Capricia Penavic Marshall, PROTOCOL
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[1:56]Capricia Penavic Marshall served as a White House Social Secretary in the Clinton administration,
[2:02]and as United States chief protocol in the Obama administration.
[2:06]In her posts, she advanced the president's agendas using new tools and innovative
[2:10]protocol methods to build relationships between dignitaries and industry leaders worldwide.
[2:15]She oversaw the diplomatic details of state visits and summits such as the G20,
[2:19]the Nuclear Security Summit, APAC, NATO, and the Sunnyland Summit.
[2:23]She's president of Global Engagement Strategies LLC, which advises global organizations and
[2:28]companies on issues related to the nexus of business and cultural diplomacy in her clients,
[2:32]include Bloomberg, 3M, and other Fortune 100 companies. As a first-generation American,
[2:37]she has brought an understanding of the importance of culture to her posts and consultations.
[2:42]She's an ambassador and residence at the Atlantic Council in Washington, DC,
[2:46]and a partner in Pine Island Capital Partners. Her book is called Protocol,
[2:51]the Power of Diplomacy, and how to make it work for you.
[2:54]Welcome, Capricia. Thank you so much for coming on Moms. Don't have time to read books.
[2:57]Thank you. Thank you so very much for having me. I really appreciate it.
[3:01]I'm so excited to discuss protocol, which is basically all the best stories about world leaders
[3:07]in the world tucked into one tiny little container, which is great. It's like you take the reader
[3:12]everywhere that they would never have access to and give us great lessons. So it was
[3:17]it was a joy to read. Very much. And you know, that was like purposeful. In the sense that I
[3:24]wondered to absolutely be a how-to. I did not want it to be memoir-esque. I think there are also
[3:30]a lot of people who leave their jobs in Washington, DC, and they write these tell all books,
[3:36]and that was not the objective. That was not my intent. My intent really was I wanted to take the
[3:42]many years that I had in government and hold the lessons and the tools that I created over the
[3:48]years, but match them up with, you know, interesting anecdotes. So it brings to light those tools
[3:53]and lessons. And oftentimes, and I hope you found them very humorous. I did. I did. I did. They're
[3:58]great. Even just something as cool as like, I don't know, Obama just like putting his arm on your
[4:03]shoulder and asking for your advice. I don't know. It's just like the way you talk about it. It's
[4:07]like, sure. Yeah. I'm used to Obama just coming over and, you know, asking what I think too.
[4:12]I don't know. It was very relatable. It's like you could put yourself in your shoes and all of
[4:15]your stories. So that was great. Thank you. Thank you. So for people who don't know about your
[4:21]amazing career, can you give a couple highlights about your tenure in the White House and all the
[4:28]things that you have been in charge of just as a background? Sure. Yes. So, okay. I, first of all,
[4:35]I got into government through the political campaign. I had started on the 1992 campaign for
[4:42]President Bill Clinton, for governor then Bill Clinton, and very smartly decided to work for his
[4:49]wife, because he went to see him as though he had much of a chance of becoming president. But she
[4:54]was a top 100 person lawyer in the country. And I thought, you know, as someone who had recently
[5:00]graduated from law school, that's the one I really should get to know. And so started working with
[5:06]her, became incredibly close to her. She became my mentor. And so when he won, she and the president
[5:12]offered me a position in the White House, which I was her special assistant. And that meant that I,
[5:17]I did everything with her. I started the day with her and I ended the day with her. We traveled
[5:21]around the world together. And I was also the bridge for her to the social office. So when the first
[5:27]social secretary had decided that she was going to depart, he'll return to me. And she asked me if
[5:32]I wanted to take on that post. And I was incredibly honored that she did, of course. And so I do have
[5:40]to say that at first, I wasn't quite sure that I was ready to take on the job. You know, many of
[5:46]the women before me had, you know, they were older, they were more experienced and seemed. And
[5:51]I just didn't have a lot of confidence in myself. And this is where my mentor and other women
[5:57]who were part of my, you know, my circle of supporters pushed me up raising up. They said, no,
[6:03]this is time. You are going to take this position on. You are going to step into this job and you're
[6:08]going to be fantastic. Don't worry. We're going to be here for you. We're going to be your safety
[6:12]nut. It's not, you're not going to, we're going to have to let you alter. It's almost really,
[6:16]really lucky that they did. You know, I was very, very blessed to have that. And they did just that.
