Nefertiti Austin, MOTHERHOOD SO WHITE
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[1:56]I hosted a book club for Hay Mama, which is an organization for women's CEOs and entrepreneurs,
[2:03]and other just badass moms. Anyway, Nefertiti Austin wrote a book called Motherhood So White.
[2:10]It's a memoir about adopting her son and so much else, and I got to interview her for the book
[2:16]club, which is really fun. And here's a little more about Nefertiti.
[2:19]Nefertiti writes about the erasure of diverse voices in motherhood. Her work around this topic
[2:24]has been shortlisted for literary awards, and appeared in the HuffPost, mother,
[2:28]the establishment, modern Mia, essence.com, adoptive families magazine, PBS, and PBS parents.
[2:35]She was a subject of an article and recent adoption in The Atlantic and appeared on
[2:39]HuffPost Live, and one bad mother, where she shared her journey to adoption as a single black
[2:44]woman. Nefertiti's expertise stems from firsthand experience and degrees in U.S. history
[2:49]and African-American studies. Nefertiti is a former certified PS map trainer, where she co-led
[2:54]classes for participants wanting to attain a license to foster and or adopt children from foster
[2:59]care systems. An alumni of Breadloaf Writers Conference and Vona, her first two novels,
[3:05]Eternity and Abandoned, helped usher in the black romance genre in the mid-1990s. I hope you
[3:11]enjoy our conversation. So welcome to all of you, and thanks for listening to our little conversation
[3:16]here, and welcome Nefertiti, and thanks to everybody for having us. Thank you. Happy to be here.
[3:22]I feel like you used so many nicknames in your book. I used to be called Tina and then you were
[3:27]Nef and whatever, but I'll use your whole name because we just met, so it's okay. Okay, all right,
[3:31]that's fine. I can have a vision, you know how this goes. Yeah, I get it, I get it. And thanks to the
[3:38]few of you who are here tonight and watching and everything, so that's great. So Nefertiti,
[3:43]for the people who don't know, can you please tell everybody what your book is about and what
[3:48]inspired you to write this memoir? All right, so again, I'm Nefertiti Austin, and I wrote a memoir
[3:55]motherhood so white, a memoir of raised gender and parenting in America. And I started writing
[4:02]because when I was ready to be a mom, I knew I wanted to adopt, I knew I wanted to be a mother,
[4:08]and knew I wanted to adopt a black boy from the foster care system. And so I'm such a nerd,
[4:14]I'd love to read and I was looking for books and this is like the height of all the modern wars,
[4:19]and I was quickly disappointed when I found that most of those books didn't include me. I was
[4:27]nowhere on the page. I was looking for, I mean, there's certainly lots of universality within
[4:33]but there are cultural nuances, and I was looking for myself. I couldn't find myself on the page,
[4:40]and I began writing, and so like my early writings were really sort of like a rage against the
[4:46]machine, you know, rage against publishing, just racism with and parenting and adoption. And over time,
[4:52]I really was able to kind of hone in on what it was really trying to say, and basically what I'm
[4:59]wanting to say, and I hope the message is clear, and that is that we have so much power as
[5:05]mothers, and I would love for all moms, but especially white mothers who still have a large,
[5:13]the lion's share of the market, like in the parenting genre, to be open to alternate perspectives
[5:18]and experiences that are very crucial and critical to what's happening in the world. So that's the
[5:24]impetus for how I began writing about motherhood. And you wrote about it so beautifully how you
[5:32]rolled August into the library, and you were like, can I please have the books here on Black
[5:37]parenting? And they were like, yeah, no, we've got nothing. And you like kept going, you're like,
[5:41]now I'm going to the big box bookstores, and now I'm going to the independent bookstores, and
[5:44]you looked everywhere, and there was just nothing. You couldn't find a thing. And I think you
[5:48]were just like, flabbergasted by the lack of material that was already out there. And of course,
[5:53]I say that's the best book to write when you like look for it on the shelf. It's not there,
[5:56]you have to just go do it. And that's essentially what happened. I was surprised, I remember a
[6:01]couple of oldies, like from the 80s and Rebecca Walker had a book out, and one can one essay
[6:10]collection, and there was like one little chapter on adoption, but in the scheme of things,
[6:14]though, it was just really, very startling and surprising that in the 21st century that I could
[6:19]not find modern narratives about women who looked like me. But your book was so sort of multi-layered,
