opening my mouth and just like thinking
[16:03]about language.
[16:04]Someone's like, how can some people talk when I'm finding it
[16:07]so impossible to even form a sentence?
[16:09]It just like being a observer all the time.
[16:11]And yet, as soon as I would like pick up a pencil or whatever
[16:15]and now it's like, it's like, I'm still that so hard.
[16:20]Yeah.
[16:22]And then it's almost like people can't know you
[16:23]until you have that release onto the page.
[16:26]That's right.
[16:27]Because it's only a fraction of us that you present to the world.
[16:30]I mean, to that, I will say that it's funny that I feel
[16:34]I've had some interactions releasing the book
[16:37]where people like me, who know me personally,
[16:39]will say something like it is so strange interacting with you.
[16:42]Now they know that that was inside you.
[16:44]Like, literally, you know, but that is my writing.
[16:48]That medium is the best way.
[16:50]I know how to express.
[16:52]I mean, this is not like out of bag,
[16:54]but like how to express myself.
[16:56]Like it is the only way I know how to say precisely what I mean.
[17:01]Like in real time, I'm a feel like I never do.
[17:03]That's why sometimes when I talk to people like, oh,
[17:05]how can you be so open?
[17:07]Or how do you write all that stuff?
[17:09]Or I could never or whatever.
[17:10]I'm like, yeah, the harder part is going through the rest
[17:13]of life without sort of being able to say that.
[17:15]That's right.
[17:17]The easiest part is that it can come out this way.
[17:20]I mean, I guess it's a feel comfortable sharing it.
[17:22]But in terms of, I don't know, if I couldn't do that,
[17:25]I don't know how I would even sort through what I was thinking
[17:27]and feeling.
[17:28]That's right.
[17:30]So anyway, I digress from your amazing little bit.
[17:34]I also wanted to talk about the way you talk about race
[17:36]in the book because you did such a beautiful job.
[17:39]And I was sort of disappointed with myself
[17:40]because I always like to find quotes
[17:42]and maybe people don't talk about that much.
[17:43]But when I was reading your book on the Kindle,
[17:45]I was like, oh, this is a great quote.
[17:46]And it's like, anyone people have also had,
[17:49]I was like, oh, for God's sakes.
[17:50]But anyway, I'll read it anyway because I still thought
[17:53]it was interesting.
[17:54]So this is in the passage where you're comparing yourself
[17:56]to not you.
[17:57]Where you're comparing herself to somebody,
[17:59]another up-and-coming black woman in her office
[18:02]and saying, talking about sort of the competition
[18:04]and that she feels she's about to be passed over.
[18:07]So she says, and also their relationship
[18:09]between each other.
[18:10]You said, and then I'm miscalculated.
[18:11]Too much anger shared too soon.
[18:13]Too much, can you believe these white people?
[18:15]Too much, I'm not going to say it.
[18:16]But after the police, we both graduated from the school
[18:18]of twice as good for half as much.
[18:20]But I'm sure she still finds this
[18:21]an acceptable price of admission.
[18:23]She still rearranges herself waiting to be chosen.
[18:26]And she will be because it is an art
[18:28]to be black and dogged and inoffensive.
[18:30]She is all these things.
[18:31]And she is embarrassed that I am not.
[18:33]Yeah, but it was writing those scenes was,
[18:37]I mean, I wanted to be really careful
[18:39]because I didn't want to make any sort of grand statements
[18:44]around a correct way to be black.
[18:47]Because I wanted to write two professional women
[18:51]to professional black women who are
[18:53]who have very different tactics to pretty much the same name,
[18:58]which is survival.
[19:00]They're both in their own way trying
[19:02]to survive in an environment that does not allow them
[19:06]any real margin for error.
[19:08]And Aria's response to this is to adhere
[19:12]to this impossible standard, to flatten herself,
[19:15]to make herself more palatable.
[19:17]And 80's response is refusal in a way.
[19:20]And the fact that they cannot find kinship in each other
[19:25]is perhaps no, they may both be actually complicit
[19:28]not more to blame as the environment
[19:30]that has hit them against each other.
[19:32]But it was interesting to write these two black women
[19:36]who are both hungry, who are both trying to advance.
[19:40]And you can see that in each other,
[19:42]who in a different, perhaps different context
[19:45]would be able to seek purchase in each other
[19:48]but are unable to, which I think is real,
[19:52]is really real, but also, but also devastated
[19:55]in a way that they're both really truly in need of a friend.
[20:00]of kinship but because of their environment
[20:03]and because of the demands that are kind of like
[20:06]voiced upon them in how they might survive in this environment.
[20:10]It makes it almost impossible.
[20:12]So those were like, those were real like sad
[20:15]seconds you're right, even though a beauty is kind of
[20:17]like within her mind is very much like
[20:19]is deeply judgmental, right?
[20:22]And also envious.