[6:21]And so for me, it was a dream job. I loved it. And the job very quickly, it manages the entire
[6:27]domestic agenda for the president in the sense that we visually put out the agenda to the world.
[6:33]So if it was a social occasion, if it was a, a government, if it was a policy initiative,
[6:38]whatever it was, we were making sure that through events, through interactions that the world
[6:45]was allowed to experience this. And it was extraordinary, extraordinary on so many levels. And I thought,
[6:51]wow, I really hit the peak of, of government service in that position. But then when President
[6:57]Obama was elected, he then reached out to Hillary Clinton to become his secretary of state.
[7:02]And she said to him, I have your perfect chief of protocol. I am telling you, you have to hire
[7:08]a professional. Well, I didn't know him. I didn't know him. I really didn't know a lot of people
[7:12]in the administration. At first, there was a little like, ah, wait a minute. I don't know. We
[7:17]don't know this woman. And because the chief of protocol spends a lot of time with the president,
[7:21]a lot of time. I mean, you're hooked at the hip when you travel abroad. And I am the person who
[7:27]welcomes everybody to the United States. So it's a job that is, you know, very, very important in
[7:32]that regard and having that special relationship. Well, he took president, I mean, the secretary
[7:38]Clinton's advice and, and her recommendation and named me and it comes with the rank of ambassador.
[7:45]So I was then put forth before the Senate and was voted in and given the, given the position. So,
[7:52]and it's an extraordinary job. It has so many facets to it. And like I said, if there's the
[7:57]visits aspect to it, but there's a huge ceremonial aspect to it, we oversee the president's guest
[8:02]house. I also oversaw, which an element of this job that I wasn't quite aware of is that
[8:08]I also oversaw the present, the diplomatic core, the foreign diplomatic core, making sure that they
[8:13]got credentialed, making sure that they behaved when they're in our country. And if they didn't,
[8:18]I had to help. And then just engaging with them. So the job was just phenomenal. It was my dream job.
[8:25]Wow. So how do you go through all those experiences and not get too nervous? Like, how do you
[8:31]meet all the world leaders? And how do you remember? I mean, part of your book outlines, like,
[8:36]just the detailed level of things you have to remember about every country and how a tiny
[8:41]thing wrong. I mean, obviously there are some bigger mistakes, like not that they were your fault,
[8:45]but like hanging a flag up, say down or having it appear that way. I know you did. And that was
[8:49]amazing. But there's like, you know, every country is so different. Every leader is so different.
[8:53]And how do you keep it all like top of mind and present in such a calm, like dignified way,
[8:59]no matter what? Like, what if you're having a bad day? Like, how do you tuck that away? How do you do it?
[9:05]Well, what protocol drives you to do is to be ultimately prepared. And it isn't that that you're
[9:14]able to keep it as you put it all together. You know, I made sure I had to make sure that I did
[9:20]all of the research, my homework, the background checks, because I had to advise the president.
[9:25]I had to advise the secretary of state, the vice president on, you know, cultural nuances,
[9:31]directives in a meeting all in how to engage in a way that was going to pivot the power in
[9:38]their direction. So there was a lot that went into the before they even thought about stepping
[9:44]into the room. There's so much preparation that went into that. And for me, and I believe this
[9:50]wholeheartedly that when you are prepared, it takes the stress out of the situation.
[9:56]There's a roadmap that's sitting before you go, okay, I've almost got my personal
[10:00]ways here and I can drive my way through this engagement because I know when to stop, when
[10:06]to turn, what to do next.
[10:09]It's when we go in it when we're sort of, you know, chucking it to the wind that we can
[10:14]get lost and chaos happens.
[10:16]It's the uncertainty that can cause the stress, the anxiety and for things not to go the
[10:22]way that it should.
[10:23]I say, bail the plan plan to fail and why wing it.
[10:27]But then what do you do in times like this where we can't plan anything?
