Pamela Redmond, OLDER

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[2:07]Pamela Redmond is the New York Times best-selling author of more than 20 books, fiction, and nonfiction, including Younger. Now a television show created by Darren Star.

[2:16]Her new novel, Older, a sequel to Younger, is just coming out. The co-author of a groundbreaking series of books on names, she's a creator of Name Berry, the world's largest baby name site.

[2:27]A former editor in columnist for Glamour, Pamela currently lives in Los Angeles.

[2:32]Welcome, Pamela. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.

[2:36]Great to be here, Debbie. Thank you.

[2:38]Of course, your novel older. This is so funny as a sequel, of course, to Younger.

[2:44]Can you please tell listeners what older is about? And the whole thing is so meta. It's like the book about the show, which was a show of a book. It's so crazy. So tell listeners what this book is about.

[2:56]You know, for a long time, it was difficult to even conceive of a sequel to Younger, because the show takes the original novel so much further in the lives of all these characters and in the situations between them.

[3:10]Lives as lie has been revealed. Everybody knows that she is actually older. And the show is still going on. You know, it should actually be going on the summer.

[3:21]So there is no real end to those characters' lives. So when I had the idea to write a sequel, I thought, you know, it has to be set enough in the future from these characters' lives that whatever is going to happen at the end of the show will have happened and they'll have moved

[3:40]a step or two beyond. And the book, Younger, ends with Alice, that she was called in the original book, becoming a writer, which is what she always wanted to do.

[3:52]And so it made sense that, of course, she would, even though she's a novelist, she would write a romantic clef about this year she spent faking her identity as a millennial.

[4:07]So from there, it kind of was like, okay, so if she writes a book called Younger, then wouldn't Kelsey, who kind of logically might have landed in Hollywood and have made the transition from book editor to TV producer, option that and try to turn it into a TV show.

[4:26]So once I had that set up, the plot kind of unspooled from there. You know, Josh was my character and he's on the scene, but Charles is not my character. So with, you know, really broken heart, I had to let go of Charles, but having a television show made from Younger, I could create a character as an actor who's playing the character with something like Charles.

[4:55]Oh my god, it must get confusing. Like, all the different, you know, it's crazy, the different plot lines and what you made up and what you didn't.

[5:06]Do you really know, but I have to say I have not watched every episode of Younger, what?

[5:12]I know, I'm sorry. I wish I had. I might go do that now. It's goodbye. I think I'm going to take off and do it.

[5:17]So for me, it wasn't as confusing, but I would imagine if you watched every episode or, I don't know, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's not confusing.

[5:24]No, I don't think so. I mean, I have watched every episode and real time, you know, I don't write the show and sometimes they're on star sends me scripts ahead of time, but I don't know what's going to be happening.

[5:38]And I don't think the actors know either. I've read interviews with Hillary deaf, for instance, who's like, I don't know what season seven is going to be about.

[5:48]So, you know, I was only going to, I was kind of trying to guess, but I think you can have read the original Younger, have watched the show and then read older and it makes sense.

[6:01]Totally. I didn't mean to imply your novel was confusing. I just meant that I meant sort of simultaneously following a TV show based on your book and then writing a new book and picking up the title.

[6:12]That's it. No, this novel was not at all confusing. It was hilarious and I loved it and it was just, it was perfect. And even just as a standalone novel, I mean,

[6:21]I'm taking a Kelsey, you said there was a quote that I can't find, but you said, so she said something about how TV is like the new book, right.

[6:32]So, tell me about that and how, like, how has your whole mentality on books in the literary world shifted now that you're watching what's happened to it sort of on the other side of this journey?

[6:45]Great question. I mean, how books used to be sort of the ultimate kind of creative endeavor for anybody who, you know, was sort of interested in fictional worlds and characters.

