Heidi Pitlor, IMPERSONATION
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[1:25]Thank you, booknecks for sponsoring. Heidi Pitler is the author of the novels The Birth Days
[1:30]and the Daylight Marriage, which was optioned for film. Her third novel in personation will come
[1:35]out on August 18th, a former senior editor and Mifflin Harcourt. She has been the series editor
[1:41]of the Best American Short Stories since 2007. She's also the editorial director of the literary studio
[1:46]Plimpton. Her writing has been published in The New York Times, The Boston Globe,
[1:50]Lit Hub, Plowshares, The Huffington Post, and elsewhere she lives outside Boston.
[1:54]Welcome, Heidi. Thank you so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books.
[1:58]Thank you so much for having me. It's really exciting to be here.
[2:02]Congratulations on impersonation. Your latest book is coming out. Tell visitors what it's
[2:09]about and what inspired you to write it. Please, sure. So it's coming out in about a month. So I'm
[2:13]in this terrified place right now of everyone. I hope they don't hate it. In personation, I have
[2:18]the galley here in early coffee. I love it. I love this cover because it's just unforgettable
[2:24]and just the right amount of weird for me. So this book is about two minutes about a
[2:29]ghost writer, a single mom ghost writer who has been hired to write a memoir for a prominent
[2:36]woman's rights advocate. And the advocate lawyer, brilliant woman, has kind of designs on running
[2:44]for office but needs to soften her public image. And it's been deemed that she needs to publish
[2:49]a memoir of motherhood. But she works all the time and she doesn't have quite enough mom stories.
[2:53]So she ends up relying on the ghost writers' own stories. And there's this funny interplay of
[2:59]whose stories are real, who's the better mom? Of course, no one's the better mom. We're all great
[3:04]and terrible in our own ways. But it really is about their relationship but also motherhood
[3:08]about this single mom to avoid how much she loves them and feels that she's failing them because
[3:14]she can't earn enough money. So that's the sort of brief plot summary. I try not to go on too much
[3:19]because who wants to hear too much plot summary, right? I mean, it's such a great plot and it
[3:23]was such a great book that I feel like you could just keep going. You just want to hear more.
[3:28]So where did this come from? How did you arrive at this for this novel of years?
[3:33]So I first my last book was really dark and twisted. So I thought I wanted to write about happiness
[3:39]and as you know, any writer finds, you start writing about that and slip slide down to misery
[3:44]at all times. But I wanted this one to be a little more comic and a little more just about
[3:49]someone who's just trying to basically be happy and live in decent life and not that complicated.
[3:55]I had some financial struggles. I've had some over the years. I think people think people in
[3:59]publishing and writing are just rolling in it. We're not like everyone else. So I was interested in
[4:04]that. I don't read a lot of fiction about that. So you know, I started this a while ago. I started
[4:09]this. My last book came out in 2015. I probably started this around that. And so right before the
[4:15]election was ramping up and things like gender and class and politics weren't quite as
[4:20]electric as they became over. So writing it felt like I started in a light room and then a disco
[4:26]ball came on and then I was like put on drugs. It was just the craziest thing because everything
[4:31]of changing around me in a set in the present day. And I just, you know, when I ended up doing a
[4:37]setting at end point, which really helped, which was 2017 and saying, I can't, you can't write to
[4:41]the present yet you're never finished. The present never stops. So, so I did that. And what else
[4:47]did I want to write about in this book? I wanted to write about a flawed mother who really loved
[4:53]her kid. I feel like there's a lot about maternal ambivalence lately, which is very understandable
[4:58]depression. But I wanted to write about someone who loved her kid who enjoyed sex and was
[5:03]struggling with money. And because I felt like these were things that were not really in enough
[5:08]books lately. There you go, you have to write the book you want to read. And one last thing,
[5:13]I wanted it to feel like nonfiction. So I did a lot of research that kind of dots its way
[5:19]through the book. I wanted it to feel like a real memoir. And I hope it did in the end, but a memoir
[5:24]of writing a memoir. And I wanted to get at the hell that is writing and the hell that is earning
[5:30]money in motherhood. And my biggest hope is that it gets at that and makes reader moms feel a little
[5:37]less like weirdo, especially younger moms. Totally. I feel like every book makes me feel a little
[5:42]bit less weird. Maybe I like to read. No. No, it's a connection and reading other people's experiences
[5:52]and thoughts and worries. I mean, there's just nothing like it. I mean, I don't know. I find it
[5:57]that there's just like seconds. It's second to none. It's like amazing. So tell me about ghost
[6:04]writing. So I thought that was such an interesting angle. And actually, I ghost wrote a book in like
[6:08]2005. This is forever ago. So I'm well aware. And then I thought maybe that I would do that for a while,
[6:14]but then I had twins and we both have twins who are. I want to interview you. So my twins just turn
[6:21]13. They're here. What? June 14. Okay. So minor. Well, they didn't just turn. Mine will be 14 in
[6:29]November. Okay. So they're 13. So you have the double thing similar. Double thing. Yeah.