[10:30]Well, again, that is where I think protocol really comes into play.
[10:36]We are in a fog right now.
[10:38]People are certain people are scared, frankly.
[10:41]They don't know what to do.
[10:42]They don't know how to behave.
[10:43]They don't know, you know, how to interact again and I'm missing it.
[10:47]They're really missing the human interaction.
[10:49]Well, you know, when you're, you set forth your plan, you know, first of all, am I, am I
[10:54]abiding by the rule of the regulations of my city town, you know, is it 10, is it 50?
[10:59]How many people can come together?
[11:01]And then giving people advanced notice.
[11:03]I'd love to have you over for a cocktail.
[11:06]We're going to be outside in my backyard.
[11:08]There will only be six couples or six people rather.
[11:12]I will make sure that appetizers are individually plated.
[11:15]I went to an ambassador's residency other day and we sat outside and he had sort of an
[11:21]open veranda there and it was so elegant.
[11:25]His wife is amazing.
[11:26]He's the ambassador of Singapore and his wife, Corey, just so elegant.
[11:29]But interesting food from Singapore on individual plates served, you know, with glove
[11:35]to hands.
[11:36]It couldn't have felt more safe to my husband and I and we were so appreciative of it.
[11:42]In advance, they asked, you know, have you had any interactions that we should know about
[11:47]because he has to be, he's a diplomat, he has to be concerned.
[11:50]You just have that give and take, it's both sides, it's the host and the guest being
[11:56]respectful to one another and really informing one another so that you can enjoy each
[12:01]other's company.
[12:02]It's true.
[12:03]Yeah.
[12:04]It's like the more visibility you have into everything, the more peace of mind you can
[12:07]bring with you.
[12:08]100%.
[12:09]I love how in your book you say that not only were you an expert on the world stage,
[12:14]but that like anytime you go to a dinner party, people grab you and take you into the
[12:17]kitchen to ask you for your advice.
[12:19]That's like so classic because I could totally see if I were good friends and somebody
[12:22]who was at your job to be like, okay, what do I do with these place cards here and everything
[12:26]else?
[12:27]Never mind did it, ever, ever anytime anybody asked, it's sure, okay.
[12:32]What's like the most applicable thing that you took away from your whole government experience
[12:37]that you feel like you can use in the day to day interactions in your own life or like in
[12:41]your close friends lives?
[12:42]Like what's like one of the most important tips that you got out of it?
[12:46]You know, it was actually a lesson that I learned from both Presidents Clinton and Obama.
[12:52]They are the two most empathetic people that I've ever met in my entire life.
[12:59]They understood that the importance of leadership was not derived from being strong and
[13:04]decisive.
[13:05]Yes, they are that because they are the president of the United States and leader of the
[13:09]free world.
[13:11]But it's from putting themselves into the position of the person they're speaking with,
[13:16]the person that they're helping, the group that is lost.
[13:20]And by drawing upon empathy in particularly today where people are feeling confused, uncertain,
[13:29]we have this whole new dialogue, these discussions, sometimes hard discussions on race.
[13:36]How can we learn more about one another?
[13:39]What did I think I know, I knew, but perhaps I didn't quite know and by engaging in this
[13:45]discussion and learning more about you, boy, I'm going to become a better person.
[13:51]I certainly am going to know more about the topic and figuring out ways to create those bridges
[13:57]of understanding.
[13:59]It's really important.
[14:00]So the two of them, that was one lesson that they really taught me in abundance.
[14:04]Yeah, I guess if I had a lot to do with presidents, I would try to store away any tips
[14:08]tips that they had.
[14:09]So I could throw this back out.
[14:12]You know, one thing I was struck by in your book was also the importance of environment
[14:16]and how even just how you set up a room for a meeting can have a massive effect on the
[14:21]outcome and how people approach it and go into it.
[14:24]Can you talk a little more about that and even like high and low ceilings in the positioning
[14:27]of the tables?
[14:28]Tell me about that.
[14:30]Well, that's the superpower protocol.
[14:32]The superpower protocol are these micro moves that have a major impact.