[6:58]And that has really changed. I mean, you know, television, as everyone knows, has just exploded so much. There's so many shows and so many amazing shows that, you know, bring all these incredible talents to bear on an idea and on characters and, you know, just take it so much further than any book author can. I just, you know, how can I do anything that comes close to what, you know,

[7:28]Darren Starring Sutton Foster and Hillary Duff and Debbie Maser, you know, bring to this idea. But the thing you can do with books that you can't do on television, obviously, or get deep into your characters feelings and into their thoughts.

[7:44]So, and it's a way to explore a theme in a more concentrated way that maybe is easier to grasp in itself.

[7:54]I think that seeing the word theme makes everybody think of high school English and just automatically boring, you know, talking about themes. I do this all day long. I love it.

[8:05]Let's back up a little bit to writing younger because I feel like it provides the context of older.

[8:11]When you wrote that book, like what made you originally come up with that idea and write that book, which then, of course, spawned this book eventually.

[8:20]You know, when the first time I met Sutton Foster, she asked me that question and I told her, all I can think of is this horrified look.

[8:28]She could hear face because I thought I think she expected to hear, you know, a nice story like, oh, I looked younger and people would mistake me for 26.

[8:39]And so, I thought that would be a great story. But the truth is, I was reading the book when I should have been writing and I read a story that extreme plastic surgery.

[8:51]And, you know, apparently you could go to Uruguay or somewhere and get like such extreme plastic surgery that you would look like a totally different person.

[9:01]And as a fiction writer, that was very provocative. And I thought, well, you know, who would do that? Like, why would you do that? Why would I do that?

[9:09]And I guess what I thought is, well, you could, you know, look 25 again or 28 and go back and just start over, you know, leave your life and just go back and start over.

[9:22]And I thought, well, what would I do if I started over? And, you know, I've never looked younger than I am substantially younger than I am. I've never not been a working mom.

[9:36]But it wasn't like I wanted to recapture career, but it was that I thought, I would go back and take my career more seriously as a younger person, you know, to be 25 or 28.

[9:50]I think when I was really that age, I was, you know, wanting to get married, wanting to have kids, which makes a lot of sense, you know, the clock is real.

[10:00]ticking. You don't have very much time to get all that together, but I, you know, I was a 50 year old

[10:06]novelist trying to start and I thought, wow, it would be much easier to do this as a young beautiful

[10:14]energetic person. But then you wouldn't have had this great idea. I mean, you know, you might be

[10:20]young and beautiful. You might look really great writing it, but maybe you wouldn't have as much

[10:24]to say. I love that idea. Look really great writing it. Right? I can just like, you know, a perfect,

[10:30]you know, coffee shop sort of visual, but you know, the words are pretty blank or it's like the

[10:35]same word over and over again. And now, probably if you look that great, you don't want to spend your time

[10:41]alone in a room writing novel. You probably wouldn't be alone for very long in that coffee shop.

[10:48]But anyway, I'm getting like totally off tracker. So you started writing it. You had this idea.

[10:54]By the way, if you could go back, like, what would you have changed yourself aside from like in your

[11:00]personal life? Not necessarily like career wise, but is there one little thing? Is there one relationship?

[11:07]Is there one friendship? Is there one like some party didn't go to you've always regretted? Like,

[11:13]is there just like a little thing from your past that you would like to do a, get a redo on?

[11:19]Redo. You know, I think like a lot of women, I would say I'd be more confident. You know,

[11:24]I'd be more ambitious. I would have fewer self doubts, you know, which is something that I see

[11:31]in a lot of younger women now. You know, it took me all these years to get confident enough to say,

[11:38]this is what I want to do. And I'm going to do it. And it doesn't matter if

[11:42]X or Y doesn't like it or doesn't want me to do it. You know, I would start writing a novel

[11:49]and show it to a friend. And you'll be excited and show it to a friend. And they would say like,

[11:53]ah, I don't really love this. And I would be like, you're right. It sucks. I'm stopping. That's the end.