[6:35]Double thing. Yes. That was that was so is fun. But anyway, I was pregnant with them when I was
[6:41]ghost writing this book. And I was doing like interview after interview trying to like capture the voice
[6:46]that people whose book I was writing. But then when I was reading your book, I was like, well,
[6:49]this is so interesting. Even like how you decide which projects to take. And the fact that there
[6:53]can be a book on the shelf. Like my book didn't do particularly well, but like the book that, you know,
[6:57]that's in the library that she sees someone reading. And it's like one, it's just scream out like,
[7:01]I wrote that book. But I mean, I got to put my name on, which was fine, but, but this whole notion
[7:07]of ghost writing. So have you done ghost writing yourself? Did you research people who had done
[7:11]ghost writing? How did that part of the plot come to me? Now, I'm really restraining myself from
[7:16]turning this interview on you because I want to hear about your book. If we can return to that
[7:20]at some point, that would be. Okay, ghost writing. I've done a little and that's all I can say.
[7:25]not a lot though. But I feel so I am the series editor of the Best American Short Stories. And so
[7:30]what I do is I'm kind of like the worker B and I work with a big famous writer every year to help
[7:35]pick the best short stories that were published that year. They go in an annual. So I felt like
[7:40]I know what it's like to kind of work behind the scenes with a bigger higher profile person. And that
[7:45]relationship really interested me, especially between women because there is a power dynamic.
[7:50]I've been lucky. I've had amazing guest editors. I don't think I've, I haven't felt
[7:54]taken advantage of by anyone, but I can imagine it happening. So that was a starting point.
[8:00]I think ghost writing is fascinating too because it gets at so many different things. It gets at
[8:05]class. It gets at authenticity, identity, gender, all of this stuff. And it just felt really right
[8:12]to me. And the best thing was, so I interviewed a bunch of ghost writers for this book across
[8:18]again, young, old business, you know, celeb. And the greatest part about that research is they
[8:24]know how to write. So they knew exactly what details to tell me. You know, they were like, okay,
[8:27]write this and make sure this happens dead in the plot because they could write this stuff. And
[8:32]they're sleeping and like, this is the best idea for a book ever. I don't even have to write it.
[8:36]I'm just going to take notes from ghost. But there is a really interesting thing. And the
[8:41]power dynamic is not what you think because well, the big famous person certainly hold the obvious,
[8:47]you know, is earning more the public face. There's a bit of a marion net like thing that happens,
[8:52]I think with ghost writers in that they're controlling the words that come out of someone else's
[8:56]mouth. You can say horrible things. You can say you can lie. You can, and this does happen. I've
[9:01]had a few readers say, is this really happened? I say, I toned it down. The crap that I heard is so
[9:07]much crazier than this. And especially when it comes to politicians, you know, I hate to say this,
[9:13]but a lot of these books that seemed like someone took a year and, you know, went to their garden
[9:17]and wrote it. We're not written by them. And that's all I will say about that. But it's fascinating
[9:22]to me the kind of hidden economy of that and the, and just the emotional dynamics that go into it.
[9:30]Yeah. I mean, you took the second part of your question that I missed.
[9:33]I well, no, you covered it all because I was wondering about like if you did research, if you
[9:37]you had ghost written, you were very clip, you know, sparse in that. Which is fine. That's totally cool.
[9:43]Wait, let's go back to editing the short story series. So this year you're doing it with
[9:47]Curtis didn't felt. Yes. Tell me, tell me about like, give me a few past guest editors and what
[9:53]it's been like for you. Or having to pay, I mean, that's a powerful position, having to get
[9:57]getting to select the story.
[10:00]It is. So Curtis is amazing, as you would think.
[10:02]She's so down to earth and smart.
[10:04]I mean, she's deceptively smart.
[10:06]She cut, and also kind of a badass.
[10:09]You never know who's gonna be a little waffily
[10:11]and a little more neurotic and more decisive.
[10:13]She knew exactly what you want.