[6:25]because you tackled so many topics. So it's not just that there weren't books about people that
[6:30]look like you. It was the fact that you that in the, as you would say in the book, like in the
[6:35]Black culture, adoption of somebody you didn't know is just like not done, right? Like everybody
[6:40]was like, what do you mean? Nobody, you're not, you're adopting somebody you don't know,
[6:44]because you obviously, as you wrote about, so beautifully, you were basically, you were adopted by
[6:49]your grandparents who raised you, and that that's very common, right? And it's less common to go
[6:55]into the foster care system and be like, you know what, I'm going to be an angel, and I'm just going
[6:58]to adopt somebody, I'm going to foster care somebody. And that's what I'm doing. And you met with
[7:02]so much resistance. Tell me about that cultural backlash you got when you even set your mind
[7:08]on doing this. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is I've such a free spirit, and every time my family
[7:13]expects me to, you know, go left, I go right. So I don't know why they were so surprised,
[7:18]basically, culturally, we tend to take children. We know we start, we look within. So we start with
[7:24]nieces and nephews and grandchildren. And if there aren't any children who are in need and those
[7:30]spaces, then often you see a lot of that within churches, within the neighborhood. And so it's really
[7:38]giving families an opportunity to maintain a unit, even if the parents maybe live down the street,
[7:45]or maybe they're not blub related, but there is some type of connection. And so I didn't have that
[7:52]option within my family. And because I wanted to adopt, I really had no choice but to go outside
[7:57]my family. And so the question I still get when I share that my children are adopted from
[8:04]Black people, especially older Black people, do you know their people? That's always the first
[8:09]question. Do you know them? Do you know their people? Because somehow that makes it easier people
[8:14]understand that, oh, okay, this is something you do. Okay, we understand that. And whenever I say,
[8:20]well, no, I didn't. I don't know their people. And I went the foster care route. I got quite a few
[8:28]double takes. And largely it's because children in the foster care system are negatively
[8:34]stigmatized. And they have a really, really bad reputation, especially in the press. And they're
[8:39]kind of written off as like, you know, the lowest of the low, leftover children, rejects. And
[8:45]that couldn't be further from the truth. And so I just ignored all of that and did it anyway.
[8:51]Amazing. Tell me about your own family. So you grew up in a family in which your father ended up
[9:00]being, well, why don't you tell everybody a little bit about your background? Because there are a
[9:05]lot of different ways to go. And you have parents who weren't there for you in one way or another,
[9:10]which a lot of parents aren't able to be there for their kids, whether it's your drug addiction or
[9:16]incarceration or whatever else. But you can respond to that in a lot of ways. And one way is not
[9:21]necessarily that you want to double down and create an amazing home life for your kids. But one
[9:26]way is that way. So tell me about how you felt like your own personal experience influenced your
[9:32]because I feel like there was so much of that in the book that was so important. So my parents
[9:37]were very young when they married and actually I was born before they got married and they were
[9:42]part of the black power movement in the 60s. So all that has happened in the last few months.
[9:47]And you know, certainly over the years, but definitely, you know, beyond Taylor and my
[9:52]and George Floyd, my my parents would have been in the street out front with Black Lives Matter.
[9:58]And so they
[10:00]for young and radical.
[10:01]And like many people during the 60s and 70s,
[10:05]they took drugs.
[10:06]And unfortunately, they both had drug addictions.
[10:09]And it splintered our family.
[10:12]My father went to the penitentiary.
[10:13]My mother went to rehab.
[10:15]And even though she eventually kicked her drug habit,
[10:20]her lifestyle was very unstable.
[10:22]So my brother and I went back and forth between my grandparents
[10:25]and my mom, one summer with my dad.
[10:28]And I was just a lot of back and forth.
[10:30]And finally, around I was nine, my brother and I officially
[10:35]went to live with grandparents.
[10:36]But they did not adopt us.
[10:38]Because again, in the black community,
[10:40]there's no need to get adopted.
[10:42]We had a very informal arrangement.
[10:45]Our entire family invited by the new configuration,
[10:49]which essentially meant that my grandparents were my parents.