[12:00]And now I think about that. And it's like, that is terrible. You know, it just seems terrible that I

[12:07]had not enough confidence on my own inner desires or compass to follow that no matter what

[12:14]someone else thought. Interesting. I do love the whole makeover element though, you know,

[12:20]this whole not only can you go back in time, but in this, you know, when Liza comes out of the cabin

[12:24]in Maine and has to like, horrifies her friends and it takes like five hours to whip her into shape

[12:29]again and like, you know, and she's like, no, my hair is fine. And they're like, no, no, no, it's not fine.

[12:36]I feel like that is like, completely like pandemic. It's like how everybody is now exiting their

[12:41]homes. You like captured it here perfectly. It's true. It's true. It's great. But we've all been

[12:50]like, it's sort of camped out. I feel like in that way. I risk my life from my hair to look like this.

[12:55]It's for you. It's totally worth it.

[13:00]Okay, I have to find this funny part. This is when Kelsey and Liza go meet Stella power

[13:05]at her house. And she's like, having total hair in these speaking of hair. And you, and you

[13:10]right, how do you get your hair to look like that? I blurted. She laughed exactly like Barbie might

[13:14]laugh if she could easy compared with sitting around all day being a creative genius.

[13:19]And then you say, I think the hair is harder. I said, I don't really best need it.

[13:25]And then you talk about like Liza's thinning hair and all of this. And then she says,

[13:29]oh, well, some of its extensions. She said, reaching up and filling around as if she were trying

[13:34]to tease out a knit and removed a huge hank of hair. I nearly screamed. Then he go on. And then I had

[13:40]stem cells ejected into my scalp to stimulate hair growth. It's amazing. I told Stella,

[13:44]I'd never heard of such a thing. It's still experimental. Oh my gosh, so funny. It's just like

[13:49]such a Hollywood, you know, parody, the whole thing. It's like, it's just great. And it, of course,

[13:55]goes on and on. So was your experience in Hollywood anything like this? Like, tell me about,

[14:01]like, did you have an initial intro meeting with a star that was anything like this or,

[14:05]or can you not say? No, I mean, I know every star I've had has been very nice. But I think

[14:14]Stella Power kind of oscillates a lot of things that really are true about L.A. or Hollywood life,

[14:19]which is somebody who's very nice on the outside, very beautiful, you know, sweet down to earth. And

[14:29]yet they're, they have a will of steel, you know, and something like, I did meet someone who

[14:37]had those injections in her scalp and said, you know, oh, you'd have to do it, you know, it's,

[14:43]it's the best. And it, I'm from New Jersey. And New Jersey is basically the opposite of L.A.

[14:51]It doesn't, it doesn't look good. People are very harsh, but they're warm and they're real.

[15:00]And in L.A., people are super nice. When I first came here, I thought like, God, everybody loves me

[15:07]here. It's great. And then I found out, okay, you know, maybe they love me. Maybe they didn't. But

[15:14]the way they acted and the way they felt were not necessarily the same things.

[15:19]Yes, there's a lot to be said for some authenticity. So what was it like? And I don't

[15:25]mean to keep talking about this transition. But I feel like having such a big show is like a really

[15:29]big deal. And I ducked to so many authors who are dying to be in your seat. So this is like,

[15:34]you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, I feel like for so many people. So when you found out

[15:39]your book was going to be a show, like, what was that like for you? And how did your life change

[15:44]from what it was before to then now, essentially? Yeah, you know, it was kind of unbelievable.

[15:52]I found out I was actually staying at a friend's house in upstate New York. And I was working

[15:57]on another novel. And it was the day that I finished the other novel. I guess it was 2013.

[16:05]It was the same day. And I found out by reading it on page six. So nobody called me and turned

[16:12]at my agent was a land vacation. And I just sat there reading it like, what is this true? And

[16:21]then of course, I know it's crazy, right? And then the way TV happens, you know, things happen

[16:27]in increments. So the first thing is there is a pilot order. So that's what I read on page six,

[16:34]the show, the pilot had been ordered, I guess. And then it was six months until they shot the pilot.