[14:38]Before I to illustrate it, I tell this that, you know, when I traveled with the president
[14:42]to Mexico for the G20, he was going to meet with President Putin and this was their
[14:49]first meeting when Putin regained the presidency and there was so much drama involved
[14:55]in this and that everything was so tense.
[14:58]I went to the NSC to get the brief agenda of the meeting like I usually did.
[15:04]So I could figure out what exactly do we need to do here?
[15:06]How does protocol create this framework for diplomacy to take place?
[15:11]So then I'm meeting with him and I'm waiting to greet him and he's running late and
[15:19]that's frustrating and really kind of sets you off and finally arrives and that was a mental
[15:25]mind game on his part.
[15:26]That was a deliberate move on President Putin's, I am sure, greeted him and then escorted
[15:32]him and made our way to the room.
[15:35]Well, upon greeting I do the introductions, you know, to the president and we had heard
[15:43]that he was hopeful that Secretary Clinton was not going to be in the meeting because
[15:48]he, the two of them had a bit of back and forth going on about the recent election and
[15:54]so President Obama, he's so funny this way, he's big, tall, he's greeting him, he's
[15:59]going to stop society, he goes, oh, hello, if you met my Secretary of State and
[16:05]unveils Secretary Clinton, well just in that moment again, again, the mindset of diplomacy,
[16:11]you know, you could tell there was a hint of surprise by President Putin that there
[16:17]she stood and didn't think that maybe she was going to be there and so that sets a
[16:23]move, that sets a tone, well then, you know, we escort them into the room, we design
[16:28]that protocol designs the room and, you know, from the table to the decor on the table,
[16:33]to the lighting in the room and to, as you put it, the size of the room and we wanted
[16:37]the size to be small.
[16:39]We wanted President Putin to feel forced into this discussion.
[16:43]We wanted him to feel like his back was almost literally against the wall and because
[16:49]they needed to come together, they needed to lessen the gap and their differences on
[16:55]some of these hardcore issues and, you know, we learned after that we had rigged the
[16:59]room well because they did actually come together on many of these issues and so we felt
[17:06]like protocol one the day that day.
[17:09]And then you also point out when it totally failed, like with the meeting with the Chinese,
[17:13]I think that's who it was afterwards, how that meeting was set up improperly, am I getting
[17:17]that right?
[17:18]And it was with President Putin, it was, okay, I'm sorry, it was in another location
[17:22]and it was just in a tent that was big and vast and the way that the two presidents
[17:28]were seated next to one another, they clearly were, it was awkward the way that they
[17:32]had to turn the space allowed for their to feel as though there was no connectivity between
[17:40]them.
[17:41]The interpretation was that all of the elements just did not work.
[17:46]And again, the read out afterwards was they were far apart in any of the issues of
[17:52]importance that, you know, United States and Russia need to come together on.
[17:57]We don't always agree with our counterparts and we certainly aren't going to always agree
[18:01]with our counterparts, but that's what diplomacy is about.
[18:05]It's about creating those relationships, it's about getting, discussing those hardcore
[18:09]issues and figuring out a way that we can come closer together and have a better understanding.
[18:16]So if you were going to design, let's say you have to have a difficult conversation
[18:19]with somebody in your own life.
[18:21]You have to keep taking your amazing advice on the global scale and taking it down to
[18:25]my tiny little life.
[18:26]But let's just say you were going to plan like a meeting that where you had to negotiate
[18:31]something, for instance, with somebody and you might not have the same points of view.
[18:35]How would you design that environment from the protocol standpoint?
[18:39]What can you do to make the environment more like your Mexican event versus the other
[18:46]one?
[18:47]First of all, bring people to a place that matters to you.
[18:50]Whatever, if the discussion is about, you're meeting with a new client, you bring them
[18:56]to a room in your office or your home that showcases a bit about that business and what
[19:03]you've done.
[19:04]Maybe it's a founding document or an award that you just won.
[19:08]You make sure that those are displayed and you're there and that they know that I want
[19:12]to bring you, you know, I'm going to bring you to my office where I have a lot of money
[19:16]and I don't bring many people but I really want and they know they're going somewhere
[19:20]special.