[10:54]And then my mother and father, over time,
[10:57]it really became like siblings.
[10:59]They didn't have a lot of authority in terms of where
[11:03]I went to school.
[11:04]They couldn't really get me out of trouble
[11:05]if I got in trouble for doing things.
[11:07]So it was just like, OK, instead of my grandparents raising
[11:11]three children, they ended up raising five of us.
[11:14]And so that was my orientation to you
[11:19]could raise a family and not have given birth to the children.
[11:25]But I didn't connect all of those dots
[11:28]until I was actually writing my memoir.
[11:30]And then it was sort of like, oh, OK, these seeds,
[11:33]this legacy had already been established in me.
[11:37]And when I was ready to become a mom,
[11:39]it was just sort of like all of this stuff
[11:41]came flooding forward for me.
[11:44]And it made sense to me to adopt.
[11:47]And I feel like you had so much practice
[11:48]after taking care of your brother.
[11:50]I mean, you talk about, in the book, how you would
[11:52]like get up on a chair and reach down for the cheerios.
[11:55]I know I mentioned this to you the other day.
[11:56]But that image is like seared in my mind.
[11:58]It's just so cute.
[11:59]Like you were just like, your parents were passed out
[12:02]or whatever.
[12:03]And you were like, well, it's time for breakfast.
[12:06]Somebody had to do it.
[12:07]Oh, yeah, I remember that well.
[12:08]Yeah, yeah.
[12:09]I thought there were so many other interesting things in your book.
[12:12]One thing was the cultural resistance
[12:16]to seeking therapy, which I didn't even really realize.
[12:19]I mean, I hadn't really even thought about it particularly.
[12:22]But you were saying that when you went to seek therapy
[12:26]yourself and people in your family and whatever
[12:29]are saying, like, don't tell your secrets to a white person.
[12:32]Like, don't do that.
[12:33]That's like, no, no, no.
[12:34]So tell me a little more about that.
[12:36]Well, we still have a lot of resistance
[12:39]to seeking mental health and speaking of which, OK,
[12:42]I'm sure you can't miss Kanye West.
[12:44]I mean, he's all over the news of his craziness.
[12:46]And I don't mean it negatively.
[12:48]And I don't mean to offend by using the phrase craziness.
[12:51]But he definitely has a mental illness.
[12:54]And I don't know if he's bipolar or what his diagnosis is.
[12:56]But he's certainly living out loud a lot of what happens
[13:01]every single day.
[13:02]And in our community, our go-to is, oh,
[13:07]that person needs to go to church.
[13:08]So maybe you talk to the pastor and somehow
[13:11]the pastor is demonstrating you out or, oh,
[13:13]that person just needs to relax.
[13:15]Or, oh, we come up with all of these excuses,
[13:18]everything except for what we need.
[13:20]And that is an impartial person.
[13:22]It's to help us sort through our feelings.
[13:25]And there's so much trauma in our community.
[13:28]I mean, we certainly have survived enslavement
[13:32]and mass incarceration and segregation
[13:34]and all of these things that have happened
[13:36]and continue to happen.
[13:38]And it's a lot to carry.
[13:40]And I think that we pass it down.
[13:43]And we pass down these feelings about getting
[13:45]health.
[13:46]And we are very distrustful of the penal system.
[13:49]We are distrustful of the medical system.
[13:52]I mean, if we have legitimate reasons
[13:54]to be weary of and distrustful of.
[13:56]And when it comes to our mental health,
[13:58]we are still very resistant about getting that type of health.
[14:02]And I think we are afraid that, A, if we tell white people
[14:05]our business, then it will give them more of a reason
[14:08]to mistreat us.
[14:09]And B, if we say some of the things we're feeling out loud,
[14:13]if we're feeling depressed, or if we're feeling stressed,
[14:15]or tired of those things, then it's real.
[14:18]If we say it out loud, so we hold it in,
[14:21]or we overeat, or we drink, you know,
[14:23]just as other people try to manage themselves
[14:27]instead of seeking health.
[14:28]So it's a huge problem now.
[14:30]And I really hope more of us will seek counseling.
[14:34]And so I was in law school, which I didn't finish.