[16:40]And I think it was the night before they shot the pilot, Darren Starry's assistant, texted me and

[16:47]said, okay, so we're shooting tomorrow. Can you come to this spot? And of course, I just said,

[16:53]yes, you know, I think it was three hour drive from my house. I will be there. And it was just,

[17:00]I do remember this moment of standing in this room. And it's the first episode of the show,

[17:06]lies a selling her suburban house. And so, you know, the scene is that there's a real estate

[17:12]agent shown people her house, which I don't think was actually been in the book. And I was standing

[17:18]in the corner of the room. And they're like, you know, 150 people in this suburban living room

[17:23]standing around watching the actors. And it was just so surreal because I also remember the moment

[17:30]that I had the idea, you know, it was a very discreet moment. Not like, well, some ideas kind of

[17:36]more over time. This idea kind of landed in my head like from outer space. But that was

[17:42]incredible that all these people were making the show. And then the fact that it was

[17:48]a great shit that got picked up for a season and then it got 40 for second season was just,

[17:54]you know, that was pretty surreal. So it has changed my life in the sense that people know

[18:02]who I am, which they might not, if, you know, most people say to authors like, oh, would I

[18:07]have read anything you've written? And, you know, usually unless you're John Brisham,

[18:12]or something the answer is no, you have no idea. People don't notice the names on books or on

[18:18]magazine articles. You know, I've written over 20 books. I've written hundreds of not thousands

[18:24]of magazine articles. And I think I've met one person in my entire life who's directing this

[18:30]my name. But people know the show. And so it's great to sort of get that moment of recognition

[18:37]or credibility. That's been good. It's such a shame. I mean, people might know the names of your

[18:43]books. But for people all over, you could be like, I think about this all the time. And I'm like

[18:47]wandering around the city or I'm like, sitting in a restaurant. I'm like, that person could have

[18:51]like written the book. This is before I did what I do now. But like her notes like that could be

[18:56]like the biggest person ever. And I just wouldn't even recognize them. Like a friend and I joke

[19:01]that we should start a magazine that was like celebrity picks of authors. Like who are they wearing?

[19:06]And you know, like because really what authors do is so, I mean, it's no less of an accomplishment

[19:13]than what the writers for TV do. I mean, no offense to writers on TV. But like everybody should be

[19:18]equally sort of allotted. But they're it's so disproportionate. So I don't know. I'll get off my

[19:23]soapbox. But well, it's a pretty, it's a pretty anonymous profession. Now I, maybe some people

[19:29]become authors because they want to be famous, but that would be a very misguided reason.

[19:34]Yes, that's true. Matter of fact, you know, maybe people like the anonymity. So maybe I should,

[19:39]you know, I've kicked my soapbox to the side now altogether. Forget it.

[19:44]How has this experience changed your writing? If at all has it changed what you want to write

[19:49]about how you write? Well, that's a really interesting idea. I mean, I think it's been

[19:54]really helpful and useful to be this exposed to and become this familiar with how

[20:00]television shows put together.

[20:01]I love taking writing classes.

[20:03]And so I always take a lot of writing classes of all kinds.

[20:08]I find them just stimulating and ending.

[20:12]And so I've taken a few TV writing classes.

[20:14]And those have really influenced me

[20:16]to plan a lot more, create a much more details

[20:21]outline and really think through the story

[20:23]in terms of plausibility and causality,

[20:26]in a way that a lot of writers or novelists

[20:29]are not ready to do or used to doing.

[20:32]So that's been very helpful, yeah.

[20:35]And are you done with these set of characters now?

[20:38]With this book or do you foresee more books about them

[20:41]or totally different types of things?

[20:44]You know, I'm writing a new novel now.

[20:46]And I'm in the middle of that.

[20:47]It's totally different characters.

[20:49]But the theme of age is one that, you know,

[20:53]I've realized at some point that I've written about

[20:56]in several different ways.

[20:57]I had a blog at one point called How Not to Act Old.