[19:22]And then in that room itself, make sure that you've judged it up, you know, have a, have
[19:27]the seating so that when they're, you're discussing it's a, it's a one-on-one, you're
[19:32]looking at one another, it feels comfortable and perhaps having, I'm a big believer in
[19:38]having a little notch to make sure that food is an element in things that it's very welcoming,
[19:44]it's very inviting, you know, no matter how we are engaging, it could be with a friend
[19:49]and a personal matter, it can, like I said, be with someone of importance to our business
[19:54]and, you know, they feel very welcome, they feel very respected by those gestures, those
[19:59]small...
[20:00]details again really begin to add up.
[20:02]So true.
[20:03]So tell me about what made you write this book.
[20:05]I know in the book you talk about how everybody was always
[20:08]asking your advice and telling you to write one,
[20:09]so you were finally like, OK, fine.
[20:11]But how did it happen exactly?
[20:13]And then what was the process like for you writing it?
[20:16]So on my last day, I have to say I sobbed so hard.
[20:21]I'm for President Obama's shoulder.
[20:23]I think I saturated it.
[20:25]It wasn't just, it was just the saddest day.
[20:27]I did not want to go.
[20:29]I love, love, love, love for my job.
[20:30]And he kept trying convinced me to stay.
[20:32]It was very, very sweet.
[20:33]But I knew as a mother that there was a 13-year-old boy
[20:36]who really needed his mom a little more involved in his life.
[20:40]So I did leave.
[20:41]But when I left, I did join the private sector,
[20:44]and I started to engage a bit with clients.
[20:46]I joined the Atlantic Council, a think tank here in Washington,
[20:50]D.C.
[20:50]And I noticed that people were having a really hard time
[20:55]developing those relationships that matter in their business,
[20:59]that mattered in their lives.
[21:02]Finding those threads of connectivity,
[21:04]they just, it wasn't easy to come about for them easy.
[21:07]And so I was like, wow, this is what I did.
[21:11]You know, for presidents and secretaries of state.
[21:13]And so I thought I'd have to put these lessons and tools
[21:17]down with interesting anecdotes that I can.
[21:20]I could help people in doing that and sharing it
[21:23]with individuals.
[21:24]One to really talk about why is it important
[21:27]to invest in that relationship?
[21:29]How can you respectfully invest in that relationship
[21:32]so that you then can build those bonds of trust?
[21:36]And from bonds of trust then,
[21:37]your goals are going to come.
[21:39]Those desires that you have in that relationship
[21:42]will be an eventual end-game for you.
[21:45]And so how did you go about writing this book?
[21:47]Did you outline the whole thing?
[21:48]Did you sit like what was the process of this structuring?
[21:52]And then the actual sitting down and writing it?
[21:54]Well, I'd like to say it was a first go
[21:57]and that was it.
[21:58]My name wasn't.
[21:59]I have a great editor at Go.
[22:02]I also had a wonderful collaborator.
[22:04]And it was interesting in the first sense,
[22:08]the way that I thought the book should be structured.
[22:11]My editor, I remember I submitted the entire outline,
[22:15]send it to her, was so proud, so excited.
[22:18]And she called me, I was so proud
[22:20]and I went off on a trip to Spain.
[22:22]And she calls me on my trip to Spain.
[22:24]She's like, oh, we need to talk.
[22:26]And she's like, I'm not understanding where these,
[22:30]I know you understand it, Capricia.
[22:32]But this is complicated stuff you're talking about.
[22:35]And I need for you to explain it to us
[22:37]in a way that is going to be a lot more relatable.
[22:40]And I realized that suddenly that I wasn't communicating,
[22:44]I was communicating like protocol officer
[22:46]to protocol officer and not to the world at large.
[22:50]And so redesign of it and then thought through,
[22:54]these are the tools that I used for the physical way
[22:58]in which you can engage with people.
[23:01]Here are some communications tools that I used.
[23:05]And then here are those mindset tools
[23:07]that I implemented and I used.
[23:09]And so then I divided the book up that way
[23:12]and put all of those in order.
[23:15]And then I realized actually at the end,
[23:18]when I finished that there was one more chapter,
[23:20]I really felt was important to include.