[14:37]I didn't have any business being in law school,
[14:39]but I was there.
[14:40]And my mother was thinking of breaking up with her husband
[14:44]and coming to LA.
[14:45]And I just felt like she's getting ready
[14:48]to ruin my world because she had been gone.
[14:52]And I was trying to figure out, you know,
[14:54]I wanted to be a writer, but I'm in law school
[14:56]because I had said, oh, I want to be a lawyer.
[14:59]And I'm trying to honor what I said I would be
[15:02]and make my grandparents proud.
[15:03]And then my mother is going through her drama.
[15:06]And she was going to bring it to me.
[15:08]And I just needed someone to talk to about it.
[15:11]And I knew within my family, I couldn't do it.
[15:14]And he immediately, my brother and my aunt, you know,
[15:18]why would you do that to your mother?
[15:20]So then it became about her feelings
[15:22]instead of my own and what I was dealing with.
[15:24]And you know, God bless my grandmothers.
[15:27]She was in my corner.
[15:28]And she was like, you have to do what you have to do.
[15:30]And I'm so grateful for that.
[15:32]And I'm a huge fan of therapy and just good stuff.
[15:35]I mean, truth be told, you could have written the whole book
[15:37]about your relationship with your own mother.
[15:39]Like that would have filled multiple books in and of itself.
[15:44]And I have feel like I have read books like that,
[15:47]coping with a narcissistic mother.
[15:50]I mean, you talked about when you started writing novels.
[15:53]So you pivoted from law school.
[15:56]You started writing fiction.
[15:58]You also had a job.
[16:01]Now you have an adopted child.
[16:03]You'd like to do a million things.
[16:04]And then your mom comes walks again
[16:06]as like many moms that I perhaps know
[16:09]or have definitely read about would do
[16:11]and makes it all about her.
[16:12]And you're like, could I have one day?
[16:15]Just one day.
[16:17]Tell me about that scene that night.
[16:19]And the effect of sort of the world being about her
[16:23]and how that affects you as a child.
[16:25]Okay. So which time?
[16:26]Are you talking about my first book signing that one?
[16:29]Yes.
[16:30]Okay. Okay.
[16:31]So my mentor was an assembly member at the time.
[16:35]We were able to get the California
[16:36]African-American History Museum beautiful venue.
[16:39]And so, you know, I'm in 20s.
[16:41]This is this is huge.
[16:42]I'm excited.
[16:43]And my grandfather flew my mom out
[16:47]and used to it at the time to come to the signing.
[16:51]So I live, you know, let's see.
[16:53]I wasn't living at home.
[16:54]So I must have gone to my grandparents' home
[16:56]and, you know, to say hi.
[16:58]And all of a sudden, my mother's like, you know,
[17:01]so you didn't want me to come.
[17:03]And it was just so bizarre out of nowhere
[17:07]as usual, which made everything about her.
[17:10]And I think I thought I was gonna pick her up
[17:14]so she could ride with me.
[17:15]And I left and I just drove myself.
[17:17]And when I got there, I had an amazing time.
[17:21]And, you know, you have to say a few words
[17:23]and thank people for coming.
[17:24]And I had thanked everyone and I had gone to sit down
[17:27]and went to a bus site.
[17:29]He didn't thank your mother.
[17:30]I was like, oh, yeah, yes, I had to go back up and thank her.
[17:33]And it was just, you know, it was one more thing.
[17:36]It was an afterthought for me because I always felt like,
[17:39]and I told her this, you show up for the good stuff,
[17:42]for my cotillion, you know, for the book signing,
[17:45]for graduation, that sort of thing.
[17:47]But just on a regular Tuesday or Wednesday,
[17:51]like you're not there for just a regular mundane things
[17:55]that happen in my life.
[17:56]So it's very resentful for many, many years.
[17:59]And we had a very cold relationship.
[18:00]And it was, the ice was on my part
[18:02]because I was just like, I'm done.
[18:04]I just, I don't understand, you know, what is your point.
[18:07]And she was trying and really pushing for a relationship.
[18:09]And I wasn't interested.
[18:11]And it took me probably six years
[18:13]really after therapy before I kind of really got like,
[18:16]no, for real shoes or sister.
[18:18]And you don't have to have like this close relationship.