[10:15]She ran the show in a way that I was 100% comfortable with.
[10:19]I feel like we could be best friends in another life.
[10:22]She's just amazing.
[10:24]And so many ways.
[10:25]Funny, smart.
[10:26]She picked great stories.
[10:28]That book will, it got bumped a little bit out in November.
[10:30]Usually it's out in October.
[10:32]The person before that was Roxanne Gay.
[10:34]Also, hugely badass,
[10:36]to fit in a decisive, wonderful and so many ways.
[10:40]And really, I just think it's just amazing
[10:43]to get to watch these people work and think.
[10:45]It's never what you think it's gonna be.
[10:47]The people, you know, you think that people are gonna be drawn
[10:49]to the writing that's like they're writing and they're not.
[10:52]You know, everyone kind of has a little bit of an agenda,
[10:55]which is a good thing.
[10:56]I try to, you know, the most important thing is the writing good.
[11:00]But you have, if you have, you know,
[11:02]you are sort of thinking it's nice
[11:03]to give some new writers exposure.
[11:05]It's nice to get some smaller magazines out there.
[11:08]Again, first and foremost is the writing,
[11:11]the best or whatever someone thinks is the best or good
[11:14]can be considered good.
[11:16]Other people I've worked with who came before that Anthony
[11:19]Dore was great before that was Meg Wallitzer, I think.
[11:23]I mean, I've been incredibly lucky.
[11:26]It's been a weird shifting time out there and impacts people.
[11:29]So, you know, I've worked with Meg during the election.
[11:33]I worked with Tony Dore right after that.
[11:36]Everyone felt a little shaky around that.
[11:38]And sort of like, does this matter?
[11:40]Does literary short fiction matter?
[11:42]It is, I mean, I'm gonna be really honest.
[11:44]I would love to say literary short fiction
[11:47]can change the world, but our world is messed up right now.
[11:50]You know, I do it, I love it.
[11:52]I have, there's moments of connection.
[11:54]This is what matters.
[11:55]There's pieces of it that really matter,
[11:57]but it's hard on a day-to-day basis,
[11:59]as I'm sure it is for a lot of people working out there,
[12:01]to feel like your little tiny spot on this crazy planet
[12:05]is really doing a lot.
[12:06]So, that's so sad.
[12:08]I guess, let's bring it up.
[12:11]Let's bring it up.
[12:12]Okay, actually, I think that's something I liked
[12:14]where we were saying before about the power
[12:16]of how a story can connect and make one like that.
[12:19]Let's go back to that,
[12:20]because otherwise it's too depressing.
[12:22]I think short, whatever it is, is essential, right?
[12:26]I mean, whether it's short or long
[12:28]or whatever, obviously, you know, one story
[12:31]is not gonna change everything,
[12:33]but I think that giving right now, in particular,
[12:36]like so many different viewpoints
[12:38]is what we all can really use.
[12:40]And so now I'm gonna cuddly,
[12:41]I'm gonna contradict myself and say,
[12:43]here are some stories that did do something
[12:45]to change the conversation at person in New Yorker,
[12:49]which was not in my book,
[12:50]but really changed, I don't know if people read it,
[12:52]but changed the conversation around consent, I think,
[12:55]and dating.
[12:56]That, you don't know what's gonna shoot out there.
[12:59]There was a story called The Feminist
[13:01]that really kind of got into,
[13:03]whoa, if it's way into the conversation online,
[13:05]which was amazing,
[13:06]I think and got at some nuance of the male's point of view.
[13:10]So I think on a literal level, yes,
[13:12]I take back everything I said.
[13:14]I think, I think,
[13:15]wrote back Mountain did a lot for getting people more comfortable
[13:18]with gay relationships, those who weren't,
[13:20]were seeing it and understanding it.
[13:22]So yes, here are some examples where I'm totally wrong.
[13:25]On a more general level,
[13:27]I think there's something about the act of reading
[13:29]and the act of being with someone else's words
[13:31]that's really intimate and connective and important right now.
[13:34]I spoke to a group of librarians and I said,
[13:37]even though you can't be there,
[13:39]you're some of the most important people in the world,
[13:41]just because this sort of idea of here is a place
[13:45]that's been named as a quiet place to read.
[13:49]You come in here, it's free,
[13:51]you can pick what you pick a story you want
[13:53]and you go somewhere else in your head.
[13:54]And in this day and age,
[13:56]that's kind of a radical thing.
[13:57]There's not many places like that anymore.
[13:59]We're a loud, roiling world.