[23:24]And there was negotiating while female.
[23:26]And I felt that was important to include.
[23:29]And I had to fight for it with my editors.
[23:30]She says, oh, this is an outlier.
[23:32]I'm not sure that this works like,
[23:33]oh, no, I promise you, it will work
[23:36]because all of these tools and lessons
[23:38]for everybody, man and women.
[23:40]But they do apply it slightly differently for women.
[23:45]And there are some nuances that women must know
[23:50]so that they can gain that advantage
[23:52]so that they know, we are in a constant state
[23:56]of negotiation as women, always in everything that we do.
[24:00]So how can I game out here?
[24:02]How can I get the advantage here?
[24:04]And I really wanted to devote that chapter
[24:08]to help women in that regard.
[24:10]Would you write another book now that you've done it?
[24:12]Like, did you enjoy the process?
[24:14]I did.
[24:15]I did.
[24:15]You know, actually my editor reached out to me
[24:18]and she's asking for me to do a fall-up
[24:20]in today's environment.
[24:21]So I'm going to be starting while I'm still promoting
[24:26]this one, I'm going to start drafting out a new one.
[24:28]That's great.
[24:29]Yeah, when I was reading this, you had a lot of things
[24:31]that I was like, ooh, what would she say now?
[24:33]Because you're, you know, physical contact or shaking hands
[24:36]or all these things.
[24:37]And I was like, wow, wouldn't that be nice?
[24:39]You know, if we can still do that.
[24:41]But that's great.
[24:42]Excellent.
[24:43]Would you have, do you have any advice to aspiring authors?
[24:46]Golly, you know, if you have an idea, go for it.
[24:49]Go for it.
[24:51]What's most important I learned is that draft
[24:55]that you put forth and that you send around to publishing
[24:58]has everyone thinks you've got to write the book
[25:00]and then send the book out.
[25:01]What's really important is doing this synopsis
[25:04]of what this book is about being as clear
[25:06]and as defined as you possibly can be in that synopsis.
[25:10]So that when those publishers call and say,
[25:13]hey, I'd like to talk to you about your book,
[25:16]it grabs their attention.
[25:18]And then you can do a deeper dive in the personal
[25:21]and then you can expand it out when you start to write the book.
[25:24]But that's really, really important.
[25:26]And I loved the personal stuff that you included.
[25:28]Like it was so interesting to hear about your family
[25:30]and your parents and how they met.
[25:33]I mean, like the whole building of different cultures
[25:35]and going back to where your father grew up.
[25:37]And it was really neat.
[25:38]It's great to have that kind of context
[25:41]when you're hearing anybody's sort of professional life
[25:43]to have the personal as such a nice sort of antidote to that.
[25:46]So thank you so very much.
[25:47]I'm so glad to hear you saying that
[25:49]because it was in my core.
[25:51]It was the home that I grew up in truly helped me appreciate
[25:56]the difference of culture and the difference of people
[25:58]around the world and wanting to then
[26:00]when I had the great opportunity on the global stage
[26:03]to shine a big old spotlight on those beautiful differences.
[26:06]So I guess that's the trick.
[26:07]If you want to raise a chief protocol officer,
[26:10]find somebody to marry from a different culture.
[26:12]And then your child will have better luck at it.
[26:14]So ready at home.
[26:16]Thank you so much for all of your time
[26:20]and thanks for your great book
[26:22]and all the tips that you gave for lay people like me
[26:24]and everyone else to thank you.
[26:26]My absolute pleasure.
[26:27]Thank you so very much for having me.
[26:29]My pleasure.
[26:30]Have a great day.
[26:31]Thank you.
[26:33]Here, I'll be thinking of you.
[26:34]Thank you so much.
[26:35]Bye bye.
[26:35]Bye.
[26:37]Thanks again to today's sponsor,
[26:39]book next, go to book next.com.
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[26:44]of your middle grade subscription box.
[26:46]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have
[26:48]Time to Read Books.
[26:49]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:51]at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:54]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[26:57]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:59]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:01]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[27:04]for the sound editing.
[27:05]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:07]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.