[18:21]Like it's okay.
[18:22]And then I was able to let all that stuff go
[18:24]and keep moving forward with my life.
[18:25]I mean, I think the perk really,
[18:27]if anybody in the world out there
[18:29]has a narcissistic mother, it means you can write
[18:31]an amazing memoir.
[18:33]That is like the hallmark of a great story.
[18:36]So anyway, at least you have that to mine
[18:39]in addition to other things.
[18:41]And I felt like you did such a great job in the book
[18:43]of explaining the whole process of just how much it takes
[18:47]to adopt to become a foster parent, all of the steps.
[18:51]Like I feel like we all know this, right?
[18:53]It must be a lot of work.
[18:54]But the contrast of just like spontaneously
[18:58]basically having your own child
[18:59]and the hoops that you have to jump through
[19:02]in order to become a foster parent.
[19:04]And then finally in adopt a parent
[19:06]and all of the decisions you had to make
[19:09]on the classes and is this special needs child,
[19:12]is this my baby or is this not?
[19:14]And those painful decisions.
[19:16]What was it like having to go through all that
[19:19]and tell me how your resolve to do it
[19:22]just kept building the more you went through?
[19:24]I think it was definitely nerve-wracking at times
[19:28]and probably my saving grace
[19:30]and this is what under thirds my resolve.
[19:33]It's just been very organized.
[19:35]So I was clear.
[19:36]So I knew I wanted to be a mom
[19:38]and that was, okay, I could cross that off my list.
[19:42]I was ready.
[19:43]And then I was a very organized person
[19:45]so that definitely helped kind of keep me calm.
[19:48]And my best friend, she's an adoption social worker.
[19:51]And so I could certainly call her and talk with her.
[19:54]But you know, the process is what the process is.
[19:56]And I basically just kind of talk to myself.
[20:00]Like, we're gonna get through this, you know,
[20:02]I'm going to get to the other side of it.
[20:04]And as long as I remain focused on my goal,
[20:07]which was to adopt a little boy,
[20:09]and then later a little girl,
[20:12]then everything will be fine.
[20:14]And in the meantime, it just has to give the people
[20:18]what they're asking me for and just remain
[20:20]as flexible as I certainly could.
[20:23]But there's a lot.
[20:24]I mean, there's parenting classes
[20:25]which were certainly invaluable.
[20:27]I enjoy those as well.
[20:29]I think those classes really sort of also took
[20:32]like that last sort of edge off of my relationship
[20:35]with my mother because I finally got,
[20:37]well, if my mom could have,
[20:39]if she could have done better,
[20:41]she would have, you know, I definitely believe that.
[20:44]And so that was very helpful.
[20:46]And then in preparation for the children
[20:48]who are in foster care,
[20:49]they kids who they're typically for neglect
[20:52]and for abuse.
[20:54]You know, most parents are not looking at their child
[20:57]like, I don't want you,
[20:59]and I'm just gonna toss you to the system
[21:00]that typically does not happen.
[21:03]And I knew that any child I got was wanted.
[21:06]And for whatever reason,
[21:08]could remain with their family.
[21:10]So I remain focused on that.
[21:13]And that made it easier to get through,
[21:15]oh, another set of forms that I need to complete.
[21:18]Oh, another psychological evaluation
[21:20]by the social worker.
[21:22]Oh, I have to go and get CPR certified.
[21:25]Okay, I can do this.
[21:26]Oh, my friends have to write letters of recommendation.
[21:28]Okay, I can do these things.
[21:30]And so I just roll with it
[21:32]because I knew it would end at some point.
[21:34]Another interesting element of your book
[21:36]is how you talk about race and gender,
[21:39]not just in terms of adoption,
[21:40]but in terms of how you feel about all of that.
[21:43]And one part was so interesting.
[21:46]Well, two parts really.
[21:47]One, the Clarence Thomas situation
[21:50]where you had to decide between,
[21:52]do I stand by a woman?
[21:54]Or do I stand by the idea of getting a black man elected
[21:57]to the Supreme Court?
[21:59]And then again, when Obama was running against Hillary,
[22:03]do you support?