[14:01]And the fact that that still exists,
[14:03]I mean, I'm like, I have shivers from women,
[14:06]but no, but I have shivers from the fact,
[14:07]you know, these things that we do, public art,
[14:10]these things where we're still trying to have joy
[14:12]are hugely important.
[14:13]So these are our buoys, right?
[14:15]These are our things that keep us saying,
[14:17]the stories being the catharsis you get
[14:20]when you read a story that you feel a part of
[14:23]that kind of sense of belonging you get
[14:25]when you read about a character that is a little bit like you
[14:28]or this sense of escape when you read a book
[14:30]that's a little bit more out there.
[14:31]And some way and you need to escape your life.
[14:33]So psychologically, yes, super important.
[14:36]You know, it's a hard time right now.
[14:38]It's a weird time to be publishing a book.
[14:40]It's just everyone's perspective is a little wobbly
[14:42]and off.
[14:43]I think there's something online called
[14:45]that, what is it?
[14:46]Corona Coaster, we're all like a little bit
[14:48]bipolarish not to be little bipolar syndrome at all,
[14:52]but it's just an emotional time.
[14:54]So it's hard to have perspective, I think, right now.
[14:57]And that's what you're hearing from me.
[14:59]I loved your essay though at the beginning
[15:01]of the coronavirus and was it lit up?
[15:04]Is that?
[15:05]Yeah, yeah.
[15:05]It had, right?
[15:06]But that was so great because even to read now
[15:08]where I'm like, oh, that was back in April.
[15:11]Things were so different.
[15:13]It's like, it was like, how long ago?
[15:15]Four months ago.
[15:17]Yes, even though things changed so quickly.
[15:20]And I don't know.
[15:21]It was just like watching you kind of process
[15:23]what life was like and like deciding
[15:25]that like you were going to grab all the rules,
[15:27]which I did many times.
[15:29]I feel like I don't know when I'm getting all the rules
[15:31]back in my house because like it's hard to read.
[15:34]Oh, I don't know.
[15:37]Are you still artists?
[15:38]It's okay.
[15:39]This is I think we all need someone to say,
[15:41]all parents need to hear this.
[15:43]It's okay.
[15:44]Your kid can watch TV all day long right now.
[15:46]We're kind of at like kind of a war
[15:48]and you just have to get through the day and love them.
[15:50]And if there's moments you can't, that's okay too.
[15:54]But I think we all need those voices right now.
[15:56]And this was the book for me.
[15:57]Even though it wasn't set during COVID
[15:59]that I wanted to write, which was to say,
[16:01]it's okay not to,
[16:03]there's a lot of pressure on parents these days
[16:06]to especially with schooling and all these issues right now
[16:09]just to hear the, you know, lower the bar,
[16:11]like put the oxygen on yourself.
[16:13]It's okay.
[16:14]It's okay to suck as a parent.
[16:16]It's okay to feed them crap for dinner.
[16:17]It's okay to order dinner more than one.
[16:19]I mean, you know, one day in a row, do it.
[16:22]If it's going to give you the sanity,
[16:23]it's totally worth it.
[16:25]I give you permission because I am the parenting expert.
[16:28]Let me tell you.
[16:29]I'm just going to put this on repeat.
[16:30]And I'm just going to put this on repeat.
[16:31]And I'm just going to put this on repeat.
[16:32]I don't know.
[16:33]I don't know.
[16:34]I don't know.
[16:35]I don't know.
[16:36]It's okay.
[16:37]So this is what we're going to do.
[16:38]You know, here you go.
[16:39]Here's the proof right here.
[16:41]You need no one else other than me.
[16:45]Just two more seconds on the short stories
[16:47]because I find it interesting.
[16:49]How do you, like, how do you whittle down the pile and pick?
[16:53]Like, is that, I would find it so stressful.
[16:56]Like, I've always thought like, oh my gosh,
[16:57]I could never be like an admissions person
[16:59]because like the stress of having to say no
[17:01]would be like way on me forever or something.
[17:04]How, like, how, how do you do it?
[17:07]So I have been doing it for a while.
[17:09]And when I first started, it weighed on me.
[17:11]I just thought, who am I to do this, you know?
[17:13]The first year I did it, I had my twins.
[17:15]So I just felt like, you know, not at my sharpest
[17:18]also published a book.
[17:19]It was a hot mess.
[17:20]So within a few years of developed a system
[17:23]which was that I grade everything
[17:24]and I grade it ridiculously like A minus A minus B plus
[17:28]there's a whole, there's like 11 different tiers.