[21:01]And that became a book.

[21:02]And that was a Times Best Selling Book.

[21:04]And that came out from a totally different angle,

[21:07]which was a humor book.

[21:09]I was, for a long time, a columnist for glamour magazine.

[21:13]And I wrote a column called 30 Things Every Woman

[21:18]Should Have to Know by the time she's 30.

[21:20]And that was very age related.

[21:22]And that became this sort of viral internet list.

[21:27]So it's something that even like long before

[21:30]I was actually an old person myself,

[21:33]I was thinking about age and how age influenced your life,

[21:38]your perception of yourself, you know, for women,

[21:40]I think it's obviously so different than for men.

[21:44]And how you plan your life and how you fulfill your dreams

[21:50]as a woman is so connected to age.

[21:53]You know, you have these very short window

[21:55]in which if you want to get married and have children

[21:58]or just have children, you really can thought,

[22:01]you have to do it in this really tight time frame.

[22:04]And as you know, and, you know,

[22:06]I'm assuming a lot of people who are watching know,

[22:10]being a mother is extremely tight and soon.

[22:13]You know, when I had my first child,

[22:16]I was an editor glamour.

[22:18]I was working on a novel at night when I was pregnant

[22:22]and then the baby was born.

[22:24]And it was like, okay, so I have a full time job

[22:27]and I have a baby, that's the end, you know?

[22:32]And it was many, it wasn't until I had three children

[22:35]that 11 years apart.

[22:37]And it wasn't until my third child started kindergarten

[22:41]that I started writing fiction seriously.

[22:44]And it's a funny, this fall, or you know,

[22:47]my little guy, I have four kids,

[22:49]he's first to start kindergarten.

[22:51]And like in my head for the last five years,

[22:53]I've been like, I just have to get him to kindergarten.

[22:55]And I'll have all this time and now it's like a joke

[22:58]because like no one's gonna be at school at all.

[23:00]And anyway, I guess I know we'll have to wait.

[23:04]Now I'm kidding, but it's like, yeah,

[23:06]the ability to stop getting interrupted so much

[23:09]cannot be underrated.

[23:10]The people being able to just focus and get stuff done

[23:14]oh my gosh, yeah.

[23:15]Took you literally and figuratively free.

[23:18]I think we may actually go to kindergarten,

[23:20]you feel free and awake down

[23:22]if they're just with the babysitter.

[23:24]Yes, totally.

[23:25]Now that has been taken away from me

[23:27]and I am in mourning.

[23:28]I would be, I would be really beside myself.

[23:33]I remember that last week of August every year,

[23:36]that was the verse, just like mating, mating, mating, mating.

[23:40]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?

[23:46]Well, what advice I'd give long these lines,

[23:49]especially the women, is it's not too late.

[23:53]I think you look forward to that day

[23:55]when your youngest is in kindergarten,

[23:58]thinking it will be easy then,

[24:00]but then your in your 40s maybe or in your 50s

[24:04]as I was, I guess I was in my 40s.

[24:07]And it's scary, you know.

[24:09]It's scary to start something new at that age

[24:13]and you can kind of talk to yourself out of it

[24:15]and think like, oh, everybody's young,

[24:17]they're so far ahead of me, you know,

[24:19]I remember I signed up for a class in novel writing

[24:23]and, you know, I take one 20, 25 years before in college

[24:28]and I remember sitting in the parking lot about you.

[24:31]I was so nervous, I was really almost sick.

[24:34]I thought to, you know, put myself out there

[24:38]as a beginner again after a career as a journalist.

[24:43]I didn't know what I was doing.

[24:45]I thought, you know, they're all going to know how bad I am.

[24:48]I'm going to know how bad I am.

[24:49]You know, I'm going to find out how bad I am.

[24:51]And I think that fear is enough to stop you,

[24:55]but obviously I don't think you should give into that.

[24:59]You know, I think you should come through it

[25:01]and I went to the class and there were a lot of people

[25:03]in my age actually, as well as younger people.