[22:04]So tell me a little about that
[22:07]and how you felt like your allegiances
[22:09]as a feminist woman essentially,
[22:11]and also a member of the black race
[22:15]who wants somebody else to be represented in front and center,
[22:18]how those conflict and how you ended up deciding
[22:22]to support and how to make up your mind about those things.
[22:26]Yeah, that was really a wild time.
[22:29]You know, 1991, I was coming out.
[22:31]I had just graduated and it was a recession.
[22:35]And I remember I didn't have anything to do
[22:38]except watch the hearings,
[22:39]the confirmation hearings,
[22:41]and being very concerned that,
[22:44]wow, it's black people miss an opportunity
[22:46]to have a black person on the Supreme Court,
[22:49]like we may never get this opportunity again.
[22:51]So I had, you know, reservations about Clarence Thomas,
[22:56]but at the time I thought, okay, I got to vote my race.
[23:00]And so that's something that I think as black men and women.
[23:05]No one ever says that,
[23:06]but it does imply through everything we learn,
[23:11]you know, Dr. King single-handedly did all these amazing things,
[23:14]and it isn't until you become an adult
[23:17]and you do your wrong research where you learn,
[23:18]oh no, there's a whole army,
[23:20]and typically of women, you know, behind these great men
[23:23]that we hear about who did all of this work.
[23:25]And so there's a lot of folklore within our community.
[23:29]And so I also didn't have a reason to doubt
[23:35]I need a hill, but again, I, you know, at that point,
[23:38]and I'm young and I'm thinking,
[23:40]I got to put my race first.
[23:42]And so then, you know, fast forward a decade in some change
[23:45]and I have matured and I have way more life experience.
[23:48]And I began to see things a lot differently.
[23:51]And so I was like, oh, okay, here's an opportunity
[23:54]to, you know, put my gender first
[23:57]and put my feminism and my thoughts about the world
[24:02]and equity, inclusion and things like that first.
[24:05]And so I went in like, okay, you know,
[24:08]let's see what the other has to say.
[24:11]I'm open, this sounds good, you know,
[24:13]woman president, oh my God, this being fantastic.
[24:16]And then as I learned more about, you know,
[24:18]the insulator Obama, I was like, oh, okay, well,
[24:22]he and I have a lot in common.
[24:24]He was also raised by grandparents.
[24:27]I felt like I had a personal connection to him.
[24:29]And I was opposed to the more on Iraq from the beginning.
[24:34]And so was he.
[24:35]And I got a better understanding,
[24:38]a deeper understanding of who would get the privilege
[24:42]to represent me.
[24:43]And I wouldn't be blind anymore.
[24:45]And I wouldn't be taken for granted anymore.
[24:48]I would allow myself to be taken for granted anymore.
[24:51]And I would no longer make decisions solely based upon my race
[24:55]or my gender, I would do my homework.
[24:57]And that's definitely what I did.
[24:59]So it was a huge awakening for me.
[25:01]And it helped because I knew I wanted a little boy.
[25:04]And I was another question I got was,
[25:06]well, why would you want a little boy?
[25:08]You're a single woman, you know,
[25:10]you're educated, you've been places, you know things.
[25:12]You could really impart those lessons
[25:16]and fill a little girl.
[25:17]And that's what you should be doing.
[25:19]And that's the child that you should pursue.
[25:23]And I had, and all of those things are true.
[25:27]But at that point, and I still think I'm
[25:29]at the right decision, I do have a daughter.
[25:31]And that's a wonderful experience.
[25:33]I'm so happy to have her.
[25:35]But at that moment in 2006, I thought
[25:39]there's so much negativity around Black males.
[25:41]And I want to do this.
[25:44]This is my community service.
[25:46]And this is nothing to do with Clarence Thomas.
[25:48]And nothing to do with Obama.
[25:50]This is about me and about a woman being able to make
[25:54]a difference.
[25:55]And this will cover everyone.
[25:57]Amazing.
[25:58]I was also struck by, well, by so many things.
[26:02]And your book, but as your son was getting older,
[26:06]how the men in the community felt like it was their duty
[26:10]to sort of take what you called their misogynistic views
[26:15]and sort of hard them on how soft he was getting
[26:18]that you had a child, boy, and Beverly Hills.
[26:20]And what was going to become of him.