[17:31]And I have found that my first instinct
[17:33]pretty much always holds.
[17:34]I go back and reread everything, of course.
[17:36]But if I pull a story, if I read the whole way through
[17:39]and think about it,
[17:40]it's probably gonna get stuck in a pile.
[17:42]And then I end up picking the top.
[17:45]But I'm well aware that this is my opinion.
[17:47]I think every year I say in my forward,
[17:49]this is my opinion.
[17:49]This is Curtis Cittenfeld's opinion.
[17:52]There are other great stories.
[17:53]This is your human, we're not machines.
[17:55]And I've given up again, it's like the lesson of my book.
[17:58]I've given up trying to be perfect
[17:59]or operate as if there's some, you know,
[18:03]independent truth of what makes something good.
[18:06]There isn't, especially with art.
[18:07]We all have our, you know,
[18:09]I like crap, I like high, I like low.
[18:11]I mean, there's stuff, there's no accounting.
[18:13]I don't know why you like, you know,
[18:15]why I like certain things.
[18:16]Unfortunately, readers are stuck with my opinion
[18:19]and the opinion of someone else.
[18:20]And the fact that they rotate, I think is really useful
[18:23]because you do get a variety of opinions.
[18:25]But yeah, I'm the first door they have to go through.
[18:29]Sorry, people.
[18:31]How did you get that gig to begin with?
[18:33]So long, long ago, when I was an acquiring editor
[18:36]at Houghton, Miffland for about 10 years,
[18:39]I went, you know, assistant associate editor.
[18:42]And then this was offered to me right around the time
[18:44]I had my kids and I thought this is a great way
[18:47]to get home a little bit more
[18:48]and do something a little more part-time
[18:50]because twins, hello, and writing.
[18:52]So yeah, and it was an amazing opportunity.
[18:55]It's really wonderful.
[18:57]I get to have, I say this all the time,
[18:59]but I have like the world's best book club
[19:02]with one of the world's best readers.
[19:05]And I learn something every single year
[19:07]and I become friends with someone every single year
[19:11]and we laugh and we struggle and say,
[19:13]oh, there's always a handful of stories that, you know,
[19:17]yes or no, but oftentimes the writer,
[19:20]that writer's name gets stuck in my head for later
[19:23]and I'll say, you know, oh yeah, that person knows,
[19:26]you know, keep an eye on this person, that person.
[19:28]But I do, I feel like I've kind of had people on my radar
[19:31]and then I see them do really well
[19:32]and I'm like, oh, yeah, you know,
[19:35]I'm out there cheering.
[19:37]I know that feeling, that's how I feel about
[19:38]everyone who's been on my podcast.
[19:39]I'm like, I feel like I read the newspapers
[19:42]and like the book review and I'm like,
[19:43]oh, that's a different podcast.
[19:45]They're like, great new book and I don't,
[19:47]I feel the same way I have like a,
[19:49]I don't know, I'm like a fan after.
[19:50]So whatever you do, I'll be cheering for you.
[19:52]So thank you and I'll be cheering for you too.
[19:56]Speaking of, so what is coming next for you?
[19:58]Are you working on a new book?
[19:59]Are you?
[20:00]You know what, right now I am taking a break because everything is kind of crazy. I actually ended up writing a fictional podcast with a producer. So we're waiting to see if that gets picked up somewhere.
[20:12]You know, it could kind of double as a TV series, but I needed a break from the book thing. There's the book, the rhythm of writing a book is slow and quiet and a little tortuous as you know.
[20:23]And I needed some time to do something that felt quicker and I really like the feeling of writing a script and just writing dialogue dialogue comes really easily to me. I think it's fun. I think it's a great way to show character.
[20:35]So I wrote a season with a friend of mine, a producer and NPR producer friend of mine and that's kind of floating and we'll see, but I don't really know. I think right now feels like this.
[20:47]We're just all living in unknowns. I don't want to take on another long project. I would do short things, but right now I'm kind of like get through book publication. This is the first time I've published a book without having another one up and going and it's scary, but it feels really right for this moment.
[21:05]I've got a lot of work on my plate. I've got a vast American short stories. I'm the editorial director of a little tech firm called Plinton showed up to Plinton who does digital publishing.
[21:14]I have a consulting firm where I consult for authors and do some editing. So it's a lot. It was time to slow down a bit.
[21:21]Well, at least you know that. I feel like so often people just like keep piling on the work until one day, you know, their back breaks essentially. So you know, everybody has their limits like we only live once.
[21:32]And I didn't like you had to have another book and it works. Sounds like you're plenty of busy as it is.
[21:36]Thank you.
[21:37]Thank you, Debbie. Thanks a lot.
[21:38]Look.
[21:39]Sorry.
[21:40]No, no.
[21:41]That's a great question. You have to ask that.
[21:44]So speaking of standard questions, do you have any advice to aspiring authors? I always like to.
[21:50]Yes. Well, this is the boring one. Read, read, read, read, read, read, but also take from other places other than books. So, you know, it's not just fiction that you have to read as a fiction writer. This book in personation. I'm going to show it again.
[22:04]It had.
[22:05]I took from crazy. And my last one too. I last one had a lot of climate change. And there I love picking and choosing. You can take from menus. You can take from anything that inspires you.
[22:14]So, but I think the most important thing is this right about something you care passionately about because it translates on the page.
[22:23]There needs to be energy. You need to be engaging with something. And if you're writing a book, that's a long marriage. You got to have a big explosion at the beginning.
[22:31]So something has to be under your skin and you need to be able to live with it for years.
[22:36]So picking your subject is important. Engaging with it. Learn things that you don't know. And try to enjoy the process because as anyone who's published knows there's this fallacy that publication is going to sort of be like,
[22:50]woo, you know, the fun part of it. But the dirty little secret is that some of the most rewarding part of it is the writing is sitting in a room alone.
[22:58]And what happens is you've written this story and something happens. It's like you're, I'm going to get woo woo. But something comes through you didn't know it was coming and you're writing in the character does this.
[23:08]And it's perfectly right. And you don't know how to, you know, and those are the moments to me that are the most rewarding.
[23:14]I love meeting people. I'm very sad. I won't be able to go on a real book tour this year.
[23:19]But those moments when you're making some weird connection when your characters come to life are so, I don't know if you've found that, but it's so rewarding.
[23:29]I worked on this novel recently and I spent this whole flight from New York to LA writing and my husband picked me up for the airport and he's like, well, what do you work on?
[23:36]And I was like, well, you know, this is what happened to my characters. And then I finished talking.
[23:40]I was like, and now I don't know what she's going to do.
[23:44]I guess I have to wait and see.
[23:46]Right. It's a really big leap of faith and it's sort of like best American short stories. You have to fake it and then suddenly you start doing it.
[23:55]It's like an engine that begins to run on its own and you're just there accompanying it.
[24:00]But it's a really exciting thing. It's an exciting thing not to know it's going to happen and then to have the wrong thing happen and then to find the right thing that's going to happen.
[24:08]Yeah, especially like you, if you can actually pull it off time and time again and make it into a bug that like, you know, for me at least like was just so interesting and entertaining and like move, you know, all these different messages that were so relevant, especially as a mom.
[24:22]So anyway, it was ended up being more relevant than I even knew, but I would say a huge part of that is I have, I think the world's best editor in Cathy,
[24:30]at Algonquin also a shout out to her. She is a badass editor. She goes in with a hatchet and she says, add this, cut that. I mean, there's macro editing going on.
[24:39]So I tend to be more of a, I focus on the sentences and I'm, you know, going down a little road and she's like, nope, stick them on a different room.
[24:46]And I always say, no, you're wrong. That's awful. I can't believe that. And then 24 to 48 hours later I'm on board with her.
[24:52]And she's always right. She's really best editor.
[24:56]Yeah, I feel like most good advice at first. I'm like, no, and then I give it like a minute and it's always the right thing.
[25:03]And it's really teaches you as a person it's, it's a really big growth thing to be able to accept criticism and take it in and, you know, integrate it because sometimes it's wrong and you also need to know when to throw out what's wrong, but a lot of times it makes you better.
[25:18]Yeah, very true.
[25:20]Well, Heidi, thank you so much. This was so interesting. And I love talking to you. And now I want to talk to you about your ghost writing.
[25:30]I know there's more.
[25:33]Anyway, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talk with your publication.
[25:41]Thanks again for listening to my podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. If you liked this episode, please follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens and at Moms don't have time to read books and sign up for my mailing list at Zippy Owens.com so you can always hear about the latest things I'm up to.
[26:01]Thanks a lot.
[26:02]Thanks again to today's sponsor, BookNext. Go to BookNext.com. Zippy20 is the code to get 20% off of your middle grade subscription box.
[26:11]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morningmoon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.
[26:19]Thanks for listening. You could always email me at Zippy at Zippy Owens.com.