[25:06]So, yeah, I don't let that stop,

[25:09]don't let the age think stop you is one piece of advice I give.

[25:14]And it is rare, it is American thought, it's not a sprint.

[25:17]I see people who are trying to write something new

[25:19]and they're like, well, you know,

[25:21]been writing this thing for three months

[25:24]and I don't know, is it ready to publish yet?

[25:27]And I think that and I think about that too, you know,

[25:30]you kind of have your eye on the product

[25:33]and it really should be on the process, you know,

[25:37]on getting better, on getting used to it,

[25:40]on learning how to write fiction in a way

[25:43]or whatever you want to write in a way

[25:46]that will truly be both satisfying to you

[25:49]and commercially viable.

[25:51]Interesting.

[25:52]I just did an interview with Fiona Davis

[25:54]for her new book about the New Republic Library

[25:56]and the story there and I was joking around

[25:59]and I was like, they should produce greeting cards

[26:01]that say like, happy 40th birthday,

[26:04]welcome to your 40s, now you can write a novel.

[26:06]Because I really feel like, yes, of course,

[26:09]people of all ages write novels,

[26:11]but I feel like there's something about getting

[26:14]a little bit older that just changes everything

[26:17]and makes for much better fiction.

[26:18]So I actually think this is such a great thing

[26:21]for women as we all get older to know that it's there.

[26:24]Like there's no rush and I don't know,

[26:27]sometimes time, you know, can feel overwhelming

[26:30]if it seems like there's too much of it, right?

[26:32]It's like so in demand and then it's like too much.

[26:36]But knowing you can feel it all with writing

[26:38]and that like this is your time.

[26:39]Like I think there should be a public service announcement

[26:41]about it.

[26:42]Like now it's time, you go, so anyway.

[26:45]Yeah, you know, I've been thinking recently

[26:47]that I'd like to do a class specifically for women

[26:51]over 40 on starting your first novel or your first book

[26:56]because I think it is a special thing, you know,

[26:58]in terms of your self image, in terms of just, you know,

[27:01]being a beginner at something that's really hard, you know,

[27:05]it's like it's like trying to become

[27:07]the intellectual equivalent of a ballet dancer

[27:10]or an Olympic athlete.

[27:11]You know, it's really hard to write a novel,

[27:14]but it's so rewarding and so much fun

[27:16]and anyone can do it.

[27:18]Yeah, and a lot of those other things.

[27:19]I mean, I think my ballet days have passed.

[27:22]So many things are now off the table.

[27:25]It's nice to know that something has been added in

[27:28]that maybe you didn't have the spotlight shining on before,

[27:31]but it can be really rewarding

[27:33]and also help other people, so.

[27:35]Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway.

[27:37]Well, thank you.

[27:38]Thanks for coming on, Mom.

[27:39]It's been a time to read books, to talk about older.

[27:41]Thank you also for just making me laugh.

[27:43]I really needed that and your book was really funny

[27:46]and clever and smart and just, I just needed that laugh.

[27:50]So thank you.

[27:51]That was great.

[27:52]Well, thank you.

[27:53]Thanks for reading it and in prayer to be here.

[27:56]I love what you're doing.

[27:57]Thank you.

[27:58]Thank you.

[27:59]Okay.

[28:00]Thank you.

[28:01]Bye bye.

[28:01]Bye bye.

[28:03]Thanks again to Jump Start, whose campaign read for the record

[28:07]begins this fall.

[28:08]Go to read for the record dot org

[28:10]to purchase Ellen Del Rey's moving away,

[28:13]to help donate and support a classroom in need

[28:15]and help Jump Start reach their goal

[28:17]of achieving early literacy for everyone.

[28:19]Thanks for listening to this episode

[28:21]of Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[28:23]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans

[28:26]and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[28:28]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com

[28:30]and sign up for my virtual book club

[28:32]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[28:35]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound

[28:37]for the sound editing.

[28:38]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[28:40]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.