[26:22]And he should be doing this.
[26:24]And you had this whole section in the book
[26:26]where it was like me, them, which was like fantastic.
[26:31]So here you are doing all this stuff to raise a Black boy
[26:35]to become a Black man in America.
[26:37]And yet all the Black men in America
[26:39]are like chastising you about one thing or another.
[26:41]What was that like for you?
[26:43]It was actually pretty funny.
[26:44]They still tease me.
[26:46]We're so friends.
[26:47]And oh, my God, they used to get on my case
[26:50]about how I dressed him.
[26:51]How I was holding him.
[26:53]And I said that he put him down, let him walk.
[26:55]And he needs to toughen up and, you know, all of these things.
[26:59]And it's funny because he's still the same little kid.
[27:02]He is very tech driven.
[27:05]And he's still very much into science.
[27:07]And he's a sensitive child, still very intellectually curious.
[27:13]And so he's not that dude.
[27:14]He was never going to be that dude.
[27:16]And they were doing their best to make him into,
[27:19]I don't know what they thought they were going to do,
[27:20]but they were so funny.
[27:22]And so we laugh about that.
[27:24]I feel like there's nothing more blatantly
[27:27]nature, nurture than seeing a child who now you've adopted.
[27:31]And you can tell, like kids come with their own programming.
[27:36]I don't know.
[27:36]I have four kids.
[27:37]And as I've had more and more kids,
[27:39]I've realized the more kids I have, the least effect,
[27:41]I feel like I have on them, like they are who they are.
[27:45]And August was born the way he was.
[27:47]And nobody, you know, a fist bump instead of a hug,
[27:51]was not going to change who he was.
[27:53]So I feel like you have this unique point of view
[27:55]of what really it means to raise a child
[27:59]how like sort of like humanity at its core.
[28:02]Yeah, they're so funny.
[28:04]I mean, you know, I definitely wholeheartedly
[28:06]of re-boys need men.
[28:07]They absolutely need men in their lives
[28:09]and their conversations that a man can have with a boy
[28:12]because he used to be a boy.
[28:13]I certainly can't have.
[28:15]And I have no ego, you know, no issue saying,
[28:19]oh, you should talk with someone so about this
[28:22]because you know, they were 12 or they were nine
[28:25]and they can kind of walk you through these,
[28:27]or they can roleplay when, you know,
[28:28]the kids tease each other back and forth.
[28:30]And so I'm like, oh, you should talk to someone
[28:33]so about that.
[28:34]Let them help you come up with some singers
[28:37]that you can get your friends with.
[28:39]So, you know, we certainly need them in in our lives
[28:42]and I'm grateful that we have a really great group of men
[28:46]that are still part of our lives that support all the kids.
[28:50]It's amazing.
[28:51]So tell me a little more about writing this book.
[28:53]How long did it take?
[28:54]Where did you write it?
[28:55]How did you find the time to do it?
[28:56]How did you decide how to structure it?
[28:58]Like, tell me all the incidents, you know,
[29:00]in the couple of minutes of how you ended up writing the book.
[29:04]Well, originally, I thought I had a collection of essays.
[29:08]So I started writing about race and parenting
[29:10]and adoption in 2009.
[29:12]And so over time, I had slowly but surely a mass
[29:16]of fair number of articles.
[29:17]And so I thought, okay, I'll just expand on different topics.
[29:21]Like, when you adopt a child, they suggest strongly
[29:24]that you not change the child's name.
[29:27]You want to honor their identity.
[29:28]So I changed both of my kids' names.
[29:31]And so I had a whole essay about, you know, names
[29:35]and naming within the black community religion
[29:38]was another something that I wrote about.
[29:41]And I had an agent and we worked together
[29:45]for a couple of years.
[29:46]But we ultimately parted ways because I don't know
[29:51]that she was necessarily comfortable
[29:53]with the racial aspect of what I was writing about.
[29:55]And I kind of felt like she was taking me away from that.
[29:59]And...