[20:24]But it was, yeah, that was, those were things
[20:27]where I really just wanted to talk about
[20:29]some of the ways that that hunger can manifest
[20:32]in the way a lot of Black women are meant to rise
[20:35]to the occasion, the way that flattens them.
[20:38]Interesting.
[20:38]There's been so much talk in the news
[20:41]and everywhere right now it's like so of the moment
[20:44]talking about Black women in publishing
[20:46]or Black people in general in publishing
[20:48]and the shift that's occurring
[20:50]and how it has been and how we hope it will be.
[20:54]What has your in real life experience been
[20:56]not in your character's life being in this industry
[20:59]and do you think that it's right for change?
[21:02]Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a real,
[21:04]it's like there's a real reckoning happening.
[21:06]I mean, just like a few months ago,
[21:08]I feel like a lot of Black people working
[21:10]within this industry were very vocal
[21:13]about not just like the kind of uppercase versions
[21:17]of marginalization of the experience in this industry
[21:22]but like the very kind of small, demoralizing
[21:25]almost mundane moments, it really is like there's a lot.
[21:30]There's a lot of work to be done.
[21:31]There's a lot of work to be done in terms of
[21:34]what kind of stories we prioritize
[21:37]who we allow to tell them.
[21:38]And I really, like in whom we invest in.
[21:44]So I do think that, I mean, it was I hope
[21:47]that that reckoning will kind of usher
[21:49]in a different way of going about inclusion
[21:53]and I feel like those words,
[21:54]like inclusion, diversity, in practice
[21:57]have become kind of like these, I don't know.
[22:00]I mean, these sexy kind of almost,
[22:03]I don't know how to articulate it.
[22:05]These things that actually mean so much
[22:07]and that make us better and make our art better.
[22:10]I think it cannot be a service level change,
[22:13]like it has to happen.
[22:14]It has to happen a real fundamental way
[22:17]before we make any progress.
[22:19]So what is coming next for you, Raven?
[22:20]Are you working on a new book?
[22:22]What's the plan?
[22:23]So, I mean, you write, I'm really excited to start working
[22:27]on my second book.
[22:28]I haven't, I'm not really in the work of that.
[22:30]But I have like a handful of books still in me.
[22:33]And I would love to, you know, whenever I have a moment
[22:35]but currently I'm really taken up with the task of kind of
[22:39]making this, like I was sharing this book into the world.
[22:42]I mean, it is in the world.
[22:43]But I'm kind of just, that's mostly what I'm doing.
[22:46]That's okay.
[22:48]No, no, no, I mean, it's really,
[22:50]that too is kind of a dream, but that could be my work.
[22:53]But I think at some point, when it starts down a bit,
[22:56]I'll be able to get one to work at that stage.
[22:59]I enjoy it.
[23:00]Well, I mean, it all up.
[23:02]It's amazing.
[23:04]Last question, do you have any advice for aspiring authors
[23:07]to aspiring authors?
[23:09]100%.
[23:10]I think a kind of common concern and question
[23:15]that I think that I was trying to, you know, mull over.
[23:20]And also, but I know a lot of writers who were trying
[23:24]to get their work out there are thinking about,
[23:26]which is like, when can I call myself a writer?
[23:29]And I think you call yourself a writer
[23:32]because you're doing the work
[23:33]because you're actively working on your craft.
[23:36]And it doesn't necessarily meet.
[23:39]Like it is really wonderful to receive like
[23:42]affirmation and validation from like, you know,
[23:44]an acceptance from a literary journal now and then, you know,
[23:47]but I do think that, for me, at least those moments
[23:51]were, you know, they were kind of rare, you know?
[23:54]There was much more, much more of a process
[23:57]because I was working, I was doing that private work
[24:00]and trying to figure out what worked and what was sick.
[24:03]And I just, yeah, I feel like the private work
[24:06]is meaningful work.
[24:08]And as long as you are, you were putting in the work
[24:11]that you are a writer, as long as you're working on that craft,
[24:14]you were a writer.
[24:15]So that's what I would say.
[24:17]It's awesome.
[24:19]Well, thank you so much.
[24:20]Sorry for all my distractions.
[24:21]Yeah, I appreciate it.
[24:24]And thanks for sharing everything.
[24:25]I'm gonna think of you next time I'm doing a, you know,
[24:27]mental purge on the page.
[24:28]You're out there doing the same thing
[24:32]wherever you are.
[24:33]And anyway, sharing that connection.
[24:35]So anyway, thank you so much for coming on.
[24:38]Thank you for having me.
[24:39]Okay, have a great day.
[24:41]Last time.
[24:42]Thanks so much to firstbook.org for sponsoring
[24:45]this Labor Day book blast.
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[24:53]serving children in need.
[24:55]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[24:57]to Read Books.
[24:58]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB-O-N's,
[25:01]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[25:10]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[25:13]for the Sound Editing.
[25:14]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:16]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.