[30:00]So to didn't understand that the whole point is that Black mothers are moms too and we have
[30:08]experiences and we want to be part of the conversation etc. So then I got a new agent and we were
[30:16]on board with this collection of essays and she says I think you're going to have to make this
[30:23]a narrative. So I say okay great I can do that and she sells the book and the first draft was
[30:31]75,000 words and it was super academic and I was so proud of all of these discussions and
[30:38]intersectionality and racial hierarchies and motherhood and breaking down Virgin Brown and all
[30:43]these things and the editor says to me this is good and you know this is great but we need your
[30:50]story and I know you are a private person but you're going to have to tell us your story you're
[30:55]going to have to share who you are so the next version and that was hard for me I had to like you
[31:01]know kind of like okay okay okay but I was up for it so the next version I just laid everything out
[31:07]there and then she said well you don't have to tell everything so that's how it went from a very
[31:13]academic you know essay driven style book to what we have now which is sort of a linear
[31:19]discussion of why came to me how I came to about and how do you feel having been such a private
[31:25]person to then have your whole life story out into the world? Well it's easier with strangers
[31:33]because I'll never see them again and most of the people I don't know and that's great it is
[31:40]scary it was scary when my friends and family read my book more of my friends less my family
[31:46]that was definitely scary because they knew some things but they didn't know everything and so
[31:51]I did get a lot of text messages a lot of phone calls I didn't know that you know you never said
[31:57]anything you know you kept that to yourself why didn't you ever see anything and I didn't know
[32:01]not until a lot of stuff I just kind of kept it moving and but I'm proud of the work I did I'm proud
[32:06]of being honest and I stand by what I wrote and you know I'm okay with it I feel like you know
[32:13]10 years for now five years 15 years of what have you is nothing for me to be embarrassed about so
[32:19]I'm proud of that embarrassed when you say no not at all you should be super proud of this book
[32:25]it was great it was really a really great but what do you have coming back like would you want to
[32:29]write more are you writing more books are you going back to fiction like tell me what's your what's
[32:34]your life plan these days well I it's funny I had a conversation with my agent this morning about
[32:40]that we're just trying to figure out like next steps and what would make the most sense I started
[32:46]on a book for children in foster care I met a librarian last year and she asked me to write it's
[32:52]just like there aren't any books for children in foster care and my experience as a foster parent
[32:58]was fairly limited because I got my children when they were babies but I thought that was a great
[33:02]idea and you okay so you mentioned having an artist assistant mother and how you could write a
[33:07]a book on that so that's actually gonna be my next book so you you guessed it writing about mothers
[33:16]and daughters and I was talking with her this morning just like yeah I could three or four
[33:22]pages worth but she asked a great question she's like what is the story that you are afraid to
[33:27]tell and that's such an interesting question and I thought oh I can build a book around that so
[33:32]I think that'll be the next one I cannot wait to read that book that sounds amazing
[33:37]do you have any advice for aspiring authors I think the best advice I can give is a writer does two
[33:44]things you know read and write and that's super important it's important to read books in the genre
[33:52]that you are interested in and to do your homework so the other thing is if you have a vision you
[33:59]have an idea for something to not get discouraged I mean as a writer your work is wanting to get
[34:05]edited people are not done necessarily like what you write so you do have to be open to constructive
[34:11]criticism but don't give up if you have an idea if it's important to you I think you should write
[34:16]your story and people get caught up in oh my god it's gonna take 10 years or I've been working
[34:20]on this book for 20 years that's fine it takes as long as it takes so true a girlfriend I'm
[34:26]from college just texted me like an hour ago she's wrote this romance novel with another friend
[34:30]of hers and it took them 10 years and she's like we finally got an offer on our romance novel
[34:35]it's such a journey and I was like that's what it's like it's like what it's like right so
[34:40]always such a journey so just keep at it thank you now for to you thank you so much thanks for your
[34:47]amazing memoir motherhood so white thought provoking well written researched awesome just really
[34:53]great I'm so glad I got to know you through the book and now in this venue so thanks for coming
[35:00]onto the hey mama book club thanks for hey mama book over having me and thank you all for joining
[35:05]tonight so thanks thank you so much for having me and I'll certainly check out your upcoming events
[35:10]awesome come on thanks again to today's sponsor book next go to booknext.com zibi 20 is the code
[35:19]to get 20% off of your middle grade subscription box thanks for listening to this episode of moms
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[35:39]at texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing
[35:44]this fantastic intro and